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Author Topic: Was Lienart Really a Mason?  (Read 18427 times)

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Offline Meg

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Re: Was Lienart Really a Mason?
« Reply #165 on: February 18, 2023, 03:40:33 PM »
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    • Quote from: de Lugo on February 18, 2023, 03:08:37 PM
    None that I am aware of.  Why do you ask?

    Because you said that no one can be 100% infallibly sure of sacramental validity. I wasn't asking about infallibility previously. Maybe you just used the term to prove a point, but the Church is precise in her language.

    I'm 100% sure that +ABL's consecration is valid. Notice that I'm not saying anything about infallibility. So does that mean that I'm going against Church teaching in your opinion? 
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    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
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    Offline de Lugo

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    Re: Was Lienart Really a Mason?
    « Reply #166 on: February 18, 2023, 04:01:38 PM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on February 18, 2023, 03:40:33 PM
    Because you said that no one can be 100% infallibly sure of sacramental validity. I wasn't asking about infallibility previously. Maybe you just used the term to prove a point, but the Church is precise in her language.

    I'm 100% sure that +ABL's consecration is valid. Notice that I'm not saying anything about infallibility. So does that mean that I'm going against Church teaching in your opinion?

    I was discussing and distinguishing between moral and infallible certitude, because some seemed to think that since I insisted that only moral certitude was available regarding sacramental validity (which is a lesser threshold than infallible certitude), I was thereby calling Msgr. Lefebvre's Orders into question.

    Nothing could be further from the case. 

    As regards your own subjective certitude, I am aware of no cause which should disturb it. 
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: Was Lienart Really a Mason?
    « Reply #167 on: February 18, 2023, 04:08:54 PM »
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    • Quote from: de Lugo on February 18, 2023, 04:01:38 PM
    I was discussing and distinguishing between moral and infallible certitude, because some seemed to think that since I insisted that only moral certitude was available regarding sacramental validity (which is a lesser threshold than infallible certitude), I was thereby calling Msgr. Lefebvre's Orders into question.

    Nothing could be further from the case. 

    As regards your own subjective certitude, I am aware of no cause which should disturb it.

    But I asked you previously if the Church has used the term 'infallible' in regards to the validity of the sacraments, and you said that you were not aware of any use of it. But you are saying now that you were distinguishing between moral and infallible certitude. So where do you get the idea that infallibility is attached to the certitude of the validity of the sacraments? Unless you think that it an error to use the term?

    Surely the Church would have distinguished between the two if she were concerned about it?
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Was Lienart Really a Mason?
    « Reply #168 on: February 18, 2023, 04:13:07 PM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on February 18, 2023, 03:40:33 PM
    Because you said that no one can be 100% infallibly sure of sacramental validity. I wasn't asking about infallibility previously. Maybe you just used the term to prove a point, but the Church is precise in her language.

    I'm 100% sure that +ABL's consecration is valid. Notice that I'm not saying anything about infallibility. So does that mean that I'm going against Church teaching in your opinion?


    I think it would be better to state that we must assume and give our 100% assent that Archbishop Lefebvre’s orders are valid, in the absence of a *positive* doubt. There is no *positive* doubt that Cardinal Lienart, whether he was a freemason or not, preformed the ordination and consecration of Archbishop Lefebvre validly. We can never be 100% sure that any sacrament is valid because there can always be a negative doubt.
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    Offline de Lugo

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    Re: Was Lienart Really a Mason?
    « Reply #169 on: February 18, 2023, 04:19:24 PM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on February 18, 2023, 04:08:54 PM
    But I asked you previously if the Church has used the term 'infallible' in regards to the validity of the sacraments, and you said that you were not aware of any use of it. But you are saying now that you were distinguishing between moral and infallible certitude. So where do you get the idea that infallibility is attached to the certitude of the validity of the sacraments? Unless you think that it an error to use the term?

    It isn't.  Only moral certitude is.
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: Was Lienart Really a Mason?
    « Reply #170 on: February 18, 2023, 04:19:43 PM »
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    • Quote from: Quo vadis Domine on February 18, 2023, 04:13:07 PM

    I think it would be better to state that we must assume and give our 100% assent that Archbishop Lefebvre’s orders are valid, in the absence of a *positive* doubt. There is no *positive* doubt that Cardinal Lienart, whether he was a freemason or not, preformed the ordination and consecration of Archbishop Lefebvre validly. We can never be 100% positive that any sacrament is valid because there can always be a negative doubt.

    Okay, so that means that we are to always have negative doubt as to the validity of all the sacraments, whether it be baptism, Holy Eucharist, extreme unction, marriage, etc.?
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Was Lienart Really a Mason?
    « Reply #171 on: February 18, 2023, 04:21:00 PM »
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    • Quote from: de Lugo on February 18, 2023, 04:19:24 PM
    It isn't.  Only moral certitude is.

    I'm not sure what you mean. Can you elaborate? 
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline de Lugo

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    Re: Was Lienart Really a Mason?
    « Reply #172 on: February 18, 2023, 04:21:12 PM »
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    • Quote from: Quo vadis Domine on February 18, 2023, 04:13:07 PM

    I think it would be better to state that we must assume and give our 100% assent that Archbishop Lefebvre’s orders are valid, in the absence of a *positive* doubt. There is no *positive* doubt that Cardinal Lienart, whether he was a freemason or not, preformed the ordination and consecration of Archbishop Lefebvre validly. We can never be 100% sure that any sacrament is valid because there can always be a negative doubt.

    I have been trying to make this clear since the OP.
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    Offline de Lugo

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    Re: Was Lienart Really a Mason?
    « Reply #173 on: February 18, 2023, 04:22:45 PM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on February 18, 2023, 04:21:00 PM
    I'm not sure what you mean. Can you elaborate?

    I don't believe any further elaborations will help you.  
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: Was Lienart Really a Mason?
    « Reply #174 on: February 18, 2023, 04:23:30 PM »
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    • Quote from: de Lugo on February 18, 2023, 04:22:45 PM
    I don't believe any further elaborations will help you. 

    Well, since you make up your own theology, that's probably true. 
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Was Lienart Really a Mason?
    « Reply #175 on: February 18, 2023, 04:25:09 PM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on February 18, 2023, 04:19:43 PM
    Okay, so that means that we are to always have negative doubt as to the validity of all the sacraments, whether it be baptism, Holy Eucharist, Extreme unction, marriage, etc.?

    A negative doubt doesn’t matter in the least with regards to validity. Nearly all negative doubts are extremely minimal and can be a source of anxiety to the scrupulous.
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    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Was Lienart Really a Mason?
    « Reply #176 on: February 18, 2023, 04:27:33 PM »
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    • Quote from: Quo vadis Domine on February 18, 2023, 04:25:09 PM
    A negative doubt doesn’t matter in the least with regards to validity. Nearly all negative doubts are extremely minimal and can be a source of anxiety to the scrupulous.

    Then what was the point of this thread? 
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline de Lugo

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    Re: Was Lienart Really a Mason?
    « Reply #177 on: February 18, 2023, 04:28:30 PM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on February 18, 2023, 04:23:30 PM
    Well, since you make up your own theology, that's probably true.

    Please cite something I've made up.
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: Was Lienart Really a Mason?
    « Reply #178 on: February 18, 2023, 04:29:07 PM »
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    • Quote from: de Lugo on February 18, 2023, 04:28:30 PM
    Please cite something I've made up.

    All of this thread. It's bizarre. 
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline de Lugo

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    Re: Was Lienart Really a Mason?
    « Reply #179 on: February 18, 2023, 04:31:04 PM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on February 18, 2023, 04:29:07 PM
    All of this thread.

    So you reject everything I've written in this thread?
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