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Offline de Lugo

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Was Lienart Really a Mason?
« on: February 15, 2023, 06:14:30 AM »
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  • The Catholic - 1982
    https://web.archive.org/web/20190920163412/http://catholicendtimetruths.com/masonic-bishops-holy-orders/27/04/2013  

    Was Abp. Lefebvre invalidly ordained by a Mason?
    Some months ago I read an article in a mimeographed publication which “proved” that Archbishop Lefebvre was — of all things — an Arian. The “evidence” for this charge was the claim that he refused to read the Last Gospel. The poor soul who wrote the article, however, seemed unaware that a bishop at Pontifical High Mass does not read the Last Gospel at the altar, but rather recites it to himself on the way out — as prescribed by the rubrics.

    Now, while one can ignore such attacks on the Archbishop’s integrity, there is one which strikes at the heart of the Society of Saint Pius X and every traditional Catholic — for it is claimed by some lay “popes” (pardon the quotation marks) that Arch­bishop Lefebvre is himself not validly ordained and consecrated. If such is true — they say — then all the priests he has ordained are also incapable of providing the sacraments, and the Society itself is without func­tion or purpose.

    It would be impossible to respond to every possible criticism and calumny, based as they are on insinuations, distortions and half-truths. But an attack on the validity of His Excellency’s ordination and consecration warrants a clear and unequivocal response.

    The latter is based on the story that Achille Cardinal Liénart, the man who ordained Archbishop Lefebvre a priest and consecrated him a bishop, was a Freemason of high rank. In respon­ding to this, we must answer three questions;

    (1) What is the evidence that Cardinal Liénart was a Freemason, and how much confidence can we place in this evidence?

    (2) If Cardinal Liénart had been a Freemason, would this have invalidated the ordination and consecration of Archbishop Lefebvre?

    (3) What was the Church’s practice in the past in the case of Holy Orders conferred by a prelate who unquestionably was a Mason?


    1. Was Cardinal Liénart a Mason?
    Obviously, this is a critical issue. If Cardinal Liénart was not a Freemason, then there would be no basis for impugning the validity of the Arch­bishop’s orders. What then is the evidence for the assertion?

    The most specific source is a book entitled Papal Infallibility (L’lnfaillibilité Pontificale) by the French writer Marquis de la Franquerie. This individual is said to be “a papal Secret Chamberlain who lives in Lucon, Vendée, France,” and “a learned historian with special knowledge in the field of penetration of the Catholic hierarchy by Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ in France.” He is said to be a traditionalist, and a friend of Archbishop Lefebevre.

    On page 80 of his book, during the course of a discussion of the modernist maneuverings in prepraration for Vatican II, the Marquis mentions, almost in passing, that Cardinal Liénart was a “luciferian” who attended “black Masses.” Toward the end of a lengthy footnote on another topic that continues onto the following page, the Marquis adds:
    “This attitude of the Cardinal could not sur­prise those who knew his membership in the Freemasonic and Luciferian lodges. This was the reason why the author of this study [i.e., the Marquis de la Franquerie] always had refused to accompany Cardinal Liénart in the official ceremonies as Secret Chamberlain.

    “The Cardinal had been initiated in a lodge in Cambrai whose Venerable was Brother Debierre. He frequented a lodge in Cambrai, three at Lille, one in Valenciennes, and two in Paris, of which one was in a special way com­posed of parliamentarians. In the year 1919, he is designated as ‘Visitor’ (18th Degree), then, in 1924, as 30th degree. The future Car­dinal met in the lodges Brother Debierre and Roger Solengro. Debierre was one of the in­formers of Cardinal Gasparri who had been initiated in America, and of Cardinal Hartmann. Archbishop of Cologne, a Rosicrucian.

    “The Cardinal belonged to the International League against Anti-Semitism, where he met up again with Marc Sangnier and Father Violet.

    “It was given to us to meet in Lourdes a former Freemason who, on July 19, 1932, had been miraculously cured of a wound suppurating on his left foot for fourteen years — a cure recognized by the Verification Bureau on July 18, 1933. This miraculously-healed gentleman, Mr. B…, told us that, at the time when he frequented a Luciferian lodge, he met there the cardinal whom he recognized and was dumbfounded.”

    Another source cited is Archbishop Lefebvre himself. In a talk given in Montreal, Canada on May 27, 1976, he stated:

    “Two months ago in Rome, the traditionalist periodical Chiesa Viva, published — I have seen it in Rome with my own eyes — on the back side of the cover, the photograph of Cardinal Liénart with all his Masonic paraphernalia, the day of the date of his in­scription in Masonry…, then the date at which he rose to the 20th, then to the 30th degree of Masonry, attached to this lodge, to that lodge, at this place, at that place. Mean­while, about two or three months after this publication was made, I heard nothing about any reaction, or any contradiction. Now, un­fortunately, I must say to you that this Cardinal Liénart is my bishop, it is he who or­dained me a priest, it is he who consecrated me a bishop. I cannot help it… Fortunately, the orders are valid… But, in spite of it, it was very painful for me to be informed of it.”

    The issue of Chiesa Viva was No. 51, March, 1976. In it there is an article entitled “Il Cardinale Achille Liénart era Massone.”

    However, the Archbishop’s memory was faulty, for the photograph involved was a picture of Cardinal Liénart in ordinary ecclesiastical attire, and below this a drawing which shows a monumental entrance door to a building around which Freemasonic sym­bols are grouped. This second picture carried the designation: “Entrance door to a Freemasonic temple.”

    The article, whose author is not named, says that the source of his information is pages 80 and 81 of Papal Infalibility, the book quoted above.

    Another Italian journal, Si Si, No, No, also informs us that Cardinal Liénart was a Freemason. Its source, however, also turns out to be the Marquis de la Franquerie’s Papal Infalibility.

    Now, gentle reader, this is the sum total of the “evidence” brought forth for Cardinal Liénart be­ing a Freemason! And it all goes back to the asser­tions of the Marquis de la Franquerie.

    It may interest the reader to learn that accor­ding to a paper called The Sword of Truth: “From an irrefutable source, [Is there any other kind?], we learned recently that John XXIII was initiated into the Knights Templar Order of Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ in 1935. Now we know why he took the name of the anti-Pope John XXIII…”

    And for those who would prefer a pre-ConciIiar Masonic Pontiff, we have it on the authority of a Brother Joseph Mc-Cabe (A History of Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ) that Pius IX was also a Freemason. According to this source Pius, “the most vitriolic critic of the Masons before Leo XIII, had himself been a Mason; and at one time the French put into circulation a portrait of him in full Masonic regalia… Dudley Wright gives in his Roman Catholicism and Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ the official proof that the charge is true. Pius was admitted to the Elerna Catena lodge at Palermo in 1839, when he was already a 46-year-old priest; and other docuмents show that as a Papal emissary in South America he was received in the lodges of Monte Video.”

    Of course, in the first case, the “irrefutable source” remains unidentified. How convenient! In the second case, we are told that “a portrait was circulated.” Lost now, perhaps? And “docuмents show” Pius was received as a Mason. And where are these docuмents? Did they go down with the Titanic?

    The Marquis provides a similar paucity of evidence — a “Mr. B…” who knew of this matter in 1932, but, despite his gratitude to the Blessed Virgin for a miraculous cure, and despite the fact that he knew Achille Liénart was teaching in the Seminary of Lille, ordaining priests and con­secrating bishops, decided not to share his precious secret. Nothing like an “irrefutable anonymous source”!

    Was “Mr. B…” afraid the Freemasons would do away with him? But then, why share it at a later date when he had no greater immunity?

    I have been told — unfortunately, not by an irrefutable source — that the docuмents showing the Cardinal’s signatures at these various lodges can be produced. Now I ask you, if one were a churchman obviously on the rise in the hierarchy and within a secret and diabolical organization, would one casually pop into the local lodge and place one’s signature on the guest book? I rather doubt it. One should have far too much respect for the Freemasonic organization than to believe that a real “agent provocateur” would be even seen in a lodge. As for “docuмentation,” in this day and age it can be easily produced by a variety of technical methods.

    What are the sources for the Marquis’ asser­tions, you may ask? Other than the anonymous “Mr. B…,” he does not give any. For his other factual claims about Masonic infiltration, the Marquis provides references in his book that can be verified; for the accusation against Cardinal Liénart, he gives no docuмentary sources at all. He just asserts something — he does not offer proof or solid evidence.

    Finally, the author, the Marquis de la Franquerie, informs us that he knew about this all for decades, and as a result would not accompany Car­dinal Liénart “in the official ceremonies as Secret Chamberlain.”

    Now, I find it extremely strange that the Marquis, who received this high papal honor of being named a Secret Chamberlain, did nothing to expose this terrible situation when he had access to Church authorities prior to Vatican II. Why did he also wait until the mid-seventies to provide the world with this informa­tion?

    It seems, then, that we cannot really take any of the evidence seriously. It is sensationalist tittle-tattle that proves nothing.

    We are therefore morally obliged to find the “defendant,” Cardinal Liénart, not guilty of the charge.


     2. What If Liénart Had Been a Mason?
    But purely for the sake of argument, let assume the claim is true.

    The question then would be: Would this affect the validity of ordinations performed by Cardinal Liénart?

    Those who have attacked the Archbishop claim it would, and they make much of the chronology of the alleged sequence of events. The sequence they give is the following:
    Cardinal Liénart: Born, 1884; ordained, 1907; became Mason, 1912; promoted to 30th degree, 1924; became bishop 1928; ordained Archbishop Lefebvre, 1929; became Car­dinal, 1930.

    Now, the question of the validity of the or­dination depends upon the usual criteria for the validity of any sacrament. The essential re­quirements are “intention, matter, form, minister, and disposition of the recipient.”

    We can presume that matter and form fulfilled the necessary re­quirements of the Church, for in such solemn and public ceremonies an error in this regard would not have escaped unnoticed.

    With regard to the minister, it is a teaching of the Church that neither faith nor the state of grace is required. Sinful, heretical, schismatic and apostate priests or bishops can still validly (though sinfully and illicit­ly) confect the sacraments, provided that they use the proper matter and form and have the necessary intention.

    The question (if Bishop Liénart had been a Mason) would NOT be whether he could have validly administered a sacrament at all, but whether in fact he did so. In other words, did he either withhold his intention, or have an in­tention contrary to that which is considered necessary?

    The obvious answer is that we do not know and cannot know — because we cannot look back into his heart in 1929. The requirement established, or rather defined, at the Council of Trent is that the minister must “intend to do what the Church does.” (Sess. 7, Can. 11)

    Is it possible for a Freemason to intend to do what the Church does? The answer is yes. It is also possible for him to withhold this intention and to have a contrary in­tention — but, then, it is possible for any priest or bishop to do the same with any sacrament.

    To backtrack a little, intention can be characterized as “external” and “internal.” Exter­nal intention is reflected in performing the rites correctly, but it does not suffice. If the minister does not have the correct internal intention, he would be acting in his own name or by his own power, rather than in Christ’s name and with Christ’s power. He would be performing a purely natural act — and not a supernatural one.

    The crux of the issue is how can we know and recognize this “internal intention” on the part of the minister?

    Pope Leo XIII spoke to this issue when discussing Anglican orders:

    “Concerning the mind or intention, insomuch as it is in itself something internal, the Church does not pass judgment; but insofar as it is externally manifested, she is bound to judge of it. Now if, in order to effect and confer a Sacrament, a person has seriously and correctly used the matter and form, he is for that very reason presumed to have intend­ed to do what the Church does. It is on this principle that the doctrine is solidly founded which holds as a true Sacrament that which is conferred by the ministry of a heretic or a non-baptized person [as in Baptism] as long as it is conferred in the Catholic rite.” (Em­phasis supplied.)

    Perhaps it would be more correct to say that the Church cannot pass judgment purely on inter­nal intentions for the simple reason that she cannot ever really know them.

    Thus, those who claim that Cardinal Liénart was a Mason and for this reason did not validly confer priestly ordination arrogate to themselves the right to do something even the Church has no power to do — pass judgment on the unexpressed intentions of the ministers of a sacra­ment.

    All this is not to say that the correct perfor­mance of the external rites, absent any intention at all, suffices for validity — indeed, this opinion was condemned by the Church.
    In the absence of external evidence which clearly shows that the intention was withheld, the Church always presumes that the minister did in fact have the intention of doing what the Church does.

    And thus we find St. Thomas Aquinas teaching that “the minister of the sacrament acts in the person of the whole Church, whose minister he is; while in the words uttered by him, the intention of the Church is expressed; and that this suffices for the validity of the sacrament, except the contrary be expressed on the part either of the minister or of the recipient of the sacrament.” (Summa, Part III, Question 64, 8 and 2).

    Now, it is not necessary for the minister of a sacrament to be either morally pure or orthodox. Augustine teaches that “the evil lives of wicked men are not prejudicial to God’s sacraments, by rendering them either invalid or less holy.” St. Thomas in discussing this states that “the ministers of the Church work instrumentally in the sacraments… Now an instrument acts not by reason of its own form, but by the power of one who moves it… The ministers of the Church do not by their own power cleanse from sin those who approach the sacraments, nor do they confer grace on them: it is Christ Who does this by His own power while He employs them [the ministers] as in­struments.” (Ibid., 6, ad 1).
    Putting this somewhat differently, the minister acts as a conduit for Christ’s grace, providing he in no way obstructs Christ and the Church’s intent by using his free will to intend a contrary purpose.

    We have also said that the minister need not be orthodox. As St. Thomas teaches:

    “Since the minister works instrumentally in the sacraments, he acts not by his own, but by God’s power. Now, just as charity belongs to a man’s own power, so also does faith. Wherefore, just as the validity of a sacrament does not require that the minister should have charity, and even sinners can confer the sacraments, so neither is it necessary that he should have faith, and even an unbeliever can confer a true sacrament, providing that the other essentials be there… Even if his faith be defective in regard to the very sacrament that he confers, although he believes that no inward effect is caused by the thing done outwardly, yet he does know that the Church intends to confer a sacra­ment by thai which is outwardly done. Wherefore, his unbelief notwithstanding, he can intend to do what the Church does, albeit he esteem it to be nothing. And such an intention suffices…” (Ibid., 64,9)

    While we are on St. Thomas, let us also note that illicit administering of the sacraments in no way invalidates them. He states that “if a man be suspended from the Church, or excommunicated or degraded, he does not lose the power of conferr­ing sacraments, but the permission to use this power. Wherefore he does indeed confer the sacra­ment, but he sins in so doing.” (Ibid., 64; 10 and 3)

    The recipient would of course sin in knowingly receiving the sacrament from such an individual “unless ignorance excuses him.” And thus, as Pope Paschal II states, “instructed by the examples of our Fathers, who at diverse times have received Novatians, Donatists, and other heretics into their order [i.e., acknowledged the validity of the orders received in their heretical sects]: we receive in the episcopal office [i.e., as true bishops] the bishops of the aforesaid kingdom who were ordained in schism. . .”

    The Church, of course, presumes the normal intention on even the part of heretics — that is, the intention to do what the Church does.

    And finally it should be noted that none of the lay “popes” who have spread the Masonry allegations have ever been able to cite even one Catholic theologian — still less, a real pope — who taught that Holy Orders conferred by a Mason must be presumed invalid on grounds of lack of proper intention.


     3. A Historical Precedent: Bishop Talleyrand
    Obviously, if the Church did not presume in the absence of contrary evidence that the minister always intends to do what the Church does, we would be in a serious state. We would always have to question the minister as to his intent, and still have co have faith in his word. How would any of us ever know the reality of any of the sacraments? Indeed, how would we even know if we were Chris­tian? Perhaps the baptizing minister was a secret Freemason who withheld his intention!

    Let us look then to discover a historical precedent about a Masonic bishop. According to the Catholic Encyclopedia (1908), Charles Maurice de Talleyrand-Périgord was born of good paren­tage in 1754, and owing to an accident that rendered him lame, was forced by his parents into the priesthood. “He went to St. Suplice and, against his inclination became an abbé [priest]. He then read the ‘most revolutionary books,’ and at length, giving up his priestly life, plunged in the licentiousness of the period…”

    Despite this, he was given several wealthy benefices, including that of St. Denis, and continued to rise in the Church as well as in the government. Finally, through the in­sistence of his father (to whom the king was greatly indebted) he obtained the episcopal see of Autun and was consecrated Bishop on January 16, 1789. He continued to live his profligate life in Paris, and only went to Autun when he saw this as a means of being elected member of the États-Generaux — the French National Assembly which would eventually foment the Revolution.

    According to Talleyrand’s biographer, Louis Madelin of the Academie Française (New York: Roy 1948), “He belonged to all the great masonic lodges, from the Philalatheans, whence sprang the Jacobin Club, to the Re-united Friends, where the great ringleaders of the future were already prepar­ing the Revolution.” He also had close ties to the Duc d’Orléans, the future Philippe Egalité, and one of the principal leaders of the French Revolu­tion. As a member of the Constitutional Commit­tee, he took part in the “Declaration of the Rights of Man.” He was one of the most influential members of the Assembly, and was the individual most directly responsible for the confiscation of Church property; the taking over of education by the state, and the establishment of the “Constitu­tional Church,” a schismatic body set up by the Masons to serve the ends of the state.

    Talleyrand publicly said sacrilegious Masses. After most of the tradi­tional and loyal bishops fled France, it fell his lot to consecrate (together with the infamous apostate, Bishop Gobel) all the “Constitutional Bishops” that replaced them. After this act, he took off his ecclesiastical attire and never wore it again. His own priests, the Cathedral Chapter of Autun, described him as deserving “infamy in this world and damnation in the next.”

    One must not imagine that Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ was an unknown entity in those days. Popes Clement XII (1730-1740), Benedict XIV (1740-1758) and Clemenr XIII (1758-1769) had already clearly con­demned it.

    Talleyrand was excommunicated by a pontifical brief in April, 1791. This excommunica­tion was later lifted, on condition that he lived a life of celibacy. He promptly married, then exiled his wife to England and formed a series of “alliances” from which several illegitimate off­spring resulted. He was a bad priest, an apostate bishop, a Freemason, a Christian barred from communion and an individual who for forty-nine years could not receive the sacraments of the Church.

    Now, the point of all this is that most of the bishops of France derived their Apostolic Succes­sion through Talleyrand and his two associates (also supporters of the Revolution). Not only were all Talleyrand’s episcopal consecrations recogniz­ed, but when the Concordat between Napoleon and Pope Pius VII was signed, the exiled bishops who had remained loyal to Pope Pius VI were asked to resign.

    Rome allowed the bishops of the Constitu­tional Church, all of whom derived their orders from the Mason Talleyrand, to remain in their positions, as diocesan ordinaries. The fact that Talleyrand was a Mason and a revolutionary made no difference.
    * * * * *
    To sum up what we have said:
    (1) There is no credible evidence which shows that Cardinal Liénart was a Freemason.
    (2) If Cardinal Liénart had been a Freemason, it would not have invalidated the sacraments he conferred.
    (3) The case of Talleyrand demonstrates in the practical order that the Church does not regard or­dinations performed by Freemasons as invalid.
    So much then, for tall tales of Masonry!
    (The Roman Catholic, June 1982)


    Noblesse oblige.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Was Lienart Really a Mason?
    « Reply #1 on: February 15, 2023, 08:48:44 AM »
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  • Was Lienart a Mason?  Possibly.  Probably?

    Would this effect the validity of his ordinations/consecrations?  No.

    When Lienart performed the Catholic Rite of Ordination / Consecration, he was intending to DO what the Church DOES.

    Unfortunately, because SSPX have played the game for some years about doing conditional ordinations due to possible issues with "intention," they've had to exaggerate the role of intention in the validity of Sacraments into an internal forum consideration.

    I make this analogy.  I hold a loaded gun up to someone's head and pull the trigger.  But in my mind I'm saying, "I do not wish that he die.  I do not wish that he die."  Did I intend to kill the individual?  Of course I did, this internal mental gymnastics notwithstanding. I intended to DO what would cause the death of the individual.

    So a hypothetical Mason Lienart could sit there the entire time thinking, "I do not wish to ordain.  I do not wish to ordain."  But if he performs the Rite he intends to do the ordination, and therefore to ordain.

    Nor is this contrary to the notion of "internal" intention.  Intending to DO something also must be internal, and it is because the ordaining bishop has to think of what he's doing and intend to do it, i.e. to impose the hands, say the words, etc.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Was Lienart Really a Mason?
    « Reply #2 on: February 15, 2023, 08:51:55 AM »
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  • * * * * *
    To sum up what we have said:
    (1) There is no credible evidence which shows that Cardinal Liénart was a Freemason.
    (2) If Cardinal Liénart had been a Freemason, it would not have invalidated the sacraments he conferred.
    (3) The case of Talleyrand demonstrates in the practical order that the Church does not regard or­dinations performed by Freemasons as invalid.
    So much then, for tall tales of Masonry!
    (The Roman Catholic, June 1982)

    See, I think that article should have ignored point #1 entirely.  By spending a lot of time on it, it's giving the impression that it's important, and leaving it open to later having more weight than it should ... if some evidence later came out proving that he had been a Mason.

    #2 is the most important point, and the question of whether Lienart was or was not a Mason should have been given little or no consideration.

    Quote
    1. Was Cardinal Liénart a Mason?

    Obviously, this is a critical issue.

    No, it's NOT a critical issue.  Why do they say it's a "critical issue" after demonstrating point #2 above?

    Offline de Lugo

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    Re: Was Lienart Really a Mason?
    « Reply #3 on: February 15, 2023, 09:54:10 AM »
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  • So a hypothetical Mason Lienart could sit there the entire time thinking, "I do not wish to ordain.  I do not wish to ordain."  But if he performs the Rite he intends to do the ordination, and therefore to ordain.

    This is condemned:

    “A Baptism is valid when conferred by a minister who observes every external rite and form of baptizing, but within in his heart, resolves to himself not to intend what the Church does.” - CONDEMNED,  (Pope Alexander VIII, Decree of the Holy Office, December 7, 1690, Errors of the Jansenists, Denz., 1318).

    Despite this condemnation, Catholics should not be troubled, because as l' Abbe Hunter explains in his manual:

    "It is objected to this doctrine that it makes the validity of every Sacrament depend upon a purely internal fact, namely, the intention of the minister who may perform the outward acts with the interior intention of not acting as deputy of Christ. We admit the consequence, but deny that there is anything in it out of harmony with other parts of revealed doctrine; it is perfectly true that, without special revelation, no one can have absolute certainty that he has received a Sacrament or that he is in the state of grace (n. 639): but his assurance on the subject may approach so nearly to this absolute certainty as to make any misgiving on the subject foolish and vain; and it must always be remembered that God, who has bound Himself to give grace when the Sacraments are duly received, has nowhere limited His power, disabling Himself from giving grace apart from these holy rites. One, therefore, who acts in good faith may hope that no disaster will befall himself or those dear to him through the deceit of a wicked minister. (See n. 696.)"
    Noblesse oblige.

    Offline Viva Cristo Rey

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    Re: Was Lienart Really a Mason?
    « Reply #4 on: February 15, 2023, 12:44:47 PM »
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  • Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ tells us how they are going corrupt the church.  The damage has been done. 

    We can’t dwell on the negative past.  That is of evil.  We need to focus on saving souls especially ours.   
    May God bless you and keep you


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Was Lienart Really a Mason?
    « Reply #5 on: February 15, 2023, 05:02:59 PM »
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  • This is condemned:

    “A Baptism is valid when conferred by a minister who observes every external rite and form of baptizing, but within in his heart, resolves to himself not to intend what the Church does.” - CONDEMNED,  (Pope Alexander VIII, Decree of the Holy Office, December 7, 1690, Errors of the Jansenists, Denz., 1318).

    No, it's not condemned.  Read it again.  Intend what the Church DOES, not intend what the Church intends.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Was Lienart Really a Mason?
    « Reply #6 on: February 15, 2023, 05:10:49 PM »
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  • Despite this condemnation, Catholics should not be troubled, because as l' Abbe Hunter explains in his manual:

    Garbage.  If interpreted the way you interpret it, Catholics absolutely SHOULD be troubled, since they have no idea at all whether +Lefebvre and all the SSPX priests and Trad priests who descend from him are valid, none whatsoever.  Church was absolutely infested with Communist agents and Masons in the 1960s and the odds are extremely high that many of them tried this stunt.  And there are simply too many details regarding +Lienart to dismiss out of hand.  This was no generic accusation, but the names and numbers of lodges he was associated with are cited.

    Intention must be internal, but it is to do what the Church does, not to intend what the Church intends.  There could be a priest up there who doesn't believe in the Real Presence and doesn't intend what the Church intends.  But he shows up in church, as assigned, and performs the Rite of Mass as prescribed by the Church.  He intends to perform said Rite.  HIs Mass is valid.  Where internal intention is lacking would be in situations where 1) a priest is not of sound mind, 2) a priest doing something in jest, 3) a priest doing something to practice / rehearse the Rite ... all of which can be discerned from the external forum.  But if a priest shows up for the 8:00 AM Mass scheduled at a Catholic church and peforms the Rite that's intended to be the Mass, he could sit there with all his might, gritting his teeth "intending" to do the exact opposite of what the Church does, but it would make no difference, and his Mass would be valid.

    Offline JoeZ

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    Re: Was Lienart Really a Mason?
    « Reply #7 on: February 15, 2023, 06:55:03 PM »
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  • Garbage.  If interpreted the way you interpret it, Catholics absolutely SHOULD be troubled, since they have no idea at all whether +Lefebvre and all the SSPX priests and Trad priests who descend from him are valid, none whatsoever.  Church was absolutely infested with Communist agents and Masons in the 1960s and the odds are extremely high that many of them tried this stunt.  And there are simply too many details regarding +Lienart to dismiss out of hand.  This was no generic accusation, but the names and numbers of lodges he was associated with are cited.

    Intention must be internal, but it is to do what the Church does, not to intend what the Church intends.  There could be a priest up there who doesn't believe in the Real Presence and doesn't intend what the Church intends.  But he shows up in church, as assigned, and performs the Rite of Mass as prescribed by the Church.  He intends to perform said Rite.  HIs Mass is valid.  Where internal intention is lacking would be in situations where 1) a priest is not of sound mind, 2) a priest doing something in jest, 3) a priest doing something to practice / rehearse the Rite ... all of which can be discerned from the external forum.  But if a priest shows up for the 8:00 AM Mass scheduled at a Catholic church and peforms the Rite that's intended to be the Mass, he could sit there with all his might, gritting his teeth "intending" to do the exact opposite of what the Church does, but it would make no difference, and his Mass would be valid.
    Alright, a clarification is needed here for me to understand.

    When Pope Alexander says "Baptism is valid when conferred by a minister who observes all the external rite and form of baptizing" we see that the minister intended to do as the Church does because he in fact did as the Church does and performed the rite with proper form, but then something in the minister's interior forum blocks the sacrament "but within his heart resolves, I do not intend what the Church does" (and of course we know the sacrament was blocked because believing the validity of it is of course condemned).

    So, does performing the externals of the rite prove the proper intention to do as the Church does? It would seem not because in his heart the minister blocks the sacrament. Maybe the English in the Denzinger isn't giving the correct sense to what is truly written.
    Pray the Holy Rosary.


    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: Was Lienart Really a Mason?
    « Reply #8 on: February 16, 2023, 05:13:02 AM »
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  • I find this teaching of St Robert Bellarmine on secret infidels, in De Ecclesia, very interesting: Ultimately we cannot be absolutely certain of the orders of almost any bishop:

    "Two things can be considered on Bishops: Firstly, that they hold the place of Christ so for that reason we owe obedience to them... Secondly, that they might have the power of Order and Jurisdiction. If it is considered in the first mode, we are certain with an infallible certitude that these, whom we see, are our true Bishops and Pastors. For this, neither faith, nor the character of order, nor even legitimate election is required, but only that they be held for such by the Church... Now if this is considered in the second manner, we do not have any but a moral certitude that these will truly be Bishops, although it is certain with infallible certitude that at least some are true, otherwise God will have deserted the Church..."

    But surely, we should not be unduly troubled about these things. The Good Lord desires our salvation infinitely more than we do ourselves and He will not laugh in our face on the day of Judgement because we confessed to an invalid priest, for example... unless such was clearly obvious and we should have known better. 


    Offline de Lugo

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    Re: Was Lienart Really a Mason?
    « Reply #9 on: February 16, 2023, 05:13:39 AM »
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  • So, does performing the externals of the rite prove the proper intention to do as the Church does?

    No.

    It suffices for the presumption of a proper intention, but does not heal an invalidating covert contrary intention.

    Were this not the case, intention need not be a criterion for a valid sacrament.

    L' Abbe Hunter explains:

    "The reply just given to the difficulty about the uncertainty of the Sacraments seems perfectly sufficient; but there have been theologians who, not being content with it, maintain the possibility of having absolute certainty that a Sacrament has been validly administered; and thus making some approach to the Lutheran assurance of the presence of habitual grace in the soul. This doctrine attracted attention at the time of the Council of Trent, being put forward by the Italian theologian, Ambrose Catharinus, who avowed that he was influenced by a desire to secure peace of mind to the faithful but one who feels a wish that a doctrine should be true may be suspected of not being a fair judge of the arguments bearing on it. The decree of the Council left the question open, and it is still debated, although the followers of Catharinus grow fewer in number and authority as time goes on.

    “In the view of Catharinus, no other intention is required in the minister of a Sacrament than that he should deliberately go through the outward acts required by the rite; and this is held to be sufficient, though the minister have no interior intention of doing what the Church does, and even if he interiorly form an explicit act of not intending so to do. But this theory fails to secure the absolute certainty that the Sacrament is valid, for it is easy for the minister to change the words of the form (n. 680) in an essential particular without this fraud being detected.
    “The theory, therefore, does not possess that advantage which was its chief recommendation, and it is open to grievous theological difficulties. The man who does not at least implicitly intend to act as agent for Christ cannot do so, for the character of his action depends on his intention; the words of the Council are most naturally applicable to the internal intention, and it is certain that this suffices; for if the matter and form of Baptism be duly applied to a child by one who interiorly intends to perform the Christian rite, the Baptism is valid, even though the minister pretend exteriorly that he went through the ceremony in mockery : and lastly, if the priest saying Mass intends to consecrate ten Hosts and no more, but has eleven before him, then not one is validly consecrated, as is declared in the rubrics of the Missal. (De Defectu Intentionis.) For these and other similar reasons, most modern theologians reject the doctrine that the exterior intention is sufficient, but they confess that it has not been condemned by the authority of the Church."

    L' Abbe Hunter then proceeds to cite the same quotation of Pope Alexander VIII which I supplied above.

    Essentially, M. Ladislaus has rejected the need of interior intention, and espoused the views of Catharinus, apparently from a psychological need for infallible certitude in the matter of sacramental validity (which is imposssible to ascertain).
    Noblesse oblige.

    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: Was Lienart Really a Mason?
    « Reply #10 on: February 16, 2023, 05:33:24 AM »
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  • No.

    It suffices for the presumption of a proper intention, but does not heal an invalidating covert contrary intention.

    Were this not the case, intention need not be a criterion for a valid sacrament.

    L' Abbe Hunter explains:

    "The reply just given to the difficulty about the uncertainty of the Sacraments seems perfectly sufficient; but there have been theologians who, not being content with it, maintain the possibility of having absolute certainty that a Sacrament has been validly administered; and thus making some approach to the Lutheran assurance of the presence of habitual grace in the soul. This doctrine attracted attention at the time of the Council of Trent, being put forward by the Italian theologian, Ambrose Catharinus, who avowed that he was influenced by a desire to secure peace of mind to the faithful but one who feels a wish that a doctrine should be true may be suspected of not being a fair judge of the arguments bearing on it. The decree of the Council left the question open, and it is still debated, although the followers of Catharinus grow fewer in number and authority as time goes on.

    “In the view of Catharinus, no other intention is required in the minister of a Sacrament than that he should deliberately go through the outward acts required by the rite; and this is held to be sufficient, though the minister have no interior intention of doing what the Church does, and even if he interiorly form an explicit act of not intending so to do. But this theory fails to secure the absolute certainty that the Sacrament is valid, for it is easy for the minister to change the words of the form (n. 680) in an essential particular without this fraud being detected.
    “The theory, therefore, does not possess that advantage which was its chief recommendation, and it is open to grievous theological difficulties. The man who does not at least implicitly intend to act as agent for Christ cannot do so, for the character of his action depends on his intention; the words of the Council are most naturally applicable to the internal intention, and it is certain that this suffices; for if the matter and form of Baptism be duly applied to a child by one who interiorly intends to perform the Christian rite, the Baptism is valid, even though the minister pretend exteriorly that he went through the ceremony in mockery : and lastly, if the priest saying Mass intends to consecrate ten Hosts and no more, but has eleven before him, then not one is validly consecrated, as is declared in the rubrics of the Missal. (De Defectu Intentionis.) For these and other similar reasons, most modern theologians reject the doctrine that the exterior intention is sufficient, but they confess that it has not been condemned by the authority of the Church."

    L' Abbe Hunter then proceeds to cite the same quotation of Pope Alexander VIII which I supplied above.

    Essentially, M. Ladislaus has rejected the need of interior intention, and espoused the views of Catharinus, apparently from a psychological need for infallible certitude in the matter of sacramental validity (which is imposssible to ascertain).
    Thanks de Lugo, that is very interesting.
    I must confess, I had the same understanding as Ladislaus on this issue.
    Theology is complicated... or rather, not always clearly defined by the Church.






    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: Was Lienart Really a Mason?
    « Reply #11 on: February 16, 2023, 05:38:41 AM »
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  • But surely, we should not be unduly troubled about these things. The Good Lord desires our salvation infinitely more than we do ourselves and He will not laugh in our face on the day of Judgement because we confessed to an invalid priest, for example... unless such was clearly obvious and we should have known better.
    Didn't mean to give scandal, had better clarify that:
    Unless there is clear doubt, for example many if not most new rite ordinations, Fr Pfeiffer ordinations, etc... you know what I mean...

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Was Lienart Really a Mason?
    « Reply #12 on: February 16, 2023, 06:00:58 AM »
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  • No.

    It suffices for the presumption of a proper intention, but does not heal an invalidating covert contrary intention.

    False.  Defect of intention that would validate is discernable in the external forum.  If the priest intends to do what the Church does, then the Church's intention for the action supplies the necessary intention for the end of the action.

    Again, the minister has to internally intend to do what the Church does, and not intend what the Church intends.  This is why atheists can validly confect the Sacraments.  And there's no difference between "contrary intention" and "lack of intention".  I've given counter examples of when lack of internal intention invalidates ... such as if someone were performing the rite in jest, or someone who's practicing, or someone who's insane and doesn't know what they're doing.  If some atheists started mocking the Sacrament of Baptism and were saying the words and pouring water on each other, that would not be valid, because they're not intending to DO what the Church DOES, but are simply mocking the Sacrament.  But if some atheist was asked by a dying catechumen to baptize him, and the atheist did it with the internal intention of, "I'm going to do this thing Catholics do to console this guy, but it's a bunch of garbage, and there's no way that I intend to put this man's non-existent soul into a state of grace like they claim." ... that would still valid on account of that part of the intention where he says, "I'm going to do this thing that Catholics do ..." period.  By intending to DO what the Church DOES, the Church intention for what is being DONE validates the Sacrament, even the atheist is blasphemously deriding the Sacrament even while pronouncing the words.  Same holds of a hypothetical +Lienart ordination.  This is similar to the analogy I presented earlier, where you hold a loaded gun up to someone's head and pull the trigger, while internally saying, "I do not wish/intend for this person to die."  You most certainly intended it since you intended and willed the cause, and therefore you intended the effect.  +Lienart's intention of "I'm going to perform this Catholic ordination Rite" trumps anything else in his mind along the lines of "I don't intend to ordain.  I don't intend to ordain."  Maybe you don't, but you intend to do what the Church does by performing the Rite the Church has as prescribed by the books, and that intention suffices and trumps any other contrary mental intention you have.

    What's meant by the fact of simply DOing the ritual doesn't suffice (as per the one Holy Office thing you cited) is scenarios like I cited earlier where the atheists are mocking the Sacrament.  They externally intend to perform the rites, i.e. pour water on each other's heads and say the words, "I baptize you ..."  but internally they're clearly not intending to DO what the Church does, but are intending to mock what the Church does.  But that kind of thing can be discerned in the external forum.

    Father Hunter is completely wrong and mis-analyzes what is being said by the Holy Office.  This is all in line with the increasing trend to subjectivize everything and make it part of the internal forum.  Sacraments and their validity are not determined in the internal forum but the external forum.

    Stop posturing as an expert and spreading nonsense when you recently demonstrated that you don't even know that infertility does not invalidate marriage.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Was Lienart Really a Mason?
    « Reply #13 on: February 16, 2023, 06:26:14 AM »
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  • Thanks de Lugo, that is very interesting.
    I must confess, I had the same understanding as Ladislaus on this issue.
    Theology is complicated... or rather, not always clearly defined by the Church.

    Your prior understanding is in fact the correct one.  What's meant by invalidating internal intention are scenarios like I presented where atheists are pouring water on each other saying the words, "I baptize thee ...".  While outwardly they appear to be performing the ritual, the externals, internally they are clearly NOT intending to DO what the Church DOES.  That's a classic examples of invalidating internal intention while performing the external Rite.  When +Lienart puts on his vestments, goes to the Church, pulls out the book that says, "Catholic Ritual to Ordain Priests," and then goes through the 3-hour ceremony as prescribed ... he's clearly intending to DO precisely what the Church does, even if internally he has no intention to ordain or the contrary intention ("I do not wish to ordain.")  BTW, there's no difference between no intention and contrary intention.  Both constitute a lack of necessary intention.  This would render it impossible for atheists to baptized, but it's known that atheists can baptized.  If an atheist nurse at a hospital is asked to baptize, and she does it only to make the person feel better, but inside is thinking "What a bunch of hogwash.  This doesn't do anything." (which is inevitable for an atheist), according to the distorted view presented by De Lugo, it would be impossible for an atheist to validly baptize.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Was Lienart Really a Mason?
    « Reply #14 on: February 16, 2023, 06:31:40 AM »
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  • Essentially, M. Ladislaus has rejected the need of interior intention, and espoused the views of Catharinus, apparently from a psychological need for infallible certitude in the matter of sacramental validity (which is imposssible to ascertain).

    Essentially you don't know what you're talking about ... the same guy who thought infertility invalidated marriage.  Nobody's saying there's infallible or absolute certitude regarding the Sacraments.  It can only be moral certitude.  For all I know, the priest who baptized me botched the words of Baptism.  Maybe he was half asleep and accidentally spit out the words, "Ego te absolvo ..." instead of "Ego te baptizo ..." (because the former has become automatic, as he hears dozens of confessions each week.  In that case, it was not God's will that I be validly baptized.  Similarly, He could have willed that I be born in the jungle of African to animists and had never been baptized.

    So you need to stop slanderously imputing motives in the internal forum such as "a psychological need for infallible certitude".  I'm not as simple-minded as you claim, nor am I motivated by emotional considerations, but by principles.  Whenever I go to Mass and can't hear the priest saying the words of consecration, I don't have absolute certitude that he didn't mess them up.  What's at issue here is that the Sacraments and their validity are knowable in the external forum and don't rely upon some unknowable secret intention.  What I object to is this growing trend ... since about the "Renaissance" toward subjectivizing everything into the internal forum, the ultimate culmination of which can be seen in Jorge's Amoris Laetitia, where the internal forum trumps the external and can render non-sinful actions that are objectively sinful.

    Otherwise, you're just spreading FUD without justification.  It's not impossible, and seems probable, that +Lienart was in fact a Mason.  Church was absolutely bursting at the seems with infiltrator Communists and Masons by the 1950s.  And if he had been some infiltrator Mason, it's likely that he had an interior contrary intention when ordaining.  After all, that's the very reason they infiltrated in the first place, to destroy the Church.  And then even if +Lienart wasn't one, then in any given diocese around the world, there were likely such Masons and Communists who ordained priests for decades, and so there would have been dioceses where there were no valid Sacraments (outside those that didn't require a validly-ordained priest for validity).  After centuries of such activity, according to your principles, it would be highly likely that most episcopal lines are currently vitiated and "secretly invalid".  Yes, episcopal consecrations generally involve two co-consecrators, but there would remain the problem of whether they had been valid priests in the first place, and the Roman Rite of episcopal consecration is not valid is performed on a man who isn't a priest.