Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: Was Lienart Really a Mason?  (Read 18517 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Pax Vobis

  • Supporter
  • *****
  • Posts: 12017
  • Reputation: +7549/-2274
  • Gender: Male
Re: Was Lienart Really a Mason?
« Reply #210 on: February 20, 2023, 11:28:51 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • So then the question is, how do you separate the intent from the act?  That is, "I do not intend to do what the Church does (provide the sacrament)...but I still do what the Church does (say the sacramental form with proper matter)."   

    What is an example of a priest who does NOT intend to do what the Church does, but still does it?  I'm still not grasping the anathema of Alexander vs the very "low bar" of sacramental intent.

    Offline Mithrandylan

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 4578
    • Reputation: +5299/-450
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Was Lienart Really a Mason?
    « Reply #211 on: February 20, 2023, 11:42:01 AM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • So then the question is, how do you separate the intent from the act?  That is, "I do not intend to do what the Church does (provide the sacrament)...but I still do what the Church does (say the sacramental form with proper matter)." 

    What is an example of a priest who does NOT intend to do what the Church does, but still does it?  I'm still not grasping the anathema of Alexander vs the very "low bar" of sacramental intent.
    .
    Someone who simulates a sacrament uses the right matter and form while interiorly withholding, refusing, or otherwise failing to intend to do what the Church does. 
    .
    There are few to no normal situations under which this would occur. But a prelate who is sleep-walking would definitely lack the requisite intention. Or, suppose a bishop was held at gunpoint to ordain a man (whom he was known to not want to ordain) . The bishop might interiorly and explicitly, in his mind, will to stimulate the sacrament. I think if I saw a sacrament administered under duress I would hold it doubtful. 
    .
    There is no reason to run around doubting sacramental intention. De Lugo and Cupertino have never suggested otherwise in their excellent posts here. 
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).


    Offline Pax Vobis

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 12017
    • Reputation: +7549/-2274
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Was Lienart Really a Mason?
    « Reply #212 on: February 20, 2023, 11:46:20 AM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • Mith, based on your definitions, then how would you answer De Lugo's question that he's posted 8x?  I think it's too general to answer.

    Offline Mithrandylan

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 4578
    • Reputation: +5299/-450
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Was Lienart Really a Mason?
    « Reply #213 on: February 20, 2023, 11:57:33 AM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • If I perform a sacramental rite exactly according to the rubrics, and use proper matter, but interiorly (and without any external manifestation) deliberately form a contrary intention not to do what the Church does, have I validly confected a sacrament?
    .
    The answer is no. You have not validly confected a sacrament under this description. 
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

    Offline SeanJohnson

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 15060
    • Reputation: +10006/-3162
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Was Lienart Really a Mason?
    « Reply #214 on: February 20, 2023, 12:09:13 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • .
    Someone who simulates a sacrament uses the right matter and form while interiorly withholding, refusing, or otherwise failing to intend to do what the Church does.
    .
    There are few to no normal situations under which this would occur. But a prelate who is sleep-walking would definitely lack the requisite intention. Or, suppose a bishop was held at gunpoint to ordain a man (whom he was known to not want to ordain) . The bishop might interiorly and explicitly, in his mind, will to stimulate the sacrament. I think if I saw a sacrament administered under duress I would hold it doubtful.
    .
    There is no reason to run around doubting sacramental intention. De Lugo and Cupertino have never suggested otherwise in their excellent posts here.

    Correct in all respects.

    One example of covertly withholding internal intention would be the sad case of Bishop Rifan (of Campos):

    Reports arose that he had concelebrated the new Mass, and he denied them.  Shortly thereafter, video emerged of him concelebrating.  His response was that he feigned concelebrating (ie., deliberately withheld internal intent to do what the Church does).
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline Pax Vobis

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 12017
    • Reputation: +7549/-2274
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Was Lienart Really a Mason?
    « Reply #215 on: February 20, 2023, 12:18:35 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0

  • Quote
    There are few to no normal situations under which this would occur. But a prelate who is sleep-walking would definitely lack the requisite intention. Or, suppose a bishop was held at gunpoint to ordain a man (whom he was known to not want to ordain) . The bishop might interiorly and explicitly, in his mind, will to stimulate the sacrament. I think if I saw a sacrament administered under duress I would hold it doubtful. 
    But these 2 examples have exterior manifestations, so they fail at explaining how a simple interior disposition (or lack thereof) works.



    Quote
    Reports arose that he had concelebrated the new Mass, and he denied them.  Shortly thereafter, video emerged of him concelebrating.  His response was that he feigned concelebrating (ie., deliberately withheld internal intent to do what the Church does).
    To me, if we have to accept this invalidating reason (i.e. his word alone), this opens the door to utter chaos.


    How many marriages can be annulled if one of the spouses simply has to say "I never intended to marry you 10 years ago."  BOOM, marriage invalid.  No investigation needs to (or can) happen.  Marriage is annulled immediately, based on lack of personal intention.  Yet...this is not historically or sacramentally true.

    Offline Mithrandylan

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 4578
    • Reputation: +5299/-450
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Was Lienart Really a Mason?
    « Reply #216 on: February 20, 2023, 12:24:14 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • But these 2 examples have exterior manifestations, so they fail at explaining how a simple interior disposition (or lack thereof) works.
    .
    Uh, what act LACKS external manifestation? Do you know what an act is? An act is something someone does, prodded by the will. Usually the will corresponds with the act, but theoretically it may not. 
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

    Offline Mithrandylan

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 4578
    • Reputation: +5299/-450
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Was Lienart Really a Mason?
    « Reply #217 on: February 20, 2023, 12:25:55 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • How many marriages can be annulled if one of the spouses simply has to say "I never intended to marry you 10 years ago."  BOOM, marriage invalid.  No investigation needs to (or can) happen.  Marriage is annulled immediately, based on lack of personal intention.  Yet...this is not historically or sacramentally true.
    .
    Such claims have been made, and historically/traditionally no annulment has followed, because it is extraordinarily difficult to prove that someone did not intend to do something that they did. 
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).


    Offline Pax Vobis

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 12017
    • Reputation: +7549/-2274
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Was Lienart Really a Mason?
    « Reply #218 on: February 20, 2023, 12:27:41 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • That's exactly my point.  It seems the "lack of interior intention" issue is way overblown, especially by De Lugo.

    Offline SeanJohnson

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 15060
    • Reputation: +10006/-3162
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Was Lienart Really a Mason?
    « Reply #219 on: February 20, 2023, 12:29:15 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • To me, if we have to accept this invalidating reason (i.e. his word alone), this opens the door to utter chaos.


    How many marriages can be annulled if one of the spouses simply has to say "I never intended to marry you 10 years ago."  BOOM, marriage invalid.  No investigation needs to (or can) happen.  Marriage is annulled immediately, based on lack of personal intention.  Yet...this is not historically or sacramentally true.

    This fallacious concern has been refuted in this thread so many times (beginning on p.1, with the quote from Fr. Hunter’s manual, and several others thereafter), that it is hard to take your concern seriously.

    Only the hysterically scrupulous would be concerned.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline SeanJohnson

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 15060
    • Reputation: +10006/-3162
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Was Lienart Really a Mason?
    « Reply #220 on: February 20, 2023, 12:29:52 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • That's exactly my point.  It seems the "lack of interior intention" issue is way overblown, especially by De Lugo.

    In what respect?

    As far as I can tell, de Lugo was only insisting upon proper ministerial intent because Ladislaus was denying it (advancing instead a condemned theory of external intention precisely as it was condemned in Catharinus, and later adopted by the Jansenists).

    You are suggesting it was wrong of de Lugo to refute Ladislaus, so that error could rest peacefully on CI?
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline DecemRationis

    • Supporter
    • ****
    • Posts: 2312
    • Reputation: +867/-144
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Was Lienart Really a Mason?
    « Reply #221 on: February 20, 2023, 12:33:52 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Correct in all respects.

    One example of covertly withholding internal intention would be the sad case of Bishop Rifan (of Campos):

    Reports arose that he had concelebrated the new Mass, and he denied them.  Shortly thereafter, video emerged of him concelebrating.  His response was that he feigned concelebrating (ie., deliberately withheld internal intent to do what the Church does).


    Suppose he was the only celebrant, and that he did not violate any norms or rubrics. Are you saying that Mass would have been invalid? 
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline SeanJohnson

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 15060
    • Reputation: +10006/-3162
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Was Lienart Really a Mason?
    « Reply #222 on: February 20, 2023, 12:35:12 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Correct in all respects.

    One example of covertly withholding internal intention would be the sad case of Bishop Rifan (of Campos):

    Reports arose that he had concelebrated the new Mass, and he denied them.  Shortly thereafter, video emerged of him concelebrating.  His response was that he feigned concelebrating (ie., deliberately withheld internal intent to do what the Church does).

    I went back to look this incident up, and Rifan says he feigned the words of consecration (which means he lacked both form and intention).

    http://archives.sspx.org/sspx_and_rome/bishop_fellay_extract_bishop_rifan.htm 
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline SeanJohnson

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 15060
    • Reputation: +10006/-3162
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Was Lienart Really a Mason?
    « Reply #223 on: February 20, 2023, 12:36:52 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0

  • Suppose he was the only celebrant, and that he did not violate any norms or rubrics. Are you saying that Mass would have been invalid?

    Yes, for while he would have manifested external intention, he would have withheld the interior intention (without which there is no sacrament).
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Mithrandylan

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 4578
    • Reputation: +5299/-450
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Was Lienart Really a Mason?
    « Reply #224 on: February 20, 2023, 12:41:22 PM »
  • Thanks!3
  • No Thanks!0
  • Imagine de Lugo went on Cathinfo and said "you need oxygen to live; without it you'll die." Then a horde starts freaking out, worried they're going to step outside any second and find a world without oxygen. Then the horde comes to the realization that oxygen is plenteous and really, really difficult to run out of. And they accuse de Lugo of overstating the necessity of oxygen.

    That's this thread.

    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).