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Offline Cera

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Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
« Reply #120 on: July 17, 2019, 04:10:42 PM »
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  • More on "Fatherland"

    Fatherland brings to mind law, government and order and Germany is a country that is in favor of these things and is such often referred to as the Fatherland. Fatherland was most commonly used during the time of Nazi Germany due to the large amount of government power in the country at that time.


    https://www.reference.com/geography/germany-called-fatherland-4e867a691676fa5e
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    Offline Struthio

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    Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
    « Reply #121 on: July 17, 2019, 04:42:41 PM »
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  • Ich bin Deutscher und Deutschland ist mein Vaterland.

    I am German and Germany is the land of my fathers.


    Vaterland is the German word for Latin patria.

    In Europe, the "land of the fathers" (in various languages) in general is not confused with the coming Reign of Christ (except maybe in esoterical circles).
    It is absurd to imagine that he who is outside can command in the Church — Leo XIII., Satis Cognitum, 1896


    Offline Struthio

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    Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
    « Reply #122 on: July 17, 2019, 04:45:18 PM »
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  • P.S.: The portuguese original of Átila is "patria", the translation by Marian Horvat has "Fatherland".
    It is absurd to imagine that he who is outside can command in the Church — Leo XIII., Satis Cognitum, 1896

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
    « Reply #123 on: July 17, 2019, 05:06:08 PM »
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  • I appreciate your good explanations, Struthio. 

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
    « Reply #124 on: July 17, 2019, 05:06:55 PM »
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  • Quote
    It. Is. Not.
    Would you drink from a cup that had a dead tarantula floating in it?
    So it's not affected but it is?  Makes no sense.


    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
    « Reply #125 on: July 17, 2019, 09:38:06 PM »
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  • If Joe Blow writes an article on TIA about St Francis and the Christmas Crib, how is this affected by Plino and Atila?


    Meg (Jade), Cera (Trad granny) Struthio (Father Purdy?), in any case, all SSPX trolls posting here.

    Their only game is too defame TIA and Atila.

     Putting Purdy groupies on an open, Resistance forum is easy to do.
    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi

    Offline Struthio

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    Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
    « Reply #126 on: July 18, 2019, 07:00:21 AM »
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  • Meg (Jade), Cera (Trad granny) Struthio (Father Purdy?), in any case, all SSPX trolls posting here.

    Their only game is too defame TIA and Atila.

    Putting Purdy groupies on an open, Resistance forum is easy to do.

    My assessment is that Father Purdy and the SSPX are a covert operation of modernists/freemasons to bring trads "home to conciliar land". But, whatever one thinks about Father Purdy or the SSPX, Átila Sinke Guimarães compares himself to Moses and Plínio Corrêa de Oliveira to the divine fire and voice in the burning bush. Corresponding quotes and links to TIA can be found in this thread.

    Since Incredulous does not reject such worship of a creature, but rather attacks those who denounce it, Catholic readers will know what to think of Incredulous.
    It is absurd to imagine that he who is outside can command in the Church — Leo XIII., Satis Cognitum, 1896

    Offline Cera

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    Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
    « Reply #127 on: July 18, 2019, 03:08:06 PM »
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  • P.S.: The portuguese original of Átila is "patria", the translation by Marian Horvat has "Fatherland".
    Interesting.
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    Offline Cera

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    Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
    « Reply #128 on: July 18, 2019, 03:11:07 PM »
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  • So it's not affected but it is?  Makes no sense.
    You suggested that if a website has mostly good information, we should simply ignore the heretical aspects which are a part of it.
    Therefore I asked you if you would drink a glass of water (primarily good) if it had a tarantula (heresy) in it.
    Would you?
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    Offline Cera

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    Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
    « Reply #129 on: July 18, 2019, 03:24:48 PM »
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  • Meg (Jade), Cera (Trad granny) Struthio (Father Purdy?), in any case, all SSPX trolls posting here.

    Their only game is too defame TIA and Atila.

    Putting Purdy groupies on an open, Resistance forum is easy to do.
    It's amusing that you are the one doing exactly that of which you accuse others. You are habitually argumentative and post name-calling messages in order to disrupt this website and/or shut down anyone whose views differ from your own
    .
    According to the Urban Dictionary,
    troll is One who posts a deliberately provocative message to a newsgroup or message board with the intention of causing maximum disruption and argument.

    This is a Catholic website, moderated by Matthew, who launched this thread which is called  "Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group." Obviously the moderator of a website is the person who determines what is and what is not trolling.

    Therefore, unless you are saying that the moderator of Cath Info is trolling his own website -- your comments make no sense. Like most bullies, you attack those whom you perceive to be the weakest targets of your venom: women and a newbie. It is glaringly obvious that you are avoiding attacking the webmaster.

    Anyone with whom you disagree you label not only as a troll, but as an SSPX troll. FYI I attend a traditional Catholic chapel and don't even know any SSPX priests (not that that's a bad thing.)

    Those of us who you repeatedly attack are truth-seekers with open minds. Only an Atila groupie would see us as problematic.
    Pray for the consecration of Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary

    Offline Croixalist

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    Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
    « Reply #130 on: July 18, 2019, 08:40:38 PM »
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  • I admit, I hadn't read the entire letter. I wasn't aware Atila crossed the line from veneration to fanaticism and blasphemy. While it's hard for me to believe Plinio wasn't aware of this, suffice to say this is enough to cast a permanent pall over Mr. Guimaraes' intentions for TIA as well as what he believes TFP ought to be.    

    Atila Guimaraes https://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/Internet_Files/F142_Defense_Eng.pdf pgs 36-37
    "In the 51 years that I have roamed on this earth, I did not know a better image of God than my relationship with Dr. Plinio. Neither my admiration for Medieval Civilization, nor my enthusiasm for Chivalry or the magnificent architecture of the cathedrals, nor the elevated analysis of the organic regimes of yesteryear, nor my reverential respect for Charlemagne, nor the devotion I have to certain Saints – Michael the Archangel, Elias, Gregory VII, John the Evangelist, Augustine, Thomas Aquinas and especially Louis Grignion de Montfort, nor my complete affinity with the Holy Inquisition and the silent veneration that I pay to the mystery of the Liturgy(!) gave me anything comparable. Even the contemplation of God's plans in History, of which I am an aficionado admirer, did not bring me the broadness of panoramas and the sense of the divine that my relationship with Dr. Plinio provided.

    Not that such a relationship was perfect on my part – far be it from me to hold such pretensions – but on his part it was. And since there are certain supernatural realities that are expressed only in a relationship, the fact that they were perfect on his part and that I did not oppose great resistance to him on my part, they could flow normally, reflecting what God wanted them to reflect for me and, perhaps, also for Dr. Plinio. It was through such a relationship that I learned the true love for the Catholic Church, which he taught me to venerate with all my soul.

    "It was through this means that I came to know Wisdom, reflected in him, but in so translucent a way that in him I could glimpse the Eternal Wisdom, the Subsistent Truth, the Second Person of the Holy Trinity. It was through this means that I understood Grandeur – a man who assumes everything good that existed in History and, by declaring himself in the state of counter-attack, causes the good of the past to be reborn and opens the doors of the future.
     
    It was through my relationship with him that I understood Magnanimity, this new name for the love of God by which the bountifulness of the superior naturally leads to the detachment and joy of the inferior. A virtue that makes it easy to understand what was and what is the disinterest of the Good Shepherd who gives His life for His sheep. It was in my relationship with him that I discovered Holy Wrath against the enemies of the Catholic name, a wrath proper to those truly innocent men, true lovers of the Holy City. Here also I understood what Courage is, a lofty, elevated and disdainful fearlessness in face of the bad, the revolutionary, the conspirators who plot the destruction of Christendom. It was in him that I learned what certainty of victory is and, in a word, the unshakeable certainty of the full realization of his vocation and, permit me to say, of mine as well.
     
    This relationship, with which Our Lady and he wanted to reward me, is sacred to me. The great Moses with his burning bush on the top of Sinai does not make me jealous. For if he were there with God for 40 days, I have been with Dr. Plinio for 33 years. And in this relationship I see, perhaps, more of the divine presence than he before the sacred bush. And I guard the hope that I still may win the dispute with this Prophet when I shall pass from this exile to the Fatherland."



    Come on guys. Incred, Pax, do you really find this acceptable? You don't have to agree with everything I'm saying, or Cera or Meg, and you don't have to give an inch to the SSPX, but can't you see how wrong this is? It's pretty disgusting stuff to read. Deluded and blasphemous are the only words I have to describe it. If the previous accusations against the TFP were out and out lies, I certainly wouldn't consider them exaggerations any more.

    Atila could have used any other occasion to criticize the SSPX openly, yet he chose to take a stand over TFP of all things. More specifically, his version of TFP which carries with it every appearance of cult-like devotion in light of his departing letter. His "vision."

    Quote from:Atila Guimaraes https://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/Internet_Files/F142_Defense_Eng.pdf pg 36
    However, Mr. President, the point that struck me regarding your omissions, which I found especially bitter to note, was the oblivion I noted in your letter of my right to keep in its entirety the noble vision of Dr. Plinio that Our Lady gave me.

    Could it have anything to do with Atila's reference to the TFP as being the Apostles prophesied by St. Montfort?


    Quote from:Atila Guimaraes https://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/Internet_Files/F142_Defense_Eng.pdf pg 36
    If we turn to the prophetic predictions of St. Louis Maria Grignion de Montfort in his Fire Prayer, we find a description of the current panorama. "Fire! Fire! Fire in the House of God!" Who are the men who will come to rescue her? Were they not we? Was this not one of the noblest hopes
    that inflamed the expectations of the best among us in the finest hours of our vocation? Didn't Dr. Plinio believe that the Congregation of the Apostles of the Latter Times [predicted by St. Louis] was founded on May 18, 1967 [when our consecration of slaves of Our Lady was made]?


    Does anyone want to hazard a guess as to what a "manifestation" of Plinio means?


    Quote from:Atila Guimaraes https://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/Internet_Files/F142_Defense_Eng.pdf pg 33
    First, because Dr. Plinio having promised that he would not abandon us, he did not abandon us. Second, because he said, "If I die, look for where I will be manifesting myself, and I will guide you there." This means that we should look for where he is. Obeying him, I looked for him. Others will have found him in various places. I found him in the fight; this is where I noted his manifestation and, perhaps, as I believe, others will also find him there.


    Am I the only one getting the sense that these guys are puffing themselves up to burst?


    Quote from:Plinio Correa https://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/Internet_Files/F142_Defense_Eng.pdf pg 33
    "I became a Crusader. That is, a man different from all men. Because Our Lord Jesus Christ, Who is the perfection of all things and Who is the fulfillment of the most perfect things, Our Lord Jesus Christ will now be avenged by me. I will perform the beauty of the revenge, of the fight for the fight, of the revenge for the revenge of Christ Our Lord for Christ Our Lord."


    Oh will you, Plinio? Which posthumous manifestation where you planning to send? If anyone is so blinded by their hatred of the SSPX that they will defend this lunacy or pretend it doesn't exist, deserves to have their powers of judgment questioned.

    Fortuna finem habet.


    Offline Struthio

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    Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
    « Reply #131 on: July 20, 2019, 02:47:58 PM »
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  • Quote from: Croixalist
    It's pretty disgusting stuff to read. Deluded and blasphemous are the only words I have to describe it.


    Yes indeed. And the quotes have been translated into English and published again recently:


    Quote from: TIA
    In January 2017, TIA hosted an Event celebrating [...]

    Some of our supporters and friends present at that celebration asked us if they could read this Defense; others insisted that a translation of it to English should be available to the public. Dr. Marian Horvat accepted their suggestion and translated the document from Portuguese to English.

    Even though the Defense was written many years ago, it seems opportune to us to circulate it now [...]

    https://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/f142_Defense.htm


    It's not that these blasphemies of Átila Sinke Guimarães are long forgotten.
    It is absurd to imagine that he who is outside can command in the Church — Leo XIII., Satis Cognitum, 1896

    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
    « Reply #132 on: July 20, 2019, 04:49:36 PM »
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  • Yes indeed. And the quotes have been translated into English and published again recently:


    https://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/f142_Defense.htm


    It's not that these blasphemies of Átila Sinke Guimarães are long forgotten.


    Oh, let me guess...  it was the polyglot Fr. Purdy who translated it...

    for the benefit "of the people" of course ?


    He's mastered multiple languages...

    including New York City English, Jersey City English and Filipino pidgin, which his adoring trad groupies taught him. 

    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi

    Offline Cera

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    Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
    « Reply #133 on: July 20, 2019, 05:04:47 PM »
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  • I admit, I hadn't read the entire letter. I wasn't aware Atila crossed the line from veneration to fanaticism and blasphemy. While it's hard for me to believe Plinio wasn't aware of this, suffice to say this is enough to cast a permanent pall over Mr. Guimaraes' intentions for TIA as well as what he believes TFP ought to be.    

    Atila Guimaraes https://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/Internet_Files/F142_Defense_Eng.pdf pgs 36-37
    "In the 51 years that I have roamed on this earth, I did not know a better image of God than my relationship with Dr. Plinio. Neither my admiration for Medieval Civilization, nor my enthusiasm for Chivalry or the magnificent architecture of the cathedrals, nor the elevated analysis of the organic regimes of yesteryear, nor my reverential respect for Charlemagne, nor the devotion I have to certain Saints – Michael the Archangel, Elias, Gregory VII, John the Evangelist, Augustine, Thomas Aquinas and especially Louis Grignion de Montfort, nor my complete affinity with the Holy Inquisition and the silent veneration that I pay to the mystery of the Liturgy(!) gave me anything comparable. Even the contemplation of God's plans in History, of which I am an aficionado admirer, did not bring me the broadness of panoramas and the sense of the divine that my relationship with Dr. Plinio provided.

    Not that such a relationship was perfect on my part – far be it from me to hold such pretensions – but on his part it was. And since there are certain supernatural realities that are expressed only in a relationship, the fact that they were perfect on his part and that I did not oppose great resistance to him on my part, they could flow normally, reflecting what God wanted them to reflect for me and, perhaps, also for Dr. Plinio. It was through such a relationship that I learned the true love for the Catholic Church, which he taught me to venerate with all my soul.

    "It was through this means that I came to know Wisdom, reflected in him, but in so translucent a way that in him I could glimpse the Eternal Wisdom, the Subsistent Truth, the Second Person of the Holy Trinity. It was through this means that I understood Grandeur – a man who assumes everything good that existed in History and, by declaring himself in the state of counter-attack, causes the good of the past to be reborn and opens the doors of the future.
     
    It was through my relationship with him that I understood Magnanimity, this new name for the love of God by which the bountifulness of the superior naturally leads to the detachment and joy of the inferior. A virtue that makes it easy to understand what was and what is the disinterest of the Good Shepherd who gives His life for His sheep. It was in my relationship with him that I discovered Holy Wrath against the enemies of the Catholic name, a wrath proper to those truly innocent men, true lovers of the Holy City. Here also I understood what Courage is, a lofty, elevated and disdainful fearlessness in face of the bad, the revolutionary, the conspirators who plot the destruction of Christendom. It was in him that I learned what certainty of victory is and, in a word, the unshakeable certainty of the full realization of his vocation and, permit me to say, of mine as well.
     
    This relationship, with which Our Lady and he wanted to reward me, is sacred to me. The great Moses with his burning bush on the top of Sinai does not make me jealous. For if he were there with God for 40 days, I have been with Dr. Plinio for 33 years. And in this relationship I see, perhaps, more of the divine presence than he before the sacred bush. And I guard the hope that I still may win the dispute with this Prophet when I shall pass from this exile to the Fatherland."



    Come on guys. Incred, Pax, do you really find this acceptable? You don't have to agree with everything I'm saying, or Cera or Meg, and you don't have to give an inch to the SSPX, but can't you see how wrong this is? It's pretty disgusting stuff to read. Deluded and blasphemous are the only words I have to describe it. If the previous accusations against the TFP were out and out lies, I certainly wouldn't consider them exaggerations any more.

    Atila could have used any other occasion to criticize the SSPX openly, yet he chose to take a stand over TFP of all things. More specifically, his version of TFP which carries with it every appearance of cult-like devotion in light of his departing letter. His "vision."

    Quote from:Atila Guimaraes https://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/Internet_Files/F142_Defense_Eng.pdf pg 36
    However, Mr. President, the point that struck me regarding your omissions, which I found especially bitter to note, was the oblivion I noted in your letter of my right to keep in its entirety the noble vision of Dr. Plinio that Our Lady gave me.

    Could it have anything to do with Atila's reference to the TFP as being the Apostles prophesied by St. Montfort?


    Quote from:Atila Guimaraes https://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/Internet_Files/F142_Defense_Eng.pdf pg 36
    If we turn to the prophetic predictions of St. Louis Maria Grignion de Montfort in his Fire Prayer, we find a description of the current panorama. "Fire! Fire! Fire in the House of God!" Who are the men who will come to rescue her? Were they not we? Was this not one of the noblest hopes
    that inflamed the expectations of the best among us in the finest hours of our vocation? Didn't Dr. Plinio believe that the Congregation of the Apostles of the Latter Times [predicted by St. Louis] was founded on May 18, 1967 [when our consecration of slaves of Our Lady was made]?


    Does anyone want to hazard a guess as to what a "manifestation" of Plinio means?


    Quote from:Atila Guimaraes https://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/Internet_Files/F142_Defense_Eng.pdf pg 33
    First, because Dr. Plinio having promised that he would not abandon us, he did not abandon us. Second, because he said, "If I die, look for where I will be manifesting myself, and I will guide you there." This means that we should look for where he is. Obeying him, I looked for him. Others will have found him in various places. I found him in the fight; this is where I noted his manifestation and, perhaps, as I believe, others will also find him there.


    Am I the only one getting the sense that these guys are puffing themselves up to burst?


    Quote from:Plinio Correa https://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/Internet_Files/F142_Defense_Eng.pdf pg 33
    "I became a Crusader. That is, a man different from all men. Because Our Lord Jesus Christ, Who is the perfection of all things and Who is the fulfillment of the most perfect things, Our Lord Jesus Christ will now be avenged by me. I will perform the beauty of the revenge, of the fight for the fight, of the revenge for the revenge of Christ Our Lord for Christ Our Lord."


    Oh will you, Plinio? Which posthumous manifestation where you planning to send? If anyone is so blinded by their hatred of the SSPX that they will defend this lunacy or pretend it doesn't exist, deserves to have their powers of judgment questioned.
    Thank you Croix for the brilliant exposition of their own words.
    Pray for the consecration of Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary

    Offline Struthio

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    Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
    « Reply #134 on: July 20, 2019, 07:39:01 PM »
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  • Oh, let me guess...  it was the polyglot Fr. Purdy who translated it...

    Since in my previous post I already quoted TIA to indicate who translated Átila's blasphemies, I will switch to your own presentation style to arouse your attention:





    Quote from: Átila Sinke Guimarães, 1997
    O grande Moisés, com sua sarça ardente no alto do Sinai, não me faz inveja. Pois, se ele ali se relacionou com Deus durante quarenta dias, eu me relaciono com Doutor Plinio há trinta e três anos. E, em tais relações, vejo talvez mais a presença divina do que ele ante o sagrado arbusto. E guardo a esperança de ainda vencer o Profeta nesta tertúlia, quando eu passar do atual degredo para a Pátria.






    Quote from: Átila Sinke Guimarães, 1997 [translation by Marian Horvat, 2018]
    The great Moses with his burning bush on the top of Sinai does not make me jealous. For if he were there with God for 40 days, I have been with Dr. Plinio for 33 years. And in this relationship I see, perhaps, more of the divine presence than he before the sacred bush. And I guard the hope that I still may win the dispute with this Prophet when I shall pass from this exile to the Fatherland.



    Come back to reality, Incredulous! It's better over here.



    Sources:
    https://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/Internet_Files/F159_Defesa-Port.pdf
    https://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/Internet_Files/F142_Defense_Eng.pdf
    It is absurd to imagine that he who is outside can command in the Church — Leo XIII., Satis Cognitum, 1896

     

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