Author Topic: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group  (Read 8032 times)

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Offline Struthio

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Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
« Reply #30 on: July 11, 2019, 10:23:46 PM »
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  • The devil loves blasphemy.
    It is absurd to imagine that he who is outside can command in the Church — Leo XIII., Satis Cognitum, 1896

    Offline Cera

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    Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
    « Reply #31 on: July 12, 2019, 02:55:15 PM »
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  • No. Please stop, Cera. We’ve all had enough of this.

    Why are you so fixated on discrediting TFP/TIA?
    Those of us who love Truth also love the truth. Facts are presented regarding an anti-Catholic heretical sect which purports to be Catholic. Instead of rational arguments against the facts, TFP/TIA cult members instead:
    1. cut-and-paste from their TIA guru,
    2. name-call,
    3. demand that the facts not be posted.
    I continue to pray for all of those who have become deluded by this "anti-Catholic, anti-clerical heretical sect" as Bishop Mayer called the Plinio- worshiping TFP.
    Pray for the consecration of Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary


    Offline Cera

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    Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
    « Reply #32 on: July 12, 2019, 02:58:22 PM »
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  • repeat
    Pray for the consecration of Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary

    Offline Cera

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    Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
    « Reply #33 on: July 12, 2019, 03:09:36 PM »
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  • Dr. Orlando Fedeli, a secondary school teacher and professor at the Pontifical University of Sâo Paulo, had been a TFPista and follower of Plínio Corrêa de Oliveira for decades before leaving and turning himself into a fierce critic of Plínio and his TFP. Inter alia, he wrote a book titled No País das Maravilhas: a Gnose Burlesca da TFP e dos Arautos do Evangelho (In Wonderland: The Burlesque Gnosis of the TFP and the Herolds of the Gospel). The Arautos of João Scognamiglio Clá Dias are one of two main TFP successor organisations in Brazil. Fedeli denounced an inner TFP circle, a blasphemous cult in which our Lord and our Lady were replaced by Plínio and his mother Lucilia.

    Fedeli founded his own organisation, the Associação Cultural Montfort, which split into two a few years after his death in 2010. Docile followers turning into headstrong competitors.

    Different from Orlando Fedeli, the italian Roberto de Mattei penned an awe-inspiring hagiography of Plínio Corrêa.

    Some years ago, an audio of a conference of João Scognamiglio Clá Dias could be found on gloria.tv, youtube etc. in which Clá Dias taught his followers a mockery and blasphemy. He praised a disfigured version of the words of St. Paul

     "It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me" (Gal 2:20)

    where the word Christ was replaced by the name Plínio, as the state of mind to strive for. The audio showed that the allegations of Fedeli had not been an invention.

    The audio as well as the whole affair was nauseating.
    Thank you for the detailed background on this. The blasphemous "prayer" to Plinio has been posted here previously and the response from the Plinio- worshipers here on Cath Info has been limited to personal attacks and demands that the facts no longer be posted
    Pray for the consecration of Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
    « Reply #34 on: July 12, 2019, 05:46:24 PM »
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  • Dr. Orlando Fedeli, a secondary school teacher and professor at the Pontifical University of Sâo Paulo, had been a TFPista and follower of Plínio Corrêa de Oliveira for decades before leaving and turning himself into a fierce critic of Plínio and his TFP. Inter alia, he wrote a book titled No País das Maravilhas: a Gnose Burlesca da TFP e dos Arautos do Evangelho (In Wonderland: The Burlesque Gnosis of the TFP and the Herolds of the Gospel). The Arautos of João Scognamiglio Clá Dias are one of two main TFP successor organisations in Brazil. Fedeli denounced an inner TFP circle, a blasphemous cult in which our Lord and our Lady were replaced by Plínio and his mother Lucilia.

    Quote from above:
    "Fedeli denounced an inner TFP circle, a blasphemous cult in which our Lord and our Lady were replaced by Plinio and his mother Lucilia."

    My question is, why have those who support Plinio/TFP on this forum not tried to refute these allegations? All they have done is to refer to a refutation by Guimaraes, but that doesn't cut it. It is a serious accusation, and it needs to be addressed in a forthright manner.

    Did Plinio indeed put himself in place of our Lord, and his mother Lucilia in place of our Lady? Because if he did, then there was a very serious problem with Plinio de Oliviera.

    Also, it seems that there may have been a (secret?) inner circle, which is mentioned in the above quote. Is it possible that most of the followers of Plinio/TFP were not aware of an inner circle?


    Offline Alan

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    Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
    « Reply #35 on: July 13, 2019, 05:06:37 AM »
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  • Quote from above:
    ...
    ...
    Did Plinio indeed put himself in place of our Lord, and his mother Lucilia in place of our Lady? Because if he did, then there was a very serious problem with Plinio de Oliviera.

    Also, it seems that there may have been a (secret?) inner circle, which is mentioned in the above quote. Is it possible that most of the followers of Plinio/TFP were not aware of an inner circle?

    I don't think Mr Plinio C de Oliveira did put his mother in place of Our Lady because he is a zealous promoter of the Rosary and Fatima message, more than many priests of today.


    I don't think he put himself in place of Our Lord too, because I never heard him promoting or glorifying himself but only Our Lord and Our Lady.

    Is the TFP anti-Catholic? Judge them by their actions.
    "You will know them by their fruits....Even so, every good tree bears good fruit; but the bad tree bears bad fruit” (Matthew 7:15-17).

    Did they promote abortion or fight against it?
    Did they promote sodomy or fight against it?
    Did they promote "True devotion to Mary" or fight against it?
    etc.

    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
    « Reply #36 on: July 13, 2019, 08:33:49 AM »
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  • Quote from above:
    "Fedeli denounced an inner TFP circle, a blasphemous cult in which our Lord and our Lady were replaced by Plinio and his mother Lucilia."

    My question is, why have those who support Plinio/TFP on this forum not tried to refute these allegations? All they have done is to refer to a refutation by Guimaraes, but that doesn't cut it. It is a serious accusation, and it needs to be addressed in a forthright manner.

    Did Plinio indeed put himself in place of our Lord, and his mother Lucilia in place of our Lady? Because if he did, then there was a very serious problem with Plinio de Oliviera.

    Also, it seems that there may have been a (secret?) inner circle, which is mentioned in the above quote. Is it possible that most of the followers of Plinio/TFP were not aware of an inner circle?


    Meg,

    Let's cut to the chase.

    Are you actually Jade Liboro, posting for the benefit of the SSPX?  :-\
    You've been on this forum since 2013.  Jade's been in the Quito convent since 2014.

    An honest response would be appreciated by all.
    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
    « Reply #37 on: July 13, 2019, 08:35:05 AM »
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  • I don't think Mr Plinio C de Oliveira did put his mother in place of Our Lady because he is a zealous promoter of the Rosary and Fatima message, more than many priests of today.


    I don't think he put himself in place of Our Lord too, because I never heard him promoting or glorifying himself but only Our Lord and Our Lady.

    Is the TFP anti-Catholic? Judge them by their actions.
    "You will know them by their fruits....Even so, every good tree bears good fruit; but the bad tree bears bad fruit” (Matthew 7:15-17).

    Did they promote abortion or fight against it?
    Did they promote sodomy or fight against it?
    Did they promote "True devotion to Mary" or fight against it?
    etc.

    Yes, I am aware that Plinio de Oliveira was a promoter of the Fatima message and the Rosary. But how is it that de Oliveira ended up being worshiped by some of his followers? How can you be sure that Oliveira did not encourage that?

    Archbishop Lefebvre's mother was a saintly person, but no one has ever encouraged setting her up as another Blessed Virgin Mary. One has to wonder about what was being taught to people who believe that Plinio (and his mother) are another Christ and Blessed Virgin Mary.


    Offline Struthio

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    Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
    « Reply #38 on: July 13, 2019, 08:36:20 AM »
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  • Did Plinio indeed put himself in place of our Lord, and his mother Lucilia in place of our Lady? Because if he did, then there was a very serious problem with Plinio de Oliviera.

    Also, it seems that there may have been a (secret?) inner circle, which is mentioned in the above quote. Is it possible that most of the followers of Plinio/TFP were not aware of an inner circle?

    There was a public fight between Orlando Fedeli and Plínio Corrêa de Oliveira in the 1980s. They wrote articles in one of the major brazilian newspapers, the Folha de São Paulo (besides books, pamphlets, and articles elsewhere published). Átila Sinke Guimarães wrote in defense of Plínio's TFP.

    TFP defenders then admitted the existence of "Sempre Viva" and presented its role and customs as legitimate. On the other hand, Fedeli presented testimony of dropouts.

    I only read some of all the hundreds of pages that have been written against or in defense of Plínio Corrêa de Oliveira and the cult of Plínio and Lucília.

    In my opinion, the leaked audio of João Scognamilio Clá Dias gives credit to Orlando Fedeli. It was uploaded in 2010 or 2011 and since removed from youtube as well as elsewhere. A transcription can be found at

      http://www.montfort.org.br:84/nova-confirmacao-do-culto-delirante-prestado-a-plinio-correa-de-oliveira/

    Quote
    É preciso que a gente tenha uma devoção a ele [Dr. Plinio] crescente, um ardor a ele cada vez maior, que a gente o queira com toda força da nossa alma. Que a gente não pense em outra coisa durante o dia senão ele ele ele ele ele ele, que passe o dia ávido, o dia ansioso, o dia desejoso de ter um encontro ainda que místico, interior, com ele, uma conversa, um contato com ele, e a gente, portanto, vá se unindo cada vez mais a ele, a ponto de não termos mais a nossa mentalidade, o nosso espírito, a nossa inteligência, a nossa vontade, a nossa sensibilidade funcionando, a não ser assim: Eu já não vivo, é o sr. Dr. Plínio que vive em mim.

    Quote
    It is necessary that we have a crescent devotion to him [Dr. Plínio], a constantly growing ardor, that we want him in our soul with all our forces. That we don't think of anything else the whole day long, nothing but him, him, him, him, him, him, [... etc. pp. ...] up to the point where we have: I don't live anymore, it is Dr. Plínio who lives in me.
    It is absurd to imagine that he who is outside can command in the Church — Leo XIII., Satis Cognitum, 1896

    Offline Bas Congo V

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    Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
    « Reply #39 on: July 13, 2019, 08:49:25 AM »
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  • TIA has been a blessing and service to the Church Militant.

    The Lord is as a man of war, Almighty is his name. ~ Exodus 15:3

    It is better to choose a commendable war than peace which separates from God. ~ St. Gregory

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
    « Reply #40 on: July 13, 2019, 11:01:43 AM »
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  • Meg,

    Let's cut to the chase.

    Are you actually Jade Liboro, posting for the benefit of the SSPX? :-\
    You've been on this forum since 2013.  Jade's been in the Quito convent since 2014.

    An honest response would be appreciated by all.

    :popcorn:


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
    « Reply #41 on: July 13, 2019, 11:06:28 AM »
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  • My question is, why have those who support Plinio/TFP on this forum not tried to refute these allegations? All they have done is to refer to a refutation by Guimaraes, but that doesn't cut it. It is a serious accusation, and it needs to be addressed in a forthright manner.

    Did Plinio indeed put himself in place of our Lord, and his mother Lucilia in place of our Lady? Because if he did, then there was a very serious problem with Plinio de Oliviera.

    Short of someone having first-hand knowledge of the goings on inside the TFP, especially in the 80s, what else can people rely on but the testimony of others?  We find the refutation by Guimaraes to be convincing.  I also know a few American TFP members personally, and even questioned a couple of them regarding Plinio, and the answer was that they respect him, but that is all.  I never got ANY hint of Plinio worship or the worship of Plinio's Mom.  Now maybe it was different in parts of Brazil, but my experience with the American TFP has been nothing but positive.  Of course they do soft-pedal their opposition to Vatican II way too much, but that's a different issue.  For being so "anti-clerical" they do seem rather insistent on submission to the purported hierarchy and disagree with the SSPX precisely on those grounds.  So that seems to directly contradict the charge of anti-clericalism.

    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
    « Reply #42 on: July 13, 2019, 11:16:12 AM »
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  • TIA has great catholic articles and the TFP does great catholic work (like organizing the 8,000+ rosary rallys).  Writing them off because their founder was a nut is akin to condemning the sspx masses as heretical because +Fellay is a modernist-in-hiding (and he is).  There’s no logic, just emotions.  Cena has this false “all or nothing”, “black and white”, “either-or” mindset that is pervasive in the Trad world and which contributes to the lack of unity in our circles and also makes many hesitate to convert to traditionalism.  Basically, she either can’t make ANY distinctions or she doesn’t want to.  The amount of emotion and vitriol she regularly expresses shows it’s the latter.  It’s sad but unsurprising.  Many Trads act like her.  

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
    « Reply #43 on: July 13, 2019, 11:20:39 AM »
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  • Meg,

    Let's cut to the chase.

    Are you actually Jade Liboro, posting for the benefit of the SSPX? :-\
    You've been on this forum since 2013.  Jade's been in the Quito convent since 2014.

    An honest response would be appreciated by all.

    I'm not going to answer your question. I find it amusing that you think that my real name is Jade Liboro, and that I live in a convent in Ecuador.

    It's very telling that the followers of Guimaraes think that anyone who questions them is an "agent" of the SSPX, or communism or whatever. It's a strange mentality that perceives an "agent" behind every screen name that opposes them. If you want to think that I'm Jade Liboro, that's fine. It's not like you would believe anything I say anyway. That's why I don't often respond to your posts.

    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
    « Reply #44 on: July 13, 2019, 11:34:58 AM »
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  • I'm not going to answer your question. I find it amusing that you think that my real name is Jade Liboro, and that I live in a convent in Ecuador.

    It's very telling that the followers of Guimaraes think that anyone who questions them is an "agent" of the SSPX, or communism or whatever. It's a strange mentality that perceives an "agent" behind every screen name that opposes them. If you want to think that I'm Jade Liboro, that's fine. It's not like you would believe anything I say anyway. That's why I don't often respond to your posts.

    Jade only visits... Meg and you know that, but your posts serve her agenda well.
    Jade is computer/server proficient and can post from Ecuador, Florida or any where else in the world.
    And who else might know of her routines? :-\
    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi

     

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