In case you don’t know TIA is a branch of Tradition Family and Property founded by Plinio Correa de Oliveira in Brazil.
Bp de Castro Mayer, after supporting them, in 1983 publicly dissociated from this organization and condemned them, as they became a real sect evolving into a cult of their founder and esoteric practices.
I knew them very well in South America. They're dangerous!
Did you know TIA and TFP have been separated for almost 20 years? Their dispute is on allegiance to the Consiliar church.
Dear Atila Sinke Guimaraes
Please give up the TIA and join the SSPX ( or offshoots)
They Tarzan
You Dirt
Everybody else
Sedevacantists
Atila is slave # 11, not a slave to Mary, but a slave to Plinio.
Atila is a scholar, a thinker and a writer.
He'd be valuable to Fr. Wegner's "Dutch Branding" company, to help write Bp. Fellay's pre-Canonization biography.
So the Bishop said TFP mistrusts the clergy....Bp. de Castro Mayer wasn't a "conciliar bishop", you ignoramus.
Matthew aren't you a resistance supporter? The whole point of resistance is mistrusting the clergy!
All that letter is was a conciliar bishop who didn't like the fact the TFP thinks there are smarter then the Conciliar church...Um Hello that is what traditional Catholicism is you ignoramus's.
In case you don’t know TIA is a branch of Tradition Family and Property founded by Plinio Correa de Oliveira in Brazil.This says nothing, it is just one priest's warning, why should anyone listen to an anonymous priest who says just that "they are dangerous"? How exactly are they dangerous? No organization today is without a dangerous feature and one has to be aware of it, but to dismiss the TIA website with all of its pure Catholic teachings because a priest says Plinio was dangerous, is pure foolishness.
Bp de Castro Mayer, after supporting them, in 1983 publicly dissociated from this organization and condemned them, as they became a real sect evolving into a cult of their founder and esoteric practices.
I knew them very well in South America. They're dangerous!
Atila is slave # 11, not a slave to Mary, but a slave to Plinio.Thanks for the warning, but I would not become a slave to any man, so it is good to know, but not of any other use to me.
The following declaration was registered at the Public Archives (August 24, 1984) and published on March 14 1985 in the newspaper La Folha de Manha.
So the Bishop said TFP mistrusts the clergy....It's bad enough that you cannot give a rational answer.
Matthew aren't you a resistance supporter? The whole point of resistance is mistrusting the clergy!
All that letter is was a conciliar bishop who didn't like the fact the TFP thinks there are smarter then the Conciliar church...Um Hello that is what traditional Catholicism is you ignoramus's.
Thanks for the warning, but I would not become a slave to any man,I am truly happy to hear that you would not become a slave to another human being in an anti-Catholic mockery of a Catholic consecration to Mary.
However, does it not make you stop and think about the anti-Catholic, heretical act that Atila, head of Tradition in Action, engaging in when he made himself a slave to his master Plinio?I trust him because he has developed my trust over like 10 years+ that I have been reading what he writes, and not one word was "anti-Catholic heretical".
Why would you trust any words that come from the pen of this anti-Catholic heretic?
The "Trad-Granny" thing is a bit much Incred. Stick to the argument, there's plenty to be had.:jumping2:
More than Mr. Armour's or Mr. Ablas' detailed testimony, we have Atila attempting to excuse the TFP practice of referring to themselves as "slaves" to Plinio. I don't care if it's in addition to being slaves to Our Lady, St. Montfort did not proscribe any such spiritual obedience to a layman, nor can I imagine a scenario where such a practice would be appropriate. This to me was a major indication that the aforementioned testimonies had at least a kernel of truth to them. It would be helpful if more people came forward about this. We only have insider info from two sources in two different parts of the world and those sources were unknown to begin with and completely disappeared from the traditional scene after they spoke up.
Whether Atila and TIA know it or not, they are the ones providing the strongest evidence for the disordered foundation of the TFP. By turning their axe to the roots of the SSPX, they reveal the tree rot of their own group and their sole claim to orthodoxy from the onset of the VII era.
Thanks for the warning, but I would not become a slave to any man, so it is good to know, but not of any other use to me.
That is the problem with people who follow personalities, and most people follow personalities, defending them as if they were personally being attacked. This is what the SSPXers do with the SSPX and Abp. Lefebvre, Bp. Williamson, Bp. Fellay……..
I follow only truth.
(by the way, Bp. Willamson many times has said everything I wrote above)
This says nothing, it is just one priest's warning, why should anyone listen to an anonymous priest who says just that "they are dangerous"? How exactly are they dangerous? No organization today is without a dangerous feature and one has to be aware of it, but to dismiss the TIA website with all of its pure Catholic teachings because a priest says Plinio was dangerous, is pure foolishness.
It's bad enough that you cannot give a rational answer.
It's bad enough that you so often resort to name-calling.
But then you top it off by a grammatical error in you name-calling.
The plural of ignoramus is ignoramuses. Your use of an apostrophe makes the word possessive.
Those who follow and support Guimaraes/TIA/TFP tend to act as though they are being personally attacked when Guimaraes/TIA/TFP is criticized. The problems with TFP, and by extension TIA, shouldn't be swept under the rug just because there are those who deny that there is a problem. It would be like denying that there is a problem with the Neo-SSPX.:applause: :applause: :applause:
No. Please stop, Cera. We’ve all had enough of this.
Why are you so fixated on discrediting TFP/TIA?
Warning from a Traditional Catholic priest familiar with the group:QuoteIn case you don’t know TIA is a branch of Tradition Family and Property founded by Plinio Correa de Oliveira in Brazil.
Bp de Castro Mayer, after supporting them, in 1983 publicly dissociated from this organization and condemned them, as they became a real sect evolving into a cult of their founder and esoteric practices.
I knew them very well in South America. They're dangerous!
No. Please stop, Cera. We’ve all had enough of this.Those of us who love Truth also love the truth. Facts are presented regarding an anti-Catholic heretical sect which purports to be Catholic. Instead of rational arguments against the facts, TFP/TIA cult members instead:
Why are you so fixated on discrediting TFP/TIA?
Thank you for the detailed background on this. The blasphemous "prayer" to Plinio has been posted here previously and the response from the Plinio- worshipers here on Cath Info has been limited to personal attacks and demands that the facts no longer be posted
Dr. Orlando Fedeli, a secondary school teacher and professor at the Pontifical University of Sâo Paulo, had been a TFPista and follower of Plínio Corrêa de Oliveira for decades before leaving and turning himself into a fierce critic of Plínio and his TFP. Inter alia, he wrote a book titled No País das Maravilhas: a Gnose Burlesca da TFP e dos Arautos do Evangelho (In Wonderland: The Burlesque Gnosis of the TFP and the Herolds of the Gospel). The Arautos of João Scognamiglio Clá Dias are one of two main TFP successor organisations in Brazil. Fedeli denounced an inner TFP circle, a blasphemous cult in which our Lord and our Lady were replaced by Plínio and his mother Lucilia.
Fedeli founded his own organisation, the Associação Cultural Montfort, which split into two a few years after his death in 2010. Docile followers turning into headstrong competitors.
Different from Orlando Fedeli, the italian Roberto de Mattei penned an awe-inspiring hagiography of Plínio Corrêa.
Some years ago, an audio of a conference of João Scognamiglio Clá Dias could be found on gloria.tv, youtube etc. in which Clá Dias taught his followers a mockery and blasphemy. He praised a disfigured version of the words of St. Paul
"It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me" (Gal 2:20)
where the word Christ was replaced by the name Plínio, as the state of mind to strive for. The audio showed that the allegations of Fedeli had not been an invention.
The audio as well as the whole affair was nauseating.
Dr. Orlando Fedeli, a secondary school teacher and professor at the Pontifical University of Sâo Paulo, had been a TFPista and follower of Plínio Corrêa de Oliveira for decades before leaving and turning himself into a fierce critic of Plínio and his TFP. Inter alia, he wrote a book titled No País das Maravilhas: a Gnose Burlesca da TFP e dos Arautos do Evangelho (In Wonderland: The Burlesque Gnosis of the TFP and the Herolds of the Gospel). The Arautos of João Scognamiglio Clá Dias are one of two main TFP successor organisations in Brazil. Fedeli denounced an inner TFP circle, a blasphemous cult in which our Lord and our Lady were replaced by Plínio and his mother Lucilia.
Quote from above:
...
...
Did Plinio indeed put himself in place of our Lord, and his mother Lucilia in place of our Lady? Because if he did, then there was a very serious problem with Plinio de Oliviera.
Also, it seems that there may have been a (secret?) inner circle, which is mentioned in the above quote. Is it possible that most of the followers of Plinio/TFP were not aware of an inner circle?
Quote from above:
"Fedeli denounced an inner TFP circle, a blasphemous cult in which our Lord and our Lady were replaced by Plinio and his mother Lucilia."
My question is, why have those who support Plinio/TFP on this forum not tried to refute these allegations? All they have done is to refer to a refutation by Guimaraes, but that doesn't cut it. It is a serious accusation, and it needs to be addressed in a forthright manner.
Did Plinio indeed put himself in place of our Lord, and his mother Lucilia in place of our Lady? Because if he did, then there was a very serious problem with Plinio de Oliviera.
Also, it seems that there may have been a (secret?) inner circle, which is mentioned in the above quote. Is it possible that most of the followers of Plinio/TFP were not aware of an inner circle?
I don't think Mr Plinio C de Oliveira did put his mother in place of Our Lady because he is a zealous promoter of the Rosary and Fatima message, more than many priests of today.
I don't think he put himself in place of Our Lord too, because I never heard him promoting or glorifying himself but only Our Lord and Our Lady.
Is the TFP anti-Catholic? Judge them by their actions.
"You will know them by their fruits....Even so, every good tree bears good fruit; but the bad tree bears bad fruit” (Matthew 7:15-17).
Did they promote abortion or fight against it?
Did they promote sodomy or fight against it?
Did they promote "True devotion to Mary" or fight against it?
etc.
Did Plinio indeed put himself in place of our Lord, and his mother Lucilia in place of our Lady? Because if he did, then there was a very serious problem with Plinio de Oliviera.
Also, it seems that there may have been a (secret?) inner circle, which is mentioned in the above quote. Is it possible that most of the followers of Plinio/TFP were not aware of an inner circle?
É preciso que a gente tenha uma devoção a ele [Dr. Plinio] crescente, um ardor a ele cada vez maior, que a gente o queira com toda força da nossa alma. Que a gente não pense em outra coisa durante o dia senão ele ele ele ele ele ele, que passe o dia ávido, o dia ansioso, o dia desejoso de ter um encontro ainda que místico, interior, com ele, uma conversa, um contato com ele, e a gente, portanto, vá se unindo cada vez mais a ele, a ponto de não termos mais a nossa mentalidade, o nosso espírito, a nossa inteligência, a nossa vontade, a nossa sensibilidade funcionando, a não ser assim: Eu já não vivo, é o sr. Dr. Plínio que vive em mim.
It is necessary that we have a crescent devotion to him [Dr. Plínio], a constantly growing ardor, that we want him in our soul with all our forces. That we don't think of anything else the whole day long, nothing but him, him, him, him, him, him, [... etc. pp. ...] up to the point where we have: I don't live anymore, it is Dr. Plínio who lives in me.
Meg,
Let's cut to the chase.
Are you actually Jade Liboro, posting for the benefit of the SSPX? :-\
You've been on this forum since 2013. Jade's been in the Quito convent since 2014.
An honest response would be appreciated by all.
My question is, why have those who support Plinio/TFP on this forum not tried to refute these allegations? All they have done is to refer to a refutation by Guimaraes, but that doesn't cut it. It is a serious accusation, and it needs to be addressed in a forthright manner.
Did Plinio indeed put himself in place of our Lord, and his mother Lucilia in place of our Lady? Because if he did, then there was a very serious problem with Plinio de Oliviera.
Meg,
Let's cut to the chase.
Are you actually Jade Liboro, posting for the benefit of the SSPX? :-\
You've been on this forum since 2013. Jade's been in the Quito convent since 2014.
An honest response would be appreciated by all.
I'm not going to answer your question. I find it amusing that you think that my real name is Jade Liboro, and that I live in a convent in Ecuador.
It's very telling that the followers of Guimaraes think that anyone who questions them is an "agent" of the SSPX, or communism or whatever. It's a strange mentality that perceives an "agent" behind every screen name that opposes them. If you want to think that I'm Jade Liboro, that's fine. It's not like you would believe anything I say anyway. That's why I don't often respond to your posts.
TIA has great catholic articles and the TFP does great catholic work (like organizing the 8,000+ rosary rallys). Writing them off because their founder was a nut is akin to condemning the sspx masses as heretical because +Fellay is a modernist-in-hiding (and he is). There’s no logic, just emotions. Cena has this false “all or nothing”, “black and white”, “either-or” mindset that is pervasive in the Trad world and which contributes to the lack of unity in our circles and also makes many hesitate to convert to traditionalism. Basically, she either can’t make ANY distinctions or she doesn’t want to. The amount of emotion and vitriol she regularly expresses shows it’s the latter. It’s sad but unsurprising. Many Trads act like her.
I'm not going to answer your question. I find it amusing that you think that my real name is Jade Liboro, and that I live in a convent in Ecuador.
It's very telling that the followers of Guimaraes think that anyone who questions them is an "agent" of the SSPX, or communism or whatever. It's a strange mentality that perceives an "agent" behind every screen name that opposes them. If you want to think that I'm Jade Liboro, that's fine. It's not like you would believe anything I say anyway. That's why I don't often respond to your posts.
This really has all the sounds of a mental reservation. How hard would it have been to say, "No, I am not this Jade person."?
Bp. Fellay isn't the founder of the SSPX, so I don't see the correlation.This is exactly my issue - the “over-the-topness”.
Yes, Cera is at times a little over-the-top. But I think that she is trying to do the right thing. I started to defend her because several forum members were ganging up on her in what I felt was a belligerent manner. It didn't seem right. Especially since she's hardly the only Catholic to take issue with TIA/TFP/Guimaraes/Plinio. I find that the other testimonies from those who are trying to show the problems with TIA/TFP/Guimaraes/Plinio seem credible. We might not be able to prove anything from either side of the issue, but that doesn't mean that the subject should be forbidden.
Actually what would be appreciated by all would be an intelligent response from you regarding the serious questions which have been raised.
Meg,
Let's cut to the chase.
Are you actually Jade Liboro, posting for the benefit of the SSPX? :-\
You've been on this forum since 2013. Jade's been in the Quito convent since 2014.
An honest response would be appreciated by all.
Actually what would be appreciated by all would be an intelligent response from you regarding the serious questions which have been raised.
Second best would be an honest question from you.
Making a TIA-type attack disguised as a pseudo- question is rather sophomoric.
This is exactly my issue - the “over-the-topness”.
We aren’t ganging up on her. A few members are simply stating that Cera’s fixation on discrediting the TFP/TIA seems obsessive.
We’re also not saying this issue should be forbidden. But when a new thread is created every week to state the same things over and over again, it gets annoying.
We’ve asked Cera to share with us why she is so fixated on the “evils” of Plinio and Guimaraes. If she had a bad experience with them she should make that know so we would have a better understanding of where she is coming from. But we’ve repeatedly asked her about this to no avail.
For being so "anti-clerical" they do seem rather insistent on submission to the purported hierarchy and disagree with the SSPX precisely on those grounds. So that seems to directly contradict the charge of anti-clericalism.TFP was condemned by their local Bishop as being an "anti-Catholic, anti-clerical heretical sect."
TIA has great catholic articles and the TFP does great catholic work (like organizing the 8,000+ rosary rallys). Writing them off because their founder was a nut is akin to condemning the sspx masses as heretical because +Fellay is a modernist-in-hiding (and he is). There’s no logic, just emotions. Cena has this false “all or nothing”, “black and white”, “either-or” mindset that is pervasive in the Trad world and which contributes to the lack of unity in our circles and also makes many hesitate to convert to traditionalism. Basically, she either can’t make ANY distinctions or she doesn’t want to. The amount of emotion and vitriol she regularly expresses shows it’s the latter. It’s sad but unsurprising. Many Trads act like her.Since I have posted only statements by Bishops, former members and journalists, I look forward to your citation of the "black-and-white" thinking of which you accuse me.
TFP was condemned by their local Bishop as being an "anti-Catholic, anti-clerical heretical sect."TFP was condemned long ago; TIA has not been. Yet you lump them both together. Your lack of distinguishing is the problem. The "black and white" thinking is that TFP is condemned, ergo TIA is also. This is illogical.
As for TIA, one only has to read their unfounded attacks on Blessed Cardinal Newman, Archbishop Lefebrve, Bishop Travez and numerous good, traditional Catholic priests to see that they are indeed anti-clerical.
Bp. Fellay isn't the founder of the SSPX, so I don't see the correlation.Obviously.
TFP was condemned long ago; TIA has not been. Yet you lump them both together. Your lack of distinguishing is the problem. The "black and white" thinking is that TFP is condemned, ergo TIA is also. This is illogical.
TFP was condemned long ago; TIA has not been. Yet you lump them both together. Your lack of distinguishing is the problem. The "black and white" thinking is that TFP is condemned, ergo TIA is also. This is illogical.
TFP was condemned long ago; TIA has not been. Yet you lump them both together. Your lack of distinguishing is the problem. The "black and white" thinking is that TFP is condemned, ergo TIA is also. This is illogical.It only appears to be illogical if you missed this post:
The word spread in the Convent that she had received the task to pray for him directly from Our Lady.
Two nuns on the plaza corner
In 1968 and 1969, the TFP was making public campaigns against the infiltration of semi-occult progressivist groups in the Church that wanted to subvert her. The Brazilian monthly Catolicismo had published a special issue on this topic and the TFP activists were spreading that issue among the public. One of the ways TFP accomplished this task was through “caravans.” These caravans were groups of nine young men in a UV who would travel in an area where TFP did not have a seat in order to disseminate a book, magazine or newspaper.(https://www.traditioninaction.org/bev/bevimages(200-249)/bev233_plaza.jpg)1: The site where Garcia Moreno was killed in the plaza; 2: The Convent of the Immaculate ConceptionOne of these caravans with Brazilian members was passing through Ecuador, and, even though Quito was not on its planned route, the group decided to stop at La Plaza Grande (the historical center of Quito) to make a campaign in front of the site where Garcia Moreno had been murdered in order to honor that valiant Catholic hero.
They had no idea that the Convent of the Immaculate Conception was on the corner of that Plaza. They looked upon the stop as an impromptu adventure, since these Brazilians did not speak Spanish well and the magazine they were disseminating was in Portuguese. Those facts did not concern them; they were there to pay homage to that great hero whom they admired.
During the campaign they offered the magazine to two nuns who were standing on the corner of the Plaza attentively watching them. The nuns responded, “Come inside, our Abbess wants to speak with you.”
They graciously complied, and the Abbess asked if they could carry down the Statue of Our Lady of Good Success from the Convent’s choir to the Church because it was the date that she should descend but the nuns did not have men to help them with the arduous task. They accepted. Shortly afterwards, when the campaign ended, they entered the Convent and carried down the Statue. This was the beginning.
Later, we learned that Mother Mariana had left a prophecy with this instruction: “When the Franciscans will refuse to carry down the Statue, send two nuns to the corner of La Plaza Grande and there they will find the ones who will replace them.” In fact, some days before, the Franciscans had sent an excuse to the Convent stating they could not bring the Statue down because they had to attend a Liberation Theology meeting.
Praying for Plinio Corrêa de Oliveira
Soon after this incident a TFP seat was established in Quito, without any special link to the Convent or Our Lady of Good Success. The nuns, however, often would send ladies who were their friends with messages to the TFP members asking them to come to the Convent to show them photos of their campaigns.(https://www.traditioninaction.org/bev/bevimages(200-249)/bev233_Plinio.jpg)Nuns in the Convent were praying by name for Prof. Plinio since the 1930sIn one of these screen projection shows, two or three members of the TFP were in the front near the screen with the cloistered nuns seated behind them, out of the sight of the young men. In a photo of one campaign where Prof. Plinio appeared in a large group of persons, one nun walked up the hallway of the room to the screen and, on her own initiative, pointed to a person, saying, “This one is Dr. Plinio Corrêa de Oliveira.”
And she actually was right on target. That nun was Mother Francisca de los Angeles, the novice mistress.
How did Mother Francisca know about Dr. Plinio? At that time no one could explain the episode; today we know that Mother Francisca de los Angeles had been praying by name for Plinio Corrêa de Oliveira since the 1940s without knowing him personally. The word spread in the Convent that she had received the task to pray for him directly from Our Lady.
Other old nuns at that Convent, whose names I will not reveal now, have affirmed that Our Lady appeared to them in the 1930s and asked them to pray namely for Plinio Corrêa de Oliveira. At that time Prof. Plinio was a young man in his 20s or 30s, a Brazilian who, naturally speaking, would have been completely unknown to these religious women of Quito.
Official request
In 1978 Mother Rosario, then Abbess of the Convent, sent an ambassador to São Paulo – Mr. Luis Fernando Chiriboga Ushina – to deliver a letter to Prof. Plinio. In that letter, which was also signed by all the nuns of the Convent, she officially asked “in the name of Our Lady and mine” for him to provide men to bring down the Statue of Our Lady of Good Success from “now until the end of the world.”(https://www.traditioninaction.org/bev/bevimages(200-249)/bev233_transfer.jpg)TFP members make the transfer of Our Lady at the request of the ConventOut of courtesy, Prof. Plinio sent back an amiable response, also official, accepting the mission and thanking Mother Rosario for her trust.
From then on, every time a new Abbess took power, one of Prof. Plinio’s followers would go to her and ask whether or not she wanted to renew that invitation. Until now, all Abbesses have done so by means of a signed docuмent.
Last January this agreement was broken by the present day Abbess, under the pressure of the SSPX’ Agent, La Capitana and Arch. Travez, as I showed in my last article (https://www.traditioninaction.org/bev/232bev05_24_2019.htm#capitana).
These are some facts that I want to record in order to show that the task of bringing the Statue down from the upper choir to the Church was never an initiative or demand made by the TFP or the followers of Prof. Plinio, but rather it was an explicit request of the nuns themselves of the Convent.
With this said, I close the series of articles on the usurpation the SSPX is trying to make in the Convent of the Immaculate Conception in Quito through bribes, intrigues and calumnies.(https://www.traditioninaction.org/bev/bevimages(200-249)/bev233_ol.jpg)
Other old nuns at that Convent, whose names I will not reveal now, have affirmed that Our Lady appeared to them in the 1930s and asked them to pray namely for Plinio Corrêa de Oliveira.
Can’t really trust anyone or any group anymore.
Problem Three:
For a letter purportedly from a hostile president of the TFP organization from which Atila is, supposedly being cut off, it is surprisingly full of praise for Atila:
This is from:
“The Letter of the President of the TFP to Atila Sinke Guimarães, November 20, 1997
. . . Very dear Mr. Atila, because of your elevation of sights, your gifts of intelligence, your energy and, above all, the many graces that Our Lady has poured over you, you have a great role to carry out in the Counter-Revolution and in the TFP. . . I take leave with inalterable esteem.”
Thats. Just. Odd.
All this bickering is unhealthy too.
Átila Sinke Guimarães wants his readers to believe that "Our Lady" appeared to "Mother Francisca de los Angeles, the novice mistress" in Quito "in the 1930s" to ask her to pray for his semi-god, Plínio Corrêa de Oliveira:
More delirious nonsense from TIA:
Source: https://www.traditioninaction.org/bev/233bev05_28_2019.htm (https://www.traditioninaction.org/bev/233bev05_28_2019.htm)
Problem One:
Why did Atila fight so hard to remain attached to TFP?
Plinio Correa de Oliveira’s group, TFP, was condemned by the Catholic Church in Brazil and Venezuala.
...
...
...
Thats. Just. Odd.
So because TIA is associated with nutt people 20 years ago, and because TIA isn't run by a cleric, that means that everything they do is tainted. Every article they write is bad. Every program is wrong.
Got it. Makes sense.
It's just odd, Cera, that you only chose certain messages to refute, but not mine --- because you couldn't.
You know the TFP is doing good works for God and Our Lady, that's why you couldn't refute my messages. You only presented the "condemnations" of some bishops, but we already know how bad some bishops have become after Vatican Council II.
Mr Taylor Marshall recently even published the book "Infiltration" which exposes the infiltration of communists into the Church. Being a bishop and cardinal today doesn't guarantee a person is loyal to the Church. So he TFP being condemned by some bishops does not proof the TFP is anti-Catholic.
How anti-Catholic is the TFP?? Is it anti-Catholic to promote the Rosary? Is it anti-Catholic to fight against abortion? Is it anti-Catholic to fight against same sex marriage? Is it anti-Catholic to promote "True devotion to Mary"?
The cordial relations of both Atila Guimarães and Marian Horvat with TFP ceased
Struthio, your response in no way answered my comment.
Can’t really trust anyone or any group anymore.
That's exactly the outcome that the devil wants !
"Divide and Conquer" is his favourite tactic.
He wants to see divisions among Catholics, he love to see Catholics fighting Catholics, and Catholic organisations splitting.
Well, you didn't say anything I would have to answer.
Look Pax Vobis: Átila is inventing apparitions of Our Lady to further his Plínio-cult.Does that mean that the entire TIA organization is corrupt? No. +Fellay lied and manipulated the entire sspx when he used the millions of rosaries said for the consecration of Russia to further his agenda with new-rome by saying Our Lady had obtained the excommunication removals. This is just as blasphemous. Do +Fellay's actions mean that every sspx priest is corrupt? No.
Aren't you able to read and grasp the situation?
That's an argument against Lefebvre and an argument against Plínio. Both created organisations that split Catholics from the conciliar mainstream (which both later split further).
Does that mean that the entire TIA organization is corrupt? No. +Fellay lied and manipulated the entire sspx when he used the millions of rosaries said for the consecration of Russia to further his agenda with new-rome by saying Our Lady had obtained the excommunication removals. This is just as blasphemous. Do +Fellay's actions mean that every sspx priest is corrupt? No.
My whole point is that you cannot write-off an entire organization just because leadership is bad. Should you be cautious? Yes. Should you spread awareness of the bad acts? Yes. Should you challenge the bad leadership? Yes. But life is all about taking the good and ignoring the bad. Christ told us the wheat and the chaff will always be growing together. It's unavoidable.
I didn't say anything with respect to the questions you ask. You make up questions and make it appear, as if I had answered them positively, and then you answer them negatively. But I had neither asked them nor answered them at all.Your posts are filled with implications and subtle allegations. Be a man and speak clearly, if you don’t want your words to be misunderstood.
Your posts are filled with implications and subtle allegations. Be a man and speak clearly, if you don’t want your words to be misunderstood.
Be a man and speak clearly, if you don’t want your words to be misunderstood.
Which parts of my comments are not clear?1. Your first post on this thread was: "The devil loves blasphemy."
1. Your first post on this thread was: "The devil loves blasphemy."
---This implies that someone committed this act, yet you provide no context and let the reader assume.
2. Your 2nd comment was: "Átila G. didn't care about any condemnation. Therefore the condemnations fall on him."
---How do you know he doesn't care about the condemnation? Because he didn't tell you personally? Because he didn't tell a friend you have who knows Atila? If you have facts to show your accusation is founded, then provide them. Do you have a letter or something where he said this? If not, you are judging Atila's interior disposition, which is not allowed and which is petty.
.
3. Your 3rd comment was: "Átila Sinke Guimarães wants to make people believe in a ludicrous tale of an apparition of Our Lady in Quito elevating Plínio Corrêa de Oliveira to semi-god status."
---The problem with your statement is that you insert the overly-emotional phrase "semi-god status" into your accusation. You are espousing belief in an apparition as akin to people worshipping a man. Are you saying that the TFP is similar to Jose Escriva's "Opus Dei"? There's lots of tales that make that group sound like a cult too. I've personally encountered multiple sspx families who spoke of +ABL as if he were the greatest saint in the last 100 years. They had pictures of him all over their house and it was very weird. They also believe that +ABL is part of prophecy and there are even a few "seers" who say +ABL and/or +Fellay will "save the church". Is this uncatholic behavior +ABL's fault? No.
.
In my opinion, this hero-worship is uncatholic, but it's also understandable. It's normal human behavior to admire one's heroes and especially when such heroes lived during a hero-less world. Do many people take things too far? Of course. Do many actions go to the extreme? Absolutely. Does this mean the hero encourages such "worship"? Some do, some don't and to varying degrees. (Popularity and power are strong psychological drugs, which is why many prostitute themselves in Hollywood.)
.
The problem I have with your posts is you are accusing the TFP of being a cult who encourages such uncatholic actions and with no proof. You take the actions of hero-worshipers and instead of blaming them, you blame the leaders. Charging someone with anti-Catholic hero-worship is one thing; charging someone with promoting a cult and claiming they are a "semi-god" is quite another. There's ample proof for the former, but not for the latter.
As you have demonstrated in your first point, you haven't even read, what I have written in this thread.
O grande Moisés, com sua sarça ardente no alto do Sinai, não me faz inveja. Pois, se ele ali se relacionou com Deus durante quarenta dias, eu me relaciono com Doutor Plinio há trinta e três anos. E, em tais relações, vejo talvez mais a presença divina do que ele ante o sagrado arbusto. E guardo a esperança de ainda vencer o Profeta nesta tertúlia, quando eu passar do atual degredo para a Pátria.
The great Moses with his burning bush on the top of Sinai does not make me jealous. For if he were there with God for 40 days, I have been with Dr. Plinio for 33 years. And in this relationship I see, perhaps, more of the divine presence than he before the sacred bush. And I guard the hope that I still may win the dispute with this Prophet when I shall pass from this exile to the Fatherland.
Why would it matter if Cera explained why she is so concerned about TIA/TFP/Guimaraes/Plinio? At the end of the day, the question still remains: you and the others have not addressed the relevant problems at hand. Instead, you focus solely on those who take issue with TIA/TFP/Guimaraes/Plinio.Hi Meg,
Yes, Atila was Slave # 11.
We do know without a doubt that there was a segment of Brazilian TFP members who decided to call themselves slaves of Plinio or the slightly less offensive but still disordered Slaves of Our Lady through the hands of Plinio. I don't know how large the faction was and now that I'm looking over it again, I can't say Atila was definitely one of them
One more thing that bugs me about Atila's inside sources regarding the recent Quito affair is that I can't imagine anyone offering the sort of information he claims to have received unless his contact was an actual nun (or nuns) within the convent itself. If true, this would in theory be a major departure for what Mother Mariana envisioned for the sisters, as would be having a group of laymen enter the convent in order to carry the statue in the first place. It may also indicate a real "La Capitana" with a mouth to his ear. If that sounds extreme, Atila's actions warrant the speculation.You raise good points and mention one possibility regarding Atila's purported source of information --
Átila Sinke Guimarães wants to make people believe in a ludicrous tale of an apparition of Our Lady in Quito elevating Plínio Corrêa de Oliveira to semi-god status.I am unable to find any information on Arautos do Evangelho which is in English. Can you point me in that direction?
I want to remind readers that Plínio Corrêa de Oliveira has been worshipped before by TFP and Arautos do Evangelho.
Simple explanation: After the death of Plínio, the TFP split into two parts fighting each other. They even went to court.Yes, and more specifically TFP got the name but no money.
Guimarães and Horvat later split from one of the two.
But all venerate or worship Plínio.
That's exactly the outcome that the devil wants !Yes, and that is why the enemy is behind the "heretical sect," as Bishop Mayer called TFP . They are the "controlled opposition."
"Divide and Conquer" is his favourite tactic.
He wants to see divisions among Catholics, he love to see Catholics fighting Catholics, and Catholic organisations splitting.
Átila thinks that God is "more present" in Plínio Corrêa de Oliveira than in the sacred burning bush.Great point Struthio. Illegitimi non carborundum. Those who belong to the heretical sect/ cult of personality in question are taught that good Catholics who are not members of their heretical cult are to be despised as "white heretics."
That's the way, Átila presents himself and his Plínio.
You raise good points and mention one possibility regarding Atila's purported source of information --
"I can't imagine anyone offering the sort of information he claims to have received unless his contact was an actual nun (or nuns) within the convent itself."
Other possibilities are:
Atila or his proxy bugged the convent.
Atila made an elaborate "mental reservation" and manufactured his source in the service of what he personally believes to be a greater good.
Somebody asked a question about the so-called "sacred slavery" of Atila to his slave master Plinio. I answered his question with the original source material. Your problem is with the facts, not with me.
Trad -granny... tell me the truth now.
Is your PhD in the Microsoft cut & paste tool?
(https://proxy.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Ftse2.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DOIP.0-Zrhnn8da4WyU2hWSuYUQHaHy%26pid%3DApi&f=1)
How many times are you going to cut & paste that same old trash?
Can't you do something else?
My goodness ! :farmer:
So the Bishop said TFP mistrusts the clergy....
I am unable to find any information on Arautos do Evangelho which is in English. Can you point me in that direction?
You guys make it sound like Plino and Atila are the 2nd coming of Charles Manson and Jim Jones.
A. Do you really think they are that dangerous?
B. Or are they just extreme Trads who, in the vacuum of V2, with the lack of catholic leadership from orthodox clerics (who were/are too busy with chapels, schools and traveling to help with lay Catholic Action), started an organization to do good, but which has veered off course (in some but not all areas)?
Haha. Another dodge. You have trouble answering direct questions, don’t you?
This is just as blasphemous. Do +Fellay's actions mean that every sspx priest is corrupt? No.
In case you're interested in my opinion: Yes, every priest who would not speak up against blasphemous acts of his superior is corrupt.
Ok, you’ve answered 1 question directly and dodged only 3-4 others. Congrats!
Secondly, the blasphemies you’ve spoken of are related to an individual, not the TIA as a whole. This is the distinction I’m making but you continue in “all or nothing” thinking. You refuse to admit any gray area. You’re as extreme as you claim Plino/Atila are. Quite humorous, in a sad way.
Plínio is presented as a divine being on the TIA website. You and other TIA followers should make Átila and Marian stop doing so.Would you kindly give me a link to illustrate the first statement?
But you are corrupt and choose to attack me and not Átila/TIA. You choose to side with blasphemy and to fight against those who denounce it.
Would you kindly give me a link to illustrate the first statement?
Plínio is presented as a divine being on the TIA website. You and other TIA followers should make Átila and Marian stop doing so.
But you are corrupt and choose to attack me and not Átila/TIA. You choose to side with blasphemy and to fight against those who denounce it.
Hi Meg,
I've previously explained why I am concerned about the Plinio- worshiping cults.
1. Because I too got taken in by TIA's appearance of Catholicity.
2. And because when I began to research deeper into the writings of Atila and Marian, I realized that although they pretended to have left TFP, they had never left the Plinio- worshiping, anti-clerical parts of it.
3. And because when I looked even deeper, I learned just how evil all of the Plinio-worshiping groups are. TFP was condemned by its local Bishop, by the Bishops of Brazil and by the civil authorities of two South American nations for child- trafficking (not sɛҳuąƖ trafficking, but removing boys from access to their parents.)
4. And because as I continued to research, I learned that Marion's brother runs the TFP in the Pennsylvania and that the truly loony Plinio- worshiping group Heralds of the Gospel is now headquartered in Houston. They say that Plinio is in heaven at the right side of the Holy Virgin and that St. Michael the Archangel is his own personal guardian angel.
5. And as I continued to research, I learned that America Needs Fatima, a project of the TFP, says that the consecration of Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary has already been done. ANF is the Novus Ordo branch of TFP. A former member of TFP says "We always said 'When TFP needs money, America Needs Fatima'."
And much more . . .
https://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/f159_Defense_Port.htm
https://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/Internet_Files/F159_Defesa-Port.pdf
https://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/f142_Defense.htm
https://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/Internet_Files/F142_Defense_Eng.pdf
Átila thinks that God is "more present" in Plínio Corrêa de Oliveira than in the sacred burning bush.
That's the way, Átila presents himself and his Plínio.
From post above:
Atila wrote:
"The great Moses with his burning bush on the top of Sinai does not make me jealous. For if he were with God for 40 days, I have been with Plinio for 33 years. And in this relationship I see, perhaps, more of the divine presence than he before the sacred bush. And I guard hope that I may win the dispute with this prophet when I shall pass from this exile into the fatherland."
:o
In addition to the strange comparison of Plinio to Moses, and Atila seeming to think that Plinio was greater than Moses (or maybe greater than the burning bush?), I find it odd that Atila would refer to heaven as the "Fatherland."
Is referring to heaven as the "Fatherland" an actual Catholic thing to do? I've not ever heard of Heaven being referred to as thus, but maybe it has been, and I've just not seen it. It kind of has that pagan "Odin" type of connotation to it, from Norse pagan mythology.
:confused:
Organic Society and the Desire for Heaven
Plinio Corrêa de Oliveira
Since this earth is a land of exile, it was made to not satisfy us entirely. If it could do so, it would not be an exile, but a kind of second fatherland, more like the magnificent fatherland God prepared for us in heavenly Paradise.
The One, is a "Father" of the intelligible (En. V, 8, 1). In the absolutely Transcendent is "the fatherland from which we originate and our Father is there" (En I, 6, 8). "The Father" is a common name for the Supreme Being with the Gnostics.
Frankly, I've never heard Plino's name until all these threads. I've heard of Atila but only because he's alive.
If Plino and Atilia are blasphemers and nut jobs, ok. Does that affect all the other people who write articles on their site?
What evidence do you have that everyone who writes for TIA is supports Plino 100%? Can they not be writing just for support of the Faith? Your view presupposes that most articles include Plino or Atila in some reference, which isn’t the case. Most articles are about the Faith, not these 2 gentlemen.
Thanks for the information. I have not seen it before. You were directly involved with the TFP organization, then?What I said was:
What I said was:
"Because I too got taken in by TIA's appearance of Catholicity."
How can you extrapolate so incorrectly from that? I was never directly involved with either cult organization. By "taken in," I mean that like others here, I too once thought they were a good Catholic group.
If Joe Blow writes an article on TIA about St Francis and the Christmas Crib, how is this affected by Plino and Atila?It. Is. Not.
In addition to the strange comparison of Plinio to Moses, and Atila seeming to think that Plinio was greater than Moses (or maybe greater than the burning bush?), I find it odd that Atila would refer to heaven as the "Fatherland."Hi Meg,
Is referring to heaven as the "Fatherland" an actual Catholic thing to do? I've not ever heard of Heaven being referred to as thus, but maybe it has been, and I've just not seen it. It kind of has that pagan "Odin" type of connotation to it, from Norse pagan mythology.
:confused:
It. Is. Not.So it's not affected but it is? Makes no sense.
Would you drink from a cup that had a dead tarantula floating in it?
If Joe Blow writes an article on TIA about St Francis and the Christmas Crib, how is this affected by Plino and Atila?
Meg (Jade), Cera (Trad granny) Struthio (Father Purdy?), in any case, all SSPX trolls posting here.
Their only game is too defame TIA and Atila.
Putting Purdy groupies on an open, Resistance forum is easy to do.
P.S.: The portuguese original of Átila is "patria", the translation by Marian Horvat has "Fatherland".Interesting.
So it's not affected but it is? Makes no sense.You suggested that if a website has mostly good information, we should simply ignore the heretical aspects which are a part of it.
It's amusing that you are the one doing exactly that of which you accuse others. You are habitually argumentative and post name-calling messages in order to disrupt this website and/or shut down anyone whose views differ from your own
Meg (Jade), Cera (Trad granny) Struthio (Father Purdy?), in any case, all SSPX trolls posting here.
Their only game is too defame TIA and Atila.
Putting Purdy groupies on an open, Resistance forum is easy to do.
It's pretty disgusting stuff to read. Deluded and blasphemous are the only words I have to describe it.
In January 2017, TIA hosted an Event celebrating [...]
Some of our supporters and friends present at that celebration asked us if they could read this Defense; others insisted that a translation of it to English should be available to the public. Dr. Marian Horvat accepted their suggestion and translated the docuмent from Portuguese to English.
Even though the Defense was written many years ago, it seems opportune to us to circulate it now [...]
Yes indeed. And the quotes have been translated into English and published again recently:
https://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/f142_Defense.htm
It's not that these blasphemies of Átila Sinke Guimarães are long forgotten.
I admit, I hadn't read the entire letter. I wasn't aware Atila crossed the line from veneration to fanaticism and blasphemy. While it's hard for me to believe Plinio wasn't aware of this, suffice to say this is enough to cast a permanent pall over Mr. Guimaraes' intentions for TIA as well as what he believes TFP ought to be.Thank you Croix for the brilliant exposition of their own words.
Atila Guimaraes https://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/Internet_Files/F142_Defense_Eng.pdf (https://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/Internet_Files/F142_Defense_Eng.pdf) pgs 36-37
"In the 51 years that I have roamed on this earth, I did not know a better image of God than my relationship with Dr. Plinio. Neither my admiration for Medieval Civilization, nor my enthusiasm for Chivalry or the magnificent architecture of the cathedrals, nor the elevated analysis of the organic regimes of yesteryear, nor my reverential respect for Charlemagne, nor the devotion I have to certain Saints – Michael the Archangel, Elias, Gregory VII, John the Evangelist, Augustine, Thomas Aquinas and especially Louis Grignion de Montfort, nor my complete affinity with the Holy Inquisition and the silent veneration that I pay to the mystery of the Liturgy(!) gave me anything comparable. Even the contemplation of God's plans in History, of which I am an aficionado admirer, did not bring me the broadness of panoramas and the sense of the divine that my relationship with Dr. Plinio provided.
Not that such a relationship was perfect on my part – far be it from me to hold such pretensions – but on his part it was. And since there are certain supernatural realities that are expressed only in a relationship, the fact that they were perfect on his part and that I did not oppose great resistance to him on my part, they could flow normally, reflecting what God wanted them to reflect for me and, perhaps, also for Dr. Plinio. It was through such a relationship that I learned the true love for the Catholic Church, which he taught me to venerate with all my soul.
"It was through this means that I came to know Wisdom, reflected in him, but in so translucent a way that in him I could glimpse the Eternal Wisdom, the Subsistent Truth, the Second Person of the Holy Trinity. It was through this means that I understood Grandeur – a man who assumes everything good that existed in History and, by declaring himself in the state of counter-attack, causes the good of the past to be reborn and opens the doors of the future.
It was through my relationship with him that I understood Magnanimity, this new name for the love of God by which the bountifulness of the superior naturally leads to the detachment and joy of the inferior. A virtue that makes it easy to understand what was and what is the disinterest of the Good Shepherd who gives His life for His sheep. It was in my relationship with him that I discovered Holy Wrath against the enemies of the Catholic name, a wrath proper to those truly innocent men, true lovers of the Holy City. Here also I understood what Courage is, a lofty, elevated and disdainful fearlessness in face of the bad, the revolutionary, the conspirators who plot the destruction of Christendom. It was in him that I learned what certainty of victory is and, in a word, the unshakeable certainty of the full realization of his vocation and, permit me to say, of mine as well.
This relationship, with which Our Lady and he wanted to reward me, is sacred to me. The great Moses with his burning bush on the top of Sinai does not make me jealous. For if he were there with God for 40 days, I have been with Dr. Plinio for 33 years. And in this relationship I see, perhaps, more of the divine presence than he before the sacred bush. And I guard the hope that I still may win the dispute with this Prophet when I shall pass from this exile to the Fatherland."
Come on guys. Incred, Pax, do you really find this acceptable? You don't have to agree with everything I'm saying, or Cera or Meg, and you don't have to give an inch to the SSPX, but can't you see how wrong this is? It's pretty disgusting stuff to read. Deluded and blasphemous are the only words I have to describe it. If the previous accusations against the TFP were out and out lies, I certainly wouldn't consider them exaggerations any more.
Atila could have used any other occasion to criticize the SSPX openly, yet he chose to take a stand over TFP of all things. More specifically, his version of TFP which carries with it every appearance of cult-like devotion in light of his departing letter. His "vision."
Quote from: (https://www.cathinfo.com/index.php?topic=52669.msg659825#msg659825)Atila Guimaraes https://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/Internet_Files/F142_Defense_Eng.pdf (https://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/Internet_Files/F142_Defense_Eng.pdf) pg 36
However, Mr. President, the point that struck me regarding your omissions, which I found especially bitter to note, was the oblivion I noted in your letter of my right to keep in its entirety the noble vision of Dr. Plinio that Our Lady gave me.
Could it have anything to do with Atila's reference to the TFP as being the Apostles prophesied by St. Montfort?
Quote from: (https://www.cathinfo.com/index.php?topic=52669.msg659825#msg659825)Atila Guimaraes https://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/Internet_Files/F142_Defense_Eng.pdf (https://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/Internet_Files/F142_Defense_Eng.pdf) pg 36
If we turn to the prophetic predictions of St. Louis Maria Grignion de Montfort in his Fire Prayer, we find a description of the current panorama. "Fire! Fire! Fire in the House of God!" Who are the men who will come to rescue her? Were they not we? Was this not one of the noblest hopes
that inflamed the expectations of the best among us in the finest hours of our vocation? Didn't Dr. Plinio believe that the Congregation of the Apostles of the Latter Times [predicted by St. Louis] was founded on May 18, 1967 [when our consecration of slaves of Our Lady was made]?
Does anyone want to hazard a guess as to what a "manifestation" of Plinio means?
Quote from: (https://www.cathinfo.com/index.php?topic=52669.msg659825#msg659825)Atila Guimaraes https://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/Internet_Files/F142_Defense_Eng.pdf (https://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/Internet_Files/F142_Defense_Eng.pdf) pg 33
First, because Dr. Plinio having promised that he would not abandon us, he did not abandon us. Second, because he said, "If I die, look for where I will be manifesting myself, and I will guide you there." This means that we should look for where he is. Obeying him, I looked for him. Others will have found him in various places. I found him in the fight; this is where I noted his manifestation and, perhaps, as I believe, others will also find him there.
Am I the only one getting the sense that these guys are puffing themselves up to burst?
Quote from: (https://www.cathinfo.com/index.php?topic=52669.msg659825#msg659825)Plinio Correa https://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/Internet_Files/F142_Defense_Eng.pdf (https://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/Internet_Files/F142_Defense_Eng.pdf) pg 33
"I became a Crusader. That is, a man different from all men. Because Our Lord Jesus Christ, Who is the perfection of all things and Who is the fulfillment of the most perfect things, Our Lord Jesus Christ will now be avenged by me. I will perform the beauty of the revenge, of the fight for the fight, of the revenge for the revenge of Christ Our Lord for Christ Our Lord."
Oh will you, Plinio? Which posthumous manifestation where you planning to send? If anyone is so blinded by their hatred of the SSPX that they will defend this lunacy or pretend it doesn't exist, deserves to have their powers of judgment questioned.
Oh, let me guess... it was the polyglot Fr. Purdy who translated it...
O grande Moisés, com sua sarça ardente no alto do Sinai, não me faz inveja. Pois, se ele ali se relacionou com Deus durante quarenta dias, eu me relaciono com Doutor Plinio há trinta e três anos. E, em tais relações, vejo talvez mais a presença divina do que ele ante o sagrado arbusto. E guardo a esperança de ainda vencer o Profeta nesta tertúlia, quando eu passar do atual degredo para a Pátria.
The great Moses with his burning bush on the top of Sinai does not make me jealous. For if he were there with God for 40 days, I have been with Dr. Plinio for 33 years. And in this relationship I see, perhaps, more of the divine presence than he before the sacred bush. And I guard the hope that I still may win the dispute with this Prophet when I shall pass from this exile to the Fatherland.
Dear Incred,
Oh, let me guess... it was the polyglot Fr. Purdy who translated it...
But Cera honors him? [Cardinal Newman]
She detests TIA because they researched Cardinal Newman extensively and found his cause for Canonization wanting.
I admit, I hadn't read the entire letter. I wasn't aware Atila crossed the line from veneration to fanaticism and blasphemy. While it's hard for me to believe Plinio wasn't aware of this, suffice to say this is enough to cast a permanent pall over Mr. Guimaraes' intentions for TIA as well as what he believes TFP ought to be.I nominate this post as BEST POST OF THE YEAR.
Atila Guimaraes https://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/Internet_Files/F142_Defense_Eng.pdf (https://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/Internet_Files/F142_Defense_Eng.pdf) pgs 36-37
"In the 51 years that I have roamed on this earth, I did not know a better image of God than my relationship with Dr. Plinio. Neither my admiration for Medieval Civilization, nor my enthusiasm for Chivalry or the magnificent architecture of the cathedrals, nor the elevated analysis of the organic regimes of yesteryear, nor my reverential respect for Charlemagne, nor the devotion I have to certain Saints – Michael the Archangel, Elias, Gregory VII, John the Evangelist, Augustine, Thomas Aquinas and especially Louis Grignion de Montfort, nor my complete affinity with the Holy Inquisition and the silent veneration that I pay to the mystery of the Liturgy(!) gave me anything comparable. Even the contemplation of God's plans in History, of which I am an aficionado admirer, did not bring me the broadness of panoramas and the sense of the divine that my relationship with Dr. Plinio provided.
Not that such a relationship was perfect on my part – far be it from me to hold such pretensions – but on his part it was. And since there are certain supernatural realities that are expressed only in a relationship, the fact that they were perfect on his part and that I did not oppose great resistance to him on my part, they could flow normally, reflecting what God wanted them to reflect for me and, perhaps, also for Dr. Plinio. It was through such a relationship that I learned the true love for the Catholic Church, which he taught me to venerate with all my soul.
"It was through this means that I came to know Wisdom, reflected in him, but in so translucent a way that in him I could glimpse the Eternal Wisdom, the Subsistent Truth, the Second Person of the Holy Trinity. It was through this means that I understood Grandeur – a man who assumes everything good that existed in History and, by declaring himself in the state of counter-attack, causes the good of the past to be reborn and opens the doors of the future.
It was through my relationship with him that I understood Magnanimity, this new name for the love of God by which the bountifulness of the superior naturally leads to the detachment and joy of the inferior. A virtue that makes it easy to understand what was and what is the disinterest of the Good Shepherd who gives His life for His sheep. It was in my relationship with him that I discovered Holy Wrath against the enemies of the Catholic name, a wrath proper to those truly innocent men, true lovers of the Holy City. Here also I understood what Courage is, a lofty, elevated and disdainful fearlessness in face of the bad, the revolutionary, the conspirators who plot the destruction of Christendom. It was in him that I learned what certainty of victory is and, in a word, the unshakeable certainty of the full realization of his vocation and, permit me to say, of mine as well.
This relationship, with which Our Lady and he wanted to reward me, is sacred to me. The great Moses with his burning bush on the top of Sinai does not make me jealous. For if he were there with God for 40 days, I have been with Dr. Plinio for 33 years. And in this relationship I see, perhaps, more of the divine presence than he before the sacred bush. And I guard the hope that I still may win the dispute with this Prophet when I shall pass from this exile to the Fatherland."
Come on guys. Incred, Pax, do you really find this acceptable? You don't have to agree with everything I'm saying, or Cera or Meg, and you don't have to give an inch to the SSPX, but can't you see how wrong this is? It's pretty disgusting stuff to read. Deluded and blasphemous are the only words I have to describe it. If the previous accusations against the TFP were out and out lies, I certainly wouldn't consider them exaggerations any more.
Atila could have used any other occasion to criticize the SSPX openly, yet he chose to take a stand over TFP of all things. More specifically, his version of TFP which carries with it every appearance of cult-like devotion in light of his departing letter. His "vision."
Quote from: (https://www.cathinfo.com/index.php?topic=52669.msg659825#msg659825)Atila Guimaraes https://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/Internet_Files/F142_Defense_Eng.pdf (https://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/Internet_Files/F142_Defense_Eng.pdf) pg 36
However, Mr. President, the point that struck me regarding your omissions, which I found especially bitter to note, was the oblivion I noted in your letter of my right to keep in its entirety the noble vision of Dr. Plinio that Our Lady gave me.
Could it have anything to do with Atila's reference to the TFP as being the Apostles prophesied by St. Montfort?
Quote from: (https://www.cathinfo.com/index.php?topic=52669.msg659825#msg659825)Atila Guimaraes https://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/Internet_Files/F142_Defense_Eng.pdf (https://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/Internet_Files/F142_Defense_Eng.pdf) pg 36
If we turn to the prophetic predictions of St. Louis Maria Grignion de Montfort in his Fire Prayer, we find a description of the current panorama. "Fire! Fire! Fire in the House of God!" Who are the men who will come to rescue her? Were they not we? Was this not one of the noblest hopes
that inflamed the expectations of the best among us in the finest hours of our vocation? Didn't Dr. Plinio believe that the Congregation of the Apostles of the Latter Times [predicted by St. Louis] was founded on May 18, 1967 [when our consecration of slaves of Our Lady was made]?
Does anyone want to hazard a guess as to what a "manifestation" of Plinio means?
Quote from: (https://www.cathinfo.com/index.php?topic=52669.msg659825#msg659825)Atila Guimaraes https://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/Internet_Files/F142_Defense_Eng.pdf (https://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/Internet_Files/F142_Defense_Eng.pdf) pg 33
First, because Dr. Plinio having promised that he would not abandon us, he did not abandon us. Second, because he said, "If I die, look for where I will be manifesting myself, and I will guide you there." This means that we should look for where he is. Obeying him, I looked for him. Others will have found him in various places. I found him in the fight; this is where I noted his manifestation and, perhaps, as I believe, others will also find him there.
Am I the only one getting the sense that these guys are puffing themselves up to burst?
Quote from: (https://www.cathinfo.com/index.php?topic=52669.msg659825#msg659825)Plinio Correa https://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/Internet_Files/F142_Defense_Eng.pdf (https://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/Internet_Files/F142_Defense_Eng.pdf) pg 33
"I became a Crusader. That is, a man different from all men. Because Our Lord Jesus Christ, Who is the perfection of all things and Who is the fulfillment of the most perfect things, Our Lord Jesus Christ will now be avenged by me. I will perform the beauty of the revenge, of the fight for the fight, of the revenge for the revenge of Christ Our Lord for Christ Our Lord."
Oh will you, Plinio? Which posthumous manifestation where you planning to send? If anyone is so blinded by their hatred of the SSPX that they will defend this lunacy or pretend it doesn't exist, deserves to have their powers of judgment questioned.
I nominate this post as BEST POST OF THE YEAR.Thank you for the compliment, I'm glad it helped.
Thank you again, Croix.
Essas palavras de Átila Sinke Guimarães patenteiam o orgulho fanático dos sequazes de Plínio. A sarça ardente é figura da Encarnação do Verbo, da presença da luz de Deus no seio de Nossa Senhora. É figura da união hipostática: o Verbo de Deus encarnado em Jesus Cristo. É figura da Igreja, humanamente fraca como a sarça, que se consome ardente de amor a Deus, na História, enquanto Deus fala por meio dela. Para os fanáticos da TFP e dos Arautos, Deus estaria mais presente em Plínio que na sarça ardente. Portanto, Deus estaria mais presente em Plínio do que em Cristo, Deus e homem; do que me Maria Santíssima; do que na Igreja. Em Plínio, haveria uma presença de Deus única.montfort.org.br (http://www.montfort.org.br/bra/cadernos/religiao/pco-i/)
These words of Átila Sinke Guimarães make the fanatical pride of the followers of Plínio patent. The burning bush is a figure of the incarnation of the Word, of the presence of the light of God in the bosom of Our Lady. It's a figure of the hypostatic union: the Word of God incarnate in Jesus Christ. It's a figure of the Church, humanly weak like the bush, which is being consumed by the burning of love to God, in history, while God speaks through it. For the fanatics of the TFP and of the Arautos, God would be more present in Plínio than in the burning bush. Hence, God would be more present in Plínio than in Christ – God and man; more than in Maria Most Holy; more than in the Church. In Plínio, there would be a unique presence of God.
Orlando Fedeli (en.wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orlando_Fedeli)) is the most notorious critic of Plínio Corrêa de Oliveria. He had been a member of the TFP for decades, and he compiled witness accounts of members of the "inner sect" of the TFP and of other such sects lead by Plínio.Great research on your part and insight from Fedeli.
With respect to Átila Sinke Guimarães's personal "burning-bush-Pliniolatry", published in 1998, and recently published on TIA (https://www.cathinfo.com/sspx-resistance-news/warning-against-tia-de-oliveira-from-a-priest-who-knows-the-group-52583/msg659773/#msg659773) again, Orlando Fedeli explained:
montfort.org.br (http://www.montfort.org.br/bra/cadernos/religiao/pco-i/)
Here my translation (my mother tongue is neither Portuguese nor English):
These words of Átila Sinke Guimarães make the fanatical pride of the followers of Plínio patent. The burning bush is a figure of the incarnation of the Word, of the presence of the light of God in the bosom of Our Lady. It's a figure of the hypostatic union: the Word of God incarnate in Jesus Christ. It's a figure of the Church, humanly weak like the bush, which is being consumed by the burning of love to God, in history, while God speaks through it. For the fanatics of the TFP and of the Arautos, God would be more present in Plínio than in the burning bush. Hence, God would be more present in Plínio than in Christ – God and man; more than in Maria Most Holy; more than in the Church. In Plínio, there would be a unique presence of God.
Cera must have had very bad personal experience with the TFP / TIA, otherwise how could you explain her repeated and biased attacks on the TFP/ TIA?
Every faithful Catholic knows the TFP / TIA doesn't deserve the label "anti-Catholic", how much good they have done. Many famous faithful Catholics are their allies -- Bishop Schneider, Prof Roberto de Mattei, Michael Voris, J Henry Westen, etc.
I never detected any fanatical pride in TFP / TIA's published materials or videos. What did Cera base when she accused them of fanatical pride?? Or did Cera get treated badly (which she interpreted as "fanatical pride") when she encountered TFP members?
You [Cera] just should not attack the whole organisation when only some members did wrong.
Indeed. I have called Cera out to explain her history with the group and give us some insight why she despises them so much, but she has refused. She clearly has an agenda. It would be one thing to merely have a negative opinion of the group. You would make a post or two and then move along to other subjects. But Cera seems absolutely obsessed with attacking TFP / TIA. I have known over the years quite a few members of the American TFP, and they have all been fine, devoted, dedicated Catholics, and they have never given me the impression of any cult-like devotion to Plinio or his mother.There was/is a man called F.John Loughnan, a former SSPXer, who would rant incessantly like this on the Net against Abp Lefebvre and the SSPX. Lefebvre himself would carry relics of his mother.
You just should not attack the whole organisation when only some members did wrong.Hi Alan,
He said God is less important than the founder of TIA's parent organization TFP.
Specifically:
The great Moses with his burning bush on the top of Sinai does not make me jealous. For if he were there with God for 40 days, I have been with Dr. Plinio for 33 years. And in this relationship I see, perhaps, more of the divine presence than he before the sacred bush. And I guard the hope that I still may win the dispute with this Prophet when I shall pass from this exile to the Fatherland.
What he's saying is that he may have had a greater experience of God in 33 years with Plinio than Moses did in 40 days by the burning bush. He's contrasting 33 years with 40 days, and a relationship with a burning bush.Evidently neither you nor Atila read the Bible. Moses did not spend 40 days with Almighty God.
Evidently neither you nor Atila read the Bible. Moses did not spend 40 days with Almighty God.
[12] And the Lord said to Moses: Come up to me into the mount, and be there: and I will give thee tables of stone, and the law, and the commandments which I have written: that thou mayst teach them. [13] Moses rose up, and his minister Josue: and Moses going up into the mount of God, [14] Said to the ancients: Wait ye here till we return to you. You have Aaron and Hur with you: if any question shall arise, you shall refer it to them. [15] And when Moses was gone up, a cloud covered the mount.[16] And the glory of the Lord dwelt upon Sinai, covering it with a cloud six days: and the seventh day he called him out of the midst of the cloud. [17] And the sight of the glory of the Lord was like a burning fire upon the top of the mount, in the eyes of the children of Israel. [18] And Moses, entering into the midst of the cloud, went up into the mountain: and he was there forty days, and forty nights.
101. That the Holy Spirit has frequently appeared in fire
In Exodus: "And the whole of Mount Sinai smoked, because God had come down upon it in fire." Also in the Acts of the Apostles"And suddenly there was made a sound from heaven, as if a vehement blast were borne along, and it filled the whole of that place in which they were sitting. And there appeared to them cloven tongues as if of fire, which also settled upon each of them; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost." Also in the sacrifices, whatsoever God accounted accepted, fire descended from heaven, which consumed what was sacrificed. In Exodus: "The angel of the Lord appeared in a flame of fire from the bush."
23.
(. . .)
Was it not God Who came down into the Mount? Or was it, perhaps, only by a fiction or an adoption, and not by right of nature, that He, Who did all this, bore the name of God? Mark the blare of the trumpets, the flashing of the torches, the clouds of smoke, as from a furnace, rolling over the mountain, the terror of conscious impotence on the part of man in the presence of God, the confession of the people, when they prayed Moses to be their spokesman, that at the voice of God they would die. Is He, in your judgment, not true God, when simple dread lest He should speak filled Israel with the fear of death? He Whose voice could not be borne by human weakness? In your eyes is He not God, because He addressed you through the weak faculties of a man, that you might hear, and live ? Moses entered the Mount; in forty days and nights he gained the knowledge of the mysteries of heaven, and set it all in order according to the vision of the truth which was revealed to him there. From intercourse with God, Who spoke with him, he received the reflected splendour of that glory on which none may gaze? His corruptible countenance was transfigured into the likeness of the unapproachable light of Him, with Whom he was dwelling. Of this God he bears witness, of this God he speaks; he summons the angels of God to come and worship Him amid the gladness of the Gentiles, and prays that the blessings which please Him may descend upon the head of Joseph. In face of such evidence as this, dare any man say that He has nothing but the name of God, and deny His true Divinity?
Anymore most Groups are dangerous. Novus ordo is a Masonic occult.
I think you mean to say Moses wasn't in the presence of the burning bush, specifically, for 40 days.You and Atila do not know the Bible and have accidentally conflated two different events.
You have created a false dichotomy: either SSPX is good and TIA is bad, or visa versa.
Cera pounds the drum about Dr. Plineo being a corrupt founder, but she purposely ignores the SSPX's founder's heretical statement.
You and Atila do not know the Bible and have accidentally conflated two different events.
. a detail which entirely misses the point.The point is that Atila G., the founder of TIA is a heretic who publicly stated:
Cera, you’re just plain wrong. You falsely and maliciously interpret Atila’s quote. You’re the one who doesn’t know the Old Testament.Please explain to me how this is not heresy:
A reasonable explanation was already provided by Ladislaus regarding this quote.No, Lad continued to make Plinio as God's equal by saying Atila was simply comparing 40 days to 33 years.
Anyone can take a few sentences out of context and make them appear crazy.I gave the link with the entire quote in context, which exposed Atila as even crazier.
A reasonable explanation was already provided by Ladislaus regarding this quote. Being that we are Catholics, we are REQUIRED by CHARITY to give our neighbor the benefit of the doubt.I'm delighted that you brought up charity. We are called to speak the truth with love, which I have done. I present credible docuмents and do not engage in personal attacks.
Did you watch the video in which Alexander Tschugguel is giving a talk at the TFP??
Didn't Cera say (or quote others) the TFP is anti Catholic and was founded by a heretic??
Then why did Alexander Tschugguel choose to give a talk there??
Other celebrities who are sympathetic to the TFP include:
- Bishop Athanasius Schneider
- Prof Roberto di Mattei
- Michael Voris
- John Henry Westen
- Charles Coulombe