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Traditional Catholic Faith => SSPX Resistance News => Topic started by: Matthew on June 24, 2019, 08:03:59 AM

Title: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Matthew on June 24, 2019, 08:03:59 AM
Warning from a Traditional Catholic priest familiar with the group:


Quote
In case you don’t know TIA is a branch of Tradition Family and Property founded by Plinio Correa de Oliveira in Brazil.

Bp de Castro Mayer, after supporting them, in 1983 publicly dissociated from this organization and condemned them, as they became a real sect evolving into a cult of their founder and esoteric practices.

I knew them very well in South America. They're dangerous!
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Incredulous on June 24, 2019, 08:22:56 AM


This is great information!

Who was the priest?

Why are they dangerous?

Did you know TIA and TFP have been separated for almost 20 years?  Their dispute is on allegiance to the Consiliar church.

And I suppose in all the debate, Bp. Castro Meyer is absolved from his signatures on the VII documents too?
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Last Tradhican on June 24, 2019, 10:12:12 AM
The SSPX is against Tradition in Action TIA and Atila Guimaraes and company because they publish articles EVERYDAY and publish books about what is really going on, the SSPX does no such thing. TIA publishes daily articles like this one today:

Francis honors Jeffrey Sachs at ecological meeting
Jeffrey Sachs, above, second from the left, is one of the main promoters of the UN's abortionist policies around the world. He holds UN titles such as director of the Sustainable Development Solutions Network (SDSN). He also serves as special advisor to the UN Secretary on the Millennium Development Goals (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millennium_Development_Goals).

He uses these positions to argue that, to prevent poverty and advance economic development, abortion and mass sterilization must be enforced by the UN in many countries through financial pressure and government policies.

 Further, Sachs is an economist who is a close collaborator with magnate George Soros. It is not rare that Sach's environmental initiatives bring substantial gains to Soros investments.

After Francis' inauguration, Sachs has received preferential treatment at the Vatican. He is habitually quoted as being one of the minds behind the Vatican ecological program, including the draft of Francis' Encyclical

(https://traditioninaction.org/bev/180bev07_31_2015.htm)
For full article see https://traditioninaction.org/RevolutionPhotos/A838-Sach.htm (https://traditioninaction.org/RevolutionPhotos/A838-Sach.htm)
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Meg on June 24, 2019, 01:00:04 PM
Did you know TIA and TFP have been separated for almost 20 years?  Their dispute is on allegiance to the Consiliar church.


I don't think that the separation is relevant. After all, both groups seem to have the same views about Plinio de Oliviera, don't they?
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Matthew on June 25, 2019, 12:08:52 AM
Here is a translation into English of the letter sent by Bp de Castro Mayer to a friend layman explaining in 1984 the grave reasons why he dissociated from the TFP the year before.

———-
LETTER OF BISHOP DE CASTRO MAYER ON THE TFP

(The following letter, addressed to a layman friend, dated 1984, was published in the Brazilian newspaper Folha da Manhã in 1991)

Dear N.,

I owe you an answer to your painful letter of September 24 [1984] that, as the postmark indicates, you sent me on September 25th.

In this case I can only give you one advice: pray, pray a lot, above all the [15 decade] Rosary or at least the [5 decade] Rosary, asking the Virgin Mother, Mediatrix of all graces, to enlighten her son and make him see that the TFP is a heretical sect because, in fact, although they do not say or write, the TFP lives and behaves according to a principle that fundamentally undermines the truth of Christendom, that is, of the Catholic Church.

Indeed, it is de fide that Jesus Christ founded His Church - designed to keep the true worship of God on earth and to bring souls to eternal salvation - as an unequal society composed of two classes: one that governs, teaches, and sanctifies, composed of members of the clergy, and another - the faithful - who receive the teaching, are governed and sanctified: This is a dogma de fide.

St. Pius X wrote that the Church is, in its own nature, an unequal society, meaning that it comprises two orders of persons: shepherds and flock, those belonging to the various levels of the hierarchy, and the multitude of the faithful. These two orders are so utterly distinct that only the hierarchy has the right and authority to guide and govern the members for the purposes of the Church, while the duty of the faithful is to let themselves to be governed and to obediently follow the given path by the ruling class. (Encyclical "Vehementer", February 11, 1906.) The whole history of the Church, as can be seen in the New Testament, attests to this truth as a fundamental dogma of the Church's constitution. It was only to the Apostles that Jesus said, "Go and teach all nations." Also the Acts of the Apostles show us the life of the Church in the times after Jesus Christ. Because of this, it is a heretical subversion to usually follow a layman - therefore a non-member of the Hierarchy - as a spokesman for orthodoxy. So they do not look at what the Church says, what the bishops say, but what this or that [layman] says... And it does not end there: this attitude - even if not openly stated - in fact positions the "leader" as the arbiter of orthodoxy, and is accompanied by a sudden but real mistrust of the hierarchy and clergy in general.

There is a visceral anti-clericalism in the TFP: everything that comes from the clergy is biasedly received. Basically, it is affirmed that all priests are ignorant, lacking zeal or interested and such other characteristics. Well, thus, having in mind the divine constitution of the Church which was instituted by Jesus Christ, the habitual anti-clericalism of the TFP, latent, makes it a heretical sect, and therefore, as I said, animated by a principle contrary to established dogma by Jesus Christ in the constitution of His Church.

The TFP, however, had a healthy beginning. There was a certain evolution in the apostolate made by the biweekly newspaper of the Marian Congregation of St. Cecilia entitled The Legionary.

As a serious and well-intentioned movement, it sought to strengthen the intellectual and religious formation of the members of the Congregation and, consequently, of the biweekly readers. It was influential throughout Brazil. This was the era of [its] obedience to Monsignors Duarte and Leme. I followed and approved of its apostolate, also when it began to fall itself into the anti-clerical spirit, which began by consolidating its positions and then reversing them, putting the Clergy in tow behind a charismatic layman with the monopoly of orthodoxy. Maybe I gave them support beyond a licit point. I withdrew it only when it became clear that my warnings were not being taken into account. They have become useless.

It is true to note that the deceptions of certain members of the Hierarchy... explain the scandal of the "TFPists", but this does not justify the positions they have taken. And much less for its leader, Plinio.

In this case, as I said at the beginning of this letter, the remedy is to pray. First, because without prayer nothing is obtained: "Ask," says Our Lord, "and you will receive." It is necessary to pray because charismatic fervor produces a certain fanaticism: individuals become incapable of seeing the objective reality, of perceiving even fundamental errors, because of this inversion of following a layman instead of the legitimate Pastors of the Holy Church. 
As I have noted, members of the hierarchy unfortunately and often utter words and take positions that any Catholic can see as dissonant of the doctrine and government of the Church of all times...

I ask Our Lord to give you, and your whole family, a Holy and Merry Christmas and many years full of the grace of God.

I pray that you pray for me, a servant in Christ Jesus.

Antônio de Castro Mayer, Bishop Emeritus of Campos.
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Francisco on June 25, 2019, 03:33:52 AM
Dear Atila Sinke Guimaraes
Please give up the TIA and join the SSPX ( or offshoots)
They Tarzan
You Dirt
Everybody else
Sedevacantists
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Incredulous on June 25, 2019, 08:41:15 AM
Dear Atila Sinke Guimaraes
Please give up the TIA and join the SSPX ( or offshoots)
They Tarzan
You Dirt
Everybody else
Sedevacantists


Atila needs new formation.


(https://proxy.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fmemegenerator.net%2Fimg%2Finstances%2F500x%2F67090986%2Fyou-got-to-git-your-mind-right-luke-my-mind-is-right-boss.jpg&f=1)

Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Incredulous on June 25, 2019, 08:53:57 AM



Atila is a scholar, a thinker and a writer.

He'd be valuable to Fr. Wegner's "Dutch Branding" company, to help write Bp. Fellay's pre-Canonization biography.
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Cera on June 25, 2019, 05:51:15 PM


Atila is a scholar, a thinker and a writer.

He'd be valuable to Fr. Wegner's "Dutch Branding" company, to help write Bp. Fellay's pre-Canonization biography.
Atila is slave # 11, not a slave to Mary, but a slave to Plinio.

The following declaration was registered at the Public Archives (August 24, 1984) and published on March 14 1985 in the newspaper La Folha de Manha.

I, the undersigned, Filipe de Freitas Guimarães Ablas, RG (General Registry) 3706587, SP, marital status - unmarried, living in Curitiba (Brazil), Manoel C. so Ribas, No 418, swear to be true that when I belonged to the TFP, Brazilian Society for the Defense of Tradition, Family and Property, in 1967 I entered into a secret society of that association, known as "Sacred Slavery" [Sempre Viva], also known by its members as "Still Living".

The members of this secret society have made a consecration of themselves as slaves of Dr Plinio Corrêa de Oliveira in the same sense in which St. Louis de Montfort Grignion recommended it be done for the Madonna. For this consecration, as a slave to Dr. Plinio, was used the same text drawn up by St. Louis for the consecration to Our Lady, with some adaptation.  . . .

I am not the one who is alive but it is My Lord [Plinio] that lives in me. From him everything comes to me, his spirit is living in me, and I can imitate in this union of  slavery, everything that he is. In the climate of our days, without greatness, without horizons, given over to optimism and mediocrity, time will bring great events to us, with great horizons, in which I will have to live as a hero of the same magnitude as My Lord [Plinio]. Looking inside myself and seeing a lot of smallness, I know that faith requires me to imitate My Lord [Plinio], and I will make of myself a perfect Apostle of the Last Times, according to the prophetic prayer of St. Louis de Montfort Grignion. In all this I ask My Lord [Plinio] to help my unbelief. "

Prayers were also recited to him [Plinio], as a parody of the Ave Maria, which incorporate the prophecies of St. Louis, St. Elias and himself: . . ." There was also a Litany for him, the 'Doctor', and they said that the prayers had been composed by Marcos Ribeiro Dantas (slave Plinio Paul).

In one of these ejaculatory prayers to Dr. Plinio it was prayed: "The forerunner of Elijah, pray for us!"


The slaves of Dr. Plinio had the habit of confessing to him, confessing their failings and even their sins. After the accusation, if the slave asked for a penance, Dr Plinio had the habit of giving three slaps to the face of the slave. Following this, he would impart the blessing.


Dr. Plinio sat on a small throne with the habit and the mantle of the Third Order. The assistants used a habit without the mantle. The person who was about to be introduced to that company relaxed, as if dead, prostrate upon the ground in front of Dr. Plinio. At this point, from Dr. Plinio, was received the order to stand up to receive a new life and he [Plinio] intoned: "Exsurge." This meant that the person had died and was born a new man, a slave of the prophet, an Apostle of the Last Times.


We could not communicate with other members of TFP the existence of "Sacred Slavery," because - of course - of the nature of this secret society.

The twelve first slaves were:

1) Caio Vidigal Xavier da Silveira - Plinio Mário.
2) Eduardo Barros Brotero - Plinio Eduardo.
3) Luiz Nazareno of Assunpção Filho - Plinio Luiz.
4) João Clá Dias Scognamiglio - Plinio Fernando.
5) Humberto Braccesi - Plinio Cirineu.
6) Fernando Siqueira - Plinio Bernardo.
7) Carlos Espírito Hofmeister Poly - Plinio Jose.
 Marcos Ribeiro Dantes - Plinio Paulo.
9) Mário Navarro da Costa - Plinio Elias.
10) Dom Bertrand de Orleans e Bragança - Plinio Miguel.
11) Atila Sinke Guimarães - Plinio Márcio.
12) Becca Cosme Varella Hijo - Plinio Lázaro.
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Incredulous on June 25, 2019, 06:14:44 PM


Trad -granny... tell me the truth now.


Is your PhD in the Microsoft cut & paste tool?

(https://proxy.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Ftse2.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DOIP.0-Zrhnn8da4WyU2hWSuYUQHaHy%26pid%3DApi&f=1)

How many times are you going to cut & paste that same old trash?


Can't you do something else?  

My goodness ! :farmer:

Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: tdrev123 on June 25, 2019, 06:24:44 PM
So the Bishop said TFP mistrusts the clergy....

Matthew aren't you a resistance supporter?  The whole point of resistance is mistrusting the clergy!  

All that letter is was a conciliar bishop who didn't like the fact the TFP thinks there are smarter then the Conciliar church...Um Hello that is what traditional Catholicism is you ignoramus's. 
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Matthew on June 25, 2019, 06:36:14 PM
So the Bishop said TFP mistrusts the clergy....

Matthew aren't you a resistance supporter?  The whole point of resistance is mistrusting the clergy!  

All that letter is was a conciliar bishop who didn't like the fact the TFP thinks there are smarter then the Conciliar church...Um Hello that is what traditional Catholicism is you ignoramus's.
Bp. de Castro Mayer wasn't a "conciliar bishop", you ignoramus.
He rejected Vatican II all the way.
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Matthew on June 25, 2019, 06:40:01 PM
Incredulous, is that the best you can do to rebut that "cut & paste"?

The content "cut/pasted" by Cera, above, is completely and utterly damning of Plinio, the TFP, etc.!

After reading that, I understand why the Traditional priest contacted me about the TFP threads on CathInfo. I had already heard bad things about the TFP, so I was inclined to post some warnings anyhow.

Why don't you at least ATTEMPT to critique the content, rather than blatantly, transparently attacking the messenger for cut/pasting and sharing this important information (once again) with the readers of CathInfo.
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Croixalist on June 25, 2019, 07:23:40 PM
The "Trad-Granny" thing is a bit much Incred. Stick to the argument, there's plenty to be had.

More than Mr. Armour's or Mr. Ablas' detailed testimony, we have Atila attempting to excuse the TFP practice of referring to themselves as "slaves" to Plinio. I don't care if it's in addition to being slaves to Our Lady, St. Montfort did not proscribe any such spiritual obedience to a layman, nor can I imagine a scenario where such a practice would be appropriate. This to me was a major indication that the aforementioned testimonies had at least a kernel of truth to them. It would be helpful if more people came forward about this. We only have insider info from two sources in two different parts of the world and those sources were unknown to begin with and completely disappeared from the traditional scene after they spoke up.

Whether Atila and TIA know it or not, they are the ones providing the strongest evidence for the disordered foundation of the TFP. By turning their axe to the roots of the SSPX, they reveal the tree rot of their own group and their sole claim to orthodoxy from the onset of the VII era. 
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Last Tradhican on June 26, 2019, 06:50:33 AM
Quote
In case you don’t know TIA is a branch of Tradition Family and Property founded by Plinio Correa de Oliveira in Brazil.

Bp de Castro Mayer, after supporting them, in 1983 publicly dissociated from this organization and condemned them, as they became a real sect evolving into a cult of their founder and esoteric practices.

I knew them very well in South America. They're dangerous!
This says nothing, it is just one priest's warning, why should anyone listen to an anonymous priest who says just that "they are dangerous"? How exactly are they dangerous? No organization today is without a dangerous feature and one has to be aware of it, but to dismiss the TIA website with all of its pure Catholic teachings because a priest says Plinio was dangerous, is pure foolishness.

It is akin to I totally dismissing the SSPX and all of the sede groups because they teach that Mohamedans, Jews, Hindus.... people in any false religion can be saved by their belief in a God that rewards, in fact, it is worse to dismiss the TIA website, for they do not teach, push any such teachings. (P.S.- I've been going to SSPX chapels for over 20 years and I would go to a sede chapel if there was one close by, as long as I was certain about the validity of the priest)
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Last Tradhican on June 26, 2019, 06:58:44 AM
Atila is slave # 11, not a slave to Mary, but a slave to Plinio.

The following declaration was registered at the Public Archives (August 24, 1984) and published on March 14 1985 in the newspaper La Folha de Manha.
Thanks for the warning, but I would not become a slave to any man, so it is good to know, but not of any other use to me.

That is the problem with people who follow personalities, and most people follow personalities, defending them as if they were personally being attacked. This is what the SSPXers do with the SSPX and Abp. Lefebvre, Bp. Williamson, Bp. Fellay……..

I follow only truth. 

(by the way,  Bp. Willamson many times has said everything I wrote above)
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Cera on June 26, 2019, 04:42:40 PM
So the Bishop said TFP mistrusts the clergy....

Matthew aren't you a resistance supporter?  The whole point of resistance is mistrusting the clergy!  

All that letter is was a conciliar bishop who didn't like the fact the TFP thinks there are smarter then the Conciliar church...Um Hello that is what traditional Catholicism is you ignoramus's.
It's bad enough that you cannot give a rational answer.
It's bad enough that you so often resort to name-calling.
But then you top it off by a grammatical error in you name-calling.
The plural of ignoramus is ignoramuses. Your use of an apostrophe makes the word possessive.


Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Cera on June 26, 2019, 04:46:39 PM
Thanks for the warning, but I would not become a slave to any man,

I am truly happy to hear that you would not become a slave to another human being in an anti-Catholic mockery of a Catholic consecration to Mary.
However, does it not make you stop and think about the anti-Catholic, heretical act that Atila, head of Tradition in Action, engaging in when he made himself a slave to his master Plinio?
Why would you trust any words that come from the pen of this anti-Catholic heretic?
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Last Tradhican on June 26, 2019, 05:36:02 PM
However, does it not make you stop and think about the anti-Catholic, heretical act that Atila, head of Tradition in Action, engaging in when he made himself a slave to his master Plinio?
Why would you trust any words that come from the pen of this anti-Catholic heretic?
I trust him because he has developed my trust over like 10 years+ that I have been reading what he writes, and not one word was "anti-Catholic heretical".

You on the other hand have developed yourself into someone not worth listening to. You have a strange hatred of Atila Guimaraes which is not at all related with what he has written. I smell a communist. 
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Cera on July 01, 2019, 06:41:51 PM
The "Trad-Granny" thing is a bit much Incred. Stick to the argument, there's plenty to be had.

More than Mr. Armour's or Mr. Ablas' detailed testimony, we have Atila attempting to excuse the TFP practice of referring to themselves as "slaves" to Plinio. I don't care if it's in addition to being slaves to Our Lady, St. Montfort did not proscribe any such spiritual obedience to a layman, nor can I imagine a scenario where such a practice would be appropriate. This to me was a major indication that the aforementioned testimonies had at least a kernel of truth to them. It would be helpful if more people came forward about this. We only have insider info from two sources in two different parts of the world and those sources were unknown to begin with and completely disappeared from the traditional scene after they spoke up.

Whether Atila and TIA know it or not, they are the ones providing the strongest evidence for the disordered foundation of the TFP. By turning their axe to the roots of the SSPX, they reveal the tree rot of their own group and their sole claim to orthodoxy from the onset of the VII era.
:jumping2:
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Meg on July 02, 2019, 05:25:39 AM
Thanks for the warning, but I would not become a slave to any man, so it is good to know, but not of any other use to me.

That is the problem with people who follow personalities, and most people follow personalities, defending them as if they were personally being attacked. This is what the SSPXers do with the SSPX and Abp. Lefebvre, Bp. Williamson, Bp. Fellay……..

I follow only truth.

(by the way,  Bp. Willamson many times has said everything I wrote above)

Those who follow and support Guimaraes/TIA/TFP tend to act as though they are being personally attacked when Guimaraes/TIA/TFP is criticized. The problems with TFP, and by extension TIA, shouldn't be swept under the rug just because there are those who deny that there is a problem. It would be like denying that there is a problem with the Neo-SSPX.
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Ladislaus on July 02, 2019, 07:54:09 AM
This says nothing, it is just one priest's warning, why should anyone listen to an anonymous priest who says just that "they are dangerous"? How exactly are they dangerous? No organization today is without a dangerous feature and one has to be aware of it, but to dismiss the TIA website with all of its pure Catholic teachings because a priest says Plinio was dangerous, is pure foolishness.

THIS^^^
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Incredulous on July 02, 2019, 11:06:49 AM
It's bad enough that you cannot give a rational answer.
It's bad enough that you so often resort to name-calling.
But then you top it off by a grammatical error in you name-calling.
The plural of ignoramus is ignoramuses. Your use of an apostrophe makes the word possessive.

Trad granny,

Please consider the following:

So well respected is your forum troll reputation, that no one bothers to take the time to make their responses to you grammatically correct.

:jester:
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Cera on July 07, 2019, 03:49:10 PM
Those who follow and support Guimaraes/TIA/TFP tend to act as though they are being personally attacked when Guimaraes/TIA/TFP is criticized. The problems with TFP, and by extension TIA, shouldn't be swept under the rug just because there are those who deny that there is a problem. It would be like denying that there is a problem with the Neo-SSPX.
:applause: :applause: :applause:
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Cera on July 11, 2019, 06:21:21 PM
BTT
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Your Friend Colin on July 11, 2019, 06:24:09 PM
No. Please stop, Cera. We’ve all had enough of this. 

Why are you so fixated on discrediting TFP/TIA?
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Ladislaus on July 11, 2019, 06:42:37 PM
No. Please stop, Cera. We’ve all had enough of this.

Why are you so fixated on discrediting TFP/TIA?

She refuses to fess up about why she has a personal grudge against them.  Maybe she dated a TFP guy and got dumped.  Who knows?
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Alan on July 11, 2019, 08:28:57 PM
I don't think TFP and TIA are heretical;  compared to many bishops today, they are super orthodox.
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Struthio on July 11, 2019, 09:39:33 PM
Warning from a Traditional Catholic priest familiar with the group:

Quote
In case you don’t know TIA is a branch of Tradition Family and Property founded by Plinio Correa de Oliveira in Brazil.

Bp de Castro Mayer, after supporting them, in 1983 publicly dissociated from this organization and condemned them, as they became a real sect evolving into a cult of their founder and esoteric practices.

I knew them very well in South America. They're dangerous!


Dr. Orlando Fedeli, a secondary school teacher and professor at the Pontifical University of Sâo Paulo, had been a TFPista and follower of Plínio Corrêa de Oliveira for decades before leaving and turning himself into a fierce critic of Plínio and his TFP. Inter alia, he wrote a book titled No País das Maravilhas: a Gnose Burlesca da TFP e dos Arautos do Evangelho (In Wonderland: The Burlesque Gnosis of the TFP and the Herolds of the Gospel). The Arautos of João Scognamiglio Clá Dias are one of two main TFP successor organisations in Brazil. Fedeli denounced an inner TFP circle, a blasphemous cult in which our Lord and our Lady were replaced by Plínio and his mother Lucilia.

Fedeli founded his own organisation, the Associação Cultural Montfort, which split into two a few years after his death in 2010. Docile followers turning into headstrong competitors.

Different from Orlando Fedeli, the italian Roberto de Mattei penned an awe-inspiring hagiography of Plínio Corrêa.

Some years ago, an audio of a conference of João Scognamiglio Clá Dias could be found on gloria.tv, youtube etc. in which Clá Dias taught his followers a mockery and blasphemy. He praised a disfigured version of the words of St. Paul

 "It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me" (Gal 2:20)

where the word Christ was replaced by the name Plínio, as the state of mind to strive for. The audio showed that the allegations of Fedeli had not been an invention.

The audio as well as the whole affair was nauseating.

Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Alan on July 11, 2019, 10:19:53 PM
The devil loves the "Divide and Conquer" tactic.

He loves seeing Catholics fighting against each other and seeing Catholics leaving traditionalist Catholic organisations.
Some people are leaving those organisations due to imperfections there as if they could only serve "perfect" organisations, "imperfect" ones are not worthy of their services. In other words, they will only serve saints.

Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Struthio on July 11, 2019, 10:23:46 PM
The devil loves blasphemy.
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Cera on July 12, 2019, 02:55:15 PM
No. Please stop, Cera. We’ve all had enough of this.

Why are you so fixated on discrediting TFP/TIA?
Those of us who love Truth also love the truth. Facts are presented regarding an anti-Catholic heretical sect which purports to be Catholic. Instead of rational arguments against the facts, TFP/TIA cult members instead:
1. cut-and-paste from their TIA guru,
2. name-call,
3. demand that the facts not be posted.
I continue to pray for all of those who have become deluded by this "anti-Catholic, anti-clerical heretical sect" as Bishop Mayer called the Plinio- worshiping TFP.
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Cera on July 12, 2019, 02:58:22 PM
repeat
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Cera on July 12, 2019, 03:09:36 PM



Dr. Orlando Fedeli, a secondary school teacher and professor at the Pontifical University of Sâo Paulo, had been a TFPista and follower of Plínio Corrêa de Oliveira for decades before leaving and turning himself into a fierce critic of Plínio and his TFP. Inter alia, he wrote a book titled No País das Maravilhas: a Gnose Burlesca da TFP e dos Arautos do Evangelho (In Wonderland: The Burlesque Gnosis of the TFP and the Herolds of the Gospel). The Arautos of João Scognamiglio Clá Dias are one of two main TFP successor organisations in Brazil. Fedeli denounced an inner TFP circle, a blasphemous cult in which our Lord and our Lady were replaced by Plínio and his mother Lucilia.

Fedeli founded his own organisation, the Associação Cultural Montfort, which split into two a few years after his death in 2010. Docile followers turning into headstrong competitors.

Different from Orlando Fedeli, the italian Roberto de Mattei penned an awe-inspiring hagiography of Plínio Corrêa.

Some years ago, an audio of a conference of João Scognamiglio Clá Dias could be found on gloria.tv, youtube etc. in which Clá Dias taught his followers a mockery and blasphemy. He praised a disfigured version of the words of St. Paul

 "It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me" (Gal 2:20)

where the word Christ was replaced by the name Plínio, as the state of mind to strive for. The audio showed that the allegations of Fedeli had not been an invention.

The audio as well as the whole affair was nauseating.
Thank you for the detailed background on this. The blasphemous "prayer" to Plinio has been posted here previously and the response from the Plinio- worshipers here on Cath Info has been limited to personal attacks and demands that the facts no longer be posted
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Meg on July 12, 2019, 05:46:24 PM
Dr. Orlando Fedeli, a secondary school teacher and professor at the Pontifical University of Sâo Paulo, had been a TFPista and follower of Plínio Corrêa de Oliveira for decades before leaving and turning himself into a fierce critic of Plínio and his TFP. Inter alia, he wrote a book titled No País das Maravilhas: a Gnose Burlesca da TFP e dos Arautos do Evangelho (In Wonderland: The Burlesque Gnosis of the TFP and the Herolds of the Gospel). The Arautos of João Scognamiglio Clá Dias are one of two main TFP successor organisations in Brazil. Fedeli denounced an inner TFP circle, a blasphemous cult in which our Lord and our Lady were replaced by Plínio and his mother Lucilia.

Quote from above:
"Fedeli denounced an inner TFP circle, a blasphemous cult in which our Lord and our Lady were replaced by Plinio and his mother Lucilia."

My question is, why have those who support Plinio/TFP on this forum not tried to refute these allegations? All they have done is to refer to a refutation by Guimaraes, but that doesn't cut it. It is a serious accusation, and it needs to be addressed in a forthright manner.

Did Plinio indeed put himself in place of our Lord, and his mother Lucilia in place of our Lady? Because if he did, then there was a very serious problem with Plinio de Oliviera.

Also, it seems that there may have been a (secret?) inner circle, which is mentioned in the above quote. Is it possible that most of the followers of Plinio/TFP were not aware of an inner circle?
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Alan on July 13, 2019, 05:06:37 AM
Quote from above:
...
...
Did Plinio indeed put himself in place of our Lord, and his mother Lucilia in place of our Lady? Because if he did, then there was a very serious problem with Plinio de Oliviera.

Also, it seems that there may have been a (secret?) inner circle, which is mentioned in the above quote. Is it possible that most of the followers of Plinio/TFP were not aware of an inner circle?

I don't think Mr Plinio C de Oliveira did put his mother in place of Our Lady because he is a zealous promoter of the Rosary and Fatima message, more than many priests of today.


I don't think he put himself in place of Our Lord too, because I never heard him promoting or glorifying himself but only Our Lord and Our Lady.

Is the TFP anti-Catholic? Judge them by their actions.
"You will know them by their fruits....Even so, every good tree bears good fruit; but the bad tree bears bad fruit” (Matthew 7:15-17).

Did they promote abortion or fight against it?
Did they promote sodomy or fight against it?
Did they promote "True devotion to Mary" or fight against it?
etc.
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Incredulous on July 13, 2019, 08:33:49 AM
Quote from above:
"Fedeli denounced an inner TFP circle, a blasphemous cult in which our Lord and our Lady were replaced by Plinio and his mother Lucilia."

My question is, why have those who support Plinio/TFP on this forum not tried to refute these allegations? All they have done is to refer to a refutation by Guimaraes, but that doesn't cut it. It is a serious accusation, and it needs to be addressed in a forthright manner.

Did Plinio indeed put himself in place of our Lord, and his mother Lucilia in place of our Lady? Because if he did, then there was a very serious problem with Plinio de Oliviera.

Also, it seems that there may have been a (secret?) inner circle, which is mentioned in the above quote. Is it possible that most of the followers of Plinio/TFP were not aware of an inner circle?


Meg,

Let's cut to the chase.

Are you actually Jade Liboro, posting for the benefit of the SSPX?  :-\
You've been on this forum since 2013.  Jade's been in the Quito convent since 2014.

An honest response would be appreciated by all.
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Meg on July 13, 2019, 08:35:05 AM

I don't think Mr Plinio C de Oliveira did put his mother in place of Our Lady because he is a zealous promoter of the Rosary and Fatima message, more than many priests of today.


I don't think he put himself in place of Our Lord too, because I never heard him promoting or glorifying himself but only Our Lord and Our Lady.

Is the TFP anti-Catholic? Judge them by their actions.
"You will know them by their fruits....Even so, every good tree bears good fruit; but the bad tree bears bad fruit” (Matthew 7:15-17).

Did they promote abortion or fight against it?
Did they promote sodomy or fight against it?
Did they promote "True devotion to Mary" or fight against it?
etc.

Yes, I am aware that Plinio de Oliveira was a promoter of the Fatima message and the Rosary. But how is it that de Oliveira ended up being worshiped by some of his followers? How can you be sure that Oliveira did not encourage that?

Archbishop Lefebvre's mother was a saintly person, but no one has ever encouraged setting her up as another Blessed Virgin Mary. One has to wonder about what was being taught to people who believe that Plinio (and his mother) are another Christ and Blessed Virgin Mary.
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Struthio on July 13, 2019, 08:36:20 AM
Did Plinio indeed put himself in place of our Lord, and his mother Lucilia in place of our Lady? Because if he did, then there was a very serious problem with Plinio de Oliviera.

Also, it seems that there may have been a (secret?) inner circle, which is mentioned in the above quote. Is it possible that most of the followers of Plinio/TFP were not aware of an inner circle?

There was a public fight between Orlando Fedeli and Plínio Corrêa de Oliveira in the 1980s. They wrote articles in one of the major brazilian newspapers, the Folha de São Paulo (besides books, pamphlets, and articles elsewhere published). Átila Sinke Guimarães wrote in defense of Plínio's TFP.

TFP defenders then admitted the existence of "Sempre Viva" and presented its role and customs as legitimate. On the other hand, Fedeli presented testimony of dropouts.

I only read some of all the hundreds of pages that have been written against or in defense of Plínio Corrêa de Oliveira and the cult of Plínio and Lucília.

In my opinion, the leaked audio of João Scognamilio Clá Dias gives credit to Orlando Fedeli. It was uploaded in 2010 or 2011 and since removed from youtube as well as elsewhere. A transcription can be found at

  http://www.montfort.org.br:84/nova-confirmacao-do-culto-delirante-prestado-a-plinio-correa-de-oliveira/ (http://www.montfort.org.br:84/nova-confirmacao-do-culto-delirante-prestado-a-plinio-correa-de-oliveira/)

Quote
É preciso que a gente tenha uma devoção a ele [Dr. Plinio] crescente, um ardor a ele cada vez maior, que a gente o queira com toda força da nossa alma. Que a gente não pense em outra coisa durante o dia senão ele ele ele ele ele ele, que passe o dia ávido, o dia ansioso, o dia desejoso de ter um encontro ainda que místico, interior, com ele, uma conversa, um contato com ele, e a gente, portanto, vá se unindo cada vez mais a ele, a ponto de não termos mais a nossa mentalidade, o nosso espírito, a nossa inteligência, a nossa vontade, a nossa sensibilidade funcionando, a não ser assim: Eu já não vivo, é o sr. Dr. Plínio que vive em mim.

Quote
It is necessary that we have a crescent devotion to him [Dr. Plínio], a constantly growing ardor, that we want him in our soul with all our forces. That we don't think of anything else the whole day long, nothing but him, him, him, him, him, him, [... etc. pp. ...] up to the point where we have: I don't live anymore, it is Dr. Plínio who lives in me.
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Bas Congo V on July 13, 2019, 08:49:25 AM
TIA has been a blessing and service to the Church Militant.

Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Ladislaus on July 13, 2019, 11:01:43 AM

Meg,

Let's cut to the chase.

Are you actually Jade Liboro, posting for the benefit of the SSPX? :-\
You've been on this forum since 2013.  Jade's been in the Quito convent since 2014.

An honest response would be appreciated by all.

:popcorn:
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Ladislaus on July 13, 2019, 11:06:28 AM
My question is, why have those who support Plinio/TFP on this forum not tried to refute these allegations? All they have done is to refer to a refutation by Guimaraes, but that doesn't cut it. It is a serious accusation, and it needs to be addressed in a forthright manner.

Did Plinio indeed put himself in place of our Lord, and his mother Lucilia in place of our Lady? Because if he did, then there was a very serious problem with Plinio de Oliviera.

Short of someone having first-hand knowledge of the goings on inside the TFP, especially in the 80s, what else can people rely on but the testimony of others?  We find the refutation by Guimaraes to be convincing.  I also know a few American TFP members personally, and even questioned a couple of them regarding Plinio, and the answer was that they respect him, but that is all.  I never got ANY hint of Plinio worship or the worship of Plinio's Mom.  Now maybe it was different in parts of Brazil, but my experience with the American TFP has been nothing but positive.  Of course they do soft-pedal their opposition to Vatican II way too much, but that's a different issue.  For being so "anti-clerical" they do seem rather insistent on submission to the purported hierarchy and disagree with the SSPX precisely on those grounds.  So that seems to directly contradict the charge of anti-clericalism.
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Pax Vobis on July 13, 2019, 11:16:12 AM
TIA has great catholic articles and the TFP does great catholic work (like organizing the 8,000+ rosary rallys).  Writing them off because their founder was a nut is akin to condemning the sspx masses as heretical because +Fellay is a modernist-in-hiding (and he is).  There’s no logic, just emotions.  Cena has this false “all or nothing”, “black and white”, “either-or” mindset that is pervasive in the Trad world and which contributes to the lack of unity in our circles and also makes many hesitate to convert to traditionalism.  Basically, she either can’t make ANY distinctions or she doesn’t want to.  The amount of emotion and vitriol she regularly expresses shows it’s the latter.  It’s sad but unsurprising.  Many Trads act like her.  
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Meg on July 13, 2019, 11:20:39 AM

Meg,

Let's cut to the chase.

Are you actually Jade Liboro, posting for the benefit of the SSPX? :-\
You've been on this forum since 2013.  Jade's been in the Quito convent since 2014.

An honest response would be appreciated by all.

I'm not going to answer your question. I find it amusing that you think that my real name is Jade Liboro, and that I live in a convent in Ecuador.

It's very telling that the followers of Guimaraes think that anyone who questions them is an "agent" of the SSPX, or communism or whatever. It's a strange mentality that perceives an "agent" behind every screen name that opposes them. If you want to think that I'm Jade Liboro, that's fine. It's not like you would believe anything I say anyway. That's why I don't often respond to your posts.
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Incredulous on July 13, 2019, 11:34:58 AM
I'm not going to answer your question. I find it amusing that you think that my real name is Jade Liboro, and that I live in a convent in Ecuador.

It's very telling that the followers of Guimaraes think that anyone who questions them is an "agent" of the SSPX, or communism or whatever. It's a strange mentality that perceives an "agent" behind every screen name that opposes them. If you want to think that I'm Jade Liboro, that's fine. It's not like you would believe anything I say anyway. That's why I don't often respond to your posts.

Jade only visits... Meg and you know that, but your posts serve her agenda well.
Jade is computer/server proficient and can post from Ecuador, Florida or any where else in the world.
And who else might know of her routines? :-\
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Meg on July 13, 2019, 11:38:38 AM
TIA has great catholic articles and the TFP does great catholic work (like organizing the 8,000+ rosary rallys).  Writing them off because their founder was a nut is akin to condemning the sspx masses as heretical because +Fellay is a modernist-in-hiding (and he is).  There’s no logic, just emotions.  Cena has this false “all or nothing”, “black and white”, “either-or” mindset that is pervasive in the Trad world and which contributes to the lack of unity in our circles and also makes many hesitate to convert to traditionalism.  Basically, she either can’t make ANY distinctions or she doesn’t want to.  The amount of emotion and vitriol she regularly expresses shows it’s the latter.  It’s sad but unsurprising.  Many Trads act like her.  

Bp. Fellay isn't the founder of the SSPX, so I don't see the correlation.

Yes, Cera is at times a little over-the-top. But I think that she is trying to do the right thing. I started to defend her because several forum members were ganging up on her in what I felt was a belligerent manner. It didn't seem right. Especially since she's hardly the only Catholic to take issue with TIA/TFP/Guimaraes/Plinio. I find that the other testimonies from those who are trying to show the problems with TIA/TFP/Guimaraes/Plinio seem credible. We might not be able to prove anything from either side of the issue, but that doesn't mean that the subject should be forbidden.
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Ladislaus on July 13, 2019, 11:39:49 AM
I'm not going to answer your question. I find it amusing that you think that my real name is Jade Liboro, and that I live in a convent in Ecuador.

It's very telling that the followers of Guimaraes think that anyone who questions them is an "agent" of the SSPX, or communism or whatever. It's a strange mentality that perceives an "agent" behind every screen name that opposes them. If you want to think that I'm Jade Liboro, that's fine. It's not like you would believe anything I say anyway. That's why I don't often respond to your posts.

This really has all the sounds of a mental reservation.  How hard would it have been to say, "No, I am not this Jade person."?
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Meg on July 13, 2019, 11:40:48 AM
This really has all the sounds of a mental reservation.  How hard would it have been to say, "No, I am not this Jade person."?

Because I want to keep the nutty Guimaraes followers guessing. Gotta have a little fun sometimes.
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Your Friend Colin on July 13, 2019, 01:15:46 PM
Bp. Fellay isn't the founder of the SSPX, so I don't see the correlation.

Yes, Cera is at times a little over-the-top. But I think that she is trying to do the right thing. I started to defend her because several forum members were ganging up on her in what I felt was a belligerent manner. It didn't seem right. Especially since she's hardly the only Catholic to take issue with TIA/TFP/Guimaraes/Plinio. I find that the other testimonies from those who are trying to show the problems with TIA/TFP/Guimaraes/Plinio seem credible. We might not be able to prove anything from either side of the issue, but that doesn't mean that the subject should be forbidden.
This is exactly my issue - the “over-the-topness”.
We aren’t ganging up on her. A few members are simply stating that Cera’s fixation on discrediting the TFP/TIA seems obsessive.
We’re also not saying this issue should be forbidden. But when a new thread is created every week to state the same things over and over again, it gets annoying.
We’ve asked Cera to share with us why she is so fixated on the “evils” of Plinio and Guimaraes. If she had a bad experience with them she should make that know so we would have a better understanding of where she is coming from. But we’ve repeatedly asked her about this to no avail.
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Croixalist on July 13, 2019, 02:06:17 PM
I think the basic problem is reposting the same information without much in the way of a discussion The effect is similar to pamphleteering or spam rather than having an ongoing discussion. That being said, I feel strongly about what I perceive as a stark change to how TIA approaches their material now. As much as she may be biased in SSPX's favor, the people who are complaining tend to lean on TIA/TFP's side of things. It's important to keep the topic going and Cera has kept pretty civil about it so I don't see why she can't continue, so long as it's part of a conversation and not a simple reposting/semi-spam.
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Cera on July 13, 2019, 02:51:28 PM

Meg,

Let's cut to the chase.

Are you actually Jade Liboro, posting for the benefit of the SSPX? :-\
You've been on this forum since 2013.  Jade's been in the Quito convent since 2014.

An honest response would be appreciated by all.
Actually what would be appreciated by all would be an intelligent response from you regarding the serious questions which have been raised.
Second best would be an honest question from you.
Making a TIA-type attack disguised as a pseudo- question is rather sophomoric.
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Incredulous on July 13, 2019, 03:07:02 PM
Actually what would be appreciated by all would be an intelligent response from you regarding the serious questions which have been raised.
Second best would be an honest question from you.
Making a TIA-type attack disguised as a pseudo- question is rather sophomoric.


Trad granny,

Are you finally admitting that Jade Liboro is an SSPX operative?  You never wanted to talk about that before?
And that her activities in the Quito convent are questionable, to say the least.

Implying that if Jade also posted on Cathinfo as "Meg", to attack the SSPX's adversaries it is a "serious" issue?

I like it... we seem to be making some progress here.


Oh, thank you for calling me sophomoric.... it makes me feel young!  :jumping2:

Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Meg on July 13, 2019, 03:31:35 PM
This is exactly my issue - the “over-the-topness”.
We aren’t ganging up on her. A few members are simply stating that Cera’s fixation on discrediting the TFP/TIA seems obsessive.
We’re also not saying this issue should be forbidden. But when a new thread is created every week to state the same things over and over again, it gets annoying.
We’ve asked Cera to share with us why she is so fixated on the “evils” of Plinio and Guimaraes. If she had a bad experience with them she should make that know so we would have a better understanding of where she is coming from. But we’ve repeatedly asked her about this to no avail.

And yet you are not concerned about the over-the-topness of some of your confreres.

Why would it matter if Cera explained why she is so concerned about TIA/TFP/Guimaraes/Plinio? At the end of the day, the question still remains: you and the others have not addressed the relevant problems at hand. Instead, you focus solely on those who take issue with TIA/TFP/Guimaraes/Plinio.
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Cera on July 13, 2019, 03:35:17 PM
For being so "anti-clerical" they do seem rather insistent on submission to the purported hierarchy and disagree with the SSPX precisely on those grounds.  So that seems to directly contradict the charge of anti-clericalism.
TFP was condemned by their local Bishop as being an "anti-Catholic, anti-clerical heretical sect."
As for TIA, one only has to read their unfounded attacks on Blessed Cardinal Newman, Archbishop Lefebrve, Bishop Travez and numerous good, traditional Catholic priests to see that they are indeed anti-clerical.
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Cera on July 13, 2019, 03:50:36 PM
TIA has great catholic articles and the TFP does great catholic work (like organizing the 8,000+ rosary rallys).  Writing them off because their founder was a nut is akin to condemning the sspx masses as heretical because +Fellay is a modernist-in-hiding (and he is).  There’s no logic, just emotions.  Cena has this false “all or nothing”, “black and white”, “either-or” mindset that is pervasive in the Trad world and which contributes to the lack of unity in our circles and also makes many hesitate to convert to traditionalism.  Basically, she either can’t make ANY distinctions or she doesn’t want to.  The amount of emotion and vitriol she regularly expresses shows it’s the latter.  It’s sad but unsurprising.  Many Trads act like her.  
Since I have posted only statements by Bishops, former members and journalists, I look forward to your citation of the "black-and-white" thinking of which you accuse me.
Like others here, I was once taken in by the appearance of a traditional Catholic group.
It was only when I looked into the condemnations by Bishop Mayer, the Bishops of Brazil, civil authorities of several South American nations, former members of the cult, parents of former members of the cult, and journalists that I realized that the Plinio- worshiping groups are not Catholic.


This includes not only Tradition Family and Property (TFP) and Tradition in Action (TIA); but also America Needs Fatima and Heralds of the Gospel and many others.
The prayer of TFP and Atila (slave#11 to Plinio and founder of TIA) "Let it no longer be I who live but rather Plinio in me who lives" is a blasphemy. Only a heretic "prays" like this.


That is a Catholic statement of fact. Does that sound like "black-and-white" thinking to you?
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Pax Vobis on July 13, 2019, 04:02:28 PM

Quote
TFP was condemned by their local Bishop as being an "anti-Catholic, anti-clerical heretical sect."
As for TIA, one only has to read their unfounded attacks on Blessed Cardinal Newman, Archbishop Lefebrve, Bishop Travez and numerous good, traditional Catholic priests to see that they are indeed anti-clerical.
TFP was condemned long ago; TIA has not been.  Yet you lump them both together.  Your lack of distinguishing is the problem.  The "black and white" thinking is that TFP is condemned, ergo TIA is also.  This is illogical.
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Pax Vobis on July 13, 2019, 04:03:48 PM

Quote
Bp. Fellay isn't the founder of the SSPX, so I don't see the correlation.
Obviously.
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Struthio on July 13, 2019, 04:06:00 PM
TFP was condemned long ago; TIA has not been.  Yet you lump them both together.  Your lack of distinguishing is the problem.  The "black and white" thinking is that TFP is condemned, ergo TIA is also.  This is illogical.

It is not illogical. You are illogical. Átila G. didn't care about any condemnation. Therefore the condemnations fall on him.
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Croixalist on July 13, 2019, 11:47:25 PM
TFP was condemned long ago; TIA has not been.  Yet you lump them both together.  Your lack of distinguishing is the problem.  The "black and white" thinking is that TFP is condemned, ergo TIA is also.  This is illogical.

It can hardly be avoided. TIA is a big promoter of Mr. Correa and by their words and deeds claim to be operating under the true spirit of the original TFP as he founded it. This is all well and good for the most part seeing as how solid Plinio's writing tends to be, though I am no expert. I thought TIA was playing it pretty smart by managing to avoid getting directly involved in an open dispute with the SSPX, because in my opinion there's still a risk of throwing out the good with the bad. Many here, including Matthew have been burned severely by some of the worst elements within the Society, but I know there is still plenty of good priests and Masses to be had. To many for me to write off at any rate.

Unfortunately now, TIA has decided to engage on a very haphazard and anonymously sourced campaign against SSPX, Fr. Purdy and especially Jade Liboro all in protest on behalf of the TFP. My own personal opinion is that TFP, at least the USA branch, has gone on to become more of a Novus Ordo-aligned lay organization and has discarded the strange Plinio devotion that was referenced early on. If the Brazilian branch thought the events at Quito was as egregious as Mr. Guimaraes thinks it was, you'd never know it because they haven't thought it important enough to speak out. Clearly, Atila wants to chart a different course for the TFP than the actual TFP have decided on. It's not that we came up with this association all by ourselves, Atila is deliberately holding on to it. He probably shouldn't, because the more he speaks as an expert on all things TFP, the more he reveals.

We do know without a doubt that there was a segment of Brazilian TFP members who decided to call themselves slaves of Plinio or the slightly less offensive but still disordered Slaves of Our Lady through the hands of Plinio. I don't know how large the faction was and now that I'm looking over it again, I can't say Atila was definitely one of them, but he sure did spend a lot of time writing to defend such an action. There was that one really strange offshoot that took things to an idolatrous level, but that doesn't necessarily mean that was a true reflection of TFP Brazil. Nevertheless, it may serve as an indication that there was something off about the original group.

One more thing that bugs me about Atila's inside sources regarding the recent Quito affair is that I can't imagine anyone offering the sort of information he claims to have received unless his contact was an actual nun (or nuns) within the convent itself. If true, this would in theory be a major departure for what Mother Mariana envisioned for the sisters, as would be having a group of laymen enter the convent in order to carry the statue in the first place. It may also indicate a real "La Capitana" with a mouth to his ear. If that sounds extreme, Atila's actions warrant the speculation.

And then we have the hypocritical attack on Archbishop Lefebvre's character. I say hypocritical because of the fact the TFP and Plinio have also been the targets of certain one-off "eyewitnesses" who virtually disappear never to be seen or heard from again. TIA really ought to know better than to give space to something like this. The very idea that they would deliberately seek out this course of action is probably the single biggest indicator to me that not all is as it seems over there and why I am now apt to reconsider the previous testimonies and the reluctance of the good Archbishop to associate himself with Plinio in the first place.
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Cera on July 14, 2019, 06:27:49 PM
TFP was condemned long ago; TIA has not been.  Yet you lump them both together.  Your lack of distinguishing is the problem.  The "black and white" thinking is that TFP is condemned, ergo TIA is also.  This is illogical.
It only appears to be illogical if you missed this post:

We are well aware of the story told by TIA of their claimed separation from TFP. We have read the documents presented by Atila to support this claim.
https://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/Internet_Files/F142_Defense_Eng.pdf (https://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/Internet_Files/F142_Defense_Eng.pdf)

Problem One:
Why did Atila fight so hard to remain attached to TFP?
Plinio Correa de Oliveira’s group, TFP, was condemned by the Catholic Church in Brazil and Venezuala.
       "In its 23rd General Assembly, April 10 to 19, 1985, the Bishops approved in plenary session a notice regarding the TFP. It therefore has all the official character of an Assembly of the Bishops of Brazil in Conference, and not simply a press release. The notice reads as follows: "Its esoteric character, religious fanaticism, the cult given to the personality of its founder and head, the abusive use of the name of Most Holy Mary, according to circulated information, cannot in any way merit the approval of the Church. "We lament the difficulties flowing from a civil society which presents itself as a Catholic religious entity, without a tie to the legitimate pastors.
        "This being the case, the Bishops of Brazil exhort Catholics not to enroll in the TFP, and not to collaborate with it.
        "The above stated was signed by +Dom Raymundo Damasceno Asas, Secretary-General of the Conference on National Bishops of Brazil on April 23, 1997."
        Immaculate Heart Messenger, ed. Father Robert J. Fox. January - March 1998 edition p. 29.
  
       In 1984 the local T.F.P. branch was outlawed in Venezuela, accused by a special parliamentary commission of being a "cult ... which warps the minds of young people, turns its members into fanatics and brainwashes them".
        Osservatore Romano, July 7, 1985, p. 12, n. 408, weekly Spanish edition quoted in Tradizione Famiglia Proprietà: Associazione cattolica o sètta millenarista?, Rimini 1996, frontispiece
        http://www.unitypublishing.com/Apparitions/TFP-AmericaNeedsFatima.htm (http://www.unitypublishing.com/Apparitions/TFP-AmericaNeedsFatima.htm)

   Plinio Correa de Oliveira’s group, TFP, was condemned by the civil authorities in Brazil. This was reported by investigator Thomas Case in Fidelity, the monthly organ of the highly conservative Ultra-Montanists in its May 1989 issue.
https://ephesians511blog.com/2013/09/28/america-needs-fatima-a-cult-using-the-fatima-name/ (https://ephesians511blog.com/2013/09/28/america-needs-fatima-a-cult-using-the-fatima-name/)
          
        TFP had been repeatedly accused by the Brazilian authorities of “inducement to flight, reckless transfer, and concealment of minors”–and this despite TFP’s own slavish devotion to the military regime.
        Young men were alleged to have been deceitfully recruited by TFP, to be trained in their academies as “warrior monks” for the cause.
        According to the Brazilian government, TFP sought to obtain legal guardianship over the minor children of parents dedicated to TFP and then turned their sons against both them and the mainstream church, regarded by TFP loyalists as an institutional fraud.


Problem Two:
Why did TIA wait over 20 years to post the purported letter from TFP?  It was supposedly written in 1997, but not made available to the public until after 2017.

TIA’s story is:
“In January 2017, TIA hosted an Event (sic) celebrating the publishing in English of the 11-volume Collection Eli. Eli Lamma Sabacthani? by Atila Sinke Guimarães. . .”

At that event, those present raised questions regarding “the expulsion of Atila from the TFP” and “insisted that a translation of it to English should be available to the public.” 

In response to those questions, Marian Horvat began to translate the supposed document from Portuguese to English.

Problem Three:
For a letter purportedly from a hostile president of the TFP organization from which Atila is, supposedly being cut off, it is surprisingly full of praise for Atila:

This is from:
“The Letter of the President of the TFP to Atila Sinke Guimarães, November 20, 1997
. . .  Very dear Mr. Atila, because of your elevation of sights, your gifts of intelligence, your energy and, above all, the many graces that Our Lady has poured over you, you have a great role to carry out in the  Counter-Revolution  and  in  the  TFP. . . I take leave with inalterable esteem.”

Thats. Just. Odd.
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Viva Cristo Rey on July 14, 2019, 06:56:04 PM
Can’t really trust anyone or any group anymore.  All this bickering is unhealthy too.  
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Struthio on July 14, 2019, 07:36:24 PM
Átila Sinke Guimarães wants his readers to believe that "Our Lady" appeared to "Mother Francisca de los Angeles, the novice mistress" in Quito "in the 1930s" to ask her to pray for his semi-god, Plínio Corrêa de Oliveira:

Quote
The word spread in the Convent that she had received the task to pray for him directly from Our Lady.

More delirious nonsense from TIA:


Quote

Two nuns on the plaza corner

In 1968 and 1969, the TFP was making public campaigns against the infiltration of semi-occult progressivist groups in the Church that wanted to subvert her. The Brazilian monthly Catolicismo had published a special issue on this topic and the TFP activists were spreading that issue among the public. One of the ways TFP accomplished this task was through “caravans.” These caravans were groups of nine young men in a UV who would travel in an area where TFP did not have a seat in order to disseminate a book, magazine or newspaper.

(https://www.traditioninaction.org/bev/bevimages(200-249)/bev233_plaza.jpg)1: The site where Garcia Moreno was killed in the plaza; 2: The Convent of the Immaculate Conception
One of these caravans with Brazilian members was passing through Ecuador, and, even though Quito was not on its planned route, the group decided to stop at La Plaza Grande (the historical center of Quito) to make a campaign in front of the site where Garcia Moreno had been murdered in order to honor that valiant Catholic hero.

They had no idea that the Convent of the Immaculate Conception was on the corner of that Plaza. They looked upon the stop as an impromptu adventure, since these Brazilians did not speak Spanish well and the magazine they were disseminating was in Portuguese. Those facts did not concern them; they were there to pay homage to that great hero whom they admired.

During the campaign they offered the magazine to two nuns who were standing on the corner of the Plaza attentively watching them. The nuns responded, “Come inside, our Abbess wants to speak with you.”

They graciously complied, and the Abbess asked if they could carry down the Statue of Our Lady of Good Success from the Convent’s choir to the Church because it was the date that she should descend but the nuns did not have men to help them with the arduous task. They accepted. Shortly afterwards, when the campaign ended, they entered the Convent and carried down the Statue. This was the beginning.

Later, we learned that Mother Mariana had left a prophecy with this instruction: “When the Franciscans will refuse to carry down the Statue, send two nuns to the corner of La Plaza Grande and there they will find the ones who will replace them.” In fact, some days before, the Franciscans had sent an excuse to the Convent stating they could not bring the Statue down because they had to attend a Liberation Theology meeting.

Praying for Plinio Corrêa de Oliveira

Soon after this incident a TFP seat was established in Quito, without any special link to the Convent or Our Lady of Good Success. The nuns, however, often would send ladies who were their friends with messages to the TFP members asking them to come to the Convent to show them photos of their campaigns.

(https://www.traditioninaction.org/bev/bevimages(200-249)/bev233_Plinio.jpg)Nuns in the Convent were praying by name for Prof. Plinio since the 1930s
In one of these screen projection shows, two or three members of the TFP were in the front near the screen with the cloistered nuns seated behind them, out of the sight of the young men. In a photo of one campaign where Prof. Plinio appeared in a large group of persons, one nun walked up the hallway of the room to the screen and, on her own initiative, pointed to a person, saying, “This one is Dr. Plinio Corrêa de Oliveira.”

And she actually was right on target. That nun was Mother Francisca de los Angeles, the novice mistress.

How did Mother Francisca know about Dr. Plinio? At that time no one could explain the episode; today we know that Mother Francisca de los Angeles had been praying by name for Plinio Corrêa de Oliveira since the 1940s without knowing him personally. The word spread in the Convent that she had received the task to pray for him directly from Our Lady.

Other old nuns at that Convent, whose names I will not reveal now, have affirmed that Our Lady appeared to them in the 1930s and asked them to pray namely for Plinio Corrêa de Oliveira. At that time Prof. Plinio was a young man in his 20s or 30s, a Brazilian who, naturally speaking, would have been completely unknown to these religious women of Quito.

Official request

In 1978 Mother Rosario, then Abbess of the Convent, sent an ambassador to São Paulo – Mr. Luis Fernando Chiriboga Ushina – to deliver a letter to Prof. Plinio. In that letter, which was also signed by all the nuns of the Convent, she officially asked “in the name of Our Lady and mine” for him to provide men to bring down the Statue of Our Lady of Good Success from “now until the end of the world.”

(https://www.traditioninaction.org/bev/bevimages(200-249)/bev233_transfer.jpg)TFP members make the transfer of Our Lady at the request of the Convent
Out of courtesy, Prof. Plinio sent back an amiable response, also official, accepting the mission and thanking Mother Rosario for her trust.

From then on, every time a new Abbess took power, one of Prof. Plinio’s followers would go to her and ask whether or not she wanted to renew that invitation. Until now, all Abbesses have done so by means of a signed document.

Last January this agreement was broken by the present day Abbess, under the pressure of the SSPX’ Agent, La Capitana and Arch. Travez, as I showed in my last article (https://www.traditioninaction.org/bev/232bev05_24_2019.htm#capitana).

These are some facts that I want to record in order to show that the task of bringing the Statue down from the upper choir to the Church was never an initiative or demand made by the TFP or the followers of Prof. Plinio, but rather it was an explicit request of the nuns themselves of the Convent.

With this said, I close the series of articles on the usurpation the SSPX is trying to make in the Convent of the Immaculate Conception in Quito through bribes, intrigues and calumnies.

(https://www.traditioninaction.org/bev/bevimages(200-249)/bev233_ol.jpg)





Source: https://www.traditioninaction.org/bev/233bev05_28_2019.htm (https://www.traditioninaction.org/bev/233bev05_28_2019.htm)
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Struthio on July 14, 2019, 07:54:56 PM
Quote from: Átila Sinke Guimarães
Other old nuns at that Convent, whose names I will not reveal now, have affirmed that Our Lady appeared to them in the 1930s and asked them to pray namely for Plinio Corrêa de Oliveira.

An old professor from São Paulo has written a book about the blasphemous cult of Plínio from Higeniópolis. And he has presented testimony of witnesses on oath registered by a notary. And "Msgr." João Scognamiglio Clá Dias is on record for continuing the blasphemies that the professor denounced.

Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Struthio on July 14, 2019, 08:01:38 PM
Can’t really trust anyone or any group anymore.  

Good idea!

Why would the devil and his troups first attack the Church, and then let those alone who take the faith more serious?
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Pax Vobis on July 14, 2019, 08:21:43 PM
So because TIA is associated with nutt people 20 years ago, and because TIA isn't run by a cleric, that means that everything they do is tainted.  Every article they write is bad.  Every program is wrong.

Got it.  Makes sense.
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Croixalist on July 14, 2019, 08:28:40 PM
Problem Three:
For a letter purportedly from a hostile president of the TFP organization from which Atila is, supposedly being cut off, it is surprisingly full of praise for Atila:

This is from:
“The Letter of the President of the TFP to Atila Sinke Guimarães, November 20, 1997
. . .  Very dear Mr. Atila, because of your elevation of sights, your gifts of intelligence, your energy and, above all, the many graces that Our Lady has poured over you, you have a great role to carry out in the  Counter-Revolution  and  in  the  TFP. . . I take leave with inalterable esteem.”

Thats. Just. Odd.

Yes, very strange and sycophantic. That is an ever-so-slight contradiction in their Q&A on the subject:

"The cordial relations of both Atila Guimarães and Marian Horvat with TFP ceased when they published the book In the Murky Waters of Vatican II. There is no relationship at present – official or otherwise – between the two organizations."
https://www.traditioninaction.org/Questions/A004_tfp.htm


All this bickering is unhealthy too.  

Well, what are you waiting for and agree with me!  :really-mad2:



:laugh1:


Átila Sinke Guimarães wants his readers to believe that "Our Lady" appeared to "Mother Francisca de los Angeles, the novice mistress" in Quito "in the 1930s" to ask her to pray for his semi-god, Plínio Corrêa de Oliveira:

More delirious nonsense from TIA:



Source: https://www.traditioninaction.org/bev/233bev05_28_2019.htm (https://www.traditioninaction.org/bev/233bev05_28_2019.htm)

A series of miraculous events which can only be verified by people long dead or who enjoy a full cloak of anonymity given to them via the TIA witness protection program. In other words, "Trust me, I know people who've seen things!"

Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Alan on July 14, 2019, 08:29:15 PM
Problem One:
Why did Atila fight so hard to remain attached to TFP?
Plinio Correa de Oliveira’s group, TFP, was condemned by the Catholic Church in Brazil and Venezuala.
...
...
...
Thats. Just. Odd.


It's just odd, Cera, that you only chose certain messages to refute, but not mine --- because you couldn't.

You know the TFP is doing good works for God and Our Lady, that's why you couldn't refute my messages. You only presented the "condemnations" of some bishops, but we already know how bad some bishops have become after Vatican Council II.

Mr Taylor Marshall recently even published the book "Infiltration" which exposes the infiltration of communists into the Church. Being a bishop and cardinal today doesn't guarantee a person is loyal to the Church. So the TFP being condemned by some bishops does not proof the TFP is anti-Catholic.

How anti-Catholic is the TFP??  Is it anti-Catholic to promote the Rosary?  Is it anti-Catholic to fight against abortion?  Is it anti-Catholic to fight against same sex marriage?  Is it anti-Catholic to promote "True devotion to Mary"?

Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Struthio on July 14, 2019, 08:40:24 PM
So because TIA is associated with nutt people 20 years ago, and because TIA isn't run by a cleric, that means that everything they do is tainted.  Every article they write is bad.  Every program is wrong.

Got it.  Makes sense.

Átila Sinke Guimarães wants to make people believe in a ludicrous tale of an apparition of Our Lady in Quito elevating Plínio Corrêa de Oliveira to semi-god status.

I want to remind readers that Plínio Corrêa de Oliveira has been worshipped before by TFP and Arautos do Evangelho.
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Croixalist on July 14, 2019, 08:45:29 PM
It's just odd, Cera, that you only chose certain messages to refute, but not mine --- because you couldn't.

You know the TFP is doing good works for God and Our Lady, that's why you couldn't refute my messages. You only presented the "condemnations" of some bishops, but we already know how bad some bishops have become after Vatican Council II.

Mr Taylor Marshall recently even published the book "Infiltration" which exposes the infiltration of communists into the Church. Being a bishop and cardinal today doesn't guarantee a person is loyal to the Church. So he TFP being condemned by some bishops does not proof the TFP is anti-Catholic.

How anti-Catholic is the TFP??  Is it anti-Catholic to promote the Rosary?  Is it anti-Catholic to fight against abortion?  Is it anti-Catholic to fight against same sex marriage?  Is it anti-Catholic to promote "True devotion to Mary"?

TFP is fine as long as you don't expect them to go out on a limb on VII. We should probably distinguish Plinio-era TFP with post-Atila TFP. Past TFP is only being brought up now because of TIA's desire to promote it, even going so far as to defend current TFP to do it. There's a lot of crossed wires.
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Struthio on July 14, 2019, 08:47:40 PM
Quote
The cordial relations of both Atila Guimarães and Marian Horvat with TFP ceased

Simple explanation: After the death of Plínio, the TFP split into two parts fighting each other. They even went to court.

Guimarães and Horvat later split from one of the two.

But all venerate or worship Plínio.
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Pax Vobis on July 14, 2019, 11:55:24 PM
Struthio, your response in no way answered my comment.  
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Struthio on July 14, 2019, 11:57:28 PM
Struthio, your response in no way answered my comment.  

Well, you didn't say anything I would have to answer.

Actually, you didn't say anything anyone here would have to answer.
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Struthio on July 15, 2019, 12:02:27 AM
Look Pax Vobis: Átila is inventing apparitions of Our Lady to further his Plínio-cult.

Aren't you able to read and grasp the situation?
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Alan on July 15, 2019, 12:23:18 AM
Can’t really trust anyone or any group anymore.   

That's exactly the outcome that the devil wants !

"Divide and Conquer" is his favourite tactic.
He wants to see divisions among Catholics, he love to see Catholics fighting Catholics, and Catholic organisations splitting.
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Struthio on July 15, 2019, 12:30:14 AM
That's exactly the outcome that the devil wants !

"Divide and Conquer" is his favourite tactic.
He wants to see divisions among Catholics, he love to see Catholics fighting Catholics, and Catholic organisations splitting.

That's an argument against Lefebvre and an argument against Plínio. Both created organisations that split Catholics from the conciliar mainstream (which both later split further).

Look: The devil leads you into logical inconsistencies. Like all modernism is contradictory in itself.
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Pax Vobis on July 15, 2019, 08:40:32 AM
Quote
Well, you didn't say anything I would have to answer.

Then don't quote my post next time.

Quote
Look Pax Vobis: Átila is inventing apparitions of Our Lady to further his Plínio-cult.

Aren't you able to read and grasp the situation?
Does that mean that the entire TIA organization is corrupt?  No.  +Fellay lied and manipulated the entire sspx when he used the millions of rosaries said for the consecration of Russia to further his agenda with new-rome by saying Our Lady had obtained the excommunication removals.  This is just as blasphemous.  Do +Fellay's actions mean that every sspx priest is corrupt?  No.

My whole point is that you cannot write-off an entire organization just because leadership is bad.  Should you be cautious?  Yes.  Should you spread awareness of the bad acts?  Yes.  Should you challenge the bad leadership?  Yes.  But life is all about taking the good and ignoring the bad.  Christ told us the wheat and the chaff will always be growing together.  It's unavoidable.
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Alan on July 15, 2019, 09:05:22 AM
That's an argument against Lefebvre and an argument against Plínio. Both created organisations that split Catholics from the conciliar mainstream (which both later split further).

Ridiculous.

You speak as if the post-concilliar Church is orthodox and loyal to Christ, and the TFP is creating divisions and chaos.
It seems that you believe in modernism.

In fact, if someone is fighting against heresy or corruption, we don't call it creating division, but you did -- this tells us something about you.
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Croixalist on July 15, 2019, 10:02:47 AM
The essential problem with Plinio as I see it is that he wasn't very transparent with his organization. TFP wasn't a religious order, but it also demanded much more from its members than a lay organization ever would or had a right to. While he was alive, he was mostly well known for going after Communism, but he stopped short of VII. Going by Atila's account, he would have publicly endorsed the Murky Waters book had he lived to see its publication but as it stood, it was almost 30 years after SSPX had already been duking it out in the public square. Many people voiced concerns privately during and after the council, but almost no one had the courage to stand up to it. Plinio, Atila, and the TFP were no exception to that rule for the first 30 years but Abp. Lefebvre and the SSPX were.

That is not to say that newcomers aren't welcome but when TIA wants to suddenly build up Plinio as some great leader of traditionalism ahead of the Archbishop, that's when they have to learn their place.

Archbishop Lefebvre was tasked with having to navigate through the corrupted hierarchy of the Church, a path he had to chart without much assistance. Sometimes he had to figure it out as he went along. The recent Neo-Conning of the SSPX was certainly not his doing, nor is it the fault of the good religious and laity who would form the Resistance in reaction to it, many times as the result of undue expulsion from it. I sympathize with all the good people involved on each side, but the real answer must come from the very top. All of this is basic survival at the provisional level. We can barely maintain much less improve the situation.