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Traditional Catholic Faith => SSPX Resistance News => Topic started by: Matthew on June 24, 2019, 08:03:59 AM

Title: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Matthew on June 24, 2019, 08:03:59 AM
Warning from a Traditional Catholic priest familiar with the group:


Quote
In case you don’t know TIA is a branch of Tradition Family and Property founded by Plinio Correa de Oliveira in Brazil.

Bp de Castro Mayer, after supporting them, in 1983 publicly dissociated from this organization and condemned them, as they became a real sect evolving into a cult of their founder and esoteric practices.

I knew them very well in South America. They're dangerous!
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Incredulous on June 24, 2019, 08:22:56 AM


This is great information!

Who was the priest?

Why are they dangerous?

Did you know TIA and TFP have been separated for almost 20 years?  Their dispute is on allegiance to the Consiliar church.

And I suppose in all the debate, Bp. Castro Meyer is absolved from his signatures on the VII documents too?
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Last Tradhican on June 24, 2019, 10:12:12 AM
The SSPX is against Tradition in Action TIA and Atila Guimaraes and company because they publish articles EVERYDAY and publish books about what is really going on, the SSPX does no such thing. TIA publishes daily articles like this one today:

Francis honors Jeffrey Sachs at ecological meeting
Jeffrey Sachs, above, second from the left, is one of the main promoters of the UN's abortionist policies around the world. He holds UN titles such as director of the Sustainable Development Solutions Network (SDSN). He also serves as special advisor to the UN Secretary on the Millennium Development Goals (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millennium_Development_Goals).

He uses these positions to argue that, to prevent poverty and advance economic development, abortion and mass sterilization must be enforced by the UN in many countries through financial pressure and government policies.

 Further, Sachs is an economist who is a close collaborator with magnate George Soros. It is not rare that Sach's environmental initiatives bring substantial gains to Soros investments.

After Francis' inauguration, Sachs has received preferential treatment at the Vatican. He is habitually quoted as being one of the minds behind the Vatican ecological program, including the draft of Francis' Encyclical

(https://traditioninaction.org/bev/180bev07_31_2015.htm)
For full article see https://traditioninaction.org/RevolutionPhotos/A838-Sach.htm (https://traditioninaction.org/RevolutionPhotos/A838-Sach.htm)
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Meg on June 24, 2019, 01:00:04 PM
Did you know TIA and TFP have been separated for almost 20 years?  Their dispute is on allegiance to the Consiliar church.


I don't think that the separation is relevant. After all, both groups seem to have the same views about Plinio de Oliviera, don't they?
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Matthew on June 25, 2019, 12:08:52 AM
Here is a translation into English of the letter sent by Bp de Castro Mayer to a friend layman explaining in 1984 the grave reasons why he dissociated from the TFP the year before.

———-
LETTER OF BISHOP DE CASTRO MAYER ON THE TFP

(The following letter, addressed to a layman friend, dated 1984, was published in the Brazilian newspaper Folha da Manhã in 1991)

Dear N.,

I owe you an answer to your painful letter of September 24 [1984] that, as the postmark indicates, you sent me on September 25th.

In this case I can only give you one advice: pray, pray a lot, above all the [15 decade] Rosary or at least the [5 decade] Rosary, asking the Virgin Mother, Mediatrix of all graces, to enlighten her son and make him see that the TFP is a heretical sect because, in fact, although they do not say or write, the TFP lives and behaves according to a principle that fundamentally undermines the truth of Christendom, that is, of the Catholic Church.

Indeed, it is de fide that Jesus Christ founded His Church - designed to keep the true worship of God on earth and to bring souls to eternal salvation - as an unequal society composed of two classes: one that governs, teaches, and sanctifies, composed of members of the clergy, and another - the faithful - who receive the teaching, are governed and sanctified: This is a dogma de fide.

St. Pius X wrote that the Church is, in its own nature, an unequal society, meaning that it comprises two orders of persons: shepherds and flock, those belonging to the various levels of the hierarchy, and the multitude of the faithful. These two orders are so utterly distinct that only the hierarchy has the right and authority to guide and govern the members for the purposes of the Church, while the duty of the faithful is to let themselves to be governed and to obediently follow the given path by the ruling class. (Encyclical "Vehementer", February 11, 1906.) The whole history of the Church, as can be seen in the New Testament, attests to this truth as a fundamental dogma of the Church's constitution. It was only to the Apostles that Jesus said, "Go and teach all nations." Also the Acts of the Apostles show us the life of the Church in the times after Jesus Christ. Because of this, it is a heretical subversion to usually follow a layman - therefore a non-member of the Hierarchy - as a spokesman for orthodoxy. So they do not look at what the Church says, what the bishops say, but what this or that [layman] says... And it does not end there: this attitude - even if not openly stated - in fact positions the "leader" as the arbiter of orthodoxy, and is accompanied by a sudden but real mistrust of the hierarchy and clergy in general.

There is a visceral anti-clericalism in the TFP: everything that comes from the clergy is biasedly received. Basically, it is affirmed that all priests are ignorant, lacking zeal or interested and such other characteristics. Well, thus, having in mind the divine constitution of the Church which was instituted by Jesus Christ, the habitual anti-clericalism of the TFP, latent, makes it a heretical sect, and therefore, as I said, animated by a principle contrary to established dogma by Jesus Christ in the constitution of His Church.

The TFP, however, had a healthy beginning. There was a certain evolution in the apostolate made by the biweekly newspaper of the Marian Congregation of St. Cecilia entitled The Legionary.

As a serious and well-intentioned movement, it sought to strengthen the intellectual and religious formation of the members of the Congregation and, consequently, of the biweekly readers. It was influential throughout Brazil. This was the era of [its] obedience to Monsignors Duarte and Leme. I followed and approved of its apostolate, also when it began to fall itself into the anti-clerical spirit, which began by consolidating its positions and then reversing them, putting the Clergy in tow behind a charismatic layman with the monopoly of orthodoxy. Maybe I gave them support beyond a licit point. I withdrew it only when it became clear that my warnings were not being taken into account. They have become useless.

It is true to note that the deceptions of certain members of the Hierarchy... explain the scandal of the "TFPists", but this does not justify the positions they have taken. And much less for its leader, Plinio.

In this case, as I said at the beginning of this letter, the remedy is to pray. First, because without prayer nothing is obtained: "Ask," says Our Lord, "and you will receive." It is necessary to pray because charismatic fervor produces a certain fanaticism: individuals become incapable of seeing the objective reality, of perceiving even fundamental errors, because of this inversion of following a layman instead of the legitimate Pastors of the Holy Church. 
As I have noted, members of the hierarchy unfortunately and often utter words and take positions that any Catholic can see as dissonant of the doctrine and government of the Church of all times...

I ask Our Lord to give you, and your whole family, a Holy and Merry Christmas and many years full of the grace of God.

I pray that you pray for me, a servant in Christ Jesus.

Antônio de Castro Mayer, Bishop Emeritus of Campos.
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Francisco on June 25, 2019, 03:33:52 AM
Dear Atila Sinke Guimaraes
Please give up the TIA and join the SSPX ( or offshoots)
They Tarzan
You Dirt
Everybody else
Sedevacantists
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Incredulous on June 25, 2019, 08:41:15 AM
Dear Atila Sinke Guimaraes
Please give up the TIA and join the SSPX ( or offshoots)
They Tarzan
You Dirt
Everybody else
Sedevacantists


Atila needs new formation.


(https://proxy.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fmemegenerator.net%2Fimg%2Finstances%2F500x%2F67090986%2Fyou-got-to-git-your-mind-right-luke-my-mind-is-right-boss.jpg&f=1)

Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Incredulous on June 25, 2019, 08:53:57 AM



Atila is a scholar, a thinker and a writer.

He'd be valuable to Fr. Wegner's "Dutch Branding" company, to help write Bp. Fellay's pre-Canonization biography.
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Cera on June 25, 2019, 05:51:15 PM


Atila is a scholar, a thinker and a writer.

He'd be valuable to Fr. Wegner's "Dutch Branding" company, to help write Bp. Fellay's pre-Canonization biography.
Atila is slave # 11, not a slave to Mary, but a slave to Plinio.

The following declaration was registered at the Public Archives (August 24, 1984) and published on March 14 1985 in the newspaper La Folha de Manha.

I, the undersigned, Filipe de Freitas Guimarães Ablas, RG (General Registry) 3706587, SP, marital status - unmarried, living in Curitiba (Brazil), Manoel C. so Ribas, No 418, swear to be true that when I belonged to the TFP, Brazilian Society for the Defense of Tradition, Family and Property, in 1967 I entered into a secret society of that association, known as "Sacred Slavery" [Sempre Viva], also known by its members as "Still Living".

The members of this secret society have made a consecration of themselves as slaves of Dr Plinio Corrêa de Oliveira in the same sense in which St. Louis de Montfort Grignion recommended it be done for the Madonna. For this consecration, as a slave to Dr. Plinio, was used the same text drawn up by St. Louis for the consecration to Our Lady, with some adaptation.  . . .

I am not the one who is alive but it is My Lord [Plinio] that lives in me. From him everything comes to me, his spirit is living in me, and I can imitate in this union of  slavery, everything that he is. In the climate of our days, without greatness, without horizons, given over to optimism and mediocrity, time will bring great events to us, with great horizons, in which I will have to live as a hero of the same magnitude as My Lord [Plinio]. Looking inside myself and seeing a lot of smallness, I know that faith requires me to imitate My Lord [Plinio], and I will make of myself a perfect Apostle of the Last Times, according to the prophetic prayer of St. Louis de Montfort Grignion. In all this I ask My Lord [Plinio] to help my unbelief. "

Prayers were also recited to him [Plinio], as a parody of the Ave Maria, which incorporate the prophecies of St. Louis, St. Elias and himself: . . ." There was also a Litany for him, the 'Doctor', and they said that the prayers had been composed by Marcos Ribeiro Dantas (slave Plinio Paul).

In one of these ejaculatory prayers to Dr. Plinio it was prayed: "The forerunner of Elijah, pray for us!"


The slaves of Dr. Plinio had the habit of confessing to him, confessing their failings and even their sins. After the accusation, if the slave asked for a penance, Dr Plinio had the habit of giving three slaps to the face of the slave. Following this, he would impart the blessing.


Dr. Plinio sat on a small throne with the habit and the mantle of the Third Order. The assistants used a habit without the mantle. The person who was about to be introduced to that company relaxed, as if dead, prostrate upon the ground in front of Dr. Plinio. At this point, from Dr. Plinio, was received the order to stand up to receive a new life and he [Plinio] intoned: "Exsurge." This meant that the person had died and was born a new man, a slave of the prophet, an Apostle of the Last Times.


We could not communicate with other members of TFP the existence of "Sacred Slavery," because - of course - of the nature of this secret society.

The twelve first slaves were:

1) Caio Vidigal Xavier da Silveira - Plinio Mário.
2) Eduardo Barros Brotero - Plinio Eduardo.
3) Luiz Nazareno of Assunpção Filho - Plinio Luiz.
4) João Clá Dias Scognamiglio - Plinio Fernando.
5) Humberto Braccesi - Plinio Cirineu.
6) Fernando Siqueira - Plinio Bernardo.
7) Carlos Espírito Hofmeister Poly - Plinio Jose.
 Marcos Ribeiro Dantes - Plinio Paulo.
9) Mário Navarro da Costa - Plinio Elias.
10) Dom Bertrand de Orleans e Bragança - Plinio Miguel.
11) Atila Sinke Guimarães - Plinio Márcio.
12) Becca Cosme Varella Hijo - Plinio Lázaro.
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Incredulous on June 25, 2019, 06:14:44 PM


Trad -granny... tell me the truth now.


Is your PhD in the Microsoft cut & paste tool?

(https://proxy.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Ftse2.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DOIP.0-Zrhnn8da4WyU2hWSuYUQHaHy%26pid%3DApi&f=1)

How many times are you going to cut & paste that same old trash?


Can't you do something else?  

My goodness ! :farmer:

Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: tdrev123 on June 25, 2019, 06:24:44 PM
So the Bishop said TFP mistrusts the clergy....

Matthew aren't you a resistance supporter?  The whole point of resistance is mistrusting the clergy!  

All that letter is was a conciliar bishop who didn't like the fact the TFP thinks there are smarter then the Conciliar church...Um Hello that is what traditional Catholicism is you ignoramus's. 
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Matthew on June 25, 2019, 06:36:14 PM
So the Bishop said TFP mistrusts the clergy....

Matthew aren't you a resistance supporter?  The whole point of resistance is mistrusting the clergy!  

All that letter is was a conciliar bishop who didn't like the fact the TFP thinks there are smarter then the Conciliar church...Um Hello that is what traditional Catholicism is you ignoramus's.
Bp. de Castro Mayer wasn't a "conciliar bishop", you ignoramus.
He rejected Vatican II all the way.
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Matthew on June 25, 2019, 06:40:01 PM
Incredulous, is that the best you can do to rebut that "cut & paste"?

The content "cut/pasted" by Cera, above, is completely and utterly damning of Plinio, the TFP, etc.!

After reading that, I understand why the Traditional priest contacted me about the TFP threads on CathInfo. I had already heard bad things about the TFP, so I was inclined to post some warnings anyhow.

Why don't you at least ATTEMPT to critique the content, rather than blatantly, transparently attacking the messenger for cut/pasting and sharing this important information (once again) with the readers of CathInfo.
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Croixalist on June 25, 2019, 07:23:40 PM
The "Trad-Granny" thing is a bit much Incred. Stick to the argument, there's plenty to be had.

More than Mr. Armour's or Mr. Ablas' detailed testimony, we have Atila attempting to excuse the TFP practice of referring to themselves as "slaves" to Plinio. I don't care if it's in addition to being slaves to Our Lady, St. Montfort did not proscribe any such spiritual obedience to a layman, nor can I imagine a scenario where such a practice would be appropriate. This to me was a major indication that the aforementioned testimonies had at least a kernel of truth to them. It would be helpful if more people came forward about this. We only have insider info from two sources in two different parts of the world and those sources were unknown to begin with and completely disappeared from the traditional scene after they spoke up.

Whether Atila and TIA know it or not, they are the ones providing the strongest evidence for the disordered foundation of the TFP. By turning their axe to the roots of the SSPX, they reveal the tree rot of their own group and their sole claim to orthodoxy from the onset of the VII era. 
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Last Tradhican on June 26, 2019, 06:50:33 AM
Quote
In case you don’t know TIA is a branch of Tradition Family and Property founded by Plinio Correa de Oliveira in Brazil.

Bp de Castro Mayer, after supporting them, in 1983 publicly dissociated from this organization and condemned them, as they became a real sect evolving into a cult of their founder and esoteric practices.

I knew them very well in South America. They're dangerous!
This says nothing, it is just one priest's warning, why should anyone listen to an anonymous priest who says just that "they are dangerous"? How exactly are they dangerous? No organization today is without a dangerous feature and one has to be aware of it, but to dismiss the TIA website with all of its pure Catholic teachings because a priest says Plinio was dangerous, is pure foolishness.

It is akin to I totally dismissing the SSPX and all of the sede groups because they teach that Mohamedans, Jews, Hindus.... people in any false religion can be saved by their belief in a God that rewards, in fact, it is worse to dismiss the TIA website, for they do not teach, push any such teachings. (P.S.- I've been going to SSPX chapels for over 20 years and I would go to a sede chapel if there was one close by, as long as I was certain about the validity of the priest)
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Last Tradhican on June 26, 2019, 06:58:44 AM
Atila is slave # 11, not a slave to Mary, but a slave to Plinio.

The following declaration was registered at the Public Archives (August 24, 1984) and published on March 14 1985 in the newspaper La Folha de Manha.
Thanks for the warning, but I would not become a slave to any man, so it is good to know, but not of any other use to me.

That is the problem with people who follow personalities, and most people follow personalities, defending them as if they were personally being attacked. This is what the SSPXers do with the SSPX and Abp. Lefebvre, Bp. Williamson, Bp. Fellay……..

I follow only truth. 

(by the way,  Bp. Willamson many times has said everything I wrote above)
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Cera on June 26, 2019, 04:42:40 PM
So the Bishop said TFP mistrusts the clergy....

Matthew aren't you a resistance supporter?  The whole point of resistance is mistrusting the clergy!  

All that letter is was a conciliar bishop who didn't like the fact the TFP thinks there are smarter then the Conciliar church...Um Hello that is what traditional Catholicism is you ignoramus's.
It's bad enough that you cannot give a rational answer.
It's bad enough that you so often resort to name-calling.
But then you top it off by a grammatical error in you name-calling.
The plural of ignoramus is ignoramuses. Your use of an apostrophe makes the word possessive.


Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Cera on June 26, 2019, 04:46:39 PM
Thanks for the warning, but I would not become a slave to any man,

I am truly happy to hear that you would not become a slave to another human being in an anti-Catholic mockery of a Catholic consecration to Mary.
However, does it not make you stop and think about the anti-Catholic, heretical act that Atila, head of Tradition in Action, engaging in when he made himself a slave to his master Plinio?
Why would you trust any words that come from the pen of this anti-Catholic heretic?
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Last Tradhican on June 26, 2019, 05:36:02 PM
However, does it not make you stop and think about the anti-Catholic, heretical act that Atila, head of Tradition in Action, engaging in when he made himself a slave to his master Plinio?
Why would you trust any words that come from the pen of this anti-Catholic heretic?
I trust him because he has developed my trust over like 10 years+ that I have been reading what he writes, and not one word was "anti-Catholic heretical".

You on the other hand have developed yourself into someone not worth listening to. You have a strange hatred of Atila Guimaraes which is not at all related with what he has written. I smell a communist. 
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Cera on July 01, 2019, 06:41:51 PM
The "Trad-Granny" thing is a bit much Incred. Stick to the argument, there's plenty to be had.

More than Mr. Armour's or Mr. Ablas' detailed testimony, we have Atila attempting to excuse the TFP practice of referring to themselves as "slaves" to Plinio. I don't care if it's in addition to being slaves to Our Lady, St. Montfort did not proscribe any such spiritual obedience to a layman, nor can I imagine a scenario where such a practice would be appropriate. This to me was a major indication that the aforementioned testimonies had at least a kernel of truth to them. It would be helpful if more people came forward about this. We only have insider info from two sources in two different parts of the world and those sources were unknown to begin with and completely disappeared from the traditional scene after they spoke up.

Whether Atila and TIA know it or not, they are the ones providing the strongest evidence for the disordered foundation of the TFP. By turning their axe to the roots of the SSPX, they reveal the tree rot of their own group and their sole claim to orthodoxy from the onset of the VII era.
:jumping2:
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Meg on July 02, 2019, 05:25:39 AM
Thanks for the warning, but I would not become a slave to any man, so it is good to know, but not of any other use to me.

That is the problem with people who follow personalities, and most people follow personalities, defending them as if they were personally being attacked. This is what the SSPXers do with the SSPX and Abp. Lefebvre, Bp. Williamson, Bp. Fellay……..

I follow only truth.

(by the way,  Bp. Willamson many times has said everything I wrote above)

Those who follow and support Guimaraes/TIA/TFP tend to act as though they are being personally attacked when Guimaraes/TIA/TFP is criticized. The problems with TFP, and by extension TIA, shouldn't be swept under the rug just because there are those who deny that there is a problem. It would be like denying that there is a problem with the Neo-SSPX.
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Ladislaus on July 02, 2019, 07:54:09 AM
This says nothing, it is just one priest's warning, why should anyone listen to an anonymous priest who says just that "they are dangerous"? How exactly are they dangerous? No organization today is without a dangerous feature and one has to be aware of it, but to dismiss the TIA website with all of its pure Catholic teachings because a priest says Plinio was dangerous, is pure foolishness.

THIS^^^
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Incredulous on July 02, 2019, 11:06:49 AM
It's bad enough that you cannot give a rational answer.
It's bad enough that you so often resort to name-calling.
But then you top it off by a grammatical error in you name-calling.
The plural of ignoramus is ignoramuses. Your use of an apostrophe makes the word possessive.

Trad granny,

Please consider the following:

So well respected is your forum troll reputation, that no one bothers to take the time to make their responses to you grammatically correct.

:jester:
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Cera on July 07, 2019, 03:49:10 PM
Those who follow and support Guimaraes/TIA/TFP tend to act as though they are being personally attacked when Guimaraes/TIA/TFP is criticized. The problems with TFP, and by extension TIA, shouldn't be swept under the rug just because there are those who deny that there is a problem. It would be like denying that there is a problem with the Neo-SSPX.
:applause: :applause: :applause:
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Cera on July 11, 2019, 06:21:21 PM
BTT
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Your Friend Colin on July 11, 2019, 06:24:09 PM
No. Please stop, Cera. We’ve all had enough of this. 

Why are you so fixated on discrediting TFP/TIA?
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Ladislaus on July 11, 2019, 06:42:37 PM
No. Please stop, Cera. We’ve all had enough of this.

Why are you so fixated on discrediting TFP/TIA?

She refuses to fess up about why she has a personal grudge against them.  Maybe she dated a TFP guy and got dumped.  Who knows?
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Alan on July 11, 2019, 08:28:57 PM
I don't think TFP and TIA are heretical;  compared to many bishops today, they are super orthodox.
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Struthio on July 11, 2019, 09:39:33 PM
Warning from a Traditional Catholic priest familiar with the group:

Quote
In case you don’t know TIA is a branch of Tradition Family and Property founded by Plinio Correa de Oliveira in Brazil.

Bp de Castro Mayer, after supporting them, in 1983 publicly dissociated from this organization and condemned them, as they became a real sect evolving into a cult of their founder and esoteric practices.

I knew them very well in South America. They're dangerous!


Dr. Orlando Fedeli, a secondary school teacher and professor at the Pontifical University of Sâo Paulo, had been a TFPista and follower of Plínio Corrêa de Oliveira for decades before leaving and turning himself into a fierce critic of Plínio and his TFP. Inter alia, he wrote a book titled No País das Maravilhas: a Gnose Burlesca da TFP e dos Arautos do Evangelho (In Wonderland: The Burlesque Gnosis of the TFP and the Herolds of the Gospel). The Arautos of João Scognamiglio Clá Dias are one of two main TFP successor organisations in Brazil. Fedeli denounced an inner TFP circle, a blasphemous cult in which our Lord and our Lady were replaced by Plínio and his mother Lucilia.

Fedeli founded his own organisation, the Associação Cultural Montfort, which split into two a few years after his death in 2010. Docile followers turning into headstrong competitors.

Different from Orlando Fedeli, the italian Roberto de Mattei penned an awe-inspiring hagiography of Plínio Corrêa.

Some years ago, an audio of a conference of João Scognamiglio Clá Dias could be found on gloria.tv, youtube etc. in which Clá Dias taught his followers a mockery and blasphemy. He praised a disfigured version of the words of St. Paul

 "It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me" (Gal 2:20)

where the word Christ was replaced by the name Plínio, as the state of mind to strive for. The audio showed that the allegations of Fedeli had not been an invention.

The audio as well as the whole affair was nauseating.

Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Alan on July 11, 2019, 10:19:53 PM
The devil loves the "Divide and Conquer" tactic.

He loves seeing Catholics fighting against each other and seeing Catholics leaving traditionalist Catholic organisations.
Some people are leaving those organisations due to imperfections there as if they could only serve "perfect" organisations, "imperfect" ones are not worthy of their services. In other words, they will only serve saints.

Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Struthio on July 11, 2019, 10:23:46 PM
The devil loves blasphemy.
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Cera on July 12, 2019, 02:55:15 PM
No. Please stop, Cera. We’ve all had enough of this.

Why are you so fixated on discrediting TFP/TIA?
Those of us who love Truth also love the truth. Facts are presented regarding an anti-Catholic heretical sect which purports to be Catholic. Instead of rational arguments against the facts, TFP/TIA cult members instead:
1. cut-and-paste from their TIA guru,
2. name-call,
3. demand that the facts not be posted.
I continue to pray for all of those who have become deluded by this "anti-Catholic, anti-clerical heretical sect" as Bishop Mayer called the Plinio- worshiping TFP.
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Cera on July 12, 2019, 02:58:22 PM
repeat
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Cera on July 12, 2019, 03:09:36 PM



Dr. Orlando Fedeli, a secondary school teacher and professor at the Pontifical University of Sâo Paulo, had been a TFPista and follower of Plínio Corrêa de Oliveira for decades before leaving and turning himself into a fierce critic of Plínio and his TFP. Inter alia, he wrote a book titled No País das Maravilhas: a Gnose Burlesca da TFP e dos Arautos do Evangelho (In Wonderland: The Burlesque Gnosis of the TFP and the Herolds of the Gospel). The Arautos of João Scognamiglio Clá Dias are one of two main TFP successor organisations in Brazil. Fedeli denounced an inner TFP circle, a blasphemous cult in which our Lord and our Lady were replaced by Plínio and his mother Lucilia.

Fedeli founded his own organisation, the Associação Cultural Montfort, which split into two a few years after his death in 2010. Docile followers turning into headstrong competitors.

Different from Orlando Fedeli, the italian Roberto de Mattei penned an awe-inspiring hagiography of Plínio Corrêa.

Some years ago, an audio of a conference of João Scognamiglio Clá Dias could be found on gloria.tv, youtube etc. in which Clá Dias taught his followers a mockery and blasphemy. He praised a disfigured version of the words of St. Paul

 "It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me" (Gal 2:20)

where the word Christ was replaced by the name Plínio, as the state of mind to strive for. The audio showed that the allegations of Fedeli had not been an invention.

The audio as well as the whole affair was nauseating.
Thank you for the detailed background on this. The blasphemous "prayer" to Plinio has been posted here previously and the response from the Plinio- worshipers here on Cath Info has been limited to personal attacks and demands that the facts no longer be posted
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Meg on July 12, 2019, 05:46:24 PM
Dr. Orlando Fedeli, a secondary school teacher and professor at the Pontifical University of Sâo Paulo, had been a TFPista and follower of Plínio Corrêa de Oliveira for decades before leaving and turning himself into a fierce critic of Plínio and his TFP. Inter alia, he wrote a book titled No País das Maravilhas: a Gnose Burlesca da TFP e dos Arautos do Evangelho (In Wonderland: The Burlesque Gnosis of the TFP and the Herolds of the Gospel). The Arautos of João Scognamiglio Clá Dias are one of two main TFP successor organisations in Brazil. Fedeli denounced an inner TFP circle, a blasphemous cult in which our Lord and our Lady were replaced by Plínio and his mother Lucilia.

Quote from above:
"Fedeli denounced an inner TFP circle, a blasphemous cult in which our Lord and our Lady were replaced by Plinio and his mother Lucilia."

My question is, why have those who support Plinio/TFP on this forum not tried to refute these allegations? All they have done is to refer to a refutation by Guimaraes, but that doesn't cut it. It is a serious accusation, and it needs to be addressed in a forthright manner.

Did Plinio indeed put himself in place of our Lord, and his mother Lucilia in place of our Lady? Because if he did, then there was a very serious problem with Plinio de Oliviera.

Also, it seems that there may have been a (secret?) inner circle, which is mentioned in the above quote. Is it possible that most of the followers of Plinio/TFP were not aware of an inner circle?
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Alan on July 13, 2019, 05:06:37 AM
Quote from above:
...
...
Did Plinio indeed put himself in place of our Lord, and his mother Lucilia in place of our Lady? Because if he did, then there was a very serious problem with Plinio de Oliviera.

Also, it seems that there may have been a (secret?) inner circle, which is mentioned in the above quote. Is it possible that most of the followers of Plinio/TFP were not aware of an inner circle?

I don't think Mr Plinio C de Oliveira did put his mother in place of Our Lady because he is a zealous promoter of the Rosary and Fatima message, more than many priests of today.


I don't think he put himself in place of Our Lord too, because I never heard him promoting or glorifying himself but only Our Lord and Our Lady.

Is the TFP anti-Catholic? Judge them by their actions.
"You will know them by their fruits....Even so, every good tree bears good fruit; but the bad tree bears bad fruit” (Matthew 7:15-17).

Did they promote abortion or fight against it?
Did they promote sodomy or fight against it?
Did they promote "True devotion to Mary" or fight against it?
etc.
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Incredulous on July 13, 2019, 08:33:49 AM
Quote from above:
"Fedeli denounced an inner TFP circle, a blasphemous cult in which our Lord and our Lady were replaced by Plinio and his mother Lucilia."

My question is, why have those who support Plinio/TFP on this forum not tried to refute these allegations? All they have done is to refer to a refutation by Guimaraes, but that doesn't cut it. It is a serious accusation, and it needs to be addressed in a forthright manner.

Did Plinio indeed put himself in place of our Lord, and his mother Lucilia in place of our Lady? Because if he did, then there was a very serious problem with Plinio de Oliviera.

Also, it seems that there may have been a (secret?) inner circle, which is mentioned in the above quote. Is it possible that most of the followers of Plinio/TFP were not aware of an inner circle?


Meg,

Let's cut to the chase.

Are you actually Jade Liboro, posting for the benefit of the SSPX?  :-\
You've been on this forum since 2013.  Jade's been in the Quito convent since 2014.

An honest response would be appreciated by all.
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Meg on July 13, 2019, 08:35:05 AM

I don't think Mr Plinio C de Oliveira did put his mother in place of Our Lady because he is a zealous promoter of the Rosary and Fatima message, more than many priests of today.


I don't think he put himself in place of Our Lord too, because I never heard him promoting or glorifying himself but only Our Lord and Our Lady.

Is the TFP anti-Catholic? Judge them by their actions.
"You will know them by their fruits....Even so, every good tree bears good fruit; but the bad tree bears bad fruit” (Matthew 7:15-17).

Did they promote abortion or fight against it?
Did they promote sodomy or fight against it?
Did they promote "True devotion to Mary" or fight against it?
etc.

Yes, I am aware that Plinio de Oliveira was a promoter of the Fatima message and the Rosary. But how is it that de Oliveira ended up being worshiped by some of his followers? How can you be sure that Oliveira did not encourage that?

Archbishop Lefebvre's mother was a saintly person, but no one has ever encouraged setting her up as another Blessed Virgin Mary. One has to wonder about what was being taught to people who believe that Plinio (and his mother) are another Christ and Blessed Virgin Mary.
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Struthio on July 13, 2019, 08:36:20 AM
Did Plinio indeed put himself in place of our Lord, and his mother Lucilia in place of our Lady? Because if he did, then there was a very serious problem with Plinio de Oliviera.

Also, it seems that there may have been a (secret?) inner circle, which is mentioned in the above quote. Is it possible that most of the followers of Plinio/TFP were not aware of an inner circle?

There was a public fight between Orlando Fedeli and Plínio Corrêa de Oliveira in the 1980s. They wrote articles in one of the major brazilian newspapers, the Folha de São Paulo (besides books, pamphlets, and articles elsewhere published). Átila Sinke Guimarães wrote in defense of Plínio's TFP.

TFP defenders then admitted the existence of "Sempre Viva" and presented its role and customs as legitimate. On the other hand, Fedeli presented testimony of dropouts.

I only read some of all the hundreds of pages that have been written against or in defense of Plínio Corrêa de Oliveira and the cult of Plínio and Lucília.

In my opinion, the leaked audio of João Scognamilio Clá Dias gives credit to Orlando Fedeli. It was uploaded in 2010 or 2011 and since removed from youtube as well as elsewhere. A transcription can be found at

  http://www.montfort.org.br:84/nova-confirmacao-do-culto-delirante-prestado-a-plinio-correa-de-oliveira/ (http://www.montfort.org.br:84/nova-confirmacao-do-culto-delirante-prestado-a-plinio-correa-de-oliveira/)

Quote
É preciso que a gente tenha uma devoção a ele [Dr. Plinio] crescente, um ardor a ele cada vez maior, que a gente o queira com toda força da nossa alma. Que a gente não pense em outra coisa durante o dia senão ele ele ele ele ele ele, que passe o dia ávido, o dia ansioso, o dia desejoso de ter um encontro ainda que místico, interior, com ele, uma conversa, um contato com ele, e a gente, portanto, vá se unindo cada vez mais a ele, a ponto de não termos mais a nossa mentalidade, o nosso espírito, a nossa inteligência, a nossa vontade, a nossa sensibilidade funcionando, a não ser assim: Eu já não vivo, é o sr. Dr. Plínio que vive em mim.

Quote
It is necessary that we have a crescent devotion to him [Dr. Plínio], a constantly growing ardor, that we want him in our soul with all our forces. That we don't think of anything else the whole day long, nothing but him, him, him, him, him, him, [... etc. pp. ...] up to the point where we have: I don't live anymore, it is Dr. Plínio who lives in me.
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Bas Congo V on July 13, 2019, 08:49:25 AM
TIA has been a blessing and service to the Church Militant.

Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Ladislaus on July 13, 2019, 11:01:43 AM

Meg,

Let's cut to the chase.

Are you actually Jade Liboro, posting for the benefit of the SSPX? :-\
You've been on this forum since 2013.  Jade's been in the Quito convent since 2014.

An honest response would be appreciated by all.

:popcorn:
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Ladislaus on July 13, 2019, 11:06:28 AM
My question is, why have those who support Plinio/TFP on this forum not tried to refute these allegations? All they have done is to refer to a refutation by Guimaraes, but that doesn't cut it. It is a serious accusation, and it needs to be addressed in a forthright manner.

Did Plinio indeed put himself in place of our Lord, and his mother Lucilia in place of our Lady? Because if he did, then there was a very serious problem with Plinio de Oliviera.

Short of someone having first-hand knowledge of the goings on inside the TFP, especially in the 80s, what else can people rely on but the testimony of others?  We find the refutation by Guimaraes to be convincing.  I also know a few American TFP members personally, and even questioned a couple of them regarding Plinio, and the answer was that they respect him, but that is all.  I never got ANY hint of Plinio worship or the worship of Plinio's Mom.  Now maybe it was different in parts of Brazil, but my experience with the American TFP has been nothing but positive.  Of course they do soft-pedal their opposition to Vatican II way too much, but that's a different issue.  For being so "anti-clerical" they do seem rather insistent on submission to the purported hierarchy and disagree with the SSPX precisely on those grounds.  So that seems to directly contradict the charge of anti-clericalism.
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Pax Vobis on July 13, 2019, 11:16:12 AM
TIA has great catholic articles and the TFP does great catholic work (like organizing the 8,000+ rosary rallys).  Writing them off because their founder was a nut is akin to condemning the sspx masses as heretical because +Fellay is a modernist-in-hiding (and he is).  There’s no logic, just emotions.  Cena has this false “all or nothing”, “black and white”, “either-or” mindset that is pervasive in the Trad world and which contributes to the lack of unity in our circles and also makes many hesitate to convert to traditionalism.  Basically, she either can’t make ANY distinctions or she doesn’t want to.  The amount of emotion and vitriol she regularly expresses shows it’s the latter.  It’s sad but unsurprising.  Many Trads act like her.  
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Meg on July 13, 2019, 11:20:39 AM

Meg,

Let's cut to the chase.

Are you actually Jade Liboro, posting for the benefit of the SSPX? :-\
You've been on this forum since 2013.  Jade's been in the Quito convent since 2014.

An honest response would be appreciated by all.

I'm not going to answer your question. I find it amusing that you think that my real name is Jade Liboro, and that I live in a convent in Ecuador.

It's very telling that the followers of Guimaraes think that anyone who questions them is an "agent" of the SSPX, or communism or whatever. It's a strange mentality that perceives an "agent" behind every screen name that opposes them. If you want to think that I'm Jade Liboro, that's fine. It's not like you would believe anything I say anyway. That's why I don't often respond to your posts.
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Incredulous on July 13, 2019, 11:34:58 AM
I'm not going to answer your question. I find it amusing that you think that my real name is Jade Liboro, and that I live in a convent in Ecuador.

It's very telling that the followers of Guimaraes think that anyone who questions them is an "agent" of the SSPX, or communism or whatever. It's a strange mentality that perceives an "agent" behind every screen name that opposes them. If you want to think that I'm Jade Liboro, that's fine. It's not like you would believe anything I say anyway. That's why I don't often respond to your posts.

Jade only visits... Meg and you know that, but your posts serve her agenda well.
Jade is computer/server proficient and can post from Ecuador, Florida or any where else in the world.
And who else might know of her routines? :-\
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Meg on July 13, 2019, 11:38:38 AM
TIA has great catholic articles and the TFP does great catholic work (like organizing the 8,000+ rosary rallys).  Writing them off because their founder was a nut is akin to condemning the sspx masses as heretical because +Fellay is a modernist-in-hiding (and he is).  There’s no logic, just emotions.  Cena has this false “all or nothing”, “black and white”, “either-or” mindset that is pervasive in the Trad world and which contributes to the lack of unity in our circles and also makes many hesitate to convert to traditionalism.  Basically, she either can’t make ANY distinctions or she doesn’t want to.  The amount of emotion and vitriol she regularly expresses shows it’s the latter.  It’s sad but unsurprising.  Many Trads act like her.  

Bp. Fellay isn't the founder of the SSPX, so I don't see the correlation.

Yes, Cera is at times a little over-the-top. But I think that she is trying to do the right thing. I started to defend her because several forum members were ganging up on her in what I felt was a belligerent manner. It didn't seem right. Especially since she's hardly the only Catholic to take issue with TIA/TFP/Guimaraes/Plinio. I find that the other testimonies from those who are trying to show the problems with TIA/TFP/Guimaraes/Plinio seem credible. We might not be able to prove anything from either side of the issue, but that doesn't mean that the subject should be forbidden.
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Ladislaus on July 13, 2019, 11:39:49 AM
I'm not going to answer your question. I find it amusing that you think that my real name is Jade Liboro, and that I live in a convent in Ecuador.

It's very telling that the followers of Guimaraes think that anyone who questions them is an "agent" of the SSPX, or communism or whatever. It's a strange mentality that perceives an "agent" behind every screen name that opposes them. If you want to think that I'm Jade Liboro, that's fine. It's not like you would believe anything I say anyway. That's why I don't often respond to your posts.

This really has all the sounds of a mental reservation.  How hard would it have been to say, "No, I am not this Jade person."?
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Meg on July 13, 2019, 11:40:48 AM
This really has all the sounds of a mental reservation.  How hard would it have been to say, "No, I am not this Jade person."?

Because I want to keep the nutty Guimaraes followers guessing. Gotta have a little fun sometimes.
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Your Friend Colin on July 13, 2019, 01:15:46 PM
Bp. Fellay isn't the founder of the SSPX, so I don't see the correlation.

Yes, Cera is at times a little over-the-top. But I think that she is trying to do the right thing. I started to defend her because several forum members were ganging up on her in what I felt was a belligerent manner. It didn't seem right. Especially since she's hardly the only Catholic to take issue with TIA/TFP/Guimaraes/Plinio. I find that the other testimonies from those who are trying to show the problems with TIA/TFP/Guimaraes/Plinio seem credible. We might not be able to prove anything from either side of the issue, but that doesn't mean that the subject should be forbidden.
This is exactly my issue - the “over-the-topness”.
We aren’t ganging up on her. A few members are simply stating that Cera’s fixation on discrediting the TFP/TIA seems obsessive.
We’re also not saying this issue should be forbidden. But when a new thread is created every week to state the same things over and over again, it gets annoying.
We’ve asked Cera to share with us why she is so fixated on the “evils” of Plinio and Guimaraes. If she had a bad experience with them she should make that know so we would have a better understanding of where she is coming from. But we’ve repeatedly asked her about this to no avail.
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Croixalist on July 13, 2019, 02:06:17 PM
I think the basic problem is reposting the same information without much in the way of a discussion The effect is similar to pamphleteering or spam rather than having an ongoing discussion. That being said, I feel strongly about what I perceive as a stark change to how TIA approaches their material now. As much as she may be biased in SSPX's favor, the people who are complaining tend to lean on TIA/TFP's side of things. It's important to keep the topic going and Cera has kept pretty civil about it so I don't see why she can't continue, so long as it's part of a conversation and not a simple reposting/semi-spam.
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Cera on July 13, 2019, 02:51:28 PM

Meg,

Let's cut to the chase.

Are you actually Jade Liboro, posting for the benefit of the SSPX? :-\
You've been on this forum since 2013.  Jade's been in the Quito convent since 2014.

An honest response would be appreciated by all.
Actually what would be appreciated by all would be an intelligent response from you regarding the serious questions which have been raised.
Second best would be an honest question from you.
Making a TIA-type attack disguised as a pseudo- question is rather sophomoric.
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Incredulous on July 13, 2019, 03:07:02 PM
Actually what would be appreciated by all would be an intelligent response from you regarding the serious questions which have been raised.
Second best would be an honest question from you.
Making a TIA-type attack disguised as a pseudo- question is rather sophomoric.


Trad granny,

Are you finally admitting that Jade Liboro is an SSPX operative?  You never wanted to talk about that before?
And that her activities in the Quito convent are questionable, to say the least.

Implying that if Jade also posted on Cathinfo as "Meg", to attack the SSPX's adversaries it is a "serious" issue?

I like it... we seem to be making some progress here.


Oh, thank you for calling me sophomoric.... it makes me feel young!  :jumping2:

Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Meg on July 13, 2019, 03:31:35 PM
This is exactly my issue - the “over-the-topness”.
We aren’t ganging up on her. A few members are simply stating that Cera’s fixation on discrediting the TFP/TIA seems obsessive.
We’re also not saying this issue should be forbidden. But when a new thread is created every week to state the same things over and over again, it gets annoying.
We’ve asked Cera to share with us why she is so fixated on the “evils” of Plinio and Guimaraes. If she had a bad experience with them she should make that know so we would have a better understanding of where she is coming from. But we’ve repeatedly asked her about this to no avail.

And yet you are not concerned about the over-the-topness of some of your confreres.

Why would it matter if Cera explained why she is so concerned about TIA/TFP/Guimaraes/Plinio? At the end of the day, the question still remains: you and the others have not addressed the relevant problems at hand. Instead, you focus solely on those who take issue with TIA/TFP/Guimaraes/Plinio.
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Cera on July 13, 2019, 03:35:17 PM
For being so "anti-clerical" they do seem rather insistent on submission to the purported hierarchy and disagree with the SSPX precisely on those grounds.  So that seems to directly contradict the charge of anti-clericalism.
TFP was condemned by their local Bishop as being an "anti-Catholic, anti-clerical heretical sect."
As for TIA, one only has to read their unfounded attacks on Blessed Cardinal Newman, Archbishop Lefebrve, Bishop Travez and numerous good, traditional Catholic priests to see that they are indeed anti-clerical.
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Cera on July 13, 2019, 03:50:36 PM
TIA has great catholic articles and the TFP does great catholic work (like organizing the 8,000+ rosary rallys).  Writing them off because their founder was a nut is akin to condemning the sspx masses as heretical because +Fellay is a modernist-in-hiding (and he is).  There’s no logic, just emotions.  Cena has this false “all or nothing”, “black and white”, “either-or” mindset that is pervasive in the Trad world and which contributes to the lack of unity in our circles and also makes many hesitate to convert to traditionalism.  Basically, she either can’t make ANY distinctions or she doesn’t want to.  The amount of emotion and vitriol she regularly expresses shows it’s the latter.  It’s sad but unsurprising.  Many Trads act like her.  
Since I have posted only statements by Bishops, former members and journalists, I look forward to your citation of the "black-and-white" thinking of which you accuse me.
Like others here, I was once taken in by the appearance of a traditional Catholic group.
It was only when I looked into the condemnations by Bishop Mayer, the Bishops of Brazil, civil authorities of several South American nations, former members of the cult, parents of former members of the cult, and journalists that I realized that the Plinio- worshiping groups are not Catholic.


This includes not only Tradition Family and Property (TFP) and Tradition in Action (TIA); but also America Needs Fatima and Heralds of the Gospel and many others.
The prayer of TFP and Atila (slave#11 to Plinio and founder of TIA) "Let it no longer be I who live but rather Plinio in me who lives" is a blasphemy. Only a heretic "prays" like this.


That is a Catholic statement of fact. Does that sound like "black-and-white" thinking to you?
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Pax Vobis on July 13, 2019, 04:02:28 PM

Quote
TFP was condemned by their local Bishop as being an "anti-Catholic, anti-clerical heretical sect."
As for TIA, one only has to read their unfounded attacks on Blessed Cardinal Newman, Archbishop Lefebrve, Bishop Travez and numerous good, traditional Catholic priests to see that they are indeed anti-clerical.
TFP was condemned long ago; TIA has not been.  Yet you lump them both together.  Your lack of distinguishing is the problem.  The "black and white" thinking is that TFP is condemned, ergo TIA is also.  This is illogical.
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Pax Vobis on July 13, 2019, 04:03:48 PM

Quote
Bp. Fellay isn't the founder of the SSPX, so I don't see the correlation.
Obviously.
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Struthio on July 13, 2019, 04:06:00 PM
TFP was condemned long ago; TIA has not been.  Yet you lump them both together.  Your lack of distinguishing is the problem.  The "black and white" thinking is that TFP is condemned, ergo TIA is also.  This is illogical.

It is not illogical. You are illogical. Átila G. didn't care about any condemnation. Therefore the condemnations fall on him.
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Croixalist on July 13, 2019, 11:47:25 PM
TFP was condemned long ago; TIA has not been.  Yet you lump them both together.  Your lack of distinguishing is the problem.  The "black and white" thinking is that TFP is condemned, ergo TIA is also.  This is illogical.

It can hardly be avoided. TIA is a big promoter of Mr. Correa and by their words and deeds claim to be operating under the true spirit of the original TFP as he founded it. This is all well and good for the most part seeing as how solid Plinio's writing tends to be, though I am no expert. I thought TIA was playing it pretty smart by managing to avoid getting directly involved in an open dispute with the SSPX, because in my opinion there's still a risk of throwing out the good with the bad. Many here, including Matthew have been burned severely by some of the worst elements within the Society, but I know there is still plenty of good priests and Masses to be had. To many for me to write off at any rate.

Unfortunately now, TIA has decided to engage on a very haphazard and anonymously sourced campaign against SSPX, Fr. Purdy and especially Jade Liboro all in protest on behalf of the TFP. My own personal opinion is that TFP, at least the USA branch, has gone on to become more of a Novus Ordo-aligned lay organization and has discarded the strange Plinio devotion that was referenced early on. If the Brazilian branch thought the events at Quito was as egregious as Mr. Guimaraes thinks it was, you'd never know it because they haven't thought it important enough to speak out. Clearly, Atila wants to chart a different course for the TFP than the actual TFP have decided on. It's not that we came up with this association all by ourselves, Atila is deliberately holding on to it. He probably shouldn't, because the more he speaks as an expert on all things TFP, the more he reveals.

We do know without a doubt that there was a segment of Brazilian TFP members who decided to call themselves slaves of Plinio or the slightly less offensive but still disordered Slaves of Our Lady through the hands of Plinio. I don't know how large the faction was and now that I'm looking over it again, I can't say Atila was definitely one of them, but he sure did spend a lot of time writing to defend such an action. There was that one really strange offshoot that took things to an idolatrous level, but that doesn't necessarily mean that was a true reflection of TFP Brazil. Nevertheless, it may serve as an indication that there was something off about the original group.

One more thing that bugs me about Atila's inside sources regarding the recent Quito affair is that I can't imagine anyone offering the sort of information he claims to have received unless his contact was an actual nun (or nuns) within the convent itself. If true, this would in theory be a major departure for what Mother Mariana envisioned for the sisters, as would be having a group of laymen enter the convent in order to carry the statue in the first place. It may also indicate a real "La Capitana" with a mouth to his ear. If that sounds extreme, Atila's actions warrant the speculation.

And then we have the hypocritical attack on Archbishop Lefebvre's character. I say hypocritical because of the fact the TFP and Plinio have also been the targets of certain one-off "eyewitnesses" who virtually disappear never to be seen or heard from again. TIA really ought to know better than to give space to something like this. The very idea that they would deliberately seek out this course of action is probably the single biggest indicator to me that not all is as it seems over there and why I am now apt to reconsider the previous testimonies and the reluctance of the good Archbishop to associate himself with Plinio in the first place.
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Cera on July 14, 2019, 06:27:49 PM
TFP was condemned long ago; TIA has not been.  Yet you lump them both together.  Your lack of distinguishing is the problem.  The "black and white" thinking is that TFP is condemned, ergo TIA is also.  This is illogical.
It only appears to be illogical if you missed this post:

We are well aware of the story told by TIA of their claimed separation from TFP. We have read the documents presented by Atila to support this claim.
https://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/Internet_Files/F142_Defense_Eng.pdf (https://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/Internet_Files/F142_Defense_Eng.pdf)

Problem One:
Why did Atila fight so hard to remain attached to TFP?
Plinio Correa de Oliveira’s group, TFP, was condemned by the Catholic Church in Brazil and Venezuala.
       "In its 23rd General Assembly, April 10 to 19, 1985, the Bishops approved in plenary session a notice regarding the TFP. It therefore has all the official character of an Assembly of the Bishops of Brazil in Conference, and not simply a press release. The notice reads as follows: "Its esoteric character, religious fanaticism, the cult given to the personality of its founder and head, the abusive use of the name of Most Holy Mary, according to circulated information, cannot in any way merit the approval of the Church. "We lament the difficulties flowing from a civil society which presents itself as a Catholic religious entity, without a tie to the legitimate pastors.
        "This being the case, the Bishops of Brazil exhort Catholics not to enroll in the TFP, and not to collaborate with it.
        "The above stated was signed by +Dom Raymundo Damasceno Asas, Secretary-General of the Conference on National Bishops of Brazil on April 23, 1997."
        Immaculate Heart Messenger, ed. Father Robert J. Fox. January - March 1998 edition p. 29.
  
       In 1984 the local T.F.P. branch was outlawed in Venezuela, accused by a special parliamentary commission of being a "cult ... which warps the minds of young people, turns its members into fanatics and brainwashes them".
        Osservatore Romano, July 7, 1985, p. 12, n. 408, weekly Spanish edition quoted in Tradizione Famiglia Proprietà: Associazione cattolica o sètta millenarista?, Rimini 1996, frontispiece
        http://www.unitypublishing.com/Apparitions/TFP-AmericaNeedsFatima.htm (http://www.unitypublishing.com/Apparitions/TFP-AmericaNeedsFatima.htm)

   Plinio Correa de Oliveira’s group, TFP, was condemned by the civil authorities in Brazil. This was reported by investigator Thomas Case in Fidelity, the monthly organ of the highly conservative Ultra-Montanists in its May 1989 issue.
https://ephesians511blog.com/2013/09/28/america-needs-fatima-a-cult-using-the-fatima-name/ (https://ephesians511blog.com/2013/09/28/america-needs-fatima-a-cult-using-the-fatima-name/)
          
        TFP had been repeatedly accused by the Brazilian authorities of “inducement to flight, reckless transfer, and concealment of minors”–and this despite TFP’s own slavish devotion to the military regime.
        Young men were alleged to have been deceitfully recruited by TFP, to be trained in their academies as “warrior monks” for the cause.
        According to the Brazilian government, TFP sought to obtain legal guardianship over the minor children of parents dedicated to TFP and then turned their sons against both them and the mainstream church, regarded by TFP loyalists as an institutional fraud.


Problem Two:
Why did TIA wait over 20 years to post the purported letter from TFP?  It was supposedly written in 1997, but not made available to the public until after 2017.

TIA’s story is:
“In January 2017, TIA hosted an Event (sic) celebrating the publishing in English of the 11-volume Collection Eli. Eli Lamma Sabacthani? by Atila Sinke Guimarães. . .”

At that event, those present raised questions regarding “the expulsion of Atila from the TFP” and “insisted that a translation of it to English should be available to the public.” 

In response to those questions, Marian Horvat began to translate the supposed document from Portuguese to English.

Problem Three:
For a letter purportedly from a hostile president of the TFP organization from which Atila is, supposedly being cut off, it is surprisingly full of praise for Atila:

This is from:
“The Letter of the President of the TFP to Atila Sinke Guimarães, November 20, 1997
. . .  Very dear Mr. Atila, because of your elevation of sights, your gifts of intelligence, your energy and, above all, the many graces that Our Lady has poured over you, you have a great role to carry out in the  Counter-Revolution  and  in  the  TFP. . . I take leave with inalterable esteem.”

Thats. Just. Odd.
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Viva Cristo Rey on July 14, 2019, 06:56:04 PM
Can’t really trust anyone or any group anymore.  All this bickering is unhealthy too.  
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Struthio on July 14, 2019, 07:36:24 PM
Átila Sinke Guimarães wants his readers to believe that "Our Lady" appeared to "Mother Francisca de los Angeles, the novice mistress" in Quito "in the 1930s" to ask her to pray for his semi-god, Plínio Corrêa de Oliveira:

Quote
The word spread in the Convent that she had received the task to pray for him directly from Our Lady.

More delirious nonsense from TIA:


Quote

Two nuns on the plaza corner

In 1968 and 1969, the TFP was making public campaigns against the infiltration of semi-occult progressivist groups in the Church that wanted to subvert her. The Brazilian monthly Catolicismo had published a special issue on this topic and the TFP activists were spreading that issue among the public. One of the ways TFP accomplished this task was through “caravans.” These caravans were groups of nine young men in a UV who would travel in an area where TFP did not have a seat in order to disseminate a book, magazine or newspaper.

(https://www.traditioninaction.org/bev/bevimages(200-249)/bev233_plaza.jpg)1: The site where Garcia Moreno was killed in the plaza; 2: The Convent of the Immaculate Conception
One of these caravans with Brazilian members was passing through Ecuador, and, even though Quito was not on its planned route, the group decided to stop at La Plaza Grande (the historical center of Quito) to make a campaign in front of the site where Garcia Moreno had been murdered in order to honor that valiant Catholic hero.

They had no idea that the Convent of the Immaculate Conception was on the corner of that Plaza. They looked upon the stop as an impromptu adventure, since these Brazilians did not speak Spanish well and the magazine they were disseminating was in Portuguese. Those facts did not concern them; they were there to pay homage to that great hero whom they admired.

During the campaign they offered the magazine to two nuns who were standing on the corner of the Plaza attentively watching them. The nuns responded, “Come inside, our Abbess wants to speak with you.”

They graciously complied, and the Abbess asked if they could carry down the Statue of Our Lady of Good Success from the Convent’s choir to the Church because it was the date that she should descend but the nuns did not have men to help them with the arduous task. They accepted. Shortly afterwards, when the campaign ended, they entered the Convent and carried down the Statue. This was the beginning.

Later, we learned that Mother Mariana had left a prophecy with this instruction: “When the Franciscans will refuse to carry down the Statue, send two nuns to the corner of La Plaza Grande and there they will find the ones who will replace them.” In fact, some days before, the Franciscans had sent an excuse to the Convent stating they could not bring the Statue down because they had to attend a Liberation Theology meeting.

Praying for Plinio Corrêa de Oliveira

Soon after this incident a TFP seat was established in Quito, without any special link to the Convent or Our Lady of Good Success. The nuns, however, often would send ladies who were their friends with messages to the TFP members asking them to come to the Convent to show them photos of their campaigns.

(https://www.traditioninaction.org/bev/bevimages(200-249)/bev233_Plinio.jpg)Nuns in the Convent were praying by name for Prof. Plinio since the 1930s
In one of these screen projection shows, two or three members of the TFP were in the front near the screen with the cloistered nuns seated behind them, out of the sight of the young men. In a photo of one campaign where Prof. Plinio appeared in a large group of persons, one nun walked up the hallway of the room to the screen and, on her own initiative, pointed to a person, saying, “This one is Dr. Plinio Corrêa de Oliveira.”

And she actually was right on target. That nun was Mother Francisca de los Angeles, the novice mistress.

How did Mother Francisca know about Dr. Plinio? At that time no one could explain the episode; today we know that Mother Francisca de los Angeles had been praying by name for Plinio Corrêa de Oliveira since the 1940s without knowing him personally. The word spread in the Convent that she had received the task to pray for him directly from Our Lady.

Other old nuns at that Convent, whose names I will not reveal now, have affirmed that Our Lady appeared to them in the 1930s and asked them to pray namely for Plinio Corrêa de Oliveira. At that time Prof. Plinio was a young man in his 20s or 30s, a Brazilian who, naturally speaking, would have been completely unknown to these religious women of Quito.

Official request

In 1978 Mother Rosario, then Abbess of the Convent, sent an ambassador to São Paulo – Mr. Luis Fernando Chiriboga Ushina – to deliver a letter to Prof. Plinio. In that letter, which was also signed by all the nuns of the Convent, she officially asked “in the name of Our Lady and mine” for him to provide men to bring down the Statue of Our Lady of Good Success from “now until the end of the world.”

(https://www.traditioninaction.org/bev/bevimages(200-249)/bev233_transfer.jpg)TFP members make the transfer of Our Lady at the request of the Convent
Out of courtesy, Prof. Plinio sent back an amiable response, also official, accepting the mission and thanking Mother Rosario for her trust.

From then on, every time a new Abbess took power, one of Prof. Plinio’s followers would go to her and ask whether or not she wanted to renew that invitation. Until now, all Abbesses have done so by means of a signed document.

Last January this agreement was broken by the present day Abbess, under the pressure of the SSPX’ Agent, La Capitana and Arch. Travez, as I showed in my last article (https://www.traditioninaction.org/bev/232bev05_24_2019.htm#capitana).

These are some facts that I want to record in order to show that the task of bringing the Statue down from the upper choir to the Church was never an initiative or demand made by the TFP or the followers of Prof. Plinio, but rather it was an explicit request of the nuns themselves of the Convent.

With this said, I close the series of articles on the usurpation the SSPX is trying to make in the Convent of the Immaculate Conception in Quito through bribes, intrigues and calumnies.

(https://www.traditioninaction.org/bev/bevimages(200-249)/bev233_ol.jpg)





Source: https://www.traditioninaction.org/bev/233bev05_28_2019.htm (https://www.traditioninaction.org/bev/233bev05_28_2019.htm)
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Struthio on July 14, 2019, 07:54:56 PM
Quote from: Átila Sinke Guimarães
Other old nuns at that Convent, whose names I will not reveal now, have affirmed that Our Lady appeared to them in the 1930s and asked them to pray namely for Plinio Corrêa de Oliveira.

An old professor from São Paulo has written a book about the blasphemous cult of Plínio from Higeniópolis. And he has presented testimony of witnesses on oath registered by a notary. And "Msgr." João Scognamiglio Clá Dias is on record for continuing the blasphemies that the professor denounced.

Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Struthio on July 14, 2019, 08:01:38 PM
Can’t really trust anyone or any group anymore.  

Good idea!

Why would the devil and his troups first attack the Church, and then let those alone who take the faith more serious?
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Pax Vobis on July 14, 2019, 08:21:43 PM
So because TIA is associated with nutt people 20 years ago, and because TIA isn't run by a cleric, that means that everything they do is tainted.  Every article they write is bad.  Every program is wrong.

Got it.  Makes sense.
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Croixalist on July 14, 2019, 08:28:40 PM
Problem Three:
For a letter purportedly from a hostile president of the TFP organization from which Atila is, supposedly being cut off, it is surprisingly full of praise for Atila:

This is from:
“The Letter of the President of the TFP to Atila Sinke Guimarães, November 20, 1997
. . .  Very dear Mr. Atila, because of your elevation of sights, your gifts of intelligence, your energy and, above all, the many graces that Our Lady has poured over you, you have a great role to carry out in the  Counter-Revolution  and  in  the  TFP. . . I take leave with inalterable esteem.”

Thats. Just. Odd.

Yes, very strange and sycophantic. That is an ever-so-slight contradiction in their Q&A on the subject:

"The cordial relations of both Atila Guimarães and Marian Horvat with TFP ceased when they published the book In the Murky Waters of Vatican II. There is no relationship at present – official or otherwise – between the two organizations."
https://www.traditioninaction.org/Questions/A004_tfp.htm


All this bickering is unhealthy too.  

Well, what are you waiting for and agree with me!  :really-mad2:



:laugh1:


Átila Sinke Guimarães wants his readers to believe that "Our Lady" appeared to "Mother Francisca de los Angeles, the novice mistress" in Quito "in the 1930s" to ask her to pray for his semi-god, Plínio Corrêa de Oliveira:

More delirious nonsense from TIA:



Source: https://www.traditioninaction.org/bev/233bev05_28_2019.htm (https://www.traditioninaction.org/bev/233bev05_28_2019.htm)

A series of miraculous events which can only be verified by people long dead or who enjoy a full cloak of anonymity given to them via the TIA witness protection program. In other words, "Trust me, I know people who've seen things!"

Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Alan on July 14, 2019, 08:29:15 PM
Problem One:
Why did Atila fight so hard to remain attached to TFP?
Plinio Correa de Oliveira’s group, TFP, was condemned by the Catholic Church in Brazil and Venezuala.
...
...
...
Thats. Just. Odd.


It's just odd, Cera, that you only chose certain messages to refute, but not mine --- because you couldn't.

You know the TFP is doing good works for God and Our Lady, that's why you couldn't refute my messages. You only presented the "condemnations" of some bishops, but we already know how bad some bishops have become after Vatican Council II.

Mr Taylor Marshall recently even published the book "Infiltration" which exposes the infiltration of communists into the Church. Being a bishop and cardinal today doesn't guarantee a person is loyal to the Church. So the TFP being condemned by some bishops does not proof the TFP is anti-Catholic.

How anti-Catholic is the TFP??  Is it anti-Catholic to promote the Rosary?  Is it anti-Catholic to fight against abortion?  Is it anti-Catholic to fight against same sex marriage?  Is it anti-Catholic to promote "True devotion to Mary"?

Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Struthio on July 14, 2019, 08:40:24 PM
So because TIA is associated with nutt people 20 years ago, and because TIA isn't run by a cleric, that means that everything they do is tainted.  Every article they write is bad.  Every program is wrong.

Got it.  Makes sense.

Átila Sinke Guimarães wants to make people believe in a ludicrous tale of an apparition of Our Lady in Quito elevating Plínio Corrêa de Oliveira to semi-god status.

I want to remind readers that Plínio Corrêa de Oliveira has been worshipped before by TFP and Arautos do Evangelho.
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Croixalist on July 14, 2019, 08:45:29 PM
It's just odd, Cera, that you only chose certain messages to refute, but not mine --- because you couldn't.

You know the TFP is doing good works for God and Our Lady, that's why you couldn't refute my messages. You only presented the "condemnations" of some bishops, but we already know how bad some bishops have become after Vatican Council II.

Mr Taylor Marshall recently even published the book "Infiltration" which exposes the infiltration of communists into the Church. Being a bishop and cardinal today doesn't guarantee a person is loyal to the Church. So he TFP being condemned by some bishops does not proof the TFP is anti-Catholic.

How anti-Catholic is the TFP??  Is it anti-Catholic to promote the Rosary?  Is it anti-Catholic to fight against abortion?  Is it anti-Catholic to fight against same sex marriage?  Is it anti-Catholic to promote "True devotion to Mary"?

TFP is fine as long as you don't expect them to go out on a limb on VII. We should probably distinguish Plinio-era TFP with post-Atila TFP. Past TFP is only being brought up now because of TIA's desire to promote it, even going so far as to defend current TFP to do it. There's a lot of crossed wires.
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Struthio on July 14, 2019, 08:47:40 PM
Quote
The cordial relations of both Atila Guimarães and Marian Horvat with TFP ceased

Simple explanation: After the death of Plínio, the TFP split into two parts fighting each other. They even went to court.

Guimarães and Horvat later split from one of the two.

But all venerate or worship Plínio.
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Pax Vobis on July 14, 2019, 11:55:24 PM
Struthio, your response in no way answered my comment.  
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Struthio on July 14, 2019, 11:57:28 PM
Struthio, your response in no way answered my comment.  

Well, you didn't say anything I would have to answer.

Actually, you didn't say anything anyone here would have to answer.
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Struthio on July 15, 2019, 12:02:27 AM
Look Pax Vobis: Átila is inventing apparitions of Our Lady to further his Plínio-cult.

Aren't you able to read and grasp the situation?
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Alan on July 15, 2019, 12:23:18 AM
Can’t really trust anyone or any group anymore.   

That's exactly the outcome that the devil wants !

"Divide and Conquer" is his favourite tactic.
He wants to see divisions among Catholics, he love to see Catholics fighting Catholics, and Catholic organisations splitting.
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Struthio on July 15, 2019, 12:30:14 AM
That's exactly the outcome that the devil wants !

"Divide and Conquer" is his favourite tactic.
He wants to see divisions among Catholics, he love to see Catholics fighting Catholics, and Catholic organisations splitting.

That's an argument against Lefebvre and an argument against Plínio. Both created organisations that split Catholics from the conciliar mainstream (which both later split further).

Look: The devil leads you into logical inconsistencies. Like all modernism is contradictory in itself.
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Pax Vobis on July 15, 2019, 08:40:32 AM
Quote
Well, you didn't say anything I would have to answer.

Then don't quote my post next time.

Quote
Look Pax Vobis: Átila is inventing apparitions of Our Lady to further his Plínio-cult.

Aren't you able to read and grasp the situation?
Does that mean that the entire TIA organization is corrupt?  No.  +Fellay lied and manipulated the entire sspx when he used the millions of rosaries said for the consecration of Russia to further his agenda with new-rome by saying Our Lady had obtained the excommunication removals.  This is just as blasphemous.  Do +Fellay's actions mean that every sspx priest is corrupt?  No.

My whole point is that you cannot write-off an entire organization just because leadership is bad.  Should you be cautious?  Yes.  Should you spread awareness of the bad acts?  Yes.  Should you challenge the bad leadership?  Yes.  But life is all about taking the good and ignoring the bad.  Christ told us the wheat and the chaff will always be growing together.  It's unavoidable.
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Alan on July 15, 2019, 09:05:22 AM
That's an argument against Lefebvre and an argument against Plínio. Both created organisations that split Catholics from the conciliar mainstream (which both later split further).

Ridiculous.

You speak as if the post-concilliar Church is orthodox and loyal to Christ, and the TFP is creating divisions and chaos.
It seems that you believe in modernism.

In fact, if someone is fighting against heresy or corruption, we don't call it creating division, but you did -- this tells us something about you.
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Croixalist on July 15, 2019, 10:02:47 AM
The essential problem with Plinio as I see it is that he wasn't very transparent with his organization. TFP wasn't a religious order, but it also demanded much more from its members than a lay organization ever would or had a right to. While he was alive, he was mostly well known for going after Communism, but he stopped short of VII. Going by Atila's account, he would have publicly endorsed the Murky Waters book had he lived to see its publication but as it stood, it was almost 30 years after SSPX had already been duking it out in the public square. Many people voiced concerns privately during and after the council, but almost no one had the courage to stand up to it. Plinio, Atila, and the TFP were no exception to that rule for the first 30 years but Abp. Lefebvre and the SSPX were.

That is not to say that newcomers aren't welcome but when TIA wants to suddenly build up Plinio as some great leader of traditionalism ahead of the Archbishop, that's when they have to learn their place.

Archbishop Lefebvre was tasked with having to navigate through the corrupted hierarchy of the Church, a path he had to chart without much assistance. Sometimes he had to figure it out as he went along. The recent Neo-Conning of the SSPX was certainly not his doing, nor is it the fault of the good religious and laity who would form the Resistance in reaction to it, many times as the result of undue expulsion from it. I sympathize with all the good people involved on each side, but the real answer must come from the very top. All of this is basic survival at the provisional level. We can barely maintain much less improve the situation.
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Struthio on July 15, 2019, 07:31:09 PM
Does that mean that the entire TIA organization is corrupt?  No.  +Fellay lied and manipulated the entire sspx when he used the millions of rosaries said for the consecration of Russia to further his agenda with new-rome by saying Our Lady had obtained the excommunication removals.  This is just as blasphemous.  Do +Fellay's actions mean that every sspx priest is corrupt?  No.

My whole point is that you cannot write-off an entire organization just because leadership is bad.  Should you be cautious?  Yes.  Should you spread awareness of the bad acts?  Yes.  Should you challenge the bad leadership?  Yes.  But life is all about taking the good and ignoring the bad.  Christ told us the wheat and the chaff will always be growing together.  It's unavoidable.

I didn't say anything with respect to the questions you ask. You make up questions and make it appear, as if I had answered them positively, and then you answer them negatively. But I had neither asked them nor answered them at all.

I just imparted what I know about the blasphemous cult to Plínio and Lucília, and I showed what ludicrous apparitions Átila invents to make it appear as if Plínio was personally blessed by our Lady.

I let readers draw their own conclusions.

In case you're interested in my opinion: Yes, every priest who would not speak up against blasphemous acts of his superior is corrupt.

Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Pax Vobis on July 15, 2019, 07:42:00 PM

Quote
I didn't say anything with respect to the questions you ask. You make up questions and make it appear, as if I had answered them positively, and then you answer them negatively. But I had neither asked them nor answered them at all.
Your posts are filled with implications and subtle allegations.  Be a man and speak clearly, if you don’t want your words to be misunderstood.  
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Struthio on July 15, 2019, 08:26:39 PM
Your posts are filled with implications and subtle allegations.  Be a man and speak clearly, if you don’t want your words to be misunderstood.

I hope my posts make you think. The implications and other ideas though are yours and not mine.



Be a man and speak clearly, if you don’t want your words to be misunderstood.

Which parts of my comments are not clear?
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Pax Vobis on July 16, 2019, 09:03:32 AM
Quote
Which parts of my comments are not clear?
1.  Your first post on this thread was:  "The devil loves blasphemy." 
---This implies that someone committed this act, yet you provide no context and let the reader assume.
.
2.  Your 2nd comment was:  "Átila G. didn't care about any condemnation. Therefore the condemnations fall on him."
---How do you know he doesn't care about the condemnation?  Because he didn't tell you personally?  Because he didn't tell a friend you have who knows Atila?  If you have facts to show your accusation is founded, then provide them.  Do you have a letter or something where he said this?  If not, you are judging Atila's interior disposition, which is not allowed and which is petty.
.
3.  Your 3rd comment was:  "Átila Sinke Guimarães wants to make people believe in a ludicrous tale of an apparition of Our Lady in Quito elevating Plínio Corrêa de Oliveira to semi-god status."
---The problem with your statement is that you insert the overly-emotional phrase "semi-god status" into your accusation.  You are espousing belief in an apparition as akin to people worshipping a man.  Are you saying that the TFP is similar to Jose Escriva's "Opus Dei"?  There's lots of tales that make that group sound like a cult too.  I've personally encountered multiple sspx families who spoke of +ABL as if he were the greatest saint in the last 100 years.  They had pictures of him all over their house and it was very weird.  They also believe that +ABL is part of prophecy and there are even a few "seers" who say +ABL and/or +Fellay will "save the church".  Is this uncatholic behavior +ABL's fault?  No.
.
In my opinion, this hero-worship is uncatholic, but it's also understandable.  It's normal human behavior to admire one's heroes and especially when such heroes lived during a hero-less world.  Do many people take things too far?  Of course.  Do many actions go to the extreme?  Absolutely.  Does this mean the hero encourages such "worship"?  Some do, some don't and to varying degrees.  (Popularity and power are strong psychological drugs, which is why many prostitute themselves in Hollywood.)
.
The problem I have with your posts is you are accusing the TFP of being a cult who encourages such uncatholic actions and with no proof.  You take the actions of hero-worshipers and instead of blaming them, you blame the leaders.  Charging someone with anti-Catholic hero-worship is one thing; charging someone with promoting a cult and claiming they are a "semi-god" is quite another.  There's ample proof for the former, but not for the latter.
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Struthio on July 16, 2019, 10:31:27 AM
1.  Your first post on this thread was:  "The devil loves blasphemy."
---This implies that someone committed this act, yet you provide no context and let the reader assume.

That's not true. Please start over.
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Pax Vobis on July 16, 2019, 10:39:51 AM
Great response (sarcasm alert).  Find 1 sentence you disagree with and write-off everything else I wrote.  Sounds just like your approach to TFP/TIA.
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Struthio on July 16, 2019, 10:41:21 AM
2.  Your 2nd comment was:  "Átila G. didn't care about any condemnation. Therefore the condemnations fall on him."
---How do you know he doesn't care about the condemnation?  Because he didn't tell you personally?  Because he didn't tell a friend you have who knows Atila?  If you have facts to show your accusation is founded, then provide them.  Do you have a letter or something where he said this?  If not, you are judging Atila's interior disposition, which is not allowed and which is petty.
.

Átila didn´t accept the condemnations by Dom Antônio de Castor Mayer or the CNBB, rather he defends the Plínio cult to this day. His defence from the last millenium even was recently translated into english. Look it up on TIA!

You seem to not be informed about the point of view of Átila on the whole story.
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Struthio on July 16, 2019, 10:50:15 AM
3.  Your 3rd comment was:  "Átila Sinke Guimarães wants to make people believe in a ludicrous tale of an apparition of Our Lady in Quito elevating Plínio Corrêa de Oliveira to semi-god status."
---The problem with your statement is that you insert the overly-emotional phrase "semi-god status" into your accusation.  You are espousing belief in an apparition as akin to people worshipping a man.  Are you saying that the TFP is similar to Jose Escriva's "Opus Dei"?  There's lots of tales that make that group sound like a cult too.  I've personally encountered multiple sspx families who spoke of +ABL as if he were the greatest saint in the last 100 years.  They had pictures of him all over their house and it was very weird.  They also believe that +ABL is part of prophecy and there are even a few "seers" who say +ABL and/or +Fellay will "save the church".  Is this uncatholic behavior +ABL's fault?  No.
.
In my opinion, this hero-worship is uncatholic, but it's also understandable.  It's normal human behavior to admire one's heroes and especially when such heroes lived during a hero-less world.  Do many people take things too far?  Of course.  Do many actions go to the extreme?  Absolutely.  Does this mean the hero encourages such "worship"?  Some do, some don't and to varying degrees.  (Popularity and power are strong psychological drugs, which is why many prostitute themselves in Hollywood.)
.
The problem I have with your posts is you are accusing the TFP of being a cult who encourages such uncatholic actions and with no proof.  You take the actions of hero-worshipers and instead of blaming them, you blame the leaders.  Charging someone with anti-Catholic hero-worship is one thing; charging someone with promoting a cult and claiming they are a "semi-god" is quite another.  There's ample proof for the former, but not for the latter.

As you have demonstrated in your first point, you haven't even read, what I have written in this thread.

Start over!
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Pax Vobis on July 16, 2019, 11:52:01 AM
Quote
As you have demonstrated in your first point, you haven't even read, what I have written in this thread.

You assume that your view is gospel, with no chance of being wrong.  Sounds like you're a cult leader too.
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Struthio on July 16, 2019, 01:39:31 PM
Quote from: Átila Sinke Guimarães, 1997
O grande Moisés, com sua sarça ardente no alto do Sinai, não me faz inveja. Pois, se ele ali se relacionou com Deus durante quarenta dias, eu me relaciono com Doutor Plinio há trinta e três anos. E, em tais relações, vejo talvez mais a presença divina do que ele ante o sagrado arbusto. E guardo a esperança de ainda vencer o Profeta nesta tertúlia, quando eu passar do atual degredo para a Pátria.

https://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/f159_Defense_Port.htm
https://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/Internet_Files/F159_Defesa-Port.pdf


Quote from: Átila Sinke Guimarães [translation by Marian Horvat, 2018]
The great Moses with his burning bush on the top of Sinai does not make me jealous. For if he were there with God for 40 days, I have been with Dr. Plinio for 33 years. And in this relationship I see, perhaps, more of the divine presence than he before the sacred bush. And I guard the hope that I still may win the dispute with this Prophet when I shall pass from this exile to the Fatherland.

https://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/f142_Defense.htm
https://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/Internet_Files/F142_Defense_Eng.pdf


Átila thinks that God is "more present" in Plínio Corrêa de Oliveira than in the sacred burning bush.

That's the way, Átila presents himself and his Plínio.


Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Cera on July 16, 2019, 02:49:54 PM
Why would it matter if Cera explained why she is so concerned about TIA/TFP/Guimaraes/Plinio? At the end of the day, the question still remains: you and the others have not addressed the relevant problems at hand. Instead, you focus solely on those who take issue with TIA/TFP/Guimaraes/Plinio.
Hi Meg,
I've previously explained why I am concerned about the Plinio- worshiping cults.


1. Because I too got taken in by TIA's appearance of Catholicity.


2. And because when I began to research deeper into the writings of Atila and Marian, I realized that although they pretended to have left TFP, they had never left the Plinio- worshiping, anti-clerical parts of it.


3.  And because when I looked even deeper, I learned just how evil all of the Plinio-worshiping groups are. TFP was condemned by its local Bishop, by the Bishops of Brazil and by the civil authorities of two South American nations for child- trafficking (not sexual trafficking, but removing boys from access to their parents.)


4.  And because as I continued to research, I learned that Marion's brother runs the TFP in the  Pennsylvania and that the truly loony Plinio- worshiping group Heralds of the Gospel is now headquartered in Houston. They say that Plinio is in heaven at the right side of the Holy Virgin and that St. Michael the Archangel is his own personal guardian angel.


5. And as I continued to research, I learned that America Needs Fatima, a project of the TFP, says that the consecration of Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary has already been done. ANF is the Novus Ordo branch of TFP. A former member of TFP says "We always said 'When TFP needs money, America Needs Fatima'."


And much more . . .
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Cera on July 16, 2019, 02:57:26 PM

We do know without a doubt that there was a segment of Brazilian TFP members who decided to call themselves slaves of Plinio or the slightly less offensive but still disordered Slaves of Our Lady through the hands of Plinio. I don't know how large the faction was and now that I'm looking over it again, I can't say Atila was definitely one of them
Yes, Atila was Slave # 11.

Filipe de Freitas Guimarães Ablas, RG
The following declaration was registered at the Public Archives (August 24, 1984) and published on March 14 1985 in the newspaper La Folha de Manha.

I, the undersigned, Filipe de Freitas Guimarães Ablas, RG (General Registry) 3706587, SP, marital status - unmarried, living in Curitiba (Brazil), Manoel C. so Ribas, No 418, swear to be true that when I belonged to the TFP, Brazilian Society for the Defense of Tradition, Family and Property, in 1967 I entered into a secret society of that association, known as "Sacred Slavery" [Sempre Viva], also known by its members as "Still Living".

The members of this secret society have made a consecration of themselves as slaves of Dr Plinio Corrêa de Oliveira in the same sense in which St. Louis de Montfort Grignion recommended it be done for the Madonna. For this consecration, as a slave to Dr. Plinio, was used the same text drawn up by St. Louis for the consecration to Our Lady, with some adaptation. We proceeded in this manner because Dr. Plinio was considered to have the same spirit as the Madonna, because his spirit was one with the Wisdom and Immaculate Heart of Mary. The members of that society prayed every day using the following prayer of "Sacred Slavery", composed by Dr. Plinio himself:

"Immaculate Heart of Mary and Wisdom, in the atmosphere of our days when all men are free, are drunk on freedom, I offer myself to you, a slave, to be like the last of the men referred to by My Lord [Plinio]. I offer myself in the atmosphere of these days in which everything speaks of naturalism, so that my life is entirely supernatural.

I am not the one who is alive but it is My Lord [Plinio] that lives in me. "
. . .
Prayers were also recited to him [Plinio], as a parody of the Ave Maria, which incorporate the prophecies of St. Louis, St. Elias and himself:

"Hail, Luigi Plinio Elia (official name of Plinio in the Holy Slavery), full of love and hate, the Blessed Virgin is with you. You are blessed among the faithful, and the fruit of your love and your hatred, which is the counterrevolution, is blessed. Oh holy Luigi Plinio Elia, father and admirable leader of counterrevolution and the Kingdom of Mary, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen. "

Also recited was the rosary using the adapted 'Ave Maria'. Even the meetings began with the same 'Ave Maria', the official prayer of the Holy Slavery and with the ejaculation: "Hail, Luigi Pliny Elia, father and admirable leader of counterrevolution and the Kingdom of Mary! Hail, Luigi Pliny Elia, the faithful slave, Immaculate Heart of Wisdom and Mary!" There was also a Litany for him, the 'Doctor', and they said that the prayers had been composed by Marcos Ribeiro Dantas (slave Plinio Paul).

In one of these ejaculatory prayers to Dr. Plinio it was prayed: "The forerunner of Elijah, pray for us!"

Dr. Plinio imparted the blessing to his slaves. Sometimes, when they received it, they were stretched out on the floor, face upwards, and then Dr. Plinio laid his right foot on the face and gave his blessing, saying: "Benedictio Matris et Mediatricis descendat super vos et semper maneat ".

The slaves of Dr. Plinio had the habit of confessing to him, confessing their failings and even their sins. After the accusation, if the slave asked for a penance, Dr Plinio had the habit of giving three slaps to the face of the slave. Following this, he would impart the blessing.

The entry into "Sempre Vivente" took place by means of a ceremony that lasted several hours, in Via Alagoas, on the second floor of the house, and sometimes in other places.

Dr. Plinio sat on a small throne with the habit and the mantle of the Third Order. The assistants used a habit without the mantle. The person who was about to be introduced to that company relaxed, as if dead, prostrate upon the ground in front of Dr. Plinio. At this point, from Dr. Plinio, was received the order to stand up to receive a new life and he [Plinio] intoned: "Exsurge." This meant that the person had died and was born a new man, a slave of the prophet, an Apostle of the Last Times.

The person then fulfilled his consecration as a slave and delivered his whole being, material and spiritual, to Dr. Plinio. Symbolic objects were used. Dr. Plinio acquired an absolute right, as with the old slave of the Roman Law, except for the right to life and death. That is why they call it "Dominus Plinius."

The ceremony continued with the feet and hands of the Prophet [Plinio] being kissed by the slave. Then, Dr. Plinio left the throne and there sat his new slave, since he was a new Plinio. Dr. Plinio kissed the feet and hands of his new slave.

So, the effect was of a transforming union that took place between them; one living in the other. The slave was a new Plinio. For this reason was adopted the name of Plinio composed with that of another, of a patron and a title of Our Lady. For example, I chose to become Plinio Bernardo Dimas Longinos of Our Lady, Queen of the Holy Apostles of the Last Times. I was known as Plinio Dimas.

We could not communicate with other members of TFP the existence of "Sacred Slavery," because - of course - of the nature of this secret society.

The twelve first slaves were:

1) Caio Vidigal Xavier da Silveira - Plinio Mário.
2) Eduardo Barros Brotero - Plinio Eduardo.
3) Luiz Nazareno of Assunpção Filho - Plinio Luiz.
4) João Clá Dias Scognamiglio - Plinio Fernando.
5) Humberto Braccesi - Plinio Cirineu.
6) Fernando Siqueira - Plinio Bernardo.
7) Carlos Espírito Hofmeister Poly - Plinio Jose.
 Marcos Ribeiro Dantes - Plinio Paulo.
9) Mário Navarro da Costa - Plinio Elias.
10) Dom Bertrand de Orleans e Bragança - Plinio Miguel.
11) Atila Sinke Guimarães - Plinio Márcio.
12) Becca Cosme Varella Hijo - Plinio Lázaro.

Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Cera on July 16, 2019, 03:04:26 PM
One more thing that bugs me about Atila's inside sources regarding the recent Quito affair is that I can't imagine anyone offering the sort of information he claims to have received unless his contact was an actual nun (or nuns) within the convent itself. If true, this would in theory be a major departure for what Mother Mariana envisioned for the sisters, as would be having a group of laymen enter the convent in order to carry the statue in the first place. It may also indicate a real "La Capitana" with a mouth to his ear. If that sounds extreme, Atila's actions warrant the speculation.
You raise good points and mention one possibility regarding Atila's purported source of information --

"I can't imagine anyone offering the sort of information he claims to have received unless his contact was an actual nun (or nuns) within the convent itself."

Other possibilities are:

Atila or his proxy bugged the convent.

Atila made an elaborate "mental reservation" and manufactured his source in the service of what he personally believes to be a greater good.
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Cera on July 16, 2019, 03:12:05 PM
Átila Sinke Guimarães wants to make people believe in a ludicrous tale of an apparition of Our Lady in Quito elevating Plínio Corrêa de Oliveira to semi-god status.

I want to remind readers that Plínio Corrêa de Oliveira has been worshipped before by TFP and Arautos do Evangelho.
I am unable to find any information on Arautos do Evangelho which is in English. Can you point me in that direction?
Other wise I will have to use Google Translate and have a friend check the translation.
Thank you
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Cera on July 16, 2019, 03:18:03 PM
Simple explanation: After the death of Plínio, the TFP split into two parts fighting each other. They even went to court.

Guimarães and Horvat later split from one of the two.

But all venerate or worship Plínio.
Yes, and more specifically TFP got the name but no money.


Heralds of the Gospel got the money but not the name.


Slave of Plinio, Slave # 11 aka Atila was left with neither the money nor the TFP name. Also in 1996, the expose of TFP as a cult by Rimini was published and that was when Atila decided to go to Montebello, California.


http://www.kelebekler.com/cesnur/storia/gb11.htm
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Cera on July 16, 2019, 03:25:13 PM
That's exactly the outcome that the devil wants !

"Divide and Conquer" is his favourite tactic.
He wants to see divisions among Catholics, he love to see Catholics fighting Catholics, and Catholic organisations splitting.
Yes, and that is why the enemy is behind the "heretical sect," as Bishop Mayer called TFP . They are the "controlled opposition."


Much like the way the Dems/ Media ignore Hilary's collusion with Russia to buy phony dirt on Trump and her collusion with Russia to illegally sell 20% of our weapon-ready plutonium to Russia -- and INSTEAD  falsely accuse Trump ---

So we see the actual controlled opposition TFP/TIA lie and INSTEAD falsely accuse SSPX of being the controlled opposition.
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Cera on July 16, 2019, 03:45:40 PM
Átila thinks that God is "more present" in Plínio Corrêa de Oliveira than in the sacred burning bush.

That's the way, Átila presents himself and his Plínio.
Great point Struthio. Illegitimi non carborundum. Those who belong to the heretical sect/ cult of personality in question are taught that good Catholics who are not members of their heretical cult are to be despised as "white heretics."


When they attack (or defend those who attack) Blessed Cardinal Newman, Archbishop Lefebvre, Bishop Travez, many good Traditional Catholic priests or those of us who speak the Truth, they actually believe themselves to be doing "good" in attacking others.


They are capable only of obfuscation, name-calling, and cut-and-pasting articles by their cult leader. They are emotion-based and not capable of articulating a cogent argument against the facts which have been presented here.


Those of us who love the Truth can pray for them -- that they will leave the heretical cult and come back to the Catholic Faith.
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Croixalist on July 16, 2019, 03:48:34 PM
You raise good points and mention one possibility regarding Atila's purported source of information --

"I can't imagine anyone offering the sort of information he claims to have received unless his contact was an actual nun (or nuns) within the convent itself."

Other possibilities are:

Atila or his proxy bugged the convent.

Atila made an elaborate "mental reservation" and manufactured his source in the service of what he personally believes to be a greater good.

We can only really work with his statements as they are. I don't think we have to needlessly antagonize Atila or TIA by coming up with scenarios that paint them as Bond villains. In fact, I think it only serves to weaken our own arguments. If there is the slightest chance that Atila truly believes who he is quoting is truthful, I would rather ask him to hold these testimonies to a higher standard than he has been. Now that there seems to be some glaring inconsistencies, I'd honestly like to see an attempt to address them. Otherwise we are simply inviting him to write us all off as provocateurs and not take the criticism seriously.  

There is always the chance he is making it up as he goes, but I'd prefer to eliminate all the other possibilities first.
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Cera on July 16, 2019, 03:56:09 PM

Trad -granny... tell me the truth now.


Is your PhD in the Microsoft cut & paste tool?

(https://proxy.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Ftse2.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DOIP.0-Zrhnn8da4WyU2hWSuYUQHaHy%26pid%3DApi&f=1)

How many times are you going to cut & paste that same old trash?


Can't you do something else?  

My goodness ! :farmer:
Somebody asked a question about the so-called "sacred slavery" of Atila to his slave master Plinio. I answered his question with the original source material. Your problem is with the facts, not with me.
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Cera on July 16, 2019, 03:58:33 PM
So the Bishop said TFP mistrusts the clergy....

The good Bishop Mayer did not say "TFP mistrusts the clergy."
What he said is that they are an "anti-Catholic, anti-clerical, heretical sect. . . to which no Catholic should belong."
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Struthio on July 16, 2019, 04:19:12 PM
I am unable to find any information on Arautos do Evangelho which is in English. Can you point me in that direction?

Sorry, I don't know of information on that sect in English.
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Pax Vobis on July 16, 2019, 05:22:09 PM
You guys make it sound like Plino and Atila are the 2nd coming of Charles Manson and Jim Jones.  

A.  Do you really think they are that dangerous?  

B.  Or are they just extreme Trads who, in the vacuum of V2, with the lack of catholic leadership from orthodox clerics (who were/are too busy with chapels, schools and traveling to help with lay Catholic Action), started an organization to do good, but which has veered off course (in some but not all areas)?

Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Struthio on July 16, 2019, 05:28:10 PM
You guys make it sound like Plino and Atila are the 2nd coming of Charles Manson and Jim Jones.  

A.  Do you really think they are that dangerous?  

B.  Or are they just extreme Trads who, in the vacuum of V2, with the lack of catholic leadership from orthodox clerics (who were/are too busy with chapels, schools and traveling to help with lay Catholic Action), started an organization to do good, but which has veered off course (in some but not all areas)?

You have received quite a lot of information. Now it is your duty to make your mind up.
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Pax Vobis on July 16, 2019, 05:48:30 PM
Haha.  Another dodge.  You have trouble answering direct questions, don’t you?
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Struthio on July 16, 2019, 05:59:29 PM
Haha.  Another dodge.  You have trouble answering direct questions, don’t you?

I have no trouble answering direct questions. When I do, you hush:


Quote from: Pax Vobis
This is just as blasphemous.  Do +Fellay's actions mean that every sspx priest is corrupt?  No.

Quote from: Struthio
In case you're interested in my opinion: Yes, every priest who would not speak up against blasphemous acts of his superior is corrupt.


And you, Pax Vobis, you are corrupt too. You read about these TIA blasphemies and attack the messenger and not the blasphemous TIA folks.
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Pax Vobis on July 16, 2019, 11:15:28 PM
Ok, you’ve answered 1 question directly and dodged only 3-4 others.  Congrats!

Secondly, the blasphemies you’ve spoken of are related to an individual, not the TIA as a whole.  This is the distinction I’m making but you continue in “all or nothing” thinking.  You refuse to admit any gray area.  You’re as extreme as you claim Plino/Atila are.  Quite humorous, in a sad way.  
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Struthio on July 17, 2019, 02:36:44 AM
Ok, you’ve answered 1 question directly and dodged only 3-4 others.  Congrats!

Secondly, the blasphemies you’ve spoken of are related to an individual, not the TIA as a whole.  This is the distinction I’m making but you continue in “all or nothing” thinking.  You refuse to admit any gray area.  You’re as extreme as you claim Plino/Atila are.  Quite humorous, in a sad way.  

Plínio is presented as a divine being on the TIA website. You and other TIA followers should make Átila and Marian stop doing so.

But you are corrupt and choose to attack me and not Átila/TIA. You choose to side with blasphemy and to fight against those who denounce it. 
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Nadir on July 17, 2019, 06:17:00 AM
Plínio is presented as a divine being on the TIA website. You and other TIA followers should make Átila and Marian stop doing so.

But you are corrupt and choose to attack me and not Átila/TIA. You choose to side with blasphemy and to fight against those who denounce it.
Would you kindly give me a link to illustrate the first statement?
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Struthio on July 17, 2019, 06:25:57 AM
Would you kindly give me a link to illustrate the first statement?

See one of my recent posts in this thread. Keyword: Moses. Page: 6.
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Pax Vobis on July 17, 2019, 09:17:42 AM
Quote
Plínio is presented as a divine being on the TIA website. You and other TIA followers should make Átila and Marian stop doing so.

But you are corrupt and choose to attack me and not Átila/TIA. You choose to side with blasphemy and to fight against those who denounce it. 

You're so overly-dramatic, it's ridiculous.  I'm not a TIA "follower"...I simply read stuff from their website.  And most of what I read is solid.
.
Frankly, I've never heard Plino's name until all these threads.  I've heard of Atila but only because he's alive.  If Plino and Atilia are blasphemers and nut jobs, ok.  Does that affect all the other people who write articles on their site?  I've not seen the bad influence appear in their articles.  I've seen +Fellay have more bad influence on the new-sspx than any kind of false apparitions or hero-worship from TIA.
.
I've said from the beginning that i'm only making a distinction that TIA is not all bad, even if the founders are crazy.  You refuse to make this distinction and then call me "corrupt" because you have some emotional pain assocated with TFP/TIA, (just like Cera) and you are triggered. 
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Meg on July 17, 2019, 10:52:57 AM
Hi Meg,
I've previously explained why I am concerned about the Plinio- worshiping cults.


1. Because I too got taken in by TIA's appearance of Catholicity.


2. And because when I began to research deeper into the writings of Atila and Marian, I realized that although they pretended to have left TFP, they had never left the Plinio- worshiping, anti-clerical parts of it.


3.  And because when I looked even deeper, I learned just how evil all of the Plinio-worshiping groups are. TFP was condemned by its local Bishop, by the Bishops of Brazil and by the civil authorities of two South American nations for child- trafficking (not sexual trafficking, but removing boys from access to their parents.)


4.  And because as I continued to research, I learned that Marion's brother runs the TFP in the  Pennsylvania and that the truly loony Plinio- worshiping group Heralds of the Gospel is now headquartered in Houston. They say that Plinio is in heaven at the right side of the Holy Virgin and that St. Michael the Archangel is his own personal guardian angel.


5. And as I continued to research, I learned that America Needs Fatima, a project of the TFP, says that the consecration of Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary has already been done. ANF is the Novus Ordo branch of TFP. A former member of TFP says "We always said 'When TFP needs money, America Needs Fatima'."


And much more . . .

Thanks for the information. I have not seen it before. You were directly involved with the TFP organization, then?
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Meg on July 17, 2019, 10:57:15 AM
https://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/f159_Defense_Port.htm
https://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/Internet_Files/F159_Defesa-Port.pdf


https://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/f142_Defense.htm
https://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/Internet_Files/F142_Defense_Eng.pdf


Átila thinks that God is "more present" in Plínio Corrêa de Oliveira than in the sacred burning bush.

That's the way, Átila presents himself and his Plínio.


From post above:

Atila wrote:

"The great Moses with his burning bush on the top of Sinai does not make me jealous. For if he were with God for 40 days, I have been with Plinio for 33 years. And in this relationship I see, perhaps, more of the divine presence than he before the sacred bush. And I guard hope that I may win the dispute with this prophet when I shall pass from this exile into the fatherland."


:o
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Meg on July 17, 2019, 11:46:27 AM

From post above:

Atila wrote:

"The great Moses with his burning bush on the top of Sinai does not make me jealous. For if he were with God for 40 days, I have been with Plinio for 33 years. And in this relationship I see, perhaps, more of the divine presence than he before the sacred bush. And I guard hope that I may win the dispute with this prophet when I shall pass from this exile into the fatherland."


:o

In addition to the strange comparison of Plinio to Moses, and Atila seeming to think that Plinio was greater than Moses (or maybe greater than the burning bush?), I find it odd that Atila would refer to heaven as the "Fatherland."

Is referring to heaven as the "Fatherland" an actual Catholic thing to do? I've not ever heard of Heaven being referred to as thus, but maybe it has been, and I've just not seen it. It kind of has that pagan "Odin" type of connotation to it, from Norse pagan mythology.

:confused:
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Struthio on July 17, 2019, 02:12:16 PM
In addition to the strange comparison of Plinio to Moses, and Atila seeming to think that Plinio was greater than Moses (or maybe greater than the burning bush?), I find it odd that Atila would refer to heaven as the "Fatherland."

Is referring to heaven as the "Fatherland" an actual Catholic thing to do? I've not ever heard of Heaven being referred to as thus, but maybe it has been, and I've just not seen it. It kind of has that pagan "Odin" type of connotation to it, from Norse pagan mythology.

:confused:

The analogy is: Átila = Moses / Plínio = divine voice of God in the bush.



The "Fatherland" is not Catholic. It's gnostic/caballistic/hermetic/...

Quote from: TIA
Organic Society and the Desire for Heaven

 Plinio Corrêa de Oliveira

Since this earth is a land of exile, it was made to not satisfy us entirely. If it could do so, it would not be an exile, but a kind of second fatherland, more like the magnificent fatherland God prepared for us in heavenly Paradise.

https://www.traditioninaction.org/OrganicSociety/A_004_DesireHeaven_PCO.htm


Quote from: The Terminology of Plotinus and of some Gnostic Writings
The One, is a "Father" of the intelligible (En. V, 8, 1). In the absolutely Transcendent is "the fatherland from which we originate and our Father is there" (En I, 6, 8). "The Father" is a common name for the Supreme Being with the Gnostics.

The Terminology of Plotinus and of some Gnostic Writings, Mainly the Fourth Treatise of the Jung Codex (http://www.nino-leiden.nl/download/3211) (PDF)
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Struthio on July 17, 2019, 02:45:23 PM
Frankly, I've never heard Plino's name until all these threads.  I've heard of Atila but only because he's alive.

Átila Sinke Guimarães is the editor of the TIA website (see traditioninaction.org).

6.090 results for site:traditioninaction.org
2.100 results for site:traditioninaction.org Guimarães
   951 results for site:traditioninaction.org Plínio

numbers by google


If Plino and Atilia are blasphemers and nut jobs, ok.  Does that affect all the other people who write articles on their site?

Yes, it affects them. They have put their names in support of Plínio and his "slave" Átila and his TIA Inc.
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Pax Vobis on July 17, 2019, 02:54:51 PM
What evidence do you have that everyone who writes for TIA is supports Plino 100%?  Can they not be writing just for support of the Faith?  Your view presupposes that most articles include Plino or Atila in some reference, which isn’t the case.  Most articles are about the Faith, not these 2 gentlemen.  
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Struthio on July 17, 2019, 03:23:27 PM
What evidence do you have that everyone who writes for TIA is supports Plino 100%?  Can they not be writing just for support of the Faith?  Your view presupposes that most articles include Plino or Atila in some reference, which isn’t the case.  Most articles are about the Faith, not these 2 gentlemen.  


One does not need such evidence to state that the blasphemy of Plínio and Átila affects them.
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Pax Vobis on July 17, 2019, 03:46:20 PM
If Joe Blow writes an article on TIA about St Francis and the Christmas Crib, how is this affected by Plino and Atila?
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Cera on July 17, 2019, 03:50:45 PM
Thanks for the information. I have not seen it before. You were directly involved with the TFP organization, then?
What I said was:
"Because I too got taken in by TIA's appearance of Catholicity."


How can you extrapolate so incorrectly from that? I was never directly involved with either cult organization. By "taken in," I mean that like others here, I too once thought they were a good Catholic group.


I am just someone who loves the Truth and thereby also the truth. So I research. And when I find that what many here on Cath Info praise as a wonderful Catholic group is in fact an anti-Catholic heretical sect, I have to speak the truth.


TFP has been condemned by Bishop Mayer, the Brazilian Council of Bishops, civil authorities in South America and former members as an anti-Catholic, heretical sect which prays the disgusting blasphemy "Let it no longer be I who live but rather Plinio in me who lives."


TIA, like TFP is focused on Plinio (nearly 900 pages by or about him on TIA). They "defend" TFP against unfounded but perceived injustices. Read their own articles. They never separated from TFP Plinio-worship. Marian Hovart goes on about how proud she is to have translated for Plinio, (cult leader of a heretical sect.)


TIA was founded by Atila aka slave #11 to Plinio. This un-Catholic blasphemy has never been denounced. On TIA, Atlia's long article is a rationalization for his being a slave to Plinio.


I thank God I found out the truth about all of the Plinio- worshiping groups without getting sucked in as many here on Cath Info have been. I continue to pray for their return to the Catholic Faith.
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Meg on July 17, 2019, 03:55:10 PM
What I said was:
"Because I too got taken in by TIA's appearance of Catholicity."


How can you extrapolate so incorrectly from that? I was never directly involved with either cult organization. By "taken in," I mean that like others here, I too once thought they were a good Catholic group.

You SHOULD have been more clear. It's not that difficult to do. I meant no personal insult; I was just trying to clarify your situation. Sheesh. 
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Cera on July 17, 2019, 04:00:28 PM
If Joe Blow writes an article on TIA about St Francis and the Christmas Crib, how is this affected by Plino and Atila?
It. Is. Not.
Would you drink from a cup that had a dead tarantula floating in it? Even if 95% of a website is Catholic, it does not mean that we can safely ignore their anti-Catholic, uncharitable, sleazy unfounded attacks on Blessed Cardinal Newman, Archbishop Lafebrve, Bishop Travez, numerous good Traditional Catholic priests, or anyone with whom they disagree.


Nor can we ignore Atila's disgusting un-Catholic attitude toward the marriage bed, easily found on this site.


Nor can we ignore the fact that Atila laid down in front of Plinio, with Plinio's foot on Atila's neck, and pledged his  "slavery" to Plinio. According to another slave who wrote an expose of the heretical cult, the slaves also went to confession to Plinio, a layman. (Document easily found on this site.)


The intelligence of the enemy is superior to human intelligence. When the enemy attacks good Catholic Bishops and priests, it is smart enough to do some from behind a pretense of Catholicism.
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Cera on July 17, 2019, 04:07:49 PM
In addition to the strange comparison of Plinio to Moses, and Atila seeming to think that Plinio was greater than Moses (or maybe greater than the burning bush?), I find it odd that Atila would refer to heaven as the "Fatherland."

Is referring to heaven as the "Fatherland" an actual Catholic thing to do? I've not ever heard of Heaven being referred to as thus, but maybe it has been, and I've just not seen it. It kind of has that pagan "Odin" type of connotation to it, from Norse pagan mythology.

:confused:
Hi Meg,
Interesting that the word "Fatherland" has come up.

I found this interesting connection between TFP, the CIA and a group called the Fatherland.
A good example of TFP’s connections with both the CIA and the military is the branch in Chile, which supplied the Chilean armed forces with a social philosophy-the generals had none – and a religious basis for the regime’s political witch-hunts.
    In the last months of the Allende government, TFP, the gremios, Fatherland and Liberty, and other right-wing opposition groups merged in a common front. The National Agriculture Society, for example, was controlled by Fatherland and Liberty and received CIA funds through an organization called the Congress for Cultural Liberty. The society, in turn, worked with the Association of Manufacturers, whose president, Orlando Saenz, was one of the directors of the TFP-backed gremios as well as a secret leader of Fatherland and Liberty. A month before the coup Saenz publicly thanked the president of the Agriculture Society for “the services lent earlier by you to our cause.” Both groups had close ties with El Mercurio, Santiago’s largest newspaper, which was financed by the CIA and used as an outlet for anti-Allende propaganda, according to U. S. Senate investigations. They also shared important Brazilian connections. Fatherland and Liberty obtained arms from Brazil through a Chilean coffee-importing firm which brought in, via the port of Valparaiso, crates of guns disguised as raw material for the manufacture of instant coffee. Saenz was in close touch with the financial and ideological backers of Brazil’s TFP, which had been in at the kill of Goulart’s regime. (Several of the tactics used in Chile were tested by TFP in Brazil. With CIA help, TFP sponsored in Sao Paulo a march of several thousand middle- and upper-class women that was psychologically crucial to the coup ten days later. Similarly, women’s groups sponsored by TFP and Fatherland and Liberty held their largest demonstration five days before Allende’s overthrow.
    U.S. congressional investigations have established that the CIA spent $13 million to thwart Allende, but with some exceptions, such as El Mercurio and Fatherland and Liberty, details of how the money was allocated have not been revealed. How much the CIA gave the TFP may never be known, but there are numerous links between the two organizations, particularly through Fatherland and Liberty, in addition to an established connection in the campaign to discredit the country’s Catholic Church.
    http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Latin_America/Villains_Afoot_COTP.html


Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Cera on July 17, 2019, 04:10:42 PM
More on "Fatherland"

Fatherland brings to mind law, government and order and Germany is a country that is in favor of these things and is such often referred to as the Fatherland. Fatherland was most commonly used during the time of Nazi Germany due to the large amount of government power in the country at that time.


https://www.reference.com/geography/germany-called-fatherland-4e867a691676fa5e
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Struthio on July 17, 2019, 04:42:41 PM
Ich bin Deutscher und Deutschland ist mein Vaterland.

I am German and Germany is the land of my fathers.


Vaterland is the German word for Latin patria.

In Europe, the "land of the fathers" (in various languages) in general is not confused with the coming Reign of Christ (except maybe in esoterical circles).
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Struthio on July 17, 2019, 04:45:18 PM
P.S.: The portuguese original of Átila is "patria", the translation by Marian Horvat has "Fatherland".
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Meg on July 17, 2019, 05:06:08 PM
I appreciate your good explanations, Struthio. 
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Pax Vobis on July 17, 2019, 05:06:55 PM
Quote
It. Is. Not.
Would you drink from a cup that had a dead tarantula floating in it?
So it's not affected but it is?  Makes no sense.
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Incredulous on July 17, 2019, 09:38:06 PM
If Joe Blow writes an article on TIA about St Francis and the Christmas Crib, how is this affected by Plino and Atila?


Meg (Jade), Cera (Trad granny) Struthio (Father Purdy?), in any case, all SSPX trolls posting here.

Their only game is too defame TIA and Atila.

 Putting Purdy groupies on an open, Resistance forum is easy to do.
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Struthio on July 18, 2019, 07:00:21 AM

Meg (Jade), Cera (Trad granny) Struthio (Father Purdy?), in any case, all SSPX trolls posting here.

Their only game is too defame TIA and Atila.

 Putting Purdy groupies on an open, Resistance forum is easy to do.

My assessment is that Father Purdy and the SSPX are a covert operation of modernists/freemasons to bring trads "home to conciliar land". But, whatever one thinks about Father Purdy or the SSPX, Átila Sinke Guimarães compares himself to Moses and Plínio Corrêa de Oliveira to the divine fire and voice in the burning bush. Corresponding quotes and links to TIA can be found in this thread.

Since Incredulous does not reject such worship of a creature, but rather attacks those who denounce it, Catholic readers will know what to think of Incredulous.
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Cera on July 18, 2019, 03:08:06 PM
P.S.: The portuguese original of Átila is "patria", the translation by Marian Horvat has "Fatherland".
Interesting.
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Cera on July 18, 2019, 03:11:07 PM
So it's not affected but it is?  Makes no sense.
You suggested that if a website has mostly good information, we should simply ignore the heretical aspects which are a part of it.
Therefore I asked you if you would drink a glass of water (primarily good) if it had a tarantula (heresy) in it.
Would you?
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Cera on July 18, 2019, 03:24:48 PM

Meg (Jade), Cera (Trad granny) Struthio (Father Purdy?), in any case, all SSPX trolls posting here.

Their only game is too defame TIA and Atila.

 Putting Purdy groupies on an open, Resistance forum is easy to do.
It's amusing that you are the one doing exactly that of which you accuse others. You are habitually argumentative and post name-calling messages in order to disrupt this website and/or shut down anyone whose views differ from your own
.
According to the Urban Dictionary,
troll is (https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=troll) One who posts a deliberately provocative (https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=provocative) message to a newsgroup (https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=newsgroup) or message board with the intention of causing maximum disruption (https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=disruption) and argument.

This is a Catholic website, moderated by Matthew, who launched this thread which is called  "Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group." Obviously the moderator of a website is the person who determines what is and what is not trolling.

Therefore, unless you are saying that the moderator of Cath Info is trolling his own website -- your comments make no sense. Like most bullies, you attack those whom you perceive to be the weakest targets of your venom: women and a newbie. It is glaringly obvious that you are avoiding attacking the webmaster.

Anyone with whom you disagree you label not only as a troll, but as an SSPX troll. FYI I attend a traditional Catholic chapel and don't even know any SSPX priests (not that that's a bad thing.)

Those of us who you repeatedly attack are truth-seekers with open minds. Only an Atila groupie would see us as problematic.
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Croixalist on July 18, 2019, 08:40:38 PM
I admit, I hadn't read the entire letter. I wasn't aware Atila crossed the line from veneration to fanaticism and blasphemy. While it's hard for me to believe Plinio wasn't aware of this, suffice to say this is enough to cast a permanent pall over Mr. Guimaraes' intentions for TIA as well as what he believes TFP ought to be.    

Atila Guimaraes https://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/Internet_Files/F142_Defense_Eng.pdf (https://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/Internet_Files/F142_Defense_Eng.pdf) pgs 36-37
"In the 51 years that I have roamed on this earth, I did not know a better image of God than my relationship with Dr. Plinio. Neither my admiration for Medieval Civilization, nor my enthusiasm for Chivalry or the magnificent architecture of the cathedrals, nor the elevated analysis of the organic regimes of yesteryear, nor my reverential respect for Charlemagne, nor the devotion I have to certain Saints – Michael the Archangel, Elias, Gregory VII, John the Evangelist, Augustine, Thomas Aquinas and especially Louis Grignion de Montfort, nor my complete affinity with the Holy Inquisition and the silent veneration that I pay to the mystery of the Liturgy(!) gave me anything comparable. Even the contemplation of God's plans in History, of which I am an aficionado admirer, did not bring me the broadness of panoramas and the sense of the divine that my relationship with Dr. Plinio provided.

Not that such a relationship was perfect on my part – far be it from me to hold such pretensions – but on his part it was. And since there are certain supernatural realities that are expressed only in a relationship, the fact that they were perfect on his part and that I did not oppose great resistance to him on my part, they could flow normally, reflecting what God wanted them to reflect for me and, perhaps, also for Dr. Plinio. It was through such a relationship that I learned the true love for the Catholic Church, which he taught me to venerate with all my soul.

"It was through this means that I came to know Wisdom, reflected in him, but in so translucent a way that in him I could glimpse the Eternal Wisdom, the Subsistent Truth, the Second Person of the Holy Trinity. It was through this means that I understood Grandeur – a man who assumes everything good that existed in History and, by declaring himself in the state of counter-attack, causes the good of the past to be reborn and opens the doors of the future.
 
It was through my relationship with him that I understood Magnanimity, this new name for the love of God by which the bountifulness of the superior naturally leads to the detachment and joy of the inferior. A virtue that makes it easy to understand what was and what is the disinterest of the Good Shepherd who gives His life for His sheep. It was in my relationship with him that I discovered Holy Wrath against the enemies of the Catholic name, a wrath proper to those truly innocent men, true lovers of the Holy City. Here also I understood what Courage is, a lofty, elevated and disdainful fearlessness in face of the bad, the revolutionary, the conspirators who plot the destruction of Christendom. It was in him that I learned what certainty of victory is and, in a word, the unshakeable certainty of the full realization of his vocation and, permit me to say, of mine as well.
 
This relationship, with which Our Lady and he wanted to reward me, is sacred to me. The great Moses with his burning bush on the top of Sinai does not make me jealous. For if he were there with God for 40 days, I have been with Dr. Plinio for 33 years. And in this relationship I see, perhaps, more of the divine presence than he before the sacred bush. And I guard the hope that I still may win the dispute with this Prophet when I shall pass from this exile to the Fatherland."



Come on guys. Incred, Pax, do you really find this acceptable? You don't have to agree with everything I'm saying, or Cera or Meg, and you don't have to give an inch to the SSPX, but can't you see how wrong this is? It's pretty disgusting stuff to read. Deluded and blasphemous are the only words I have to describe it. If the previous accusations against the TFP were out and out lies, I certainly wouldn't consider them exaggerations any more.

Atila could have used any other occasion to criticize the SSPX openly, yet he chose to take a stand over TFP of all things. More specifically, his version of TFP which carries with it every appearance of cult-like devotion in light of his departing letter. His "vision."

Quote from: (https://www.cathinfo.com/index.php?topic=52669.msg659825#msg659825)Atila Guimaraes https://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/Internet_Files/F142_Defense_Eng.pdf (https://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/Internet_Files/F142_Defense_Eng.pdf) pg 36
However, Mr. President, the point that struck me regarding your omissions, which I found especially bitter to note, was the oblivion I noted in your letter of my right to keep in its entirety the noble vision of Dr. Plinio that Our Lady gave me.

Could it have anything to do with Atila's reference to the TFP as being the Apostles prophesied by St. Montfort?


Quote from: (https://www.cathinfo.com/index.php?topic=52669.msg659825#msg659825)Atila Guimaraes https://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/Internet_Files/F142_Defense_Eng.pdf (https://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/Internet_Files/F142_Defense_Eng.pdf) pg 36
If we turn to the prophetic predictions of St. Louis Maria Grignion de Montfort in his Fire Prayer, we find a description of the current panorama. "Fire! Fire! Fire in the House of God!" Who are the men who will come to rescue her? Were they not we? Was this not one of the noblest hopes
that inflamed the expectations of the best among us in the finest hours of our vocation? Didn't Dr. Plinio believe that the Congregation of the Apostles of the Latter Times [predicted by St. Louis] was founded on May 18, 1967 [when our consecration of slaves of Our Lady was made]?


Does anyone want to hazard a guess as to what a "manifestation" of Plinio means?


Quote from: (https://www.cathinfo.com/index.php?topic=52669.msg659825#msg659825)Atila Guimaraes https://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/Internet_Files/F142_Defense_Eng.pdf (https://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/Internet_Files/F142_Defense_Eng.pdf) pg 33
First, because Dr. Plinio having promised that he would not abandon us, he did not abandon us. Second, because he said, "If I die, look for where I will be manifesting myself, and I will guide you there." This means that we should look for where he is. Obeying him, I looked for him. Others will have found him in various places. I found him in the fight; this is where I noted his manifestation and, perhaps, as I believe, others will also find him there.


Am I the only one getting the sense that these guys are puffing themselves up to burst?


Quote from: (https://www.cathinfo.com/index.php?topic=52669.msg659825#msg659825)Plinio Correa https://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/Internet_Files/F142_Defense_Eng.pdf (https://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/Internet_Files/F142_Defense_Eng.pdf) pg 33
"I became a Crusader. That is, a man different from all men. Because Our Lord Jesus Christ, Who is the perfection of all things and Who is the fulfillment of the most perfect things, Our Lord Jesus Christ will now be avenged by me. I will perform the beauty of the revenge, of the fight for the fight, of the revenge for the revenge of Christ Our Lord for Christ Our Lord."


Oh will you, Plinio? Which posthumous manifestation where you planning to send? If anyone is so blinded by their hatred of the SSPX that they will defend this lunacy or pretend it doesn't exist, deserves to have their powers of judgment questioned.

Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Struthio on July 20, 2019, 02:47:58 PM
Quote from: Croixalist
It's pretty disgusting stuff to read. Deluded and blasphemous are the only words I have to describe it.


Yes indeed. And the quotes have been translated into English and published again recently:


Quote from: TIA
In January 2017, TIA hosted an Event celebrating [...]

Some of our supporters and friends present at that celebration asked us if they could read this Defense; others insisted that a translation of it to English should be available to the public. Dr. Marian Horvat accepted their suggestion and translated the document from Portuguese to English.

Even though the Defense was written many years ago, it seems opportune to us to circulate it now [...]

https://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/f142_Defense.htm


It's not that these blasphemies of Átila Sinke Guimarães are long forgotten.
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Incredulous on July 20, 2019, 04:49:36 PM

Yes indeed. And the quotes have been translated into English and published again recently:


https://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/f142_Defense.htm


It's not that these blasphemies of Átila Sinke Guimarães are long forgotten.


Oh, let me guess...  it was the polyglot Fr. Purdy who translated it...

for the benefit "of the people" of course ?

(http://www.sspxflorida.com/sites/sspx/files/styles/dici_image_full_width/public/_mg_0234.jpg?itok=MIMMiNQ6)
He's mastered multiple languages...

including New York City English, Jersey City English and Filipino pidgin, which his adoring trad groupies taught him. 

Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Cera on July 20, 2019, 05:04:47 PM
I admit, I hadn't read the entire letter. I wasn't aware Atila crossed the line from veneration to fanaticism and blasphemy. While it's hard for me to believe Plinio wasn't aware of this, suffice to say this is enough to cast a permanent pall over Mr. Guimaraes' intentions for TIA as well as what he believes TFP ought to be.    

Atila Guimaraes https://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/Internet_Files/F142_Defense_Eng.pdf (https://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/Internet_Files/F142_Defense_Eng.pdf) pgs 36-37
"In the 51 years that I have roamed on this earth, I did not know a better image of God than my relationship with Dr. Plinio. Neither my admiration for Medieval Civilization, nor my enthusiasm for Chivalry or the magnificent architecture of the cathedrals, nor the elevated analysis of the organic regimes of yesteryear, nor my reverential respect for Charlemagne, nor the devotion I have to certain Saints – Michael the Archangel, Elias, Gregory VII, John the Evangelist, Augustine, Thomas Aquinas and especially Louis Grignion de Montfort, nor my complete affinity with the Holy Inquisition and the silent veneration that I pay to the mystery of the Liturgy(!) gave me anything comparable. Even the contemplation of God's plans in History, of which I am an aficionado admirer, did not bring me the broadness of panoramas and the sense of the divine that my relationship with Dr. Plinio provided.

Not that such a relationship was perfect on my part – far be it from me to hold such pretensions – but on his part it was. And since there are certain supernatural realities that are expressed only in a relationship, the fact that they were perfect on his part and that I did not oppose great resistance to him on my part, they could flow normally, reflecting what God wanted them to reflect for me and, perhaps, also for Dr. Plinio. It was through such a relationship that I learned the true love for the Catholic Church, which he taught me to venerate with all my soul.

"It was through this means that I came to know Wisdom, reflected in him, but in so translucent a way that in him I could glimpse the Eternal Wisdom, the Subsistent Truth, the Second Person of the Holy Trinity. It was through this means that I understood Grandeur – a man who assumes everything good that existed in History and, by declaring himself in the state of counter-attack, causes the good of the past to be reborn and opens the doors of the future.
 
It was through my relationship with him that I understood Magnanimity, this new name for the love of God by which the bountifulness of the superior naturally leads to the detachment and joy of the inferior. A virtue that makes it easy to understand what was and what is the disinterest of the Good Shepherd who gives His life for His sheep. It was in my relationship with him that I discovered Holy Wrath against the enemies of the Catholic name, a wrath proper to those truly innocent men, true lovers of the Holy City. Here also I understood what Courage is, a lofty, elevated and disdainful fearlessness in face of the bad, the revolutionary, the conspirators who plot the destruction of Christendom. It was in him that I learned what certainty of victory is and, in a word, the unshakeable certainty of the full realization of his vocation and, permit me to say, of mine as well.
 
This relationship, with which Our Lady and he wanted to reward me, is sacred to me. The great Moses with his burning bush on the top of Sinai does not make me jealous. For if he were there with God for 40 days, I have been with Dr. Plinio for 33 years. And in this relationship I see, perhaps, more of the divine presence than he before the sacred bush. And I guard the hope that I still may win the dispute with this Prophet when I shall pass from this exile to the Fatherland."



Come on guys. Incred, Pax, do you really find this acceptable? You don't have to agree with everything I'm saying, or Cera or Meg, and you don't have to give an inch to the SSPX, but can't you see how wrong this is? It's pretty disgusting stuff to read. Deluded and blasphemous are the only words I have to describe it. If the previous accusations against the TFP were out and out lies, I certainly wouldn't consider them exaggerations any more.

Atila could have used any other occasion to criticize the SSPX openly, yet he chose to take a stand over TFP of all things. More specifically, his version of TFP which carries with it every appearance of cult-like devotion in light of his departing letter. His "vision."

Quote from: (https://www.cathinfo.com/index.php?topic=52669.msg659825#msg659825)Atila Guimaraes https://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/Internet_Files/F142_Defense_Eng.pdf (https://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/Internet_Files/F142_Defense_Eng.pdf) pg 36
However, Mr. President, the point that struck me regarding your omissions, which I found especially bitter to note, was the oblivion I noted in your letter of my right to keep in its entirety the noble vision of Dr. Plinio that Our Lady gave me.

Could it have anything to do with Atila's reference to the TFP as being the Apostles prophesied by St. Montfort?


Quote from: (https://www.cathinfo.com/index.php?topic=52669.msg659825#msg659825)Atila Guimaraes https://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/Internet_Files/F142_Defense_Eng.pdf (https://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/Internet_Files/F142_Defense_Eng.pdf) pg 36
If we turn to the prophetic predictions of St. Louis Maria Grignion de Montfort in his Fire Prayer, we find a description of the current panorama. "Fire! Fire! Fire in the House of God!" Who are the men who will come to rescue her? Were they not we? Was this not one of the noblest hopes
that inflamed the expectations of the best among us in the finest hours of our vocation? Didn't Dr. Plinio believe that the Congregation of the Apostles of the Latter Times [predicted by St. Louis] was founded on May 18, 1967 [when our consecration of slaves of Our Lady was made]?


Does anyone want to hazard a guess as to what a "manifestation" of Plinio means?


Quote from: (https://www.cathinfo.com/index.php?topic=52669.msg659825#msg659825)Atila Guimaraes https://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/Internet_Files/F142_Defense_Eng.pdf (https://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/Internet_Files/F142_Defense_Eng.pdf) pg 33
First, because Dr. Plinio having promised that he would not abandon us, he did not abandon us. Second, because he said, "If I die, look for where I will be manifesting myself, and I will guide you there." This means that we should look for where he is. Obeying him, I looked for him. Others will have found him in various places. I found him in the fight; this is where I noted his manifestation and, perhaps, as I believe, others will also find him there.


Am I the only one getting the sense that these guys are puffing themselves up to burst?


Quote from: (https://www.cathinfo.com/index.php?topic=52669.msg659825#msg659825)Plinio Correa https://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/Internet_Files/F142_Defense_Eng.pdf (https://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/Internet_Files/F142_Defense_Eng.pdf) pg 33
"I became a Crusader. That is, a man different from all men. Because Our Lord Jesus Christ, Who is the perfection of all things and Who is the fulfillment of the most perfect things, Our Lord Jesus Christ will now be avenged by me. I will perform the beauty of the revenge, of the fight for the fight, of the revenge for the revenge of Christ Our Lord for Christ Our Lord."


Oh will you, Plinio? Which posthumous manifestation where you planning to send? If anyone is so blinded by their hatred of the SSPX that they will defend this lunacy or pretend it doesn't exist, deserves to have their powers of judgment questioned.
Thank you Croix for the brilliant exposition of their own words.
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Struthio on July 20, 2019, 07:39:01 PM
Oh, let me guess...  it was the polyglot Fr. Purdy who translated it...

Since in my previous post I already quoted TIA to indicate who translated Átila's blasphemies, I will switch to your own presentation style to arouse your attention:


(https://www.traditioninaction.org/Collection/Images/00_E2-080.jpg)


Quote from: Átila Sinke Guimarães, 1997
O grande Moisés, com sua sarça ardente no alto do Sinai, não me faz inveja. Pois, se ele ali se relacionou com Deus durante quarenta dias, eu me relaciono com Doutor Plinio há trinta e três anos. E, em tais relações, vejo talvez mais a presença divina do que ele ante o sagrado arbusto. E guardo a esperança de ainda vencer o Profeta nesta tertúlia, quando eu passar do atual degredo para a Pátria.



(https://www.traditioninaction.org/Collection/Images/00_E2-081.jpg)


Quote from: Átila Sinke Guimarães, 1997 [translation by Marian Horvat, 2018]
The great Moses with his burning bush on the top of Sinai does not make me jealous. For if he were there with God for 40 days, I have been with Dr. Plinio for 33 years. And in this relationship I see, perhaps, more of the divine presence than he before the sacred bush. And I guard the hope that I still may win the dispute with this Prophet when I shall pass from this exile to the Fatherland.



Come back to reality, Incredulous! It's better over here.



Sources:
https://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/Internet_Files/F159_Defesa-Port.pdf
https://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/Internet_Files/F142_Defense_Eng.pdf
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Cera on July 21, 2019, 06:22:31 PM

Oh, let me guess...  it was the polyglot Fr. Purdy who translated it...
Dear Incred,
On his own website, Atila says Plinio is more important to him than God.

And your response is to say that Atila’s writing was translated by a priest you dislike? How does that even make sense? Atila put his own words on his own website.

https://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/Internet_Files/F142_Defense_Eng.pdf
p 36-

"In the 51 years that I have roamed on this earth, I did not know a better image of God than my relationship with Dr. Plinio. Neither my admiration for Medieval Civilization, nor my enthusiasm for Chivalry or the magnificent architecture of the cathedrals, nor the elevated analysis of the organic regimes of yesteryear, nor my reverential respect for Charlemagne, nor the devotion I have to certain Saints – Michael the Archangel, Elias, Gregory VII, John the Evangelist, Augustine, Thomas Aquinas and especially Louis Grignion de Montfort, nor my complete affinity with the Holy Inquisition and the silent veneration that I pay to the mystery of the Liturgy gave me anything comparable. Even the contemplation of God's plans in History, of which I am an aficionado admirer, did not bring me the broadness of panoramas and the sense of the divine that my relationship with Dr. Plinio provided.
. . .
This relationship, with which Our Lady and he wanted to reward me, is sacred to me. The great Moses with his burning bush on the top of Sinai does not make me jealous. For if he were there with God for 40 days, I have been with Dr. Plinio for 33 years. And in this relationship I see, perhaps, more of the divine presence than he before the sacred bush. And I guard the hope that I still may win the dispute with this Prophet when I shall pass from this exile to the Fatherland."
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Struthio on July 28, 2019, 07:40:46 PM
Quote from: Incredulous
But Cera honors him? [Cardinal Newman]  

She detests TIA because they researched Cardinal Newman extensively and found his cause for Canonization wanting.

https://www.cathinfo.com/general-discussion/blessed-cardinal-john-henry-newman-to-be-canonized-oct-13/msg660885/#msg660885


Let's discuss Cera and TIA in this thread, Incredulous, and not everywhere else in the forum. This thread here is the thread which shows that Cera was right to insist in outing Átila Sinke Guimarães and TIA as a blasphemous chap and a blasphemous site.

Here we can read about Átila's worship of a creature, worship of Plínio Corrêa de Oliveira, which he himself published on TIA, confirming well known accusations against TFP, TIA, and himself.

Here we also can ask, why you keep stalking Cera and defending the blasphemous Átila, after knowing the facts.


Quotes from TIA, see:

https://www.cathinfo.com/sspx-resistance-news/warning-against-tia-de-oliveira-from-a-priest-who-knows-the-group-52583/msg659989/#msg659989
https://www.cathinfo.com/sspx-resistance-news/warning-against-tia-de-oliveira-from-a-priest-who-knows-the-group-52583/msg659773/#msg659773
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Alan on July 30, 2019, 09:03:52 PM
(I) Faithful Catholics invited member of "anti-Catholic" organisation* to join important conference
 
   Participants in the roundtable discussion, which will be moderated by John Smeaton, chief executive of the Society for the Protection of Unborn Children (UK), include:



(https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/upcoming-vatican-conference-to-address-questions-confronting-amazon-synod (https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/upcoming-vatican-conference-to-address-questions-confronting-amazon-synod))



(II) Famous Catholic author sympathetic to "anti-Catholic" organisation*

  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQf05UMVc1M (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQf05UMVc1M)



* It is "ant-Catholic" according to Cera (only)
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Struthio on July 30, 2019, 09:17:04 PM
Alan, did you see the Plíniolatry posted by Átila Sinke Guimarães on TIA?
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Cera on July 31, 2019, 02:24:07 PM
I admit, I hadn't read the entire letter. I wasn't aware Atila crossed the line from veneration to fanaticism and blasphemy. While it's hard for me to believe Plinio wasn't aware of this, suffice to say this is enough to cast a permanent pall over Mr. Guimaraes' intentions for TIA as well as what he believes TFP ought to be.    

Atila Guimaraes https://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/Internet_Files/F142_Defense_Eng.pdf (https://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/Internet_Files/F142_Defense_Eng.pdf) pgs 36-37
"In the 51 years that I have roamed on this earth, I did not know a better image of God than my relationship with Dr. Plinio. Neither my admiration for Medieval Civilization, nor my enthusiasm for Chivalry or the magnificent architecture of the cathedrals, nor the elevated analysis of the organic regimes of yesteryear, nor my reverential respect for Charlemagne, nor the devotion I have to certain Saints – Michael the Archangel, Elias, Gregory VII, John the Evangelist, Augustine, Thomas Aquinas and especially Louis Grignion de Montfort, nor my complete affinity with the Holy Inquisition and the silent veneration that I pay to the mystery of the Liturgy(!) gave me anything comparable. Even the contemplation of God's plans in History, of which I am an aficionado admirer, did not bring me the broadness of panoramas and the sense of the divine that my relationship with Dr. Plinio provided.

Not that such a relationship was perfect on my part – far be it from me to hold such pretensions – but on his part it was. And since there are certain supernatural realities that are expressed only in a relationship, the fact that they were perfect on his part and that I did not oppose great resistance to him on my part, they could flow normally, reflecting what God wanted them to reflect for me and, perhaps, also for Dr. Plinio. It was through such a relationship that I learned the true love for the Catholic Church, which he taught me to venerate with all my soul.

"It was through this means that I came to know Wisdom, reflected in him, but in so translucent a way that in him I could glimpse the Eternal Wisdom, the Subsistent Truth, the Second Person of the Holy Trinity. It was through this means that I understood Grandeur – a man who assumes everything good that existed in History and, by declaring himself in the state of counter-attack, causes the good of the past to be reborn and opens the doors of the future.
 
It was through my relationship with him that I understood Magnanimity, this new name for the love of God by which the bountifulness of the superior naturally leads to the detachment and joy of the inferior. A virtue that makes it easy to understand what was and what is the disinterest of the Good Shepherd who gives His life for His sheep. It was in my relationship with him that I discovered Holy Wrath against the enemies of the Catholic name, a wrath proper to those truly innocent men, true lovers of the Holy City. Here also I understood what Courage is, a lofty, elevated and disdainful fearlessness in face of the bad, the revolutionary, the conspirators who plot the destruction of Christendom. It was in him that I learned what certainty of victory is and, in a word, the unshakeable certainty of the full realization of his vocation and, permit me to say, of mine as well.
 
This relationship, with which Our Lady and he wanted to reward me, is sacred to me. The great Moses with his burning bush on the top of Sinai does not make me jealous. For if he were there with God for 40 days, I have been with Dr. Plinio for 33 years. And in this relationship I see, perhaps, more of the divine presence than he before the sacred bush. And I guard the hope that I still may win the dispute with this Prophet when I shall pass from this exile to the Fatherland."



Come on guys. Incred, Pax, do you really find this acceptable? You don't have to agree with everything I'm saying, or Cera or Meg, and you don't have to give an inch to the SSPX, but can't you see how wrong this is? It's pretty disgusting stuff to read. Deluded and blasphemous are the only words I have to describe it. If the previous accusations against the TFP were out and out lies, I certainly wouldn't consider them exaggerations any more.

Atila could have used any other occasion to criticize the SSPX openly, yet he chose to take a stand over TFP of all things. More specifically, his version of TFP which carries with it every appearance of cult-like devotion in light of his departing letter. His "vision."

Quote from: (https://www.cathinfo.com/index.php?topic=52669.msg659825#msg659825)Atila Guimaraes https://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/Internet_Files/F142_Defense_Eng.pdf (https://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/Internet_Files/F142_Defense_Eng.pdf) pg 36
However, Mr. President, the point that struck me regarding your omissions, which I found especially bitter to note, was the oblivion I noted in your letter of my right to keep in its entirety the noble vision of Dr. Plinio that Our Lady gave me.

Could it have anything to do with Atila's reference to the TFP as being the Apostles prophesied by St. Montfort?


Quote from: (https://www.cathinfo.com/index.php?topic=52669.msg659825#msg659825)Atila Guimaraes https://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/Internet_Files/F142_Defense_Eng.pdf (https://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/Internet_Files/F142_Defense_Eng.pdf) pg 36
If we turn to the prophetic predictions of St. Louis Maria Grignion de Montfort in his Fire Prayer, we find a description of the current panorama. "Fire! Fire! Fire in the House of God!" Who are the men who will come to rescue her? Were they not we? Was this not one of the noblest hopes
that inflamed the expectations of the best among us in the finest hours of our vocation? Didn't Dr. Plinio believe that the Congregation of the Apostles of the Latter Times [predicted by St. Louis] was founded on May 18, 1967 [when our consecration of slaves of Our Lady was made]?


Does anyone want to hazard a guess as to what a "manifestation" of Plinio means?


Quote from: (https://www.cathinfo.com/index.php?topic=52669.msg659825#msg659825)Atila Guimaraes https://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/Internet_Files/F142_Defense_Eng.pdf (https://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/Internet_Files/F142_Defense_Eng.pdf) pg 33
First, because Dr. Plinio having promised that he would not abandon us, he did not abandon us. Second, because he said, "If I die, look for where I will be manifesting myself, and I will guide you there." This means that we should look for where he is. Obeying him, I looked for him. Others will have found him in various places. I found him in the fight; this is where I noted his manifestation and, perhaps, as I believe, others will also find him there.


Am I the only one getting the sense that these guys are puffing themselves up to burst?


Quote from: (https://www.cathinfo.com/index.php?topic=52669.msg659825#msg659825)Plinio Correa https://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/Internet_Files/F142_Defense_Eng.pdf (https://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/Internet_Files/F142_Defense_Eng.pdf) pg 33
"I became a Crusader. That is, a man different from all men. Because Our Lord Jesus Christ, Who is the perfection of all things and Who is the fulfillment of the most perfect things, Our Lord Jesus Christ will now be avenged by me. I will perform the beauty of the revenge, of the fight for the fight, of the revenge for the revenge of Christ Our Lord for Christ Our Lord."


Oh will you, Plinio? Which posthumous manifestation where you planning to send? If anyone is so blinded by their hatred of the SSPX that they will defend this lunacy or pretend it doesn't exist, deserves to have their powers of judgment questioned.
I nominate this post as BEST POST OF THE YEAR.
Thank you again, Croix.
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Croixalist on August 01, 2019, 08:48:45 AM
I nominate this post as BEST POST OF THE YEAR.
Thank you again, Croix.
Thank you for the compliment, I'm glad it helped.
That correspondence really threw me for a loop once I actually went through all of it. If you folks hadn't highlighted the Plinio-burning bush comparison, I wouldn't have trudged through it. Now that some new rounds of debunking have come out of the RadTradThomist camp regarding their purported letter of Fatima, the downward spiral continues. It pains me to think that all of his may have been calculated from the start. I remember how Voris inexplicably turned on the connections he had made with the SSPX-aligned writers after years of cultivating them. Was it all just part of a scheme to jumpstart interest in their group only to break all ties once they secured more finances and widespread notoriety? If they did, TIA played it a lot smarter than CM and I think the fact they still have defenders on the Resistance side of things is a testament to their effectiveness. I only wish I was able to convey how dangerous a group like this can be to those who remain unconvinced.
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Struthio on August 01, 2019, 02:06:57 PM
Orlando Fedeli (en.wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orlando_Fedeli)) is the most notorious critic of Plínio Corrêa de Oliveria. He had been a member of the TFP for decades, and he compiled witness accounts of members of the "inner sect" of the TFP and of other such sects lead by Plínio.

With respect to Átila Sinke Guimarães's personal "burning-bush-Pliniolatry", published in 1998, and recently published on TIA (https://www.cathinfo.com/sspx-resistance-news/warning-against-tia-de-oliveira-from-a-priest-who-knows-the-group-52583/msg659773/#msg659773) again, Orlando Fedeli explained:

Quote from: Orlando Fedeli
Essas palavras de Átila Sinke Guimarães patenteiam o orgulho fanático dos sequazes de Plínio. A sarça ardente é figura da Encarnação do Verbo, da presença da luz de Deus no seio de Nossa Senhora. É figura da união hipostática: o Verbo de Deus encarnado em Jesus Cristo. É figura da Igreja, humanamente fraca como a sarça, que se consome ardente de amor a Deus, na História, enquanto Deus fala por meio dela. Para os fanáticos da TFP e dos Arautos, Deus estaria mais presente em Plínio que na sarça ardente. Portanto, Deus estaria mais presente em Plínio do que em Cristo, Deus e homem; do que me Maria Santíssima; do que na Igreja. Em Plínio, haveria uma presença de Deus única.
montfort.org.br (http://www.montfort.org.br/bra/cadernos/religiao/pco-i/)


Here my translation (my mother tongue is neither Portuguese nor English):

Quote
These words of Átila Sinke Guimarães make the fanatical pride of the followers of Plínio patent. The burning bush is a figure of the incarnation of the Word, of the presence of the light of God in the bosom of Our Lady. It's a figure of the hypostatic union: the Word of God incarnate in Jesus Christ. It's a figure of the Church, humanly weak like the bush, which is being consumed by the burning of love to God, in history, while God speaks through it. For the fanatics of the TFP and of the Arautos, God would be more present in Plínio than in the burning bush. Hence, God would be more present in Plínio than in Christ – God and man; more than in Maria Most Holy; more than in the Church. In Plínio, there would be a unique presence of God.
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Cera on August 01, 2019, 05:21:17 PM
Orlando Fedeli (en.wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orlando_Fedeli)) is the most notorious critic of Plínio Corrêa de Oliveria. He had been a member of the TFP for decades, and he compiled witness accounts of members of the "inner sect" of the TFP and of other such sects lead by Plínio.

With respect to Átila Sinke Guimarães's personal "burning-bush-Pliniolatry", published in 1998, and recently published on TIA (https://www.cathinfo.com/sspx-resistance-news/warning-against-tia-de-oliveira-from-a-priest-who-knows-the-group-52583/msg659773/#msg659773) again, Orlando Fedeli explained:
montfort.org.br (http://www.montfort.org.br/bra/cadernos/religiao/pco-i/)


Here my translation (my mother tongue is neither Portuguese nor English):
Great research on your part and insight from Fedeli.
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Cera on August 14, 2019, 06:06:09 PM
These words of Átila Sinke Guimarães make the fanatical pride of the followers of Plínio patent. The burning bush is a figure of the incarnation of the Word, of the presence of the light of God in the bosom of Our Lady. It's a figure of the hypostatic union: the Word of God incarnate in Jesus Christ. It's a figure of the Church, humanly weak like the bush, which is being consumed by the burning of love to God, in history, while God speaks through it. For the fanatics of the TFP and of the Arautos, God would be more present in Plínio than in the burning bush. Hence, God would be more present in Plínio than in Christ – God and man; more than in Maria Most Holy; more than in the Church. In Plínio, there would be a unique presence of God.


Thank you Struthio for posting this.
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Alan on August 16, 2019, 09:28:50 AM
These words of Átila Sinke Guimarães make the fanatical pride of the followers of Plínio patent. The burning bush is a figure of the incarnation of the Word, of the presence of the light of God in the bosom of Our Lady. It's a figure of the hypostatic union: the Word of God incarnate in Jesus Christ. It's a figure of the Church, humanly weak like the bush, which is being consumed by the burning of love to God, in history, while God speaks through it. For the fanatics of the TFP and of the Arautos, God would be more present in Plínio than in the burning bush. Hence, God would be more present in Plínio than in Christ – God and man; more than in Maria Most Holy; more than in the Church. In Plínio, there would be a unique presence of God.

Cera must have had very bad personal experience with the TFP / TIA, otherwise how could you explain her repeated and biased attacks on the TFP/ TIA?

Every faithful Catholic knows the TFP / TIA doesn't deserve the label "anti-Catholic", how much good they have done. Many famous faithful Catholics are their allies -- Bishop Schneider, Prof Roberto de Mattei, Michael Voris, J Henry Westen, etc.

I never detected any fanatical pride in TFP / TIA's published materials or videos. What did Cera base when she accused them of fanatical pride??  Or did Cera get treated badly (which she interpreted as "fanatical pride") when she encountered TFP members?

You just should not attack the whole organisation when only some members did wrong.
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Ladislaus on August 16, 2019, 09:44:28 AM


Cera must have had very bad personal experience with the TFP / TIA, otherwise how could you explain her repeated and biased attacks on the TFP/ TIA?

Every faithful Catholic knows the TFP / TIA doesn't deserve the label "anti-Catholic", how much good they have done. Many famous faithful Catholics are their allies -- Bishop Schneider, Prof Roberto de Mattei, Michael Voris, J Henry Westen, etc.

I never detected any fanatical pride in TFP / TIA's published materials or videos. What did Cera base when she accused them of fanatical pride??  Or did Cera get treated badly (which she interpreted as "fanatical pride") when she encountered TFP members?

Indeed.  I have called Cera out to explain her history with the group and give us some insight why she despises them so much, but she has refused.  She clearly has an agenda.  It would be one thing to merely have a negative opinion of the group.  You would make a post or two and then move along to other subjects.  But Cera seems absolutely obsessed with attacking TFP / TIA.  I have known over the years quite a few members of the American TFP, and they have all been fine, devoted, dedicated Catholics, and they have never given me the impression of any cult-like devotion to Plinio or his mother.
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Struthio on August 16, 2019, 09:51:52 AM
You [Cera] just should not attack the whole organisation when only some members did wrong.

You, Alan, should ask Átila Sinke Guimarães to remove his Pliniolatry from the TIA website and publish a retraction.

Why do you worry about Cera and not about Átila and TIA?

Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Francisco on August 16, 2019, 10:29:07 AM
Indeed.  I have called Cera out to explain her history with the group and give us some insight why she despises them so much, but she has refused.  She clearly has an agenda.  It would be one thing to merely have a negative opinion of the group.  You would make a post or two and then move along to other subjects.  But Cera seems absolutely obsessed with attacking TFP / TIA.  I have known over the years quite a few members of the American TFP, and they have all been fine, devoted, dedicated Catholics, and they have never given me the impression of any cult-like devotion to Plinio or his mother.
There was/is a man called F.John Loughnan, a former SSPXer, who would rant incessantly like this on the Net against Abp Lefebvre and the SSPX. Lefebvre himself would carry relics of his mother.
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Cera on August 16, 2019, 07:20:07 PM
You just should not attack the whole organisation when only some members did wrong.
Hi Alan,
You are correct; no one should attack an organization when only one member of that organization did something wrong. It's quite different when the FOUNDER of an organization is a heretic who only pretends to be a Catholic.

You are a newbie and might not understand that what is being discussed is that Atiila G., the FOUNDER of the so-called "Tradition in Action," has made an outlandish heretical statement on his own website in his own words.

He said God is less important than the founder of TIA's parent organization TFP.
Specifically:
    The great Moses with his burning bush on the top of Sinai does not make me jealous. For if he were there with God for 40 days, I have been with Dr. Plinio for 33 years. And in this relationship I see, perhaps, more of the divine presence than he before the sacred bush. And I guard the hope that I still may win the dispute with this Prophet when I shall pass from this exile to the Fatherland
.


https://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/Internet_Files/F142_Defense_Eng.pdf
It was on page 36 of the document; it is now on page 37.

The defenders of the heretic have refused to respond to the FACTS and have only engaged in repeated name-calling and personal attacks.
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Ladislaus on August 16, 2019, 07:29:51 PM
He said God is less important than the founder of TIA's parent organization TFP.
Specifically:
    The great Moses with his burning bush on the top of Sinai does not make me jealous. For if he were there with God for 40 days, I have been with Dr. Plinio for 33 years. And in this relationship I see, perhaps, more of the divine presence than he before the sacred bush. And I guard the hope that I still may win the dispute with this Prophet when I shall pass from this exile to the Fatherland
.

Is English your first language, Cera?  You do realize that this does not say what you slanderously claim, don't you?

What he's saying is that he may have had a greater experience of God in 33 years with Plinio than Moses did in 40 days by the burning bush.  He's contrasting 33 years with 40 days, and a relationship with a burning bush.

Poetic excess?  Undoubtedly.  But the heresy of claiming that Plinio > God?  Slander on your part.  He says that nowhere in the text you cite.  If I had spent 33 years with a great saint, like St. John Vianney, nay, even a year with such as he, I might say the same thing, that I got more out of it in terms of getting to know God than Moses did from the burning bush.  And I probably would not be wrong.

I'm starting to wonder if Atila and Cera did not date many years ago and Atila dumped her.
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Cera on August 16, 2019, 07:39:17 PM
What he's saying is that he may have had a greater experience of God in 33 years with Plinio than Moses did in 40 days by the burning bush.  He's contrasting 33 years with 40 days, and a relationship with a burning bush.
Evidently neither you nor Atila read the Bible. Moses did not spend 40 days with Almighty God.
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: trad123 on August 16, 2019, 08:36:30 PM
Evidently neither you nor Atila read the Bible. Moses did not spend 40 days with Almighty God.

I think you mean to say Moses wasn't in the presence of the burning bush, specifically, for 40 days.


Exodus 24

http://drbo.org/chapter/02024.htm

Quote
[12] And the Lord said to Moses: Come up to me into the mount, and be there: and I will give thee tables of stone, and the law, and the commandments which I have written: that thou mayst teach them. [13] Moses rose up, and his minister Josue: and Moses going up into the mount of God, [14] Said to the ancients: Wait ye here till we return to you. You have Aaron and Hur with you: if any question shall arise, you shall refer it to them. [15] And when Moses was gone up, a cloud covered the mount.[16] And the glory of the Lord dwelt upon Sinai, covering it with a cloud six days: and the seventh day he called him out of the midst of the cloud. [17] And the sight of the glory of the Lord was like a burning fire upon the top of the mount, in the eyes of the children of Israel. [18] And Moses, entering into the midst of the cloud, went up into the mountain: and he was there forty days, and forty nights.


St. Cyrpian, Treatise 12, Third Book

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/050712c.htm

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101. That the Holy Spirit has frequently appeared in fire

In Exodus: "And the whole of Mount Sinai smoked, because God had come down upon it in fire." Also in the Acts of the Apostles"And suddenly there was made a sound from heaven, as if a vehement blast were borne along, and it filled the whole of that place in which they were sitting. And there appeared to them cloven tongues as if of fire, which also settled upon each of them; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost." Also in the sacrifices, whatsoever God accounted accepted, fire descended from heaven, which consumed what was sacrificed. In Exodus: "The angel of the Lord appeared in a flame of fire from the bush."


St. Hilary of Poitiers, On the Trinity (Book V)

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/330205.htm

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23.

(. . .)

Was it not God Who came down into the Mount? Or was it, perhaps, only by a fiction or an adoption, and not by right of nature, that He, Who did all this, bore the name of God? Mark the blare of the trumpets, the flashing of the torches, the clouds of smoke, as from a furnace, rolling over the mountain, the terror of conscious impotence on the part of man in the presence of God, the confession of the people, when they prayed Moses to be their spokesman, that at the voice of God they would die. Is He, in your judgment, not true God, when simple dread lest He should speak filled Israel with the fear of death? He Whose voice could not be borne by human weakness? In your eyes is He not God, because He addressed you through the weak faculties of a man, that you might hear, and live ? Moses entered the Mount; in forty days and nights he gained the knowledge of the mysteries of heaven, and set it all in order according to the vision of the truth which was revealed to him there. From intercourse with God, Who spoke with him, he received the reflected splendour of that glory on which none may gaze? His corruptible countenance was transfigured into the likeness of the unapproachable light of Him, with Whom he was dwelling. Of this God he bears witness, of this God he speaks; he summons the angels of God to come and worship Him amid the gladness of the Gentiles, and prays that the blessings which please Him may descend upon the head of Joseph. In face of such evidence as this, dare any man say that He has nothing but the name of God, and deny His true Divinity?
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Viva Cristo Rey on August 16, 2019, 08:47:00 PM
Anymore most Groups are dangerous.  Novus ordo is a Masonic occult.   
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Struthio on August 16, 2019, 10:19:24 PM
...
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Incredulous on August 17, 2019, 09:32:51 AM
Anymore most Groups are dangerous.  Novus ordo is a Masonic occult.  

The SSPX fits the definition of a cult, especially now.

They seek prelature with newChurch. The only other group to do this is the mega, jew controlled cult known as Opus dei.

Cera pounds the drum about Dr. Plineo being a corrupt founder, but she purposely ignores the SSPX's founder's heretical statement.
"The doctrine of the Church also recognizes implicit baptism of desire.  This consists in doing the will of God. God knows all men and He knows that amongst Protestants, Muslims, Buddhists and in the whole of humanity there are men of good will. They receive the grace of baptism without knowing it, but in an effective way. In this way they become part of the Church."

The SSPX believes in implicit baptisms, or Rahner's heretical "Universal Salvation", as elucidated in +ABL's book,
"Open Letter to Confused Catholics".

I'm hopeful, that in reality, +ABL did not write this.
That the Menzingen brotherhood edited +ABL's book, inserting the heresy into that paragraph.

Bottom-line, this SSPX profile is that of a fake traditional Catholic cult.
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Cera on August 17, 2019, 01:23:15 PM
I think you mean to say Moses wasn't in the presence of the burning bush, specifically, for 40 days.
You and Atila do not know the Bible and have accidentally conflated two different events.
The burning bush is in Exodus 3.
The cloud into which Moses was taken is in Exodus 24.

Exodus 3
1] Now Moses fed the sheep of Jethro his father in law, the priest of Madian: and he drove the flock to the inner parts of the desert, and came to the mountain of God, Horeb. [2] And the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he saw that the bush was on fire and was not burnt. [3] And Moses said: I will go and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt. [4] And when the Lord saw that he went forward to see, he called to him out of the midst of the bush, and said: Moses, Moses. And he answered: Here I am. [5] And he said: Come not nigh hither, put off the shoes from thy feet: for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground.




Exodus 24
[1] And he said to Moses: Come up to the Lord, thou, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abiu, and seventy of the ancients of Israel, and you shall adore afar off. [2] And Moses alone shall come up to the Lord, but they shall not come nigh; neither shall the people come up with him. [3] So Moses came and told the people all the words of the Lord, and all the judgments: and all the people answered with one voice: We will do all the words of the Lord, which he hath spoken. [4] And Moses wrote all the words of the Lord: and rising in the morning he built an altar at the foot of the mount, and twelve titles according to the twelve tribes of Israel. [5] And he sent young men of the children of Israel, and they offered holocausts, and sacrificed pacific victims of calves to the Lord.

[6] Then Moses took half of the blood, and put it into bowls: and the rest he poured upon the altar. [7] And taking the book of the covenant, he read it in the hearing of the people: and they said: All things that the Lord hath spoken we will do, we will be obedient. [8] And he took the blood and sprinkled it upon the people, and he said: This is the blood of the covenant which the Lord hath made with you concerning all these words. [9] Then Moses and Aaron, Nadab and Abiu, and seventy of the ancients of Israel went up: [10] And they saw the God of Israel: and under his feet as it were a work of sapphire stone, and as the heaven, when clear.

[11] Neither did he lay his hand upon those of the children of Israel, that retired afar off, and they saw God, and they did eat and drink. [12] And the Lord said to Moses: Come up to me into the mount, and be there: and I will give thee tables of stone, and the law, and the commandments which I have written: that thou mayst teach them. [13] Moses rose up, and his minister Josue: and Moses going up into the mount of God, [14] Said to the ancients: Wait ye here till we return to you. You have Aaron and Hur with you: if any question shall arise, you shall refer it to them. [15] And when Moses was gone up, a cloud covered the mount.

[16] And the glory of the Lord dwelt upon Sinai, covering it with a cloud six days: and the seventh day he called him out of the midst of the cloud. [17] And the sight of the glory of the Lord was like a burning fire upon the top of the mount, in the eyes of the children of Israel. [18] And Moses, entering into the midst of the cloud, went up into the mountain: and he was there forty days, and forty nights.
[Exodus 24:1-18]

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The fact remains that Atila states clearly that Almighty God is of less importance than Plinio O.

Given the choice, AND HE WAS NOT, he states that he would rather spend 33 years with Plinio O. than 40 days with Almighty God.

Please explain to me how this blatant worship of a human being is not an affront to the First Commandment and also heretical.
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Cera on August 17, 2019, 01:27:05 PM

Cera pounds the drum about Dr. Plineo being a corrupt founder, but she purposely ignores the SSPX's founder's heretical statement.
You have created a false dichotomy: either SSPX is good and TIA is bad, or visa versa.
You have excluded a third possibility; that both groups have problems.
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: trad123 on August 17, 2019, 03:34:18 PM
You and Atila do not know the Bible and have accidentally conflated two different events.

You specifically stated that "Moses did not spend 40 days with Almighty God", that is all that I was responding to.
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Ladislaus on August 17, 2019, 03:50:32 PM
Pathetic distraction.  Whether the bush was or was not still burning the entire time is a matter for speculation ... a detail which entirely misses the point.
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Cera on August 17, 2019, 03:54:18 PM
. a detail which entirely misses the point.
The point is that Atila G., the founder of TIA is a heretic who publicly stated:
The great Moses with his burning bush on the top of Sinai does not make me jealous. For if he were there with God for 40 days, I have been with Dr. Plinio for 33 years. And in this relationship I see, perhaps, more of the divine presence than he before the sacred bush.
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Pax Vobis on August 17, 2019, 07:01:24 PM
Cera, you’re just plain wrong.  You falsely and maliciously interpret Atila’s quote.  You’re the one who doesn’t know the Old Testament.  
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Cera on August 18, 2019, 09:03:18 PM
Cera, you’re just plain wrong.  You falsely and maliciously interpret Atila’s quote.  You’re the one who doesn’t know the Old Testament.  
Please explain to me how this is not heresy:
"The great Moses with his burning bush on the top of Sinai does not make me jealous. For if he were there with God for 40 days, I have been with Dr. Plinio for 33 years. And in this relationship I see, perhaps, more of the divine presence than he before the sacred bush."
 
 https://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/Internet_Files/F142_Defense_Eng.pdf (https://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/Internet_Files/F142_Defense_Eng.pdf)
 p 36
now changed to p. 37
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Pax Vobis on August 19, 2019, 07:30:47 AM
A reasonable explanation was already provided by Ladislaus regarding this quote.  Being that we are Catholics, we are REQUIRED by CHARITY to give our neighbor the benefit of the doubt.  In this case, we MUST assume that Atila was speaking with some hyperbole and using dramatic language to make a point.  You act as if Atila was some expert theologian who was teaching seminarians heresy.  Total overreaction by you. 
.
You keep asking people to "explain this quote".  It's not my job to explain it because it's not my quote.  And it's not yours either.  Anyone can take a few sentences out of context and make them appear crazy.  If you want to know the truth, you should contact Atila and ask him to explain the quote.  He's still alive, you know?  Give the man an attempt to explain himself before you carry on a witch hunt with the only basis being YOUR interpretation of what HE meant.  If you don't attempt to get his side of the story, all the while you are internet-shaming him for heresy and blasphemy, you are practicing a level of uncharity and hate that is scandalous and pathetic.
.
If you want to know the truth, go to the source; get both sides of the story.  If you don't care about the truth, then carry on as you are.  Most people on this site know you're being ridiculous.
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Cera on August 19, 2019, 05:16:58 PM
A reasonable explanation was already provided by Ladislaus regarding this quote.
No, Lad continued to make Plinio as God's equal by saying Atila was simply comparing 40 days to 33 years.
Are you good with Plinio as God's equal?
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Cera on August 19, 2019, 05:18:25 PM
Anyone can take a few sentences out of context and make them appear crazy.  
I gave the link with the entire quote in context, which exposed Atila as even crazier.
Title: Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
Post by: Cera on August 19, 2019, 05:28:07 PM
A reasonable explanation was already provided by Ladislaus regarding this quote.  Being that we are Catholics, we are REQUIRED by CHARITY to give our neighbor the benefit of the doubt.
I'm delighted that you brought up charity. We are called to speak the truth with love, which I have done. I present credible documents and do not engage in personal attacks.

TIA/TFP supporters, on the other hand, engage in childish name-calling and other personal attacks; they are the ones who lack charity.

Let me use an example. If you knew a young man who was getting involved in the so-called "gay" movement, how does CHARITY guide you to respond? To say nothing for fear of offending him? Or rather, does charity call you to speak the truth with love (even though you know full well you will be attacked as a "hater")?

The analogy is this. If you knew a young man who was getting involved in the so-called "Catholic" TIA/TFP movement, how does CHARITY guide you to respond? To say nothing for fear of offending him? Or rather, does charity call you to speak the truth with love (even though you know full well you will be attacked as a "hater")?


For both the answer is the same; we are called to speak the truth with love out of CHARITY.