Author Topic: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group (Read 34134 times)

Pax Vobis · « **Reply #55 on:** July 13, 2019, 04:02:28 PM »

Quote

TFP was condemned by their local Bishop as being an "anti-Catholic, anti-clerical heretical sect."
As for TIA, one only has to read their unfounded attacks on Blessed Cardinal Newman, Archbishop Lefebrve, Bishop Travez and numerous good, traditional Catholic priests to see that they are indeed anti-clerical.

TFP was condemned long ago; TIA has not been. Yet you lump them both together. Your lack of distinguishing is the problem. The "black and white" thinking is that TFP is condemned, ergo TIA is also. This is illogical.

Pax Vobis · « **Reply #56 on:** July 13, 2019, 04:03:48 PM »

Quote

Bp. Fellay isn't the founder of the SSPX, so I don't see the correlation.

Obviously.

Struthio · « **Reply #57 on:** July 13, 2019, 04:06:00 PM »

Quote from: Pax Vobis on July 13, 2019, 04:02:28 PM

TFP was condemned long ago; TIA has not been. Yet you lump them both together. Your lack of distinguishing is the problem. The "black and white" thinking is that TFP is condemned, ergo TIA is also. This is illogical.

It is not illogical. You are illogical. Átila G. didn't care about any condemnation. Therefore the condemnations fall on him.

Croixalist · « **Reply #58 on:** July 13, 2019, 11:47:25 PM »

Quote from: Pax Vobis on July 13, 2019, 04:02:28 PM

TFP was condemned long ago; TIA has not been. Yet you lump them both together. Your lack of distinguishing is the problem. The "black and white" thinking is that TFP is condemned, ergo TIA is also. This is illogical.

It can hardly be avoided. TIA is a big promoter of Mr. Correa and by their words and deeds claim to be operating under the true spirit of the original TFP as he founded it. This is all well and good for the most part seeing as how solid Plinio's writing tends to be, though I am no expert. I thought TIA was playing it pretty smart by managing to avoid getting directly involved in an open dispute with the SSPX, because in my opinion there's still a risk of throwing out the good with the bad. Many here, including Matthew have been burned severely by some of the worst elements within the Society, but I know there is still plenty of good priests and Masses to be had. To many for me to write off at any rate.

Unfortunately now, TIA has decided to engage on a very haphazard and anonymously sourced campaign against SSPX, Fr. Purdy and especially Jade Liboro all in protest on behalf of the TFP. My own personal opinion is that TFP, at least the USA branch, has gone on to become more of a Novus Ordo-aligned lay organization and has discarded the strange Plinio devotion that was referenced early on. If the Brazilian branch thought the events at Quito was as egregious as Mr. Guimaraes thinks it was, you'd never know it because they haven't thought it important enough to speak out. Clearly, Atila wants to chart a different course for the TFP than the actual TFP have decided on. It's not that we came up with this association all by ourselves, Atila is deliberately holding on to it. He probably shouldn't, because the more he speaks as an expert on all things TFP, the more he reveals.

We do know without a doubt that there was a segment of Brazilian TFP members who decided to call themselves slaves of Plinio or the slightly less offensive but still disordered Slaves of Our Lady through the hands of Plinio. I don't know how large the faction was and now that I'm looking over it again, I can't say Atila was definitely one of them, but he sure did spend a lot of time writing to defend such an action. There was that one really strange offshoot that took things to an idolatrous level, but that doesn't necessarily mean that was a true reflection of TFP Brazil. Nevertheless, it may serve as an indication that there was something off about the original group.

One more thing that bugs me about Atila's inside sources regarding the recent Quito affair is that I can't imagine anyone offering the sort of information he claims to have received unless his contact was an actual nun (or nuns) within the convent itself. If true, this would in theory be a major departure for what Mother Mariana envisioned for the sisters, as would be having a group of laymen enter the convent in order to carry the statue in the first place. It may also indicate a real "La Capitana" with a mouth to his ear. If that sounds extreme, Atila's actions warrant the speculation.

And then we have the hypocritical attack on Archbishop Lefebvre's character. I say hypocritical because of the fact the TFP and Plinio have also been the targets of certain one-off "eyewitnesses" who virtually disappear never to be seen or heard from again. TIA really ought to know better than to give space to something like this. The very idea that they would deliberately seek out this course of action is probably the single biggest indicator to me that not all is as it seems over there and why I am now apt to reconsider the previous testimonies and the reluctance of the good Archbishop to associate himself with Plinio in the first place.

Cera · « **Reply #59 on:** July 14, 2019, 06:27:49 PM »

Quote from: Pax Vobis on July 13, 2019, 04:02:28 PM

TFP was condemned long ago; TIA has not been. Yet you lump them both together. Your lack of distinguishing is the problem. The "black and white" thinking is that TFP is condemned, ergo TIA is also. This is illogical.

It only appears to be illogical if you missed this post:

We are well aware of the story told by TIA of their claimed separation from TFP. We have read the docuмents presented by Atila to support this claim.
https://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/Internet_Files/F142_Defense_Eng.pdf

Problem One:
Why did Atila fight so hard to remain attached to TFP?
Plinio Correa de Oliveira’s group, TFP, was condemned by the Catholic Church in Brazil and Venezuala.
       "In its 23rd General Assembly, April 10 to 19, 1985, the Bishops approved in plenary session a notice regarding the TFP. It therefore has all the official character of an Assembly of the Bishops of Brazil in Conference, and not simply a press release. The notice reads as follows: "Its esoteric character, religious fanaticism, the cult given to the personality of its founder and head, the abusive use of the name of Most Holy Mary, according to circulated information, cannot in any way merit the approval of the Church. "We lament the difficulties flowing from a civil society which presents itself as a Catholic religious entity, without a tie to the legitimate pastors.
        "This being the case, the Bishops of Brazil exhort Catholics not to enroll in the TFP, and not to collaborate with it.
        "The above stated was signed by +Dom Raymundo Damasceno Asas, Secretary-General of the Conference on National Bishops of Brazil on April 23, 1997."
        Immaculate Heart Messenger, ed. Father Robert J. Fox. January - March 1998 edition p. 29.

       In 1984 the local T.F.P. branch was outlawed in Venezuela, accused by a special parliamentary commission of being a "cult ... which warps the minds of young people, turns its members into fanatics and brainwashes them".
        Osservatore Romano, July 7, 1985, p. 12, n. 408, weekly Spanish edition quoted in Tradizione Famiglia Proprietà: Associazione cattolica o sètta millenarista?, Rimini 1996, frontispiece
        http://www.unitypublishing.com/Apparitions/TFP-AmericaNeedsFatima.htm

   Plinio Correa de Oliveira’s group, TFP, was condemned by the civil authorities in Brazil. This was reported by investigator Thomas Case in Fidelity, the monthly organ of the highly conservative Ultra-Montanists in its May 1989 issue.
https://ephesians511blog.com/2013/09/28/america-needs-fatima-a-cult-using-the-fatima-name/

        TFP had been repeatedly accused by the Brazilian authorities of “inducement to flight, reckless transfer, and concealment of minors”–and this despite TFP’s own slavish devotion to the military regime.
        Young men were alleged to have been deceitfully recruited by TFP, to be trained in their academies as “warrior monks” for the cause.
        According to the Brazilian government, TFP sought to obtain legal guardianship over the minor children of parents dedicated to TFP and then turned their sons against both them and the mainstream church, regarded by TFP loyalists as an institutional fraud.

Problem Two:
Why did TIA wait over 20 years to post the purported letter from TFP? It was supposedly written in 1997, but not made available to the public until after 2017.

TIA’s story is:
“In January 2017, TIA hosted an Event (sic) celebrating the publishing in English of the 11-volume Collection Eli. Eli Lamma Sabacthani? by Atila Sinke Guimarães. . .”

At that event, those present raised questions regarding “the expulsion of Atila from the TFP” and “insisted that a translation of it to English should be available to the public.”

In response to those questions, Marian Horvat began to translate the supposed docuмent from Portuguese to English.

Problem Three:
For a letter purportedly from a hostile president of the TFP organization from which Atila is, supposedly being cut off, it is surprisingly full of praise for Atila:

This is from:
“The Letter of the President of the TFP to Atila Sinke Guimarães, November 20, 1997
. . . Very dear Mr. Atila, because of your elevation of sights, your gifts of intelligence, your energy and, above all, the many graces that Our Lady has poured over you, you have a great role to carry out in the Counter-Revolution and in the TFP. . . I take leave with inalterable esteem.”

Thats. Just. Odd.

CathInfo.com

Author Topic: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group (Read 34134 times)

Pax Vobis

Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group

Pax Vobis

Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group

Struthio

Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group

Croixalist

Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group

Cera

Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group