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Author Topic: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group  (Read 14509 times)

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Offline Cera

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Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
« Reply #150 on: August 16, 2019, 07:39:17 PM »
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  • What he's saying is that he may have had a greater experience of God in 33 years with Plinio than Moses did in 40 days by the burning bush.  He's contrasting 33 years with 40 days, and a relationship with a burning bush.
    Evidently neither you nor Atila read the Bible. Moses did not spend 40 days with Almighty God.
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    Offline trad123

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    Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
    « Reply #151 on: August 16, 2019, 08:36:30 PM »
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  • Evidently neither you nor Atila read the Bible. Moses did not spend 40 days with Almighty God.

    I think you mean to say Moses wasn't in the presence of the burning bush, specifically, for 40 days.


    Exodus 24

    http://drbo.org/chapter/02024.htm

    Quote
    [12] And the Lord said to Moses: Come up to me into the mount, and be there: and I will give thee tables of stone, and the law, and the commandments which I have written: that thou mayst teach them. [13] Moses rose up, and his minister Josue: and Moses going up into the mount of God, [14] Said to the ancients: Wait ye here till we return to you. You have Aaron and Hur with you: if any question shall arise, you shall refer it to them. [15] And when Moses was gone up, a cloud covered the mount.[16] And the glory of the Lord dwelt upon Sinai, covering it with a cloud six days: and the seventh day he called him out of the midst of the cloud. [17] And the sight of the glory of the Lord was like a burning fire upon the top of the mount, in the eyes of the children of Israel. [18] And Moses, entering into the midst of the cloud, went up into the mountain: and he was there forty days, and forty nights.


    St. Cyrpian, Treatise 12, Third Book

    http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/050712c.htm

    Quote
    101. That the Holy Spirit has frequently appeared in fire

    In Exodus: "And the whole of Mount Sinai smoked, because God had come down upon it in fire." Also in the Acts of the Apostles"And suddenly there was made a sound from heaven, as if a vehement blast were borne along, and it filled the whole of that place in which they were sitting. And there appeared to them cloven tongues as if of fire, which also settled upon each of them; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost." Also in the sacrifices, whatsoever God accounted accepted, fire descended from heaven, which consumed what was sacrificed. In Exodus: "The angel of the Lord appeared in a flame of fire from the bush."


    St. Hilary of Poitiers, On the Trinity (Book V)

    http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/330205.htm

    Quote
    23.

    (. . .)

    Was it not God Who came down into the Mount? Or was it, perhaps, only by a fiction or an adoption, and not by right of nature, that He, Who did all this, bore the name of God? Mark the blare of the trumpets, the flashing of the torches, the clouds of smoke, as from a furnace, rolling over the mountain, the terror of conscious impotence on the part of man in the presence of God, the confession of the people, when they prayed Moses to be their spokesman, that at the voice of God they would die. Is He, in your judgment, not true God, when simple dread lest He should speak filled Israel with the fear of death? He Whose voice could not be borne by human weakness? In your eyes is He not God, because He addressed you through the weak faculties of a man, that you might hear, and live ? Moses entered the Mount; in forty days and nights he gained the knowledge of the mysteries of heaven, and set it all in order according to the vision of the truth which was revealed to him there. From intercourse with God, Who spoke with him, he received the reflected splendour of that glory on which none may gaze? His corruptible countenance was transfigured into the likeness of the unapproachable light of Him, with Whom he was dwelling. Of this God he bears witness, of this God he speaks; he summons the angels of God to come and worship Him amid the gladness of the Gentiles, and prays that the blessings which please Him may descend upon the head of Joseph. In face of such evidence as this, dare any man say that He has nothing but the name of God, and deny His true Divinity?
    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.


    Online Viva Cristo Rey

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    Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
    « Reply #152 on: August 16, 2019, 08:47:00 PM »
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  • Anymore most Groups are dangerous.  Novus ordo is a Masonic occult.   
    May God bless you and keep you

    Offline Struthio

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    Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
    « Reply #153 on: August 16, 2019, 10:19:24 PM »
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  • ...
    Men are not bound, or able to read hearts; but when they see that someone is a heretic by his external works, they judge him to be a heretic pure and simple ... Jerome points this out. (St. Robert Bellarmine)

    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
    « Reply #154 on: August 17, 2019, 09:32:51 AM »
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  • Anymore most Groups are dangerous.  Novus ordo is a Masonic occult.  

    The SSPX fits the definition of a cult, especially now.

    They seek prelature with newChurch. The only other group to do this is the mega, Jєω controlled cult known as Opus dei.

    Cera pounds the drum about Dr. Plineo being a corrupt founder, but she purposely ignores the SSPX's founder's heretical statement.
    "The doctrine of the Church also recognizes implicit baptism of desire.  This consists in doing the will of God. God knows all men and He knows that amongst Protestants, Muslims, Buddhists and in the whole of humanity there are men of good will. They receive the grace of baptism without knowing it, but in an effective way. In this way they become part of the Church."

    The SSPX believes in implicit baptisms, or Rahner's heretical "Universal Salvation", as elucidated in +ABL's book,
    "Open Letter to Confused Catholics".

    I'm hopeful, that in reality, +ABL did not write this.
    That the Menzingen brotherhood edited +ABL's book, inserting the heresy into that paragraph.

    Bottom-line, this SSPX profile is that of a fake traditional Catholic cult.
    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi


    Offline Cera

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    Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
    « Reply #155 on: August 17, 2019, 01:23:15 PM »
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  • I think you mean to say Moses wasn't in the presence of the burning bush, specifically, for 40 days.
    You and Atila do not know the Bible and have accidentally conflated two different events.
    The burning bush is in Exodus 3.
    The cloud into which Moses was taken is in Exodus 24.

    Exodus 3
    1] Now Moses fed the sheep of Jethro his father in law, the priest of Madian: and he drove the flock to the inner parts of the desert, and came to the mountain of God, Horeb. [2] And the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he saw that the bush was on fire and was not burnt. [3] And Moses said: I will go and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt. [4] And when the Lord saw that he went forward to see, he called to him out of the midst of the bush, and said: Moses, Moses. And he answered: Here I am. [5] And he said: Come not nigh hither, put off the shoes from thy feet: for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground.




    Exodus 24
    [1] And he said to Moses: Come up to the Lord, thou, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abiu, and seventy of the ancients of Israel, and you shall adore afar off. [2] And Moses alone shall come up to the Lord, but they shall not come nigh; neither shall the people come up with him. [3] So Moses came and told the people all the words of the Lord, and all the judgments: and all the people answered with one voice: We will do all the words of the Lord, which he hath spoken. [4] And Moses wrote all the words of the Lord: and rising in the morning he built an altar at the foot of the mount, and twelve titles according to the twelve tribes of Israel. [5] And he sent young men of the children of Israel, and they offered h0Ɩ0cαųsts, and sacrificed pacific victims of calves to the Lord.

    [6] Then Moses took half of the blood, and put it into bowls: and the rest he poured upon the altar. [7] And taking the book of the covenant, he read it in the hearing of the people: and they said: All things that the Lord hath spoken we will do, we will be obedient. [8] And he took the blood and sprinkled it upon the people, and he said: This is the blood of the covenant which the Lord hath made with you concerning all these words. [9] Then Moses and Aaron, Nadab and Abiu, and seventy of the ancients of Israel went up: [10] And they saw the God of Israel: and under his feet as it were a work of sapphire stone, and as the heaven, when clear.

    [11] Neither did he lay his hand upon those of the children of Israel, that retired afar off, and they saw God, and they did eat and drink. [12] And the Lord said to Moses: Come up to me into the mount, and be there: and I will give thee tables of stone, and the law, and the commandments which I have written: that thou mayst teach them. [13] Moses rose up, and his minister Josue: and Moses going up into the mount of God, [14] Said to the ancients: Wait ye here till we return to you. You have Aaron and Hur with you: if any question shall arise, you shall refer it to them. [15] And when Moses was gone up, a cloud covered the mount.

    [16] And the glory of the Lord dwelt upon Sinai, covering it with a cloud six days: and the seventh day he called him out of the midst of the cloud. [17] And the sight of the glory of the Lord was like a burning fire upon the top of the mount, in the eyes of the children of Israel. [18] And Moses, entering into the midst of the cloud, went up into the mountain: and he was there forty days, and forty nights.
    [Exodus 24:1-18]

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    The fact remains that Atila states clearly that Almighty God is of less importance than Plinio O.

    Given the choice, AND HE WAS NOT, he states that he would rather spend 33 years with Plinio O. than 40 days with Almighty God.

    Please explain to me how this blatant worship of a human being is not an affront to the First Commandment and also heretical.
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    Offline Cera

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    Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
    « Reply #156 on: August 17, 2019, 01:27:05 PM »
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  • Cera pounds the drum about Dr. Plineo being a corrupt founder, but she purposely ignores the SSPX's founder's heretical statement.
    You have created a false dichotomy: either SSPX is good and TIA is bad, or visa versa.
    You have excluded a third possibility; that both groups have problems.
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    Offline trad123

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    Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
    « Reply #157 on: August 17, 2019, 03:34:18 PM »
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  • You and Atila do not know the Bible and have accidentally conflated two different events.

    You specifically stated that "Moses did not spend 40 days with Almighty God", that is all that I was responding to.
    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.


    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
    « Reply #158 on: August 17, 2019, 03:50:32 PM »
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  • Pathetic distraction.  Whether the bush was or was not still burning the entire time is a matter for speculation ... a detail which entirely misses the point.

    Offline Cera

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    Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
    « Reply #159 on: August 17, 2019, 03:54:18 PM »
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  • . a detail which entirely misses the point.
    The point is that Atila G., the founder of TIA is a heretic who publicly stated:
    The great Moses with his burning bush on the top of Sinai does not make me jealous. For if he were there with God for 40 days, I have been with Dr. Plinio for 33 years. And in this relationship I see, perhaps, more of the divine presence than he before the sacred bush.
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
    « Reply #160 on: August 17, 2019, 07:01:24 PM »
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  • Cera, you’re just plain wrong.  You falsely and maliciously interpret Atila’s quote.  You’re the one who doesn’t know the Old Testament.  


    Offline Cera

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    Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
    « Reply #161 on: August 18, 2019, 09:03:18 PM »
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  • Cera, you’re just plain wrong.  You falsely and maliciously interpret Atila’s quote.  You’re the one who doesn’t know the Old Testament.  
    Please explain to me how this is not heresy:
    "The great Moses with his burning bush on the top of Sinai does not make me jealous. For if he were there with God for 40 days, I have been with Dr. Plinio for 33 years. And in this relationship I see, perhaps, more of the divine presence than he before the sacred bush."
     
     https://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/Internet_Files/F142_Defense_Eng.pdf
     p 36
    now changed to p. 37
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
    « Reply #162 on: August 19, 2019, 07:30:47 AM »
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  • A reasonable explanation was already provided by Ladislaus regarding this quote.  Being that we are Catholics, we are REQUIRED by CHARITY to give our neighbor the benefit of the doubt.  In this case, we MUST assume that Atila was speaking with some hyperbole and using dramatic language to make a point.  You act as if Atila was some expert theologian who was teaching seminarians heresy.  Total overreaction by you. 
    .
    You keep asking people to "explain this quote".  It's not my job to explain it because it's not my quote.  And it's not yours either.  Anyone can take a few sentences out of context and make them appear crazy.  If you want to know the truth, you should contact Atila and ask him to explain the quote.  He's still alive, you know?  Give the man an attempt to explain himself before you carry on a witch hunt with the only basis being YOUR interpretation of what HE meant.  If you don't attempt to get his side of the story, all the while you are internet-shaming him for heresy and blasphemy, you are practicing a level of uncharity and hate that is scandalous and pathetic.
    .
    If you want to know the truth, go to the source; get both sides of the story.  If you don't care about the truth, then carry on as you are.  Most people on this site know you're being ridiculous.

    Offline Cera

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    Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
    « Reply #163 on: August 19, 2019, 05:16:58 PM »
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  • A reasonable explanation was already provided by Ladislaus regarding this quote.
    No, Lad continued to make Plinio as God's equal by saying Atila was simply comparing 40 days to 33 years.
    Are you good with Plinio as God's equal?
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    Offline Cera

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    Re: Warning against TIA, de Oliveira from a priest who knows the group
    « Reply #164 on: August 19, 2019, 05:18:25 PM »
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  • Anyone can take a few sentences out of context and make them appear crazy.  
    I gave the link with the entire quote in context, which exposed Atila as even crazier.
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