Quote from: McFiggly

I know that you all have much more experience in religion and you have more at stake than I have (right now, I don't have my own children to worry about), but I can't see how Voris's basic argument is incorrect. I think that the SSPX does show a schismatic mentality. The liberal use of the term "Novus Ordo Catholic" or "NO Catholic" here by SSPX members shows that they consider themselves in some sense separated. And he's right; no matter how bad things got, that would never be legitimate reason to split off from Rome and start one's own faction.

Stubborn calls Voris a "Novus Ordo operative". You mean he's someone working for Rome? How can that be a bad thing unless the Catholic Church is no longer present in Rome?

I agree with J.Paul that MV is a NO operative - whether by accident or on purpose, the result is the same, but fwiw, I think it's on purpose.

I mean there is a crisis in the Church, the main fuel that keeps the crisis burning is in the fact that the compromisers are easily fooled into obedience to the authorities (read:crooks) in Rome at the expense of their own faith.

The NO faith is not the Catholic faith - those who try to be faithful to both will find themselves accepting the one and despising the other, it really is as simple as those words of Our Lord.

Personally, I despise everything about the Novus Ordo - how about you?

Further, this is the reason that after 27 years, the FSSP, whom MV references to promote his cause, have done absolutely zero "from within". In fact, things have gotten only worse in the last 27 years - and as long as the conciliar crooks are in charge, and as long as the FSSP accept V2 and the NO, they have zero hope of promoting change from "within" even if they last another 1000 years.
 
Voris sings a tired old tune, one which has repeatedly proven itself a great success ever since the late 60s. I've said a few times MV's battle cry is a bad rerun of those days and no doubt it will prove a great success yet again to all who allow themselves to be talked into the well worn and well proven modernist tactic of transferring truths from the order of truth-falsehood to the order of authority-obedience, and then use authority as a weapon against truth. That's how they work. Don't fall for it - actually, don't keep falling for it or better to say, stop falling for it already.

 

This is a great post!   :applause:

McFiggly:

Quote

Stubborn calls Voris a "Novus Ordo operative". You mean he's someone working for Rome? How can that be a bad thing unless the Catholic Church is no longer present in Rome?

Well, that's the 64 thousand dollar question, isn't it?  Is the Catholic Church present in Rome today?  Or, stated in another way:  Does that entity, once headquartered in Rome, still exist?  I don't think that it is unreasonable, after the unfolding events of the last 50 years, to ask such a question so starkly.

It is without any doubt NOT unreasonable to ask such a question so starkly.

From his book; Who Shall Ascend?;

The reader is implored to believe that as it is in the spirit of Christian charity that we have been compelled to proclaim the Catholic Church to be the sole and exclusive instrument of salvation for men on earth, it is in the same spirit that we assert the major thesis of this third part, viz., the Conciliar Church is not the Catholic Church, though it is within it, like a fifth column. Hence, no one who maintains membership within it [the conciliar church] can be saved. We say that we speak thus with genuine charity, because true charity seeks to inform one's neighbor what he must do for his salvation, and when he is in danger of losing it.

We need to pray for the confused Catholics of Church Militant tv.

I want to be a better Catholic.  I'm no saint.  

This bickering  back and forth with Voris is not good.   Voris is sinful for instigating and provoking the situation which is in God's hands now.  Pray for Mike voris.  He should be reporting about the Papal visit.

Afterall, yes Vatican II did happen.  If Vatican II is so great then why are we closing down and selling off Catholic Churches, schools, cemeteries and shrines?
Why is their a decline in vocations and mass attendance.  

Vatican II  has lead to immorality, immaturity and mortal sin.  

Archbishop Sheen says it is up to us to make sure the bishops act like bishops, priests like priests, nuns like nun, laity like laity etc.  

.

Post

I know that you all have much more experience in religion and you have more at stake than I have (right now, I don't have my own children to worry about), but I can't see how Voris's basic argument is incorrect. I think that the SSPX does show a schismatic mentality. The liberal use of the term "Novus Ordo Catholic" or "NO Catholic" here by SSPX members shows that they consider themselves in some sense separated. And he's right; no matter how bad things got, that would never be legitimate reason to split off from Rome and start one's own faction.

Stubborn calls Voris a "Novus Ordo operative". You mean he's someone working for Rome? How can that be a bad thing unless the Catholic Church is no longer present in Rome?

Quote from: stgobnait

Now, there hangs the 'Question'?

Sure is the Question.

unless the Catholic Church is no longer present in Rome?

Quote from: hollingsworth

McFiggly:

Quote

Stubborn calls Voris a "Novus Ordo operative". You mean he's someone working for Rome? How can that be a bad thing unless the Catholic Church is no longer present in Rome?

Well, that's the 64 thousand dollar question, isn't it?  Is the Catholic Church present in Rome today?  Or, stated in another way:  Does that entity, once headquartered in Rome, still exist?  I don't think that it is unreasonable, after the unfolding events of the last 50 years, to ask such a question so starkly.

It is without any doubt NOT unreasonable to ask such a question so starkly.

From his book; Who Shall Ascend?;

Quote from: Fr. Wathen

The reader is implored to believe that as it is in the spirit of Christian charity that we have been compelled to proclaim the Catholic Church to be the sole and exclusive instrument of salvation for men on earth, it is in the same spirit that we assert the major thesis of this third part, viz., the Conciliar Church is not the Catholic Church, though it is within it, like a fifth column. Hence, no one who maintains membership within it [the conciliar church] can be saved. We say that we speak thus with genuine charity, because true charity seeks to inform one's neighbor what he must do for his salvation, and when he is in danger of losing it.

I have two observations to add to this discussion.  

I know a priest who took a tour of Catholics from Los Angeles to Rome a few years ago, and he managed to arrange to celebrate a Canonized Traditional Latin Mass in one of the side altars of St. Peter's Basilica.  In order to keep his luggage reasonably compact for the trip, he did not bring vestments, and from previous experience in Rome, the he had expected that the selection of vestments in St. Peter's would be sufficient for his needs.  But when he went to vest for Mass, he found all there was to choose from were RAGS, that is, tattered, dirty, cheap and unacceptable for Mass.  Even if they had been in good repair, they amounted to Mexican sarapes



and things that looked like beach blankets from the hippie 60's.

Due to this and other experiences there, he returned to report that "There is nothing left of Catholic Tradition in Rome."

And that was several years ago.

Just this past Sunday morning, this same priest told the story of how he gave the last rites (Extreme Unction) to a dying man, including the Apostolic Blessing.  He said the man was dying due to an auto accident, and the fact that there had been a Traditional Catholic priest on hand who could give him his final sacrament amounts to a Provided Death.  He told us that if someone asks a parish priest these days for an Apostolic Blessing (which contains a plenary indulgence under requisite conditions), it is far more likely that the Novus Ordo priest won't know what he's talking about, for the "anointing" they do these days usually doesn't even entail confession of sins, let alone an Apostolic Blessing.  

So these are two key points in support of how much the local parish priests have lost of the Catholic faith in our time.  

In point of comparison, a Protestant asking for his minister's blessing might garner his use of olive oil with balsam or frankinsense, similar to the oil that a Catholic priest would use on a physical level, and the minister will not offer absolution, similar to the N.O. priest giving an "anointing."  Therefore, the N.O. priest's efforts for a dying person are arguably closer to the Protestant minister's efforts.

.