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Author Topic: When FSSP Subdeacons Leave  (Read 4259 times)

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Offline SeanJohnson

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When FSSP Subdeacons Leave
« on: November 09, 2023, 11:36:45 AM »
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    • This issue hasn’t come up here in a while, but my understanding is that when an SSPX or sede subdeacon leaves the seminary, for whatever reason, he maintains his obligation to read his daily breviary and remains celibate.

    But, when an FSSP seminarian ordained to the subdiaconate leaves, he simply resumes normal secular life, without any obligation regarding his orders.

    As well as I can recall, the FSSP’s rationale is that, since there is no such thing as a subdeacon in the modern(ist) church, conferring the order of subdeacon is not valid, but simply an historical ceremony conferring nothing (hence, there is no obligation, or need for dispensation from said obligations upon departure).

    Do I have that right?

    If so, it raises a number of questions:

    1) Is “walking through” such a ceremony in such circuмstances a sacrilege (ie., feigning a sacrament)?

    2) Suppose the FSSP was wrong in its rationale, and using an obsolete (yet valid) form would in fact confer the orders, would such an ordination nevertheless be invalidated by defect of intention (ie., How can one who believes the ceremony/ordination he is performing is obsolete nevertheless have the intention to do what the Church does: Ordain)?

    3) Is the FSSP correct to dismiss any concern about retaining subdiaconate obligations for departing seminarians, but for the wrong reasons (ie., they have no remaining obligations, not because there’s no longer any such thing as a subdeacon, but because -supposing the ordaining bishop were himself validly consecrated in the old rite- such ordinations would be invalid for lack of proper intention?

    4) Which is another way of asking, “Is a denial regarding the existence of the order of subdeacon equivalent to an externally manifested intention NOT to do what the Church does?”
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    Offline Texana

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    Re: When FSSP Subdeacons Leave
    « Reply #1 on: November 09, 2023, 12:01:24 PM »
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    • Dear Sean,
    Without a validly consecrated bishop, it is all "feigning a sacrament". "Here's your sign" folks.  It never is a matter of what you think or "believe" about a sacrament that makes it real and valid.  Without a bishop consecrated to the Roman Catholic Latin rite by a true bishop who is in the line of Apostolic Succession by being himself validly
    consecrated to the Roman Catholic Latin rite, all those ceremonies are just that...pretty ceremonies by men pretending to be priests and bishops.

    Fr. Cekada, RIP, stated that some FSSP priests doubted the validity of their ordinations but were afraid to read his work on that subject.  They did not want to know.  Think about that one.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: When FSSP Subdeacons Leave
    « Reply #2 on: November 09, 2023, 12:08:21 PM »
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    • I think the difference is not in the Sacrament itself but the canonical obligations associated with a particular Order.  Heck, in the Novus Ordo, even the Diaconate doesn't have the requirements of celibacy, saying the office, etc.  So it depends on whether you believe the Old Code of Canon Law remains in force.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: When FSSP Subdeacons Leave
    « Reply #3 on: November 09, 2023, 12:09:29 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on November 09, 2023, 11:36:45 AM
    This issue hasn’t come up here in a while, but my understanding is that when an SSPX or sede subdeacon leaves the seminary, for whatever reason, he maintains his obligation to read his daily breviary and remains celibate.

    In the case of the SSPX, according to whom?  SSPX consider the V2 papal claimants to have been legitimate popes, so according to Conciliar Law, they have no such obligations.  SVs of course don't believe that the Conciliar Church, New Code, etc. have any force ... so for a sede, yes, they would consider the old Code to remain in force.
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: When FSSP Subdeacons Leave
    « Reply #4 on: November 09, 2023, 12:26:32 PM »
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    • The part I’m getting hung up on is that the FSSP certainly accepts the validity of the 1983 Code, but there is no provision for such a thing as a subdeacon in that Code.

    Paul VI abolished the minor orders and subdiaconate, and claimed they were all subsistent within ordination to the diaconate (even without any form or matter, or even a mention of them in the new rite for ordination to the diaconate!,!?).

    So there’s firstly the abolition of the order itself, and then the natural and consequent canonical omission to mention any obligations for the subdiaconate.

    So what is the FSSP doing, walking through a ceremony it must logically believe no longer exists (but supposing it somehow did exist, how could the FSSP validly ordain to it, when it believes otherwise, and couldn’t possibly intend, therefore, to do what the Church does)?
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: When FSSP Subdeacons Leave
    « Reply #5 on: November 09, 2023, 12:50:01 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on November 09, 2023, 12:26:32 PM
    The part I’m getting hung up on is that the FSSP certainly accepts the validity of the 1983 Code, but there is no provision for such a thing as a subdeacon in that Code.

    Paul VI abolished the minor orders and subdiaconate, and claimed they were all subsistent within ordination to the diaconate (even without any form or matter, or even a mention of them in the new rite for ordination to the diaconate!,!?).

    So there’s firstly the abolition of the order itself, and then the natural and consequent canonical omission to mention any obligations for the subdiaconate.

    So what is the FSSP doing, walking through a ceremony it must logically believe no longer exists (but supposing it somehow did exist, how could the FSSP validly ordain to it, when it believes otherwise, and couldn’t possibly intend, therefore, to do what the Church does)?

    I suspect there's just some understand that's part of the Indult/Motu arrangement.  NO has abolished a lot of things that Traditional Catholics still do.  Ceremony and the Order still exist and can be conferred, even though there's no canonical provision about what it means.  For the Conciliars, they don't have celibacy or divine office requirements even through the diaconate, so for them they probably don't even understand what the question/problem is.

    I wouldn't characterize it as the ceremony no longer existing, but rather as existing, having its Sacramental effect, but having no Canonical reality or Canonical effect.

    In the context of the Novus Ordo, it becomes a quaint throwback for nostalgia purposes but as having little meaning.  That's because short of performing the consecration at Mass, no orders are required to do anything in the Novus Ordo.  What's the practical impact of the Order of Lector when laymen can read at any time and so can lay women?  What's the practical impact of the Order of Exorcist when you have veritable armies of lay exorcists parading around?  What of the Acolyte, when anyone (male or female) can participate in Sacred Liturgy in the sanctuary, from altar girls to female Eucharistic ministers, etc.?  Novus Ordo eliminated most of the Orders and changed them into "ministries".
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: When FSSP Subdeacons Leave
    « Reply #6 on: November 09, 2023, 12:56:11 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on November 09, 2023, 12:50:01 PM
    I wouldn't characterize it as the ceremony no longer existing, but rather as existing, having its Sacramental effect, but having no Canonical reality or Canonical effect.

    In the context of the Novus Ordo, it becomes a quaint throwback for nostalgia purposes but as having little meaning.  That's because short of performing the consecration at Mass, no orders are required to do anything in the Novus Ordo.  What's the practical impact of the Order of Lector when laymen can read at any time and so can lay women?  What's the practical impact of the Order of Exorcist when you have veritable armies of lay exorcists parading around?  What of the Acolyte, when anyone (male or female) can participate in Sacred Liturgy in the sanctuary, from altar girls to female Eucharistic ministers, etc.?  Novus Ordo eliminated most of the Orders and changed them into "ministries".

    What a strange ape of the Church is this conciliar animal, where Orders have become frivolous (as though Jesus and the Apostles instituted them to no end)!
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    Offline moneil

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    Re: When FSSP Subdeacons Leave
    « Reply #7 on: November 10, 2023, 11:47:03 AM »
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    • There is a fair amount of misinformation in this thread that needs to be corrected, if for no other reason than proper context.


    Quote
    Paul VI abolished the minor orders and subdiaconate

    This is not completely true.  There are four minor orders: porter, lector, exorcist, and acolyte, which for all practical purposes had become merely ceremonial stepping stones to major orders and for several centuries have had no practical function outside of perhaps seminaries and monasteries.  The acolytes would serve Mass but an acolyte isn’t required, any layman could fill that role.  How many traditional chapels have installed lectors and acolytes who assist with weekly Mass?  How many times is a seminarian sent out to perform an exorcism, though he’s been installed as an exorcist?  Pope Paul VI retained the functional minor orders of lector and acolyte but it hasn’t caught on in the U.S. (yet) to have installed lectors and acolyte at the parish level as was there role at one time.  At my former parish (Pullman, WA) we had three older gentleman who were installed as acolytes by our Bishop at the request of the pastor.  We didn’t have a parochial school next door and only one home schooling family who lived 20 miles out, so the acolytes served the daily and funeral Masses and also trained the altar servers.

    Consulting The Catholic Encyclopedia (1917) one reads:

    Quote
    The subdiaconate is the lowest of the sacred or major orders in the Latin Church. It is defined as the power by which one ordained as a subdeacon may carry the chalice with wine to the altar, prepare the necessaries for the Eucharist, and read the Epistles before the people (Ferraris, op. cit., infra No. 40). According to the common opinion of theologians at present, the subdeaconship was not instituted by Christ. Nor are there sufficient grounds for maintaining that it had an Apostolic origin. There is no mention of the subdiaconate in Holy Scripture or in the authentic writings of the Apostolic Fathers. These authorities make reference only to bishops, priests, and deacons.
     ...
    The subdiaconate is most probably, some say certainly not a true sacrament, but a sacramental instituted by the Church. If it cannot be repeated, this is because the Church has so wished, for she could institute a sacramental similar to a sacrament externally without thereby obliging us to hold that it imprints an indelible character on the soul of the recipient. Wernz (op. cit. infra, No. 158) says: “Since ordinations below the deaconship are most probably not true sacraments, but rather sacramentals they do not imprint the true sacramental character, hence if they are conferred validly, they give a power of order instituted solely by human law and circuмscribed by its limits.”
     
    One reply reads:
    Quote
    For the Conciliars, they don't have celibacy or divine office requirements even through the diaconate …

    This is absolutely not true.  When an unmarried man is ordained to the diaconate (permanent or transitory) he makes a vow of celibacy to his bishop.  Transitory deacons recite the full Divine Office, permanent deacons are required to recite at least Lauds and Vespers, though many, most perhaps, recite the full office as their work and family obligations allow.   As these are disciplinary matters a man can be dispensed from the obligations.  An unmarried deacon who chooses to leave diaconal service must be dispensed from his vow of celibacy, it’s not automatic.  A marries deacon who is widowed may not remarry.  In the situation of the FSSP or the ICKSP seminarians either incur a permanent obligation of celibacy and to recite the Divine Office when they are installed at sub-deacons or ordained as deacons (I’m not sure which, but it’s one of the other, the obligation is there).

    We also read in a reply:

    Quote
    In the context of the Novus Ordo, it (the sub-diaconate) becomes a quaint throwback for nostalgia purposes but as having little meaning.  That's because short of performing the consecration at Mass, no orders are required to do anything in the Novus Ordo.

    I’m not sure how it is any different in most cases in the TLM.  Short of a Solemn Mass the priest is typically the only cleric in the sanctuary, everyone else is a layman.


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    Offline obediens

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    Re: When FSSP Subdeacons Leave
    « Reply #8 on: November 10, 2023, 12:10:41 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on November 09, 2023, 12:08:21 PM
    I think the difference is not in the Sacrament itself but the canonical obligations associated with a particular Order.  Heck, in the Novus Ordo, even the Diaconate doesn't have the requirements of celibacy, saying the office, etc.  So it depends on whether you believe the Old Code of Canon Law remains in force.
    The promise of celibacy is certainly there in the interrogation of those to be ordained transitional deacons during the ordination: "Do you resolve to keep forever this commitment to remain celibate as a sign of your dedication to Christ the Lord for the sake of the Kingdom of Heaven, in the service of God and man?"

    The 1983 Code states in Canon 1037: "An unmarried candidate for the permanent diaconate and a candidate for the presbyterate are not to be admitted to the order of diaconate unless they have assumed the obligation of celibacy in the prescribed rite publicly before God and the Church or have made perpetual vows in a religious institute."

    Canon 1087 reads: "Those in sacred orders invalidly attempt marriage." 

    The Novus Ordo does not allow widowed permanent deacons to remarry, unless a very-rarely-granted dispensation is given. They promise to remain celibate, should they be widowed, so before the ordination. 
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    Offline obediens

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    Re: When FSSP Subdeacons Leave
    « Reply #9 on: November 10, 2023, 12:18:40 PM »
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    • To answer the original question, I believe that it is because they consider (according to the 1983 Code) that one enters into the clerical state, with the accompanying obligations of celibacy and reciting the Office, with the reception of the diaconate.

    Can. 266 §1. Through the reception of the diaconate, a person becomes a cleric and is incardinated in the particular church or personal prelature for whose service he has been advanced.

    Can. 276 §2. 3. "priests and deacons aspiring to the presbyterate are obliged to carry out the liturgy of the hours daily according to the proper and approved liturgical books; permanent deacons, however, are to carry out the same to the extent defined by the conference of bishops"

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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: When FSSP Subdeacons Leave
    « Reply #10 on: November 10, 2023, 12:36:19 PM »
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    • Interesting comment from “Joshua” on Fr. Z’s blog, saying that +Bruskewicz used to consider that the ordinations to the subdiaconate for the FSSP were real and bound one to celibacy, but that the FSSP itself said otherwise (and claims Rome sided with the FSSP in some declaration):

    “+Bruskewitz did hold, it is true, to the line that those he was ordaining to the subdiaconate were really clerics and obliged to celibacy (so that is one authority against Fr. Z’s position), but we know that Rome has declared that ordained subdeacons that do not go further need no dispensation from celibacy. Lastly, the FSSP, which ought to be inclined as far as possible to see things traditionally, held against + Bruskewitz that the new canon law did affect them on that point”

    https://wdtprs.com/2009/04/quaeritur-substituting-for-a-subdeacon/
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