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Traditional Catholic Faith => SSPX Resistance News => Topic started by: SeanJohnson on June 22, 2021, 12:18:51 PM

Title: +Vigano Refutes de Mattei!
Post by: SeanJohnson on June 22, 2021, 12:18:51 PM
https://gloria.tv/post/ZyK76s9y9Rm31ye4ydy96MJuh (https://gloria.tv/post/ZyK76s9y9Rm31ye4ydy96MJuh)

De Mattei Attacks: Viganò Turns the Table Around

(https://assistant.gloria.tv/FxK6pqhk7ZiS1AZwTDoBU6KMY/139q18pcicc9ht7a0sqmka4xx11ckqppzdm2blm.webp?scale=256)

Archbishop Carlo Maria Viganò is “astonished” that the famous Catholic historian Roberto de Mattei has deemed it necessary to attack him (https://gloria.tv/post/1sS7KhMnhtZy12ysTsmNZgLdx) by claiming that a "ghost writer" is behind Viganò's 2020-2021 publications.

"There is no ghost writer," Viganò insists, "By the grace of God I am still in full possession of my faculties, I am not manipulated by anyone and I am absolutely determined to continue my apostolic mission for the salvation of souls.”

Viganò confirms that "all my writings, statements and interviews are the result of a maturation of convictions of which I proudly claim full authorship,” calling De Mattei's allegations "totally unfounded," “bold" and "fanciful."

He turns the table around by saying that De Mattei's theory must be “the result of some advisor” and was “composed by a grey official regime obedient to the mainstream narrative, and not by the sharp mind and genuine faith of de Mattei I knew.”

#newsWunsagzumg (https://gloria.tv/hashtag/newsWunsagzumg)


Title: Re: +Vigano Refutes de Mattei!
Post by: SeanJohnson on June 22, 2021, 12:25:39 PM
I don’t know what makes me happier:

The fact that Vigano is so unapologetic, or the fact that he used my tactic (ie., accusing de Mattei of projecting)!

It certainly DOES seem bizarre and unlike Mattei to have written such a thing.

Was it a request from Menzingen?
Title: Re: +Vigano Refutes de Mattei!
Post by: Ladislaus on June 22, 2021, 12:30:07 PM

He turns the table around by saying that De Mattei's theory must be “the result of some advisor” and was “composed by a grey official regime obedient to the mainstream narrative, and not by the sharp mind and genuine faith of de Mattei I knew.”


:laugh1:

With his great intellect apparently is also a great wit.
Title: Re: +Vigano Refutes de Mattei!
Post by: 2Vermont on June 22, 2021, 12:47:34 PM
"There is no ghost writer," Viganò insists, "By the grace of God I am still in full possession of my faculties, I am not manipulated by anyone and I am absolutely determined to continue my apostolic mission for the salvation of souls.”

Given the other discussion the bolded caught my attention. Does Vigano have Ordinary Jurisdiction?
Title: Re: +Vigano Refutes de Mattei!
Post by: Ladislaus on June 22, 2021, 12:49:46 PM
Given the other discussion the bolded caught my attention. Does Vigano have Ordinary Jurisdiction?

I actually think he does ... though not over any territory ... since he remains a Titular Bishop.  Of course, there's the problem of his having been consecrated in the New Rite by Wojtyla.
Title: Re: +Vigano Refutes de Mattei!
Post by: 2Vermont on June 22, 2021, 12:54:08 PM
I actually think he does ... though not over any territory ... since he remains a Titular Bishop.  Of course, there's the problem of his having been consecrated in the New Rite by Wojtyla.
I don't think a Titular Bishop has OJ.
Title: Re: +Vigano Refutes de Mattei!
Post by: Ladislaus on June 22, 2021, 01:16:13 PM
I don't think a Titular Bishop has OJ.

I believe that they do, but the jurisdiction is not territorial.  In other words, he has no actual subjects over which to actually exercise it, but I believe he still has ordinary jurisdiction.
Title: Re: +Vigano Refutes de Mattei!
Post by: SeanJohnson on June 22, 2021, 01:23:07 PM
From the Catholic Encyclopedia under "Auxiliary Bishop:"

"According to the present ecclesiastical discipline (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05030a.htm) no bishop (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02581b.htm) can be consecrated (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04276a.htm) without title to a certain and distinct diocese which he governs either actually or potentially. Actual government requires residence, potential does not. Hence, there are two principal classes of bishops (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02581b.htm), the residential, or diocesan (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05001a.htm) or, local, or ordinary; and the non-residential, or titular. Diocesan bishops (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02581b.htm) have and exercise (de jure) full power of order and jurisdiction (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08567a.htm), in and over the diocese committed to their exclusive care by the pope (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12260a.htm). Titulars, as such, have not, and do not exercise, power of order and jurisdiction (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08567a.htm), in and over their titular sees (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08025a.htm). All actual jurisdiction (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08567a.htm) in titular sees (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08025a.htm) the pope (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12260a.htm) reserves to himself, and exercises through the Sacred Congregation of Propaganda (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12456a.htm). The jurisdiction (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08567a.htm) of a diocesan (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05001a.htm) is ordinary. Should a titular perform a jurisdictional function, he uses delegated jurisdiction (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08567a.htm)."

https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02145b.htm
Title: Re: +Vigano Refutes de Mattei!
Post by: SeanJohnson on June 22, 2021, 01:28:59 PM
Archbishop Vigano's full response to de Mattei:  

https://www.lifesitenews.com/opinion/abp-vigano-about-some-declarations-of-professor-roberto-de-mattei-which-recently-appeared-at-corrispondenza-romana



Abp. Viganò: About some declarations of Professor Roberto de Mattei which recently appeared at ‘Corrispondenza Romana’

'If I have spoken evil, give testimony of the evil; but I have spoken well, why do you strike me?' ~ Jn 18:23
Tue Jun 22, 2021 - 10:52 am EST



(https://assets.lifesitenews.com/images/made/images/remote/https_www.lifesitenews.com/images/local/Archbishop_Carlo_Maria_Vigano_810_500_75_s_c1.jpg)
Archbishop Carlo Maria Viganò at the Rome Life Forum on May 18, 2018.Steve Jalsevac / LifeSiteNews

By Archbishop Carlo Maria Viganò



June 22, 2021 (LifeSiteNews (http://lifesitenews.com/)) – The article The Viganò Case: The Archbishop and His Double, which appeared yesterday at Corrispondenza Romana in both Italian and English, signed by Professor Roberto de Mattei, has been pointed out to me.

I am unable not to express my amazement at the statements that an illustrious Catholic intellectual, hailed as a champion of Tradition and who has not spared the Hierarchy criticism that is at times severe but always carefully considered and just, felt that he had to make in my regard. In reality, it would have been enough to consult me verbally or by letter in order to dispel his suspicions and feel reassured that all of my writings, declarations, and interviews which I have given are the fruit of a maturation of convictions of which I proudly claim full paternity.

The idea that I have a “double” must be the fruit of some adviser to whom Professor de Mattei has improvidently lent his faith, without realizing that by doing so he has exposed himself to the public refutation of completely unfounded allegations, which also sound, if I may be allowed to say so, not very charitable in my regard. I am therefore taking the opportunity afforded by his article to deny his impudent and fanciful theses, reassuring those who have the goodness to read me and listen to me that there is no ghost writer, and that by the grace of God I still have full possession of my faculties, I am not manipulated by anyone, and I am absolutely determined to continue my apostolic mission for the salvation of souls.

In other times, de Mattei would have been proud to be at my side in the common battle for Catholic truth, for the defense of the immutable Magisterium and of the venerable Traditional Liturgy against the assaults of the Modernists. He would have probably also been at my side in denouncing the pandemic fraud and the intrinsic immorality of experimental ναccιnєs produced with fetal material derived from abortions.
His recent interventions – published with his own name or under a pseudonym – have demonstrated, not without heartfelt sorrow, that if there is a “double” it must be sought in the recent writings of the Professor; writings that seem to be composed by a dull regime official who is obedient to the mainstream narrative, and not by the sharp mind and genuine faith of the de Mattei I once knew. Quantum mutatus ab illo.

+ Carlo Maria Viganò, Archbishop
June 22, 2021
S. Paulini, Episcopi et Confessor
Title: Re: +Vigano Refutes de Mattei!
Post by: RomanTheo on June 22, 2021, 01:30:54 PM

DELETE
Title: Re: +Vigano Refutes de Mattei!
Post by: Marion on June 22, 2021, 01:55:11 PM
De Mattei wrote:


Quote
is Archbishop Viganò really the author of the writings of the past year?

and:

Quote
P.S. Archbishop Carlo Maria Viganò has already been informed in private, by several persons, of the existence of this problem, for more than a year now.

The response does not solve the problem of de Mattei and the other persons mentioned. The question now is: is Archbishop Viganò really the author of this new writing?



www.corrispondenzaromana.it (https://www.corrispondenzaromana.it/the-vigano-case-the-archbishop-and-his-double/?utm_source=ActiveCampaign&utm_medium=email&utm_content=The+Vigan%C3%B2+Case%3A+The+Archbishop+and+His+Double&utm_campaign=The+Vigan%C3%B2+Case%3A+The+Archbishop+and+His+Double)
Title: Re: +Vigano Refutes de Mattei!
Post by: SeanJohnson on June 22, 2021, 02:31:12 PM
In other times, de Mattei would have been proud to be at my side in the common battle for Catholic truth, for the defense of the immutable Magisterium and of the venerable Traditional Liturgy against the assaults of the Modernists. He would have probably also been at my side in denouncing the pandemic fraud and the intrinsic immorality of experimental ναccιnєs produced with fetal material derived from abortions.
His recent interventions – published with his own name or under a pseudonym – have demonstrated, not without heartfelt sorrow, that if there is a “double” it must be sought in the recent writings of the Professor; writings that seem to be composed by a dull regime official who is obedient to the mainstream narrative, and not by the sharp mind and genuine faith of the de Mattei I once knew. Quantum mutatus ab illo.

+ Carlo Maria Viganò, Archbishop
June 22, 2021
S. Paulini, Episcopi et Confessor

Some speculative comments -nothing more- upon the two bolded passages:

1) "In other times..."

What is different about de Mattei today, compared to, say, 2012?

Well, if one were to do a Google search of the terms "SSPX.org de Mattei," the results will produce a heavy dose of SSPX-sponsored articles written by de Mattei, but almost none of them from before 2012.

In other words, one does not find much on SSPX websites (or Google generally) evincing the mutual admiration between the SSPX and de Mattei from prior to Bishop Fellay's ʀɛʋօʟutιօn and reorientation of the SSPX, placing it upon a trajectory of "reconciliation" with unconverted Rome.

Is, therefore, the relationship between the SSPX and de Mattei cemented by their mutual desire to bring the SSPX into conciliarism?

And if that is the case, might it shed some light upon de Mattei's aberrant comments regarding the writings and positions of Archbishop Vigano (positions which are nearly identical to Archbishop Lefebvre, but which, precisely because of that similarity, threaten the basis of the SSPX-Mattei relationship: A practical accord with unconverted Rome)?

Maybe; maybe not.


2) "...writings that seem to be composed by a dull regime official who is obedient to the mainstream narrative..."

Who might be the dull regime offficial in question?

Rome's strategy has been to completely ignore +Vigano, even going back to his expose on Cardinal McCarrick in 2018.  Why would Rome suddenly start responding to +Vigano (and through a non-official intermediary like de Mattei)?

I think we must look elsewhere for the "dull regime official" alluded to by +Vigano.

Who, for example, might have an interest in discrediting him?  Whom could he oppose as a rival?  Who might be poised for largescale defections by hearing an illustrious prelate speak like Archbishop Lefebvre used to (particularly when Society faithful have been starved for 10 years by non-combative, branded, diplomatic, non-confrontational sermons)?

To ask the question is to answer it.

As the SSPX dissolves itself into conservative conciliarism and milktoast, conciliatory sermons, the stature of +Vigano increases.  He is drawing an increased respect not just from starved SSPXers, but also from the Resistance (both branches), conservative Novus Ordo Catholics, sedevacantists, and indultarians:

At a time when Francis appears ready to constrict access to the true Mass, and place the SSPX in control via personal prelature of all "traditionalists" (conciliar ones, anyway), the providential emergence of +Vigano threatens to topple the entire enterprise, by having the faithful jump ship to his brand of real "Lefebvreism."

Rome would capture only empty churches, while the SSPX would come into conciliarism with empty hands.

If some will say my speculations are irresponsible, they are certainly less eggregious than Mattei's (which are now proven factually false).  Mine remain at least plausible.

But they remain just speculations, not accusations.

When comments as sudden and aberrational as de Mattei's explode out of nowhere, one looks for causes.

Right or wrong, this is the best I can do to make sense of seeming nonsense.

The SSPX is certainly "obedient to the mainstream narrative" (and not only on abortive ναccιnєs, but also with regard to the "need" for a deal with modernist Rome).
Title: Re: +Vigano Refutes de Mattei!
Post by: B from A on June 22, 2021, 03:47:55 PM
Roberto de Mattei also was not a big champion of +Viganò's excellent "Appeal"  last year:

Quote
The Italian church historian Professor Roberto de Mattei had also made some distancing remarks. Speaking with the Tagespost (https://www.die-tagespost.de/kirche-aktuell/aktuell/historiker-de-mattei-zu-vigano-aufruf-bischoefe-sollen-kompetenz-nicht-ueberschreiten;art4874,208273), he argued that the bishops are leaving their field of expertise – which is that of theology and morality – when making such statements on health matters and politics.

For him, it is understandable when people criticize the interdiction of public Masses and of the administration of the Sacraments during the pandemic. However, he is perplexed when “bishops make statements on the field of health measures taken by government, since this is beyond their field of expertise which is, after all, a theological and moral one.”
de Mattei distances from the Appeal (https://www.lifesitenews.com/blogs/cardinal-mueller-and-bishop-schneider-defend-signing-archbishop-viganos-corona-crisis-appeal)
Title: Re: +Vigano Refutes de Mattei!
Post by: B from A on June 22, 2021, 04:01:07 PM
Quote
Some declassified CIA docuмents revealing that the counterfeit Catholic organisation Tradition, Family, Property, (TFP) has a history of pimping itself to the CIA and the cause of U.S. Liberalism. According to the official biography, the founder of the organisation was formed in his youth primarily by his Great Uncle. But the biographer, the historian Roberto de Mattei, somehow forgot to mention that the Great Uncle in question was a Grand Master of the Grand Orient of Brazil. TFP lobbied the U.S. government (https://www.nationalreview.com/2004/09/note-congress-nro-primary-docuмent/), alongside other leading Neo-Cons, in support of the tyrannical ραƚɾισt Act, and Roberto de Mattei, himself, attended Iraq War planning meetings alongside Donald Rumsfeld in the Pentagon.
TFP-CIA 1975 (https://www.cia.gov/readingroom/docs/CIA-RDP80R01731R002200100027-2.pdf)   TFP-CIA 1986 (https://www.cia.gov/readingroom/docs/CIA-RDP88M00338R000100090017-3.pdf)
(https://media.defense.gov/2004/Apr/28/2001241694/1088/820/0/000071-Y-QLT01-966.jpg)

Secretary Rumsfeld hosts a meeting with Italian Deputy Prime Minister Gianfranco Fini in the Pentagon.  



Quote

Secretary of Defense Donald H. Rumsfeld (center, left) hosts a meeting with Italian Deputy Prime Minister Gianfranco Fini (2nd from right) in the Pentagon on April 27, 2004, to discuss a range of issues relating to the global war on terrorism and the Coalition's efforts to bring order and security to Iraq. Participants in the meeting include (clockwise from the left foreground): Deputy Under Secretary of Defense for Special Plans William Luti, Vice Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Gen. Peter Pace, U.S. Marine Corps, Secretary of Defense Donald H. Rumsfeld, Acting Assistant Secretary of Defense for International Security Affairs Mira Ricardel, Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense for European and NATO Policy Ian Brzezinski, Counselor at the Italian Embassy Aldo Amati, Chief of Staff to the Deputy Prime Minister Proietti-Cosimi, Chief of the Cabinet Counselor Salvator Sfrecola, Italy's Ambassador to the U.S. Sergio Vento; Deputy Prime Minister Gianfranco Fini, and Counselor for International affairs Professor Roberto De Mattei.

source (https://www.defense.gov/observe/photo-gallery/igphoto/2001241694/)
If this is the same Roberto de Mattei, why is he at this meeting?  :confused:
Title: Re: +Vigano Refutes de Mattei!
Post by: B from A on June 22, 2021, 04:14:36 PM

The following is a quote, but the quote box function doesn't seem to work properly for me at the moment: 

"Interesting to see Roberto de Mattei going on the attack (https://www.corrispondenzaromana.it/the-vigano-case-the-archbishop-and-his-double/) against +Vigano for exposing and making a fight against the 'Great Reset'. De Mattei seems to be desperately worried that +Vigano's  anti-Masonic, anti-Liberal, anti-Neo-Con, anti-counterfeit-Catholic texts are influencing a substantial number of Catholics and many other people of good will. 

"There must be a reason why such an esteemed Catholic figure would want to divert attention away from the machinations of the 'Lords of the World'. But we have no idea what that reason might be. After all, de Mattei is:

" 🤡  An esteemed historian who writes an approved biography of the leader of a counterfeit-Catholic sect but neglects to inform his readers that the leader's Great Uncle, the pre-eminent formative influence on the leader's life according to the biography, was a Grand Master of the Grand Orient of Brazil.

" 🤡  A man who sat at the war table in the Pentagon with Donald Rumsfeld and other leading Neo-Con criminals during the second Gulf War."
Title: Re: +Vigano Refutes de Mattei!
Post by: SeanJohnson on June 22, 2021, 06:10:46 PM
Placing de Mattei at a Rumsfeld-Pentagon meeting is a rather staggering revelation.

Why would he be there?

Recalling how Bishop Fellay chaperoned and championed him around America a few years ago; the strange choice of location for the new seminary (financed in part by the Jaidhofer Foundation, which brought us Max Krah); Viganò’s mention of a Deepchurch in the service of a Deepstate; de Mattei distancing himself from Viganò’s “Appeal;” Cardinal Sarah soon also distancing after initially signing; Fr. Frey doing a 180 on vaccines; the expulsion of Williamson for voicing an historical opinion; etc.

Is there a common thread to connect any of these themes?

Why is de Mattei suddenly acting like a controlled man?

Why am I suddenly reminded of the recent thread “Are there Feds at your Trad Chapel?”
Title: Re: +Vigano Refutes de Mattei!
Post by: Shrewd Operator on June 22, 2021, 10:25:39 PM
Sean:

Rome would capture only empty churches, while the SSPX would come into conciliarism with empty hands.


Poetic concepts and imagery.

Thanks Sean.
Title: Re: +Vigano Refutes de Mattei!
Post by: Marion on June 22, 2021, 11:03:29 PM
Placing de Mattei at a Rumsfeld-Pentagon meeting is a rather staggering revelation.

Why would he be there?


Revelation? He was a government advisor on foreign relations. This is well known in Catholic and "Catholic" circles ever since he turned celebrity with his 2010 book. On en.wikipedia you can find this info in the very first version of his article of 2011:

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Roberto_de_Mattei&oldid=416746012

Quote
From February 2002 to May 2006 he held the post of Adviser for International Affairs to the Italian Government.


"An esteemed historian who writes an approved biography of the leader of a counterfeit-Catholic sect but neglects to inform his readers that the leader's Great Uncle, the pre-eminent formative influence on the leader's life according to the biography, was a Grand Master of the Grand Orient of Brazil.

Plinio Corrêa de Oliveira (man-god of the counterfeit-Catholic sects TFP, TIA, etc.) surely was some sort of gnostic/rosicrucian/freemason/you-name-it, but he wasn't Grand Master of the Grand Orient of Brazil. You can find all those freemason Grand Masters named on pt.wikipedia:

https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grande_Oriente_do_Brasil#Hist%C3%B3rico_de_Gr%C3%A3o-Mestres

and probable also somewhere on:

https://www.gob.org.br

Title: Re: +Vigano Refutes de Mattei!
Post by: Marion on June 22, 2021, 11:08:58 PM
Even if you think that Viganò is good and de Mattei bad, that's no reason to dismiss the fact, that Viganò didn't even bother to post a selfie with the letter of de Mattei in his hand. Isn't he interested in calming down rumours? Isn't he interested in calming down fans of his writings, who be may somewhat insecure? Or are these writings not of his?
Title: Re: +Vigano Refutes de Mattei!
Post by: SeanJohnson on June 22, 2021, 11:24:07 PM
Even if you think that Viganò is good and de Mattei bad, that's no reason to dismiss the fact, that Viganò didn't even bother to post a selfie with the letter of de Mattei in his hand. Isn't he interested in calming down rumours? Isn't he interested in calming down fans of his writings, who be may somewhat insecure? Or are these writings not of his?

The gratuitous Mattei nonsense is universally rejected by all trads.

Mattei has only succeeded in discrediting himself, not his target.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahxG3iPeVcU 

(Sorry for the immodesty)
Title: Re: +Vigano Refutes de Mattei!
Post by: Marion on June 22, 2021, 11:28:30 PM
The gratuitous Mattei nonsense is universally rejected by all trads.
Mattei has only succeeded in discrediting himself, not his target.
That's a silly approach.

De Mattei is fooled by TFP, and fooled by CÖVÌD-lies, and unfortunately not rejected by all trads.
But that doesn't make up for the still missing answer of Viganò to a serious question.
Title: Re: +Vigano Refutes de Mattei!
Post by: SeanJohnson on June 22, 2021, 11:32:02 PM
That's a silly approach.

De Mattei is fooled by TFP, and fooled by CÖVÌD-lies, and unfortunately not rejected by all trads.
But that doesn't make up for the still missing answer of Viganò to a serious question.

Hmm...your early posts are almost all one sentence or less, yet these most recent posts sometimes run as long as two sentences.  

You took an 8-year hiatus (from 2013-2021), and rejoined to post about the Germans.  Hmm.

Clearly someone is ghost writing for you.  Or, maybe your account was hacked.

Until you can post a selfie showing you logging into your CI account, I do not think we can accept that you are the real Marion.

We are all holding out our breath until you can rebut my worry.
Title: Re: +Vigano Refutes de Mattei!
Post by: Marion on June 22, 2021, 11:38:33 PM
Hmm...your early posts ere almost all one sentence or less, yet these most recent posts sometimes run as long as two sentences.  

Clearly someone is ghost writing for you.

Until you can post a selfie showing you logging into your CI account, I do not think we can accept that you are the real Marion.

We are all holding out our breath until you can rebut my worry.
True, you can't be sure, whether I am the person once registered as Marion on CI or whether I am a different person. But then, on the other hand, nobody cares what I write, and nobody is phantasizing that I should become Pope.
Title: Re: +Vigano Refutes de Mattei!
Post by: SeanJohnson on June 22, 2021, 11:40:34 PM
True, you can't be sure, whether I am the person once registered as Marion on CI or whether I am a different person. But then, on the other hand, nobody is phantasizing that I should become Pope.

I'm sorry, but until I can ascertain with certitude that you are the real Marion, who disappeared for 8 years, and came back to defend the Germans, I just can't really hear anything you have to say.
Title: Re: +Vigano Refutes de Mattei!
Post by: Marion on June 22, 2021, 11:49:20 PM
I'm sorry, but until I can ascertain with certitude that you are the real Marion, who disappeared for 8 years, and came back to defend the Germans, I just can't really hear anything you have to say.

You can't even hear what de Mattei has to say. To love our enemies doesn't mean to agree with them, but if we refer to their writings, we should read them with open eyes, and an open heart.
Title: Re: +Vigano Refutes de Mattei!
Post by: Matthew on June 23, 2021, 01:47:12 AM
Marion's first 14 posts happened 2013 or earlier.

The rest of his posts (35 posts, or 71% of them) happened starting recently, here in 2021. For him, that's really posting up a storm all the sudden.

Reminds me of the US Dollar -- hyperinflation here we come! hahaha

Not unprecedented, but I just wanted to point that out. I'm scratching my head myself. Something lit a fire under him -- which no thread in the last 8 years managed to do (and there were quite a few doozies during that 8-year period, let me point out!)
Title: Re: +Vigano Refutes de Mattei!
Post by: Matthew on June 23, 2021, 01:52:56 AM
You can't even hear what de Mattei has to say. To love our enemies doesn't mean to agree with them, but if we refer to their writings, we should read them with open eyes, and an open heart.

Frankly, we don't have time.

I'm not going to keep expecting a literal miracle. No, there's a thing called MORAL CERTAINTY. You can be morally certain a criminal is going to continue to be bad. Moral certainty means certain enough to act on it. Doesn't mean you won't be wrong 1 in 100,000 times. But that doesn't matter, and God won't blame you.

Humans have to take shortcuts. I don't have time to personally interview everyone in a bad neighborhood. If I get lost in a big city, and find myself in the ghetto, I'm going to lock all my doors and get out of there as soon as I can. Yes, I'm pre-judging. Yes, I'm taking a mental shortcut. Yes, I might be wrong about a few of the people who live there. But it's prudent and rational behavior I should take for the safety of my family in the car with me.

The same reason I don't waste time reading everything that comes out of Modernist Rome these days. Why waste my time? At least watching cat videos on Youtube would be entertaining and diverting (not saying I waste my time thus, but just making a point). Cat videos would certainly be better for my stress level. Why frustrate yourself by following the play-by-play of destroyers like Bıdɛn, the demons in Congress, or Pope Francis? Just prepare yourself and your family -- that is being constructive. There is much we need to learn, as well as teach. That takes time. Time we won't have, if we waste too much time & energy on the dead. Leave the dead to bury the dead. Shake the dust off your feet.

I will never take anything Fauci says seriously, ever again. He's been proven to be a corrupt shill. So he earned that dismissal.
Title: Re: +Vigano Refutes de Mattei!
Post by: 2Vermont on June 23, 2021, 06:42:05 AM
 :laugh1:

This conversation reminds me of Ratzinger's resignation of the Novus Ordo papacy.  And no matter how many times he says he really did resign, meant what he said, and was not forced to do it, the Resignationists just.won't.believe.it.    :fryingpan:
Title: Re: +Vigano Refutes de Mattei!
Post by: Ladislaus on June 23, 2021, 07:21:59 AM
Even if he posted a selfie those who insist on this foolishness would not be appeased.  It’s putting someone into the position of proving a negative.  Even with a picture that doesn’t prove there’s no ghostwriter.  Does +Vigano have to take video of himself penning a letter and then hold it up to the camera?  Even then he couldn’t prove that someone else didn’t write it and that he merely committed it to memory.

This whole thing is stupid.  Mattei just didn’t like the contents of +Vigano’s latest Resistance type missive, so he’s sowing FUD to discredit it.
Title: Re: +Vigano Refutes de Mattei!
Post by: Last Tradhican on June 23, 2021, 07:27:46 AM
When I saw the CI thread about Mattei saying Vigano has a ghost writer, the first thing I thought was who is Mattei? All it said was that he a Catholic writer of prominence. That's no qualification, for there are scarcely any real Catholics in the world today. The line from Casablanca, always comes to mind in situations like this "ɾσυnd υρ the usual subjects"! That is what came to mind, ɾσυnd υρ Mattei, he's a Catholic, have Mattei write something discrediting, dismissing +Vigano.

Now B from A confirms my initial thoughts, just one day later. End of Mattei for me.

If someone came and told me that my sister took any kind of a mean action against someone, I immediately would know that the person was a liar or he mistook a stranger for my sister. +Vigano has proven himself by his recent writings, his deeds, Mattei has not proven himself by his life as per B from A's postings.
Title: Re: +Vigano Refutes de Mattei!
Post by: Seraphina on June 23, 2021, 07:38:21 AM
Well, they say everyone has a double!   :jester: :jester:
Title: Re: +Vigano Refutes de Mattei!
Post by: B from A on June 23, 2021, 11:24:44 AM
Vigano was murdered by Deep Church operatives in late 2019-early 2020. The bizarre prophecies issued afterwards in his name are part of a Deep Church plot to tarnish Vigano's legacy and discredit Traditional Catholicism.
Is this a joke?  

I guess this video was a deep fake then....   (26 Oct 2020) 


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NbO-1jO1LlE
Title: Re: +Vigano Refutes de Mattei!
Post by: Emile on June 23, 2021, 11:27:52 AM
Vigano was murdered by Deep Church operatives in late 2019-early 2020. The bizarre prophecies issued afterwards in his name are part of a Deep Church plot to tarnish Vigano's legacy and discredit Traditional Catholicism.
Interesting theory. Would you mind laying out the case for it?
Title: Re: +Vigano Refutes de Mattei!
Post by: SeanJohnson on June 23, 2021, 11:29:23 AM
Is there a full moon out?
Title: Re: +Vigano Refutes de Mattei!
Post by: Matto on June 23, 2021, 11:34:55 AM
Is there a full moon out?
Werewovles are good. They are a secret brotherhood who defend Christianity from the vampires.
Title: Re: +Vigano Refutes de Mattei!
Post by: Romulus on June 23, 2021, 11:52:39 AM
Werewovles are good. They are a secret brotherhood who defend Christianity from the vampires.
Lol
Title: Re: +Vigano Refutes de Mattei!
Post by: B from A on June 23, 2021, 11:53:15 AM
Is there a full moon out?
:laugh1:
Title: Re: +Vigano Refutes de Mattei!
Post by: Ladislaus on June 23, 2021, 11:56:11 AM
Interesting theory. Would you mind laying out the case for it?

This +Vigano murder theory has as much evidence behind it as Mattei's ... so why not?
Title: Re: +Vigano Refutes de Mattei!
Post by: Emile on June 23, 2021, 12:31:09 PM
This +Vigano murder theory has as much evidence behind it as Mattei's ... so why not?
Apparently our new friend has been banned already. Pity, he seemed "interesting". :laugh1:
Title: Re: +Vigano Refutes de Mattei!
Post by: Marion on June 23, 2021, 01:35:17 PM
Quote from: gloria.tv
1 hour ago
De Mattei Believes He Knows Viganò's "Ghostwriter"
(https://assistant.gloria.tv/FxK6pqhk7ZiS1AZwTDoBU6KMY/a45z581885lnohl85g2j6gxsj9pqivd1wzsv67u.webp?scale=256&format=webp)
Roberto de Mattei published on CorrispondenzaRomana.it (June 23) more on his claim that Archbishop Viganò uses a "ghostwriter."

Viganò has forcefully denied (https://gloria.tv/post/ZyK76s9y9Rm31ye4ydy96MJuh) de Mattei's claim. According to De Mattei, the "ghostwriter" is a certain Pietro Siffi, 52, who uses different pseudonyms, among them "Cesare Baronio" (OpportuneImportune.blogspot.com). He helped organising Viganò's May 2020 appeal (https://gloria.tv/post/TYsYpTxU9eDT6DdVJej8HFUtV) collecting the signatures using his name and email.

De Mattei argues with what he calls a "stylometric" research and compares Viganò's and Siffi's texts, their lexical and stylistic elements. Both use similar phrases, creative words and ideas like “idol” for Vatican II, “Montinian rite” for the New Mass etc. Besides verbal coincidences there is "the same tone," de Mattei believes.

Siffi stopped publishing on his blog in 2020 when Viganò started writing more frequently. De Mattei questions not Siffi’s intelligence but his integrity. Venice born Siffi was a seminarian with PiusX and with Institute of Christ the King, but left both places.

In 2010, he started a business for interior design providing furnishing accessories and exclusive art fabrics. A year later, Siffi founded together with a certain Fabio Zardi a decoration studio which deals with floral design and organises weddings, homosex pseudo-weddings included - as announced on their business website.

Siffi’s “current or former” business partner Zardi shared the same phone number. De Mattei calls Siffi a “gαy-friendly figure” judging from his public appearance but says he doesn't want to enter into Siffi's “private life.”

Last year, Viganò was criticised for his English translator (https://gloria.tv/post/daLG1KrGA1gs1ynuvcr2LzE8h).

Title: Re: +Vigano Refutes de Mattei!
Post by: SeanJohnson on June 23, 2021, 01:46:41 PM
de Mattei has clearly lost his mind (unless his ghost writer is putting words in his mouth).
Title: Re: +Vigano Refutes de Mattei!
Post by: Ladislaus on June 23, 2021, 01:55:25 PM
 :facepalm:

Mattei's latest update smells of desperation.  If he had this evidence before he made the initial allegation, then he could have produced it then.  This sounds like a subsequent attempt now to justify his original claim (which he made without evidence) after +Vigano repudiated it.  Mattei also basically accused this Siffi of being a ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ, so he could be on the hook for slander if it's not true.

Since +Vigano has denied it, that would make him a liar.  And he might be a lot of things, but I don't see him as that.  Unless of course this Siffi has been pretending to be +Vigano the entire time, including when he denied having a ghostwriter, and +Vigano has somehow been entirely removed from the scene.  I doubt that a closet sơdơmite would be a big +Vigano fan given that the latter exposed the sơdơmite coverups orchestrated by Rome.

Simply because +Vigano used some terms like "Montinian Rite" and "idol" means nothing.  He could have just adopted or assimilated those terms as apt after having done some reading.  We here on CI pick up various terms from one another, such as Bennyvacantism or sededoubtism, etc.  Does he have more than these two phrases and some alleged "tone" to back up his "stylometric" assertion?  After I had read a couple Nathaniel Hawthorne novels when I was younger, I actually started writing a bit like Hawthorne for a while ... unconsciously.
Title: Re: +Vigano Refutes de Mattei!
Post by: SeanJohnson on June 23, 2021, 02:08:02 PM
:facepalm:

Mattei's latest update smells of desperation.  If he had this evidence before he made the initial allegation, then he could have produced it then.  This sounds like a subsequent attempt now to justify his original claim (which he made without evidence) after +Vigano repudiated it.  Mattei also basically accused this Siffi of being a ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ, so he could be on the hook for slander if it's not true.

Since +Vigano has denied it, that would make him a liar.  And he might be a lot of things, but I don't see him as that.  Unless of course this Siffi has been pretending to be +Vigano the entire time, including when he denied having a ghostwriter, and +Vigano has somehow been entirely removed from the scene.  I doubt that a closet sơdơmite would be a big +Vigano fan given that the latter exposed the sơdơmite coverups orchestrated by Rome.

Simply because +Vigano used some terms like "Montinian Rite" and "idol" means nothing.  He could have just adopted or assimilated those terms as apt after having done some reading.  We here on CI pick up various terms from one another, such as Bennyvacantism or sededoubtism, etc.  Does he have more than these two phrases and some alleged "tone" to back up his "stylometric" assertion?  After I had read a couple Nathaniel Hawthorne novels when I was younger, I actually started writing a bit like Hawthorne for a while ... unconsciously.

Its like de Mattei is using the modernist biblical historical critical exegetical J,E,P,D theory of textual analysis to conclude none of the Gospel writers actually wrote the Gospels attributed to them (or in this case, that +Vigano hasn't written anything attributed to him...and not even the live speech he gave at the 2020 Catholic Identity Conference, in which he voiced opinions precisely like those de Mattei claims could not have come from him, can change his mind).

So, we are to believe, without any evidence, that not only does +Vigano have a ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ ghostwriter, but he has body doubles giving conferences for him.

:facepalm:

Mattei has flipped his wig.

It takes so long to build a good reputation, but only one incident like this to discredit a lifetime of work.

I haven't read stuff this batshit crazy since the old "Pope Paul VI is drugged and held in the Palmar de Troya basement, and his bodydouble is on the throne: Look at the ears!!!"
Title: Re: +Vigano Refutes de Mattei!
Post by: Matto on June 23, 2021, 02:12:42 PM
 I haven't read stuff this batshit crazy since the old "Pope Paul VI is drugged and held in the Palmar de Troya basement, and his bodydouble is on the throne: Look at the ears!!!"
I read stuff this crazy every day right here on Cathinfo.  
Title: Re: +Vigano Refutes de Mattei!
Post by: Ladislaus on June 23, 2021, 02:12:56 PM
I haven't read stuff this batshit crazy since the old "Pope Paul VI is drugged and held in the Palmar de Troya basement, and his bodydouble is on the throne: Look at the ears!!!"

Well, I actually find the drugged Paul VI in the basement to be a little more credible.  It's hard to ignore the ears.   :laugh1:
Title: Re: +Vigano Refutes de Mattei!
Post by: Ladislaus on June 23, 2021, 02:13:42 PM
I read stuff this crazy every day right here on Cathinfo.  

And you even post some of it.   :laugh1:

If you're referring to the Sister Lucia double theory, there's actual some pretty weighty evidence in its favor, whereas Mattei is clearly grasping at straws.
Title: Re: +Vigano Refutes de Mattei!
Post by: Matto on June 23, 2021, 02:14:20 PM
And you even post some of it.   :laugh1:
I plead guilty.  :laugh1:  
Title: Re: +Vigano Refutes de Mattei!
Post by: Ladislaus on June 23, 2021, 02:15:26 PM
I am guilty.  :laugh1:

Most of us are, the difference being that we're just shooting the breeze among friends here.
Title: Re: +Vigano Refutes de Mattei!
Post by: Matto on June 23, 2021, 02:17:02 PM
If you're referring to the Sister Lucia double theory, there's actual some pretty weighty evidence in its favor, whereas Mattei is clearly grasping at straws.
The two sister Lucys do look  different. But so do the two Paul VI's ears. But in this case, I don't see how he could know which particular blogger is writing Vigano's letters unless he has evidence he did not provide. It seems like pure rumor mongering. I would say calumny, but I don't think it is that exactly.
Title: Re: +Vigano Refutes de Mattei!
Post by: SeanJohnson on June 23, 2021, 02:18:35 PM
The two sister Lucys do look  different. But so do the two Paul VI's ears.
What have I started?
:facepalm:
Title: Re: +Vigano Refutes de Mattei!
Post by: SeanJohnson on June 23, 2021, 02:21:18 PM
Roberto de Mattei-

Because you are having difficulty accepting that +Vigano has adopted the Resistance position, this is for you:

https://remnantnewspaper.com/web/index.php/headline-news-around-the-world/item/4146-paul-vi-imposter-pope
Title: Re: +Vigano Refutes de Mattei!
Post by: Ladislaus on June 23, 2021, 02:33:15 PM
The two sister Lucys do look  different. But so do the two Paul VI's ears. But in this case, I don't see how he could know which particular blogger is writing Vigano's letters unless he has evidence he did not provide. It seems like pure rumor mongering. I would say calumny, but I don't think it is that exactly.

It's not quite calumny, but close to it.  Of course if this ghostwriter isn't in fact a sodomite, Mattei's suggestion to that effect could be calumny and slander.
Title: Re: +Vigano Refutes de Mattei!
Post by: Marion on June 23, 2021, 02:36:19 PM
Full de Mattei article in Italian with lots of details:


https://www.corrispondenzaromana.it/caso-vigano-chi-e-il-vero-autore-degli-scritti-di-mons-vigano/

Google translation:

https://www-corrispondenzaromana-it.translate.goog/caso-vigano-chi-e-il-vero-autore-degli-scritti-di-mons-vigano/?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en&_x_tr_pto=ajax,nv
Title: Re: +Vigano Refutes de Mattei!
Post by: Ladislaus on June 23, 2021, 02:36:32 PM
Roberto de Mattei-

Because you are having difficulty accepting that +Vigano has adopted the Resistance position, this is for you:

https://remnantnewspaper.com/web/index.php/headline-news-around-the-world/item/4146-paul-vi-imposter-pope

Matt picks the two easiest pictures to debunk.  There are some which make me scratch my head including a variation where in one picture the ear lobe is attached to the head where in the other it is not.  That second picture of the old Montini is definitely the same guy, although showing the ravages of the evil he had wrought his entire life (he has a disturbingly evil expression on him).

But you brought this on yourself.
Title: Re: +Vigano Refutes de Mattei!
Post by: Ladislaus on June 23, 2021, 02:43:49 PM
Full de Mattei article in Italian with lots of details:


https://www.corrispondenzaromana.it/caso-vigano-chi-e-il-vero-autore-degli-scritti-di-mons-vigano/

Google translation:

https://www-corrispondenzaromana-it.translate.goog/caso-vigano-chi-e-il-vero-autore-degli-scritti-di-mons-vigano/?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en&_x_tr_pto=ajax,nv

Absolute nothingburger.  Seems like +Vigano knows this Siffi and might have adopted a phrase or two from him.  That does not amount to ghostwriting.  I was looking for him to have run both texts through a real stylistic algorithm, but we're talking about a handful of phrases that +Vigano might have adopted because he thought they were fitting.  I'm sure we all pick up language and phrases after reading stuff where the phrases seems to make sense.
Title: Re: +Vigano Refutes de Mattei!
Post by: SeanJohnson on June 23, 2021, 02:55:03 PM
According to Robert Moynihan (Inside the Vatican), here is a possible motive for de Mattei's slander:

https://insidethevatican.com/news/newsflash/letter-38-2021-tuesday-june-22-accusation/


Letter #38, 2021, Tuesday, June 22: A Startling Accusation

 “The question we pose is therefore this: analysis of the language and content of the docuмents produced by Archbishop Viganò during the years 2020-2021 reveals an author different from that of the years 2018-2019. But if Archbishop Viganò is not the author of his writings, who now is filling in his words, and perhaps even his thoughts? We would never have opened the case if so many good traditionalists were not presenting as a quasi-magisterium the statements, not of Archbishop Viganò, but of his ‘double.‘” —Italian professor Dr. Roberto De Mattei, June 21, in an article published on his website, Corrispondenza Romana (link (https://www.corrispondenzaromana.it/caso-vigano-larcivescovo-e-il-suo-doppio/) to the original Italian and link (https://www.corrispondenzaromana.it/the-vigano-case-the-archbishop-and-his-double/) to an English translation; the full text is also below)

 Dr. De Mattei — a leading, generally conservative Catholic intellectual in Italy who has been a friend of Archbishop Viganò for many years — made a startling allegation two days ago which has gone viral.

 That there are “two Viganòs.”

 ***
 
De Mattei accused Viganò of having a “double,” a “stand-in,” a kind of “false Viganò” who — and this is De Mattei’s central allegation — has written many of the “Viganò letters” over the past year or so which Viganò has signed.(!)

 De Mattei says at the end of his essay that Viganò was contacted privately and confronted with this allegation.

 Evidently, Viganò assured De Mattei that there was no truth to the allegation.

 ***
 
Why then has Dr. De Mattei issued this public accusation, if Viganò already told him (as it appears) that it is not true?

 ***
 
Evidently, because the matters that Viganò has been touching on in the past year (the “global reset,” the national lσcкdσωns, the virus, the various vaccinations, all such social and political matters, but also the archbishop’s increasing focus on the beauty and holiness of the old Mass, and his tracing of a certain rejection of traditional Catholic teaching (which might be termed “modernism”) back to the 1960s, and before, rather than seeing it only in the years of this present pontificate) are very disturbing to some — more disturbing than Viganò’s revelations of corruption and coverup in the Roman Curia, which were the main burden of Viganò’s early letters, and which never provoked the suggestion that Viganò had a double.

 In other words, as is often popularly said, “When you are over the target, the anti-aircraft fire intensifies.”

 Viganó has touched a nerve, and one of his old friends has now placed in the public domain an article which will inevitably leave a trace of doubt, because many will say, “Well, some think there are two Viganò’s…”

 In this sense, a certain damage has been done to the archbishop’s reputation and credibility by the public circulation of this allegation.

 So again, why?

 Part of the answer may lie in the fact that a few weeks ago Dr. De Mattei — as Viganò notes in his response to the accusation below — came out in support of the worldwide use of the presently available emergency injections (called “vaccinations” though they are not ναccιnєs) as a way of stemming the pandemic. (link (https://onepeterfive.com/roberto-de-mattei-qa-on-the-pandemic-and-the-ναccιnєs/)) De Mattei’s embrace of this position was quite influential for other conservative Catholics (link (https://www.gloria.tv/post/63Cj9cib8dyT43vs3a8fMEdz4)).

 De Mattei contended that such use was moral even if the injected material was in some way derived from the use of aborted fetal tissue, something Archbishop Viganò has repeatedly denounced as immoral.

 De Mattei asked: “1) Is it morally licit to use ναccιnєs against CÖVÌD-19 that use cellular lines coming from aborted fetuses?” And he answered: “There is… a reply that is more easily accessible for the Catholic with good sense, and this is it: it is licit to be ναccιnαted [even if the ναccιnє is derived from the cells of aborted human fetuses] because the Church assures of this, through its most authoritative doctrinal body, the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.”

 It is in that moment that the first “rift” between the position of Dr. De Mattei diverged from the position of Archbishop Viganò.
Title: Re: +Vigano Refutes de Mattei!
Post by: Marion on June 23, 2021, 02:57:25 PM
I'm curious what Viganò will say about Siffy and "gαy marriages".
Title: Re: +Vigano Refutes de Mattei!
Post by: SeanJohnson on June 23, 2021, 03:01:52 PM
I'm curious what Viganò will say about Siffy and "gαy marriages".

I am told you are an active sơdơmite.

Can you prove that is not the case?
Title: Re: +Vigano Refutes de Mattei!
Post by: Marion on June 23, 2021, 03:06:07 PM
I am told you are an active sơdơmite.

Can you prove that is not the case?
No, not to you, how could I?
Title: Re: +Vigano Refutes de Mattei!
Post by: SeanJohnson on June 23, 2021, 03:06:49 PM
No, not to you, how could I?
Then I guess it must be true, and you should be banned post-haste.
Title: Re: +Vigano Refutes de Mattei!
Post by: Marion on June 23, 2021, 03:27:28 PM
Then I guess it must be true, and you should be banned post-haste.
Are you able to prove you're not a secret muslim?
Why ban? Just for being cautious with respect to the Viganò writings?
Title: Re: +Vigano Refutes de Mattei!
Post by: SeanJohnson on June 23, 2021, 03:29:56 PM
Are you able to prove you're not a secret muslim?
Why ban? Just for being cautious with respect to the Viganò writings?
Which me are you addressing?  And from which you?
Title: Re: +Vigano Refutes de Mattei!
Post by: Romulus on June 23, 2021, 03:31:50 PM
Are you able to prove you're not a secret muslim?
Idk how he could be a secret Muslim with that profile pic
Title: Re: +Vigano Refutes de Mattei!
Post by: SeanJohnson on June 23, 2021, 03:34:32 PM
Idk how he could be a secret Muslim with that profile pic
You never know!  Can’t be too careful!
Title: Re: +Vigano Refutes de Mattei!
Post by: Meg on June 23, 2021, 03:35:37 PM
So again, why?

 Part of the answer may lie in the fact that a few weeks ago Dr. De Mattei — as Viganò notes in his response to the accusation below — came out in support of the worldwide use of the presently available emergency injections (called “vaccinations” though they are not ναccιnєs) as a way of stemming the pandemic. (link (https://onepeterfive.com/roberto-de-mattei-qa-on-the-pandemic-and-the-ναccιnєs/)) De Mattei’s embrace of this position was quite influential for other conservative Catholics (link (https://www.gloria.tv/post/63Cj9cib8dyT43vs3a8fMEdz4)).

 De Mattei contended that such use was moral even if the injected material was in some way derived from the use of aborted fetal tissue, something Archbishop Viganò has repeatedly denounced as immoral.

 De Mattei asked: “1) Is it morally licit to use ναccιnєs against CÖVÌD-19 that use cellular lines coming from aborted fetuses?” And he answered: “There is… a reply that is more easily accessible for the Catholic with good sense, and this is it: it is licit to be ναccιnαted [even if the ναccιnє is derived from the cells of aborted human fetuses] because the Church assures of this, through its most authoritative doctrinal body, the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.”

 It is in that moment that the first “rift” between the position of Dr. De Mattei diverged from the position of Archbishop Viganò.

Good catch there by Robert Moynihan. I thought that the problem that Mattei has with +Vigano might have something to do with either the NWO problem with CÖVÌD, or CÖVÌD and vaccinations.

I've not been a fan of de Mattei since realizing that he's a Plinio devotee, and I don't read his writings (until now). I'm not surprised that he's taken this stand against +Vigano.

De Mattei is a layman, but he seems to think that he has the authority to rebuke an Archbishop (of course many Archbishops in the conciliar church need to be rebuked, but not +Vigano). Since Mattei thinks of himself as a member of the Elite, perhaps he feels qualified to render a judgment against +Vigano. That's how the TFP folks operate. The Elites, in a TFP world, have a lot of power. Or they think that they should have.
Title: Re: +Vigano Refutes de Mattei!
Post by: SeanJohnson on June 23, 2021, 03:56:29 PM
It is a good sign when Vigano comes under attack from NWO, plannedemic, globalist, and conciliar types.

It confirms he is fully on our side, and opposed to them.
Title: Re: +Vigano Refutes de Mattei!
Post by: Marion on June 23, 2021, 09:24:46 PM
[Robert Moynihan:] Dr. De Mattei — a leading, generally conservative Catholic intellectual in Italy who has been a friend of Archbishop Viganò for many years — made a startling allegation two days ago which has gone viral.

Hard to imagine. Viganò, who condemned the Council and denounced a "parallel church", a friend of many years of de Mattei. Viganò a friend of many years of the TFPista, disciple and hagiographer of Plínio Corrêa de Oliveira, the prophet man-god of Higienópolis. Now they're divided about the question: To wear or not to wear a tin foil hat. To wear or not to wear a mask. To see or not to see all the fraud, conspirasy, and aggression of governments against their own people.

I can understand that most CI-members in this thread put hope in Viganò. But I think, what de Mattei does is good for all. For those who put hope in Viganò, those who are unsure in times of universal deceit, and finally for those who mistrust or reject Viganò. The attack of de Mattei may well bring relief for all, in the near future. Some will have to rethink their approach, but they'll still be relieved.

Title: Re: +Vigano Refutes de Mattei!
Post by: Marion on June 23, 2021, 09:26:32 PM
Idk how he could be a secret Muslim with that profile pic
I would use SeanJohnsons profile pic, if I was a secret Muslim. It's the perfect disguise. In'it?
Title: Re: +Vigano Refutes de Mattei!
Post by: SeanJohnson on June 23, 2021, 09:33:40 PM
I would use SeanJohnsons profile pic, if I was a secret Muslim. It's the perfect disguise. In'it?
Excellent point!!  I may not be Sean Johnson after all!!
(What happened to the pot smoker emoji?)
Title: Re: +Vigano Refutes de Mattei!
Post by: Marion on June 23, 2021, 09:37:38 PM
Excellent point!!  I may not be Sean Johnson after all!!
(What happened to the pot smoker emoji?)
:laugh1:
A pot smoker emoji combined with your profile pic might be more than perfect for a secret Muslim.
Title: Re: +Vigano Refutes de Mattei!
Post by: SeanJohnson on June 23, 2021, 09:37:47 PM
Hard to imagine. Viganò, who condemned the Council and denounced a "parallel church", a friend of many years of de Mattei. Viganò a friend of many years of the TFPista, disciple and hagiographer of Plínio Corrêa de Oliveira, the prophet man-god of Higienópolis. Now they're divided about the question: To wear or not to wear a tin foil hat. To wear or not to wear a mask. To see or not to see all the fraud, conspirasy, and aggression of governments against their own people.

I can understand that most CI-members in this thread put hope in Viganò. But I think, what de Mattei does is good for all. For those who put hope in Viganò, those who are unsure in times of universal deceit, and finally for those who mistrust or reject Viganò. The attack of de Mattei may well bring relief for all, in the near future. Some will have to rethink their approach, but they'll still be relieved.
I agree with you that de Mattei is an infiltrator.
Title: Re: +Vigano Refutes de Mattei!
Post by: SeanJohnson on June 23, 2021, 09:38:37 PM
:laugh1:
A pot smoker emoji combined with your profile pic might be more than perfect for a secret Muslim.

Absolutely right!  Or even better, I could be a secret Jew!

What do you think of the Jews?
Title: Re: +Vigano Refutes de Mattei!
Post by: SeanJohnson on June 23, 2021, 09:46:15 PM
Ok, as Matthew is content to let this shill malign and attack Vigano’s integrity, I will sit by and watch it all with Matthew.

:popcorn:
Title: Re: +Vigano Refutes de Mattei!
Post by: Marion on June 23, 2021, 10:05:56 PM
Ok, as Matthew is content to let this shill malign and attack Vigano’s integrity, I will sit by and watch it all with Matthew.
How can you complain about a certain mistrust of a Catholic against a prelate of the Conciliar Sect with sudden late insights, published in a way where it's hard to know whether it's news or fake news?

I don't understand your problem. If I were convinced that the writings are truely Viganò, or at least commissioned and authorized by Viganò, then I would assume that he will destroy de Mattei.
Title: Re: +Vigano Refutes de Mattei!
Post by: SeanJohnson on June 23, 2021, 10:10:50 PM
How can you complain about a certain mistrust of a Catholic against a prelate of the Conciliar Sect with sudden late insights, published in a way where it's hard to know whether it's news or fake news?

I don't understand your problem. If I were convinced that the writings are truely Viganò, or at least commissioned and authorized by Viganò, then I would assume that he will destroy de Mattei.
Wonderful points!  Please continue!!!
:popcorn:
Title: Re: +Vigano Refutes de Mattei!
Post by: Marion on June 23, 2021, 10:23:22 PM
Wonderful points!  Please continue!!!
:popcorn:
Viganò is a diplomat. He will know how to destroy de Mattei in far smoother words than de Mattei used, to canonize Plínio in his romantic hagiography.
Title: Re: +Vigano Refutes de Mattei!
Post by: SeanJohnson on June 23, 2021, 10:45:00 PM
Viganò is a diplomat. He will know how to destroy de Mattei in far smoother words than de Mattei used, to canonize Plínio in his romantic hagiography.
Outstanding!  Please continue!!
:popcorn:
Title: Re: +Vigano Refutes de Mattei!
Post by: Ladislaus on June 23, 2021, 11:11:21 PM
I don’t buy that this comes as a result of their disagreement about the vax.  That’s been out there for a while, but this accusation follows closely in the wake of +Vigano’s Resistance letter.  Mattei’s biggest correlation with Siffi had to do with denunciation of the Conciliar Church.  I really believe that is what’s really ruffling his feathers. He’s probably worried that a figure of +Vigano’s caliber could lead a united front against the Conciliar Church ... so he had to undermine him.
Title: Re: +Vigano Refutes de Mattei!
Post by: KevinBrumley on June 24, 2021, 01:18:21 AM
Theologians composed Encyclicals for Popes.  So what if someone else is writing his material?  He assents to all of the material, making it his own thought by agreement and consent.  
Title: Re: +Vigano Refutes de Mattei!
Post by: Matthew on June 24, 2021, 01:23:02 AM
I don’t buy that this comes as a result of their disagreement about the vax.  That’s been out there for a while, but this accusation follows closely in the wake of +Vigano’s Resistance letter.  Mattei’s biggest correlation with Siffi had to do with denunciation of the Conciliar Church.  I really believe that is what’s really ruffling his feathers. He’s probably worried that a figure of +Vigano’s caliber could lead a united front against the Conciliar Church ... so he had to undermine him.

I'm with Ladislaus on this one.

The vax alone is a "shibboleth" for those who are against globohomo, the Great Reset, and other evils/evil plans in the world. But it's that opposition to Modernism, moral relativism, ƈσmmυɳιsm, the Great Reset, the secret cabal of luciferians, etc. that is the real issue.

Interesting that the Conciliar Church is encouraging priests and faithful to wear masks, take the experimental injection. It confirms me in my belief that the Conciliar Church is evil, but at the same time it shows that masks and the injection are evil.
Title: Re: +Vigano Refutes de Mattei!
Post by: SeanJohnson on June 24, 2021, 06:40:44 AM
Defending Viganò: Two of the archbishop’s editors respond to Professor de Mattei’s accusations
We thought that, by virtue of our work and close collaboration with His Grace, we might be competent to speak for and defend him.
Wed Jun 23, 2021 - 8:57 pm EST

(https://assets.lifesitenews.com/images/made/images/remote/https_www.lifesitenews.com/images/local/Propstei_Paring-00032-20180518-101828_810_500_75_s_c1.jpg)Archbishop Carlo Maria Viganò speaks at the Rome Life Forum in May 2018.


June 23, 2021 (LifeSiteNews (https://www.lifesitenews.com/)) – The following text is a composite response from Professor Brian McCall and Dr. Maike Hickson, both of whom are involved in book projects with collections of Archbishop Carlo Maria Viganò's writings of the last years.
We thought that, by virtue of our work and close collaboration with His Grace, we might be competent to speak for and defend him. We do so in two consecutive texts, written individually. We are both honored to add our Apologiae pro Viganò to those already published by Dr. Taylor Marshall (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gctxhniG1Rs) and Robert Moynihan (https://insidethevatican.com/news/newsflash/letter-38-2021-tuesday-june-22-accusation/).


The Real Archbishop Viganò
By Brian McCall
 (https://www.lifesitenews.com/podcasts/the-john-henry-westen-show?utm_source=webad)
Sadly, Professor Roberto De Mattei decided to publish a calumnious attack on Archbishop Carlo Maria Viganò (https://www.lifesitenews.com/podcasts/the-john-henry-westen-show?utm_source=webad)[1] (https://www.lifesitenews.com/blogs/defending-vigano-two-of-the-archbishops-editors-respond-to-professor-de-matteis-accusations?utm_source=top_news&utm_campaign=catholic#_ftn1). Before addressing this surprising and disappointing attack, I wish to state that I have had great respect for Professor De Mattei. I have highly recommended his book: The Second Vatican Council: An Unwritten Story. I was very much taken by surprise when he came out so forcefully in favor of totalitarian government measures and mandatory vaccines this past year. Yet, I gave him the benefit of the doubt. Living in Europe, and especially Italy, this past year must have been devastating. Yet, when I saw this scandalous attack on Archbishop Viganò, I was left speechless. Finally, a bishop of the Church responds to the crisis in the Church the way Traditionalists have urged the hierarchy to respond. Finally, a bishop has his eyes opened to the ʀɛʋօʟutιօn that De Mattei meticulously docuмents in his book. Yet, Professor De Mattei hurls insults rather than opening his arms in acceptance to someone who is clearly indebted to his very work.
De Mattei levels three main accusations at the Archbishop: (1) the Archbishop’s public statements from 2020-2021 exhibit “discrepancies” from his statements from 2018—2019 and are essentially not in continuity; (2) the Archbishop’s more recent statements are “pompous” and “sarcastic;” and (3) the Archbishop is not the real author of the statements attributed to him recently and there is some secret alter ego author publishing them under his signature.

As to the first criticism, from someone who has studied the Archbishop’s writings extensively (both for publication through Catholic Family News) and for editing and explanation in the book A Voice in the Wilderness (https://www.amazon.com/Voice-Wilderness-Archbishop-Vigan%C3%B2-America/dp/1621386961/ref=asc_df_1621386961/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=509360428262&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=13931934241828133641&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9011770&hvtargid=pla-1214015667075&psc=1), I find absolutely no discrepancies between the identified time periods. I see a perfectly logical and coherent development of understanding running through the four-year period. As I explain at length in A Voice in the Wilderness (https://www.amazon.com/Voice-Wilderness-Archbishop-Vigan%C3%B2-America/dp/1621386961/ref=asc_df_1621386961/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=509360428262&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=13931934241828133641&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9011770&hvtargid=pla-1214015667075&psc=1), that logical progress goes from seeing a serious problem with corruption (and in particular sơdơmy and its harboring) in the highest levels of the hierarchy to tracing the root causes of that moral corruption to Vatican II and the New Mass. This is frankly the consistent and logical course of development that Traditionalists have been urging and praying for the priests and bishops of the world to follow. Archbishop Viganò avoids falling into the pit we have been criticizing “conservatives” for landing in for years: seeing the moral corruption as an isolated problem not connected to liturgy or doctrine. Rather than denouncing the Archbishop for discrepancies or being inconsistent, we should be congratulating and encouraging him for following the evidence wherever it led, even when it led to denouncing the conservative position and the “hermeneutic of continuity’ he had accepted during his Vatican career.
As to the second charge concerning the tone and manner of his more recent interventions, I am surprised to see them called “pompous.” As I explain in A Voice in the Wilderness (https://www.amazon.com/Voice-Wilderness-Archbishop-Vigan%C3%B2-America/dp/1621386961/ref=asc_df_1621386961/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=509360428262&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=13931934241828133641&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9011770&hvtargid=pla-1214015667075&psc=1), his message these past years has been incredibly humble. His Grace has done what so few clerics are willing to do and which takes humility: admit he was wrong. Even when his critics have blamed him for “criticizing” Pope Benedict XVI or claiming that Benedict “deceived” the whole Church, the Archbishop has been quick to respond and make clear that we were all deceived. He has disputed the ability of the “hermeneutic of continuity” to save us from the crisis, but he has made clear that he believes Pope Benedict offered it with good motives and with a love for the church. He has many times admitted his own fault in not seeing the problems with the Council earlier. Rather than pompously telling others “I told you so,” he has merely decried our mutual suffering at the hands of the great deception.
Yes, some of his expressions and criticisms have been strongly worded. Yes, he has called the Vatican of Pope Francis the New Sanhedrin. Yes, he alleged that there are those in the Vatican, including Francis, who are wittingly or unwittingly advancing the agenda of the “invisible enemy.” A grave crisis calls for strong words. The first step to healing is to admit one has a serious problem. Tiptoeing around a problem with euphemisms when the one suffering refuses to admit there is a crisis is not helpful. I remind readers that the late Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre was often criticized for using strong language to denounce the infiltration and betrayal of the Church. In his famous November declaration he referred to Paul VI’s Vatican as “Neo-Protestant and Neo-Modernist Rome.” In his famous sermon at Lille, he referred to the new rites as “bastard sacraments.” When we are living in self-denial, we sometimes need to be shocked out of it. I admit that some of Archbishop Viganò interventions include some sarcasm. Rather than a fault, I see these instances as strengthening his texts. Some of the things we have witnessed, the veneration of the Pachamama for example, are so outrageous that they deserve sarcasm. Yes, his language has been sometimes powerful, graphic, and sarcastic (although justified) but never pompous.  
I also must note that in my regular personal, direct communication with Archbishop Viganò, I have found him to be kind, gentle, and very understanding. Much like Archbishop Lefebvre, I have noted his strong public statements when necessary are in tandem with his very gentle and supportive personal communication. I find this combination not disconcerting but saintly. I am also aware that Archbishop Viganò has provided caring and paternal spiritual guidance and assistance to many lost souls in this time of crisis. He has shown real compassion to help those who reach out for help.
As to the final and in my opinion most outrageous accusation, I find it extremely disappointing that such an accomplished historian would level such an accusation with no evidence or proof. I have already noted that I believe his public interventions are perfectly consistent with a mind open to the truth and reality who sifts the mountains of evidence of the past five decades that lead one to the Council and its New Mass. Certainly, many of the Archbishop’s interventions have been composed in Italian and translated by different translators over the past few years. I do not dispute that one might be able to point to some minor semantic differences in the English translations but there is nothing of substance that I find inconsistent with a developing understanding of the reality of the past five decades. I find it most bizarre that Professor De Mattei specifically attacks in this criticism the “philosophy of history” in the Archbishop’s writings. In these texts, I discover a philosophy of history that is clearly indebted to Professor De Mattei. Rather than seeing the Second Vatican Council as a collection of abstract texts, His Grace has come to see the Council as an entire historical event, and one that is part of a larger ʀɛʋօʟutιօn. This is the same philosophy that I read in The Second Vatican Council: An Unwritten Story. Is Professor De Mattei disturbed that Archbishop Viganò has become his pupil of history?
As to this absurd and unfounded accusation that there is some secret behind the scenes author, how does Professor De Mattei explain the fact that many of the interventions of the past year are transcripts of conferences given by Archbishop Viganò personally and recorded in video or audio form (until YouTube deletes them). For example, his text from the Catholic Identity Conference was delivered via video. His speech at the Jericho March in Washington was also preserved in video as was his speech to the Venice Philosophy Festival. Does Professor De Mattei think that there is some Archbishop Viganò impersonator who gave these recorded lectures? The Archbishop himself publicly denied this scurrilous accusation (although I guess De Mattei might claim that was merely his double speaking).
After his first article, Professor De Mattei issued a second missive that purported to present linguistic evidence that there is a double who wrote the recent texts. He argues that since the Archbishop’s texts use the following expressions, which are also used by a blogger writing for Opportune Importune under the pseudonym Baronio, this Baronio must have authored the texts attributed to Viganò: “counter-church,” “conciliar sect,” “innovators,” and “idol” in reference to the Council. De Mattei claims further proof exists in that both Baronio and Viganò claim an equivalence between Vatican II and the New Mass and both claim that the New Mass was composed by progressives and those suspected of Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ. He also adds that both refer to the New Mass as the “reformed rite” or “Montinian Rite.” This flimsy evidence is unworthy of such an eminent historian. The listed phrases are found all throughout Traditionalist literature and conferences for decades. Does de Mattei claim this Baronio is the secret author behind Michael, Davies, Chris Ferrara, and even Archbishop Lefebvre, all of whom have used some or all of these expressions? I have repeatedly claimed a deep equivalence between the Council and the New Mass and have written and spoken on the Freemasonic and Progressives who forged the New Mass.  Am I next to be accused as a puppet of this Baronio?
Further, de Mattei claims that this Baronio is an Italian named Pietro Siffi, someone whom I do not know but who apparently is a controversial figure in Italian traditional circles. His main fingering of Siffi as Baronio/ Viganò II is a defense of Siffi on Baronio’s blog. Then to add insult to injury after using the flimsy vocabulary claims to link Viganò to Baronio and then just asserting that Baronio is Siffi, he intimates that Siffi is a practicing ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ or at least sympathetic towards such lifestyle. This last intimation defies reason. Archbishop Viganò has been one of the few prelates of our time to unambiguously condemn sơdơmy and the attempt to temper Catholic doctrine on the intrinsic evil. We are now to believe that the power behind the miter is a ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ! We are to believe all this on the basis of an αnσnymσus blogger also using terms like “counciliar sect.”
Sadly, this attack on Archbishop Viganò is another example of a criticism often justly lobbed at Traditionalists. Too often some in the Traditionalist movement do not embrace with open arms those who find the truth late. They are often pushed away or mocked. We should rejoice for any Catholic, lay or clerical, who is willing to follow the evidence to its root. We should be tolerant of any rash or overly zealous language they may employ in discussing their newly found knowledge. (Not that I am claiming that the Archbishop has been overly rash or imprudently zealous). Too often we attack rather than welcome brave souls like Viganò.
I for one stand behind Archbishop Viganò. I welcome his contributions to the debate over the crisis in the Church. I read in all his texts, even his strongly worded ones, a true love for the Church and for lost souls. I admire his courage and his humility. To anyone scandalized by the recent attack, I would urge put these accusations aside and read the texts authored by Archbishop Viganò. Decide for yourself if he speaks consistent truth or not. I assure you that I find nothing in his public addresses or his personal correspondence with me that is inconsistent or contradictory. Finally, pray for Archbishop Viganò. His brave stand against the New Mass and the Council will bring persecution, even from unlikely corners. Pray that he receives the grace to persevere to the end.


In Defense of Archbishop Viganò
By Dr. Maike Hickson

It has been one of the greatest honors and joys of my work as a journalist and author to have gotten to know Archbishop Viganò personally and through his work. I am also currently working with him on a book dealing with his writings on the Second Vatican Council and the message of Fatima. It is a very rewarding work to collaborate with him in every aspect. Most of all, it is a spiritual endeavor that touches the heart of one's Faith, because one sees a man of the Church who gives his all and his best to Christ's Bride, willing to die for her. Day and night – I sometimes wonder when His Grace ever sleeps – Archbishop Viganò is at the service of mankind. People of all steps of life – from simple to high-ranking – have his attention and prompt assistance.
 (https://www.lifesitenews.com/podcasts/mother-miriam-live?utm_source=webad)
I can testify for this, since I am honored to have been the channel of many communications from priests and laymen who reach out to me, asking me to pass on a message to Archbishop Viganò. I have seen close up how quickly he responds, whenever he is able to. Promptus ad bonum, prompt unto the good, at every moment of his life. With fatherly kindness and gentleness, he responds to desperate souls, to priests who are under pressure from their superiors; to faithful who seek his advice.
 (https://www.lifesitenews.com/podcasts/mother-miriam-live?utm_source=webad)
I remember one case where I had asked Archbishop Viganò to pray for someone who was in a difficult situation, for weeks he kept him in his prayers. When finally he was able to reach out to that person, he wrote with such kindness, that the person was touched to tears.
 (https://www.lifesitenews.com/podcasts/mother-miriam-live?utm_source=webad)
Who is this archbishop who acts like a servant, a true shepherd, and a father?
 (https://www.lifesitenews.com/podcasts/mother-miriam-live?utm_source=webad)
It is Archbishop Viganò.
 (https://www.lifesitenews.com/podcasts/mother-miriam-live?utm_source=webad)
Also in our little family, we have been touched so many times by his kindness. When our daughter was sick for a longer time last summer, His Grace sent her sweet pictures and photos with angels and saints. He sometimes gets back to me, asking how someone in my family is now doing, and I had forgotten I had even mentioned it to him.
 (https://www.lifesitenews.com/podcasts/mother-miriam-live?utm_source=webad)
But also intellectually, Archbishop Viganò is such a blessing. He names things as they are. It seems that God used the McCarrick case to remove His Grace from the Church's hierarchy and structure so that he would be fully free to speak in Catholic language. And He seems to bless him abundantly for his willingness to suffer for the Church and under her. So it makes sense that Viganò is growing deeper and deeper in his understanding of the crisis in the Church and in the world, as well.
 (https://www.lifesitenews.com/podcasts/mother-miriam-live?utm_source=webad)
My husband, who has followed the Church crisis for 40 years and with much agony, so often rejoices about Archbishop Viganò's writings. “This is definitely his best text so far,” is what he has now said already several times, not knowing that something even better was to come! It is a great consolation to Robert to see that an archbishop of the Church finally speaks those criticisms that he has uttered for many years now and for which he himself had much to suffer. Viganò's kindness toward him means so much.
 (https://www.lifesitenews.com/podcasts/mother-miriam-live?utm_source=webad)
In our many communications, I have seen how His Grace takes in new information, learns from others, and deepens his thought and takes counsel. I would say that it is his deep humility that makes this intellectual honesty possible.
 (https://www.lifesitenews.com/podcasts/mother-miriam-live?utm_source=webad)
At the same time – and here I respond directly to the claim of Professor de Mattei that there are two Viganòs – I can testify that what His Grace writes is authentically coming from him. There is no split between his own thoughts as he expresses them in private and his writings for the public. He might take counsel with others – as I have seen it myself –, but this is what every responsible churchman should do.
 (https://www.lifesitenews.com/podcasts/mother-miriam-live?utm_source=webad)
As to what His Grace is writing about, I can see much farsightedness. I still marvel at how clearly he saw the corona situation, more than a year ago, at a time where my family was still trying to figure out what was going on. Many of his statements have come to be proven right. Just the other day, a family member who works in the medical field told us how many patients she now has that have grave side effects from the corona vaccines. So much suffering, and we have a shepherd who tried to warn us, at a time where the Supreme temporal Shepherd appears to have largely abandoned us.
 (https://www.lifesitenews.com/podcasts/mother-miriam-live?utm_source=webad)
And truly, he leads us on the path of truth, repentance, reform, trust in God and love of Mary.
 (https://www.lifesitenews.com/podcasts/mother-miriam-live?utm_source=webad)
And this is why so many priests and faithful love Archbishop Viganò. Whether they agree with everything he says or with most of it, they know that he truly loves them and truly cares for them. He acts like a father to us. As one Catholic told me: “the sheep follow when they hear their shepherd's voice.” Or as a priest told me who witnessed a telephone conversation between His Grace and a nun: “she took to him like a duck to water,” meaning they had an immediate, trustful rapport.
 (https://www.lifesitenews.com/podcasts/mother-miriam-live?utm_source=webad)
I have seen Archbishop Viganò calling in to give counsel, taking time to listen and to help.
 (https://www.lifesitenews.com/podcasts/mother-miriam-live?utm_source=webad)
This is the churchman my family and I so cherish.
 (https://www.lifesitenews.com/podcasts/mother-miriam-live?utm_source=webad)


Title: Re: +Vigano Refutes de Mattei!
Post by: SeanJohnson on June 24, 2021, 07:28:02 AM
The “Parking Lot Priest” to Archbishop Viganò: “You are the warrior Prelate!”
Written by  Michael J. Matt | Editor (https://remnantnewspaper.com/web/index.php/articles/itemlist/user/580-michaeljmatt|editor)


https://remnantnewspaper.com/web/index.php/articles/item/5442-the-parking-lot-priest-to-archbishop-vigano-you-are-the-warrior-prelate (https://remnantnewspaper.com/web/index.php/articles/item/5442-the-parking-lot-priest-to-archbishop-vigano-you-are-the-warrior-prelate)


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We typically don’t publish letters not initially intended for public consumption.  As I see it, however, the following exchange provides a teaching moment for us all, since it speaks to the profound impact Archbishop Carlo Maria Viganò is having on the lives of hundreds of thousands of battle-weary faithful Catholics, including not a few priests.
Why does this matter?
Christ established a hierarchical institution, and it is through that hierarchy that His Church will ultimately be restored.  It is thus true, then, that in a moment of crisis such as this, all the blogospheric commentary in the world cannot possibly replace the witness of one faithful Prelate whose fidelity reminds us of Our Lord’s promise to be with us always, even unto the consummation of the world.

The present crisis is that the shepherd has been struck and the sheep are scattered, which is why for the past half century traditional Catholics have been begging God to send faithful shepherds to lead us out of this post-conciliar wilderness.  
Traditionalists are not renegades. We are scattered sheep, abandoned children, who know that tradition means to hand down that which has been given to us.  We know that the Church is not a democracy. We know that it is not our job to save God’s Church, even if it were within our power to do so.  

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We keep the Faith of our fathers, we pray, resist, and constantly scan the horizon for the advance of the faithful shepherds God will send. And when He sends one, it is our sacred duty before God to “fall in” behind them and let them lead.
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God will save His Church in His good time and through the hierarchical channels He has established.  Until then, we keep the Faith of our fathers, we pray, resist, and constantly scan the horizon for the advance of the faithful shepherds God will send. And when He sends one, it is our sacred duty before God to “fall in” behind him.
One of those faithful shepherds is Archbishop Viganò, a man who has proven himself spiritual father and able leader of the scattered soldiers of Jesus Christ.  In a short period of time, he has taken the holy cause of Tradition not only to the Chair of St. Peter but also to the attention of the princes of the world. Readers will recall this presidential tweet from last year:(https://remnantnewspaper.com/web/images/2021/Tɾυmρ_and_Vigano_tweet.jpg)
Not surprisingly, therefore, Archbishop Viganò has come under attack, from quarters expected as well as those unexpected. He is accused of having a “ghostwriter” who is using Viganò for his own ends and purposes. These critics also tell us that His Excellency’s “tone” and “extreme views” are dividing the Children of Light and even alienating members of the episcopate who are sympathetic to Tradition.
Let me be clear: Archbishop Viganò has not asked for my defense, nor does he need it. But I would like to offer a few personal thoughts on the recent controversy, if for no other reason than to explain my own editorial support of the Archbishop.[/font][/size]
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I count legendary pioneers of this movement (such as Michael Davies) as friends and mentors. And yet I must admit that I can think of no other person who has exposed the corruption in the Catholic Church to the extent which Archbishop Viganò has. Just ask MISTER McCarrick!  
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I have been in the fight for Catholic restoration all of my adult life. It is my honor to have received Confirmation from the late, great Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre. I count legendary pioneers of this movement (such as Michael Davies) as friends and mentors. And yet I must admit that I can think of no other person who has exposed the corruption in the Catholic Church to the extent which Archbishop Viganò has. Just ask MISTER McCarrick!  
Viganò has stood strong against the current disastrous pontificate, taking his old “boss”, Pope Francis, to task as no one else has.
And even when it comes to the Liturgical ʀɛʋօʟutιօn and the destructive spirit of Vatican II, I can think of few other Prelates who rival Viganò’s success in raising the profile of the traditional Catholic counterʀɛʋօʟutιօn on the world stage.
And yet, even among some traditional Catholics, there is at this moment, a concerted effort to discredit the man who has exposed corruption in the Church at the highest levels, just because of disagreements over vaccines and the Great Reset.[/font][/size]
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Do not slander the most effective critic Francis has ever faced.  
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One can disagree with him, as I have done from time to time. Viganò is not infallible, and he makes no claim to be. But it is the height of folly to seek to undermine his massive contribution to the work of exposing the rot and scandal in the human element of the post-conciliar Church.
Do not slander the most effective critic Francis has ever faced.
Do not calumniate one of the few members of the hierarchy who has the courage to stand up and resist the attempted takedown of the Bride of Christ.    
Given his position as former Apostolic Nuncio, Viganò is their most formidable adversary. He has walked with the post-conciliar popes. He has moved in circles of power most of us have only read about. He knows the enemy, which is why they fear one Viganò more than an army of bloggers and YouTubers. And with good reason.
Look at the damage Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre did to the ʀɛʋօʟutιօn! Viganò is on a pace to match or exceed that. Even if you disagree with his approach or his “tone”, let the man do his work and pray God gives him the grace to continue. There are plenty of “nice guys” in the hierarchy who can be counted on to never ruffle any feathers. Let Viganò be the voice crying in the wilderness.  [/font][/size]
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I have met Archbishop Viganò and found in him a razor-sharp intellect and strong faith. He is also a kind and humble gentleman, who is motivated by a manifest concern for the faithful and for their children betrayed.  
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The enemies of Tradition would like nothing better than to see Viganò fall. So, let’s stand with him!  
His critics allege that Viganò has a ghostwriter.  To which I say: Please, God, send this indefatigable warrior the able assistants he needs to do his work. I have met two of his team, in fact, and I thank God for them both.  
As for the man himself, let me say this: I have met Archbishop Viganò and found in him a razor-sharp intellect and strong faith. He is also a kind and humble gentleman, who is motivated by a manifest concern for the faithful and for their children betrayed.  
I met His Excellency in Munich back in January 2020. We spoke at length about the important issues affecting the Church, after which he gave me his blessing:

Since that time, I have worked with him on a regular basis by email and telephone, and I can assure the reader that the Viganò I know personally is the same Viganò I publish on a regular basis in The Remnant.
If he has changed his outlook over the past couple of years, it is perfectly consistent with the transformation we’ve all seen in those priests who, after returning to the Traditional Latin Mass, come to a more fundamental understanding of the depth of the ʀɛʋօʟutιօn in the Church.  Archbishop Viganò’s wrath, then, is righteous. He has moved beyond raising “respectful dubia” against those who have declared war on the Church. And, yes, his “tone” reflects that move.
But a ghostwriter? This would be inconsistent with his personality. I suspect that nobody tells Archbishop Viganò what to do, much less what to think or write.  And anyone who says otherwise, presumably does not know the man.  
So that’s my experience with Archbishop Viganò. I don’t pretend to speak for him, nor do I lay claim to inside information over and above that which comes naturally through the friendship and alliance that has formed between us.  [/font][/size]
Quote
I suspect that some of his most powerful enemies plot to destroy Viganò primarily because he stood with us, making his cause the cause of traditional Catholic resistance.  
[size={defaultattr}][font={defaultattr}]
What I’m offering here is the personal testimony of just one lifelong traditional Catholic who sees in Viganò a long-awaited ecclesial ally to the cause of Catholic restoration. But let me be clear: I am not out here on this battlefield because of Viganò. He’s not my “personal magisterium.”  Over the past few years, Archbishop Viganò cut the chains of collegiality and walked out onto No Man’s land to join us on the frontline. We welcomed him with all our hearts. But we were already here, and Viganò has never suggested otherwise.
In fact, I suspect that some of his most powerful enemies plot to destroy Viganò primarily because he stood with us, making his cause the cause of traditional Catholic resistance.  
I pray this short exchange between Archbishop Viganò and the Parking Lot Priest, Father John Echert, will serve as just one small example of the good that is being done, the important alliances that are forming, and the clans that are uniting around the manifest fidelity to Christ’s Bride on the part of this good and faithful shepherd. As he is now under renewed attack, please pray him![/font][/size]
The Exchange

June 10, 2021
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Your Excellency:
Allow me to introduce myself. I am a priest of the Archdiocese of St. Paul-Minneapolis, Minnesota and longtime pastor of Michael Matt and his family. Michael was gracious enough to forward this email to you, at my request. I have been offering the Tridentine Mass in this South St. Paul community for more than twenty years now, going back to the “Indult” days. Though slightly too young to have been trained as a seminarian to say the traditional Mass, having begun seminary in 1970, it was the traditional Mass which first awakened in me a vocation to the priesthood. What a blessing to have rediscovered this venerable treasure as a priest. We now have upwards of 600 faithful attending our Tridentine Masses every Sunday, as well as on weekdays.
I am writing this email to express my profound gratitude to you for your courageous, faithful words and actions these past couple years in particular. I frequently quote you from the pulpit and regard you as the one warrior Prelate who has not wavered or waffled in the face of the crises which we face in the institutional Church and the world. You showed yourself a true friend of our Nation, which you formerly served, when you encouraged American Catholics to pray on behalf of President Tɾυmρ and his reɛƖɛctıon. My congregations were on their knees at church and at home praying daily rosaries for this cause.  Though Divine Providence has another plan, our numbers swelled in my parish and our faith was strengthened in the face of testing and adversity.
Be assured of my continued prayers for your well-being, especially in light of the mortal dangers you face at the hands of our adversaries in the ranks of the institutional Church. God bless you.
Sincerely in Christ,
Father John Paul Echert
Pastor, Holy Trinity Church
St. Augustine Church[/font][/size]
A Reply from Archbishop Viganò

June 13, 2021
Dominica III Post Pentecosten
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Dear and Reverend Father John Echert,
It is with great pleasure that I receive your kind letter and learn of the long-standing relationship with our mutual friend Michel J. Matt. Just as I am really happy to know that you celebrate since the beginning of your priesthood the Holy Sacrifice in the traditional rite with great spiritual fruit for your faithful.
I have often had the opportunity to listen to your homilies, always well formulated and from which a great supernatural inspiration shines forth. From your words I understand what an inestimable source not only of spiritual progress, but also of ascetic and mystical growth, is the Liturgy of the Holy Church.
Unfortunately, difficult times are preparing, at least to hear the rumors coming from Rome about the limitations to the Motu Proprio that the enemies of the Mass are preparing. Not only the laity, but also and above all we Ministers of God will be asked for a courageous witness, which will make us understand that “obedire oportet Deo magis quam hominibus”(Acts 5:29), if men of the Church abuse their authority in damage of souls and against the glory of the divine Majesty.
I therefore urge you to persevere in the words of the Apostle: “Prædica verbum, insta opportune, importune: argue, obsecra, increpa in omni patientia, et doctrina” (2 Tim 4: 2). In this month dedicated to the Most Sacred Heart of Jesus, we are reminded of the promise that the Lord made, to the priests who will carry out the pious practice of the Nine First Fridays: “I will give priests the gift of moving hearts more hardened”. Let us therefore pray that we can also move the hardened hearts of our Shepherds, to snatch them from the flames of Hell and have them as valiant leaders in the battle that is being prepared alongside Christ the King.
Let us continue to live with generous zeal the expiatory and reparative nature of our Priesthood, on the model of Our Lord Sovereign Priest: may the Most Sacred Heart spur us to make reparation for the injuries to which it is made the object, in particular those that come to Him from His Ministers and those whom He constituted in the fullness of the Levitical Order. May the oblation of ourself merit their conversion.
Joining every day my prayers to yours for the USA, I invoke the most abundant graces on you, on your loved ones and on the faithful entrusted to your pastoral care, while I impart my fatherly Blessing to you with all my heart.
+ Carlo Maria Viganò, Archbishop[/font][/size]
Title: Re: +Vigano Refutes de Mattei!
Post by: Ladislaus on June 24, 2021, 03:01:14 PM
[size={defaultattr}][font={defaultattr}]
[quoting Michael Matt]
If he has changed his outlook over the past couple of years, it is perfectly consistent with the transformation we’ve all seen in those priests who, after returning to the Traditional Latin Mass, come to a more fundamental understanding of the depth of the ʀɛʋօʟutιօn in the Church.
[/font][/size]

This was precisely what I wrote after Mattei's baseless allegation.  ["baseless" is the term they programmed people with to discredit those who claimed election fraud ... so I think I'll start using it here].
Title: Re: +Vigano Refutes de Mattei!
Post by: Cera on June 24, 2021, 03:51:28 PM
I've not been a fan of de Mattei since realizing that he's a Plinio devotee, and I don't read his writings (until now). I'm not surprised that he's taken this stand against +Vigano.

De Mattei is a layman, but he seems to think that he has the authority to rebuke an Archbishop (of course many Archbishops in the conciliar church need to be rebuked, but not +Vigano). Since Mattei thinks of himself as a member of the Elite, perhaps he feels qualified to render a judgment against +Vigano. That's how the TFP folks operate. The Elites, in a TFP world, have a lot of power. Or they think that they should have.
Well said, Meg. As pointed out on an earlier post, Christ established a hierarchical institution, and it is through that hierarchy that His Church will ultimately be restored.
It is not Catholic for a mere layman to engage in calumny against an Archbishop. Even IF the false charges were true, it is inappropriate for a layman to publicly challenge a member of the Catholic hierarchy, unless of course if in defense of the faith.

On the other hand, Mattei is a Plinio-devotee. Let us not forget the words of Bishop Meyer, who had previously been deluded by the Plinio-worshipping cult for 30 years. After received letters from anguished parents who had lost their children to this cult, the Bishop publicly came out against them.
He called Tradition Family and Property an anti-Catholic, anti-clerical heretical sect.

Mattei has just proved his point.


This letter was published in the Campos daily, La Folha de Manhspan in 1991; the original text, however, is dated 1984, two years after Bishop de Castro Mayer’s break with TFP. It appeared in Le Sel de la Terre, [no. 28, Spring 1999], in an article entitled “Docuмents sur la T.F.P”.


Dear XXXXX,
I owe a response to your grieving letter of September 24, which, as the postmark indicates, you sent me on September 25. [1991]


In this case, I can only offer the sole advice: pray, pray much, above all the Rosary or at least the five decades of the Rosary, asking the Virgin Mother, Mediatrix of all graces, to enlighten your son and make him see that TFP is an heretical sect because, in fact, although they do not say or write it, TFP lives and behaves in accord with a principle which fundamentally undermines the truth of Christianity, that is, of the Catholic Church.

In fact, it is de fide that Jesus Christ founded His Church — destined to maintain on earth the true worship of God and to lead souls toward eternal salvation — as an unequal society, composed of two classes: one which governs, teaches and sanctifies, composed of members of the clergy, and the other — the faithful — who receive the teaching, are governed and sanctified. This is a de fide dogma.

St. Pius X wrote that the Church is, in its very nature, an unequal society, meaning that it comprises two orders of persons: shepherds and flocks, those who belong to the various ranks of the Hierarchy and the faithful multitude. These two orders are so completely distinct that the Hierarchy alone has the right and authority to guide and govern the members to the Church’s ends, while the duty of the faithful is that of allowing themselves to be governed and to obediently follow the way given by the governing class (The Encyclical, “Vehementer”, February 11, 1906) [7].

And the entire history of the Church, as can be seen in the New Testament, attests to this truth as a fundamental dogma of the Church’s constitution. It was to the Apostles only that Jesus said: Go and teach all nations. Too, the Acts of the Apostles show us the life of the Church in the times following Jesus Christ.

Because of this, it is a heretical subversion to habitually follow a lay person, therefore, not a member of the Hierarchy— as the spokesman of orthodoxy. Thus, they do not look to what the Church says, what the Bishops say, rather what this or that one says…. Nor does it end there: this attitude — even if not openly avowed — actually positions the “leader” as the arbiter of orthodoxy, and is accompanied by a subtle but real mistrust of the hierarchy and of the clergy in general.

There is a visceral anticlericalism in TFP: everything that comes from the clergy is prejudicially received. Basically, it holds that all priests are ignorant, not very zealous or interesting, and have other such qualities. Well, then, keeping in mind the divine Constitution of the Church which was instituted by Jesus Christ, TFP’s habitual anti-clericalism, latent, makes it an heretical sect, and therefore, as I have said, is animated by a principle contrary to the dogma established by Jesus Christ in the constitution of His Church.

Nevertheless, TFP had a healthy beginning. There was a certain evolution of the apostolate carried out by the bi-weekly newspaper of the Marian Congregation of St. Cecelia, titled, O Legionario. As a serious and well intentioned movement, it sought to strengthen the intellectual and religious formation of the members of that Congregation and, consequently, of the bi-weekly’s readers. It was influential throughout Brazil. That was the era of [its] obedience to Monsignors Duarte and Leme.



I accompanied and approved its apostolate, also when it began to stray into an anticlerical spirit, which began by its consolidating its position and then reversing it by putting the clergy in tow behind a charismatic layman, with his monopoly on orthodoxy. Perhaps I gave it support beyond a licit point. I retracted it only when it became clear to me that my warnings were not being taken into consideration. They had become useless.



It is just to observe that the straying of certain members of the hierarchy …explains the TFP scandal, but it doesn’t justify the positions they came to take. Even less so, those of their leader, Plinio.



At this time, as I said at the beginning of this letter, the remedy is prayer. First, because without prayer nothing is obtained: Ask, Our Lord says, and you shall receive. It is necessary to pray, because charismatic fervor produces a certain fanaticism: individuals become incapable of seeing objective reality, of perceiving even fundamental errors, because of this inversion of following a lay person instead of the legitimate Shepherds of the Holy Church. So much more so when, as I have observed, members of the Hierarchy unfortunately and frequently utter words and take positions which any Catholic can see are dissonant from doctrine and from the guidance of the Church of the ages…..


I ask Our Lord that he grant you, and your entire family, a holy and happy Christmas and many years filled with God’s grace.


I ask that you pray for me, Servant in Christ-Jesus,
 

Antonio de Castro Mayer, Bishop Emeritus of Campos
Title: Re: +Vigano Refutes de Mattei!
Post by: Marion on June 25, 2021, 03:00:46 PM
(https://remnantnewspaper.com/web/media/k2/items/cache/76c147b8075525cc36f647fb3886eee5_L.jpg)


This is the most recent image of Viganò, that I could find. Anyone here who knows of a more recent one?
Title: Re: +Vigano Refutes de Mattei!
Post by: Marion on June 25, 2021, 03:02:38 PM
The most recent writing of Viganò (June 24, 2021):


BREAKING: Abp. Viganò Speaks in Support of “Coalition for Canceled Priests”
catholicfamilynews.com (https://catholicfamilynews.com/blog/2021/06/24/breaking-abp-vigano-speaks-in-support-of-coalition-for-canceled-priests/)
Title: Re: +Vigano Refutes de Mattei!
Post by: Meg on June 25, 2021, 03:48:17 PM
On the other hand, Mattei is a Plinio-devotee. Let us not forget the words of Bishop Meyer, who had previously been deluded by the Plinio-worshipping cult for 30 years. After received letters from anguished parents who had lost their children to this cult, the Bishop publicly came out against them.
He called Tradition Family and Property an anti-Catholic, anti-clerical heretical sect.

Mattei has just proved his point.

I agree. It's good to post the words of Bishop Meyer as a reminder. He had good insight into the problem of an anti-clerical cult.

We still do not know who the others were, exactly, who prompted Mattei to speak out against +Vigano. They could have been TFP or Opus Dei, or just plain ol' Modernists who pass as mainstream trads. 
Title: Re: +Vigano Refutes de Mattei!
Post by: Marion on June 25, 2021, 09:49:29 PM
No offense to anybody! Just observing, asking, and worrying.


Some have defended Viganò: Maike Hickson, Brian McCall, etc. Working together with him, on books or whatever. But reading carefully, none of them testify to personal contact, or even video or audio conference.

I don't or wouldn't have any problem with Viganò pushing even indulters in the direction of resistance and sedevacantism. The opposite is the case. But I can remember how I fell for Pfeiffer of Boston, Kentucky, some 8 or 9 years ago. Thanks to God I soon got less naive.

How would the defenders of Viganò look like, if it would turn out, that the past writings were written by some unauthorized phantom writer?

The Italian bloggers would be damaged, too. Tosatti etc. Then Lifesitenews and others in the U.S., too. None of them has come up with: "We have real recent contact to Viganò (not only e-mail). We can testify that de Mattei is plain wrong". All we heard is whining: "How can de Mattei be such a bad person." They even cry "We love Viganò, how can you be so cruel", while the topic is: do they love Viganò or some writings ascribed to Viganò?

And many of them have revenue flowing from spreading "Viganò's" oder Viganò's writings.


No offense to anybody! Just observing, asking, and worrying.
Title: Re: +Vigano Refutes de Mattei!
Post by: Meg on June 26, 2021, 05:11:37 AM
There's no real evidence that +Vigano isn't writing his own articles. 
Title: Re: +Vigano Refutes de Mattei!
Post by: RomanCatholic1953 on June 26, 2021, 08:07:50 AM
There's no real evidence that +Vigano isn't writing his own articles.
Just another made up engineered story to cause divisions among the gullible.
Title: Re: +Vigano Refutes de Mattei!
Post by: Ladislaus on June 26, 2021, 08:57:40 AM
There's no real evidence that +Vigano isn't writing his own articles.

Of course there isn't.

Mattei knows that just by tossing this out there he's sowing FUD so as to discredit +Vigano as much as he can ... because he doesn't like the message.  He knows that he can accomplish that even without proof and puts +Vigano into the unenviable position of having to prove a negative.  Even if +Vigano were to write out a letter on video and hold it up to the camera, they would claim that someone else composed it and he just committed it to memory.  This is a form of calumny and Mattei needs to go to confession.

I compare this to what Bishop Kelly did regarding the validity of the +Thuc line.  None of his arguments have any merit whatsoever, but throwing it out there is enough to cause concern, especially among scrupulous types.
Title: Re: +Vigano Refutes de Mattei!
Post by: B from A on June 26, 2021, 11:06:09 AM
(https://www.cathinfo.com/index.php?topic=62401.msg754453#msg754453)
Quote
Quote from: Marion (https://www.cathinfo.com/index.php?topic=62401.msg754453#msg754453) on Wed Jun 23 2021 00:03:29 GMT-0400 (Eastern Daylight Time)


Quote
"An esteemed historian who writes an approved biography of the leader of a counterfeit-Catholic sect but neglects to inform his readers that the leader's Great Uncle, the pre-eminent formative influence on the leader's life according to the biography, was a Grand Master of the Grand Orient of Brazil.

Plinio Corrêa de Oliveira (man-god of the counterfeit-Catholic sects TFP, TIA, etc.) surely was some sort of gnostic/rosicrucian/freemason/you-name-it, but he wasn't Grand Master of the Grand Orient of Brazil. You can find all those freemason Grand Masters named on pt.wikipedia:

https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grande_Oriente_do_Brasil#Hist%C3%B3rico_de_Gr%C3%A3o-Mestres

and probable also somewhere on:

https://www.gob.org.br


Even though at this point it's a bit of a digression, and perhaps not that important to the discussion - to revisit this point above:  

The quote did not say that Plinio was the Grand Master; it said the "pre-eminent formative influence on [Plineo's] life according to the biography, was a Grand Master of the Grand Orient of Brazil."  

In other words:
- Roberto de Mattei writes a book about Plineo.
- In it, he mentions that the pre-eminent formative influence on Plineo's life was his Great Uncle.
- But RdM does not mention that that uncle who was such a pre-eminent formative influence was a Grand Master of the Grand Orient of Brazil.

At least, that is how I understood the quote.

"The Great Uncle's name was João Alfredo Correia de Oliveira and he was elected Grand Master of the Grand Orient of Brazil in 1881."

Although the wikipedia link above doesn't show João Alfredo Correia de Oliveira listed as Grand Master [imagine wikipedia not being accurate!], there is a wayback page that does.  

https://web.archive.org/web/20141217142024/http://www.museumaconicoparanaense.com/Pot_GOB_GM_Rel.htm

1881/05/05 a 1881/07/04João Alfredo Correia de Oliveira- pede exoneração, em seguida Adj.


Title: Re: +Vigano Refutes de Mattei!
Post by: B from A on June 26, 2021, 11:11:55 AM
Any Italian speakers out there want to volunteer to give us a Cliffs Notes of this talk? 

https://doncurzionitoglia.wordpress.com/2021/06/23/dietro-lattacco-a-vigano-si-intravede-la-mano-di-oscuri-poteri-mondialisti-intervista-di-francesco-toscano-a-don-curzio-nitoglia/

"Behind the attack on Viganó you can glimpse the hand of obscure global powers", interview by Francesco Toscano with Don Curzio Nitoglia

Title: Re: +Vigano Refutes de Mattei!
Post by: Marion on June 26, 2021, 12:35:01 PM
B from A, thank you for the correction and additional information!
Title: Re: +Vigano Refutes de Mattei!
Post by: Marion on June 26, 2021, 12:38:33 PM
Even if +Vigano were to write out a letter on video and hold it up to the camera, they would claim that someone else composed it and he just committed it to memory.  This is a form of calumny and Mattei needs to go to confession.


I wouldn't. If I saw Viganò on a video, saying that de Mattei is plain wrong, I would believe that de Mattei is plain wrong.
Title: Re: +Vigano Refutes de Mattei!
Post by: Cera on June 26, 2021, 02:53:47 PM

I wouldn't. If I saw Viganò on a video, saying that de Mattei is plain wrong, I would believe that de Mattei is plain wrong.
But you read Mattei saying Vigano doesn't write his own material and you do not dismiss it?
Title: Re: +Vigano Refutes de Mattei!
Post by: Romulus on June 26, 2021, 03:46:46 PM

Mattei is just talking, ( I think he is a little envious of all the attention towards Vigano)
Title: Re: +Vigano Refutes de Mattei!
Post by: Marion on June 26, 2021, 08:16:34 PM
But you read Mattei saying Vigano doesn't write his own material and you do not dismiss it?
I don't care whether Viganò uses a typewriter, a typist, a ghost writer, or whatever, as long as he says: "These writings were published under my name, and yes, they express my positions, and yes, I wanted them published."

There have been Italians, who doubted his authorship more than a year or so ago. One Conciliar "priest" wrote about it on some Italian blog. He noticed a change in style in the "Archbishop"s writings. Also, several commenters agreed. This enforced my already existing suspicions. I thought the whole Trump hype was somewhat understandable, but ultimately rather soft-headed.

I don't care about Roberto de Mattei. Even he had published an article in the Italian "Il Tempo" titled "Trump won, now Pope Bergoglio will turn leader of the international leftísts" or similar.

Here on CI, people are waiting for Viganò being consecrated in the rite of the Church, waiting for Viganò accepting the resistance, or even joining the resistance. I don't see any sign that Viganò might be ready to join hollowhoaxdeniers (Williamson).

All want to see a sign. I'm not special. I want to see that the Viganò writings published during the plandemic really are of his.
Title: Re: +Vigano Refutes de Mattei!
Post by: SeanJohnson on June 26, 2021, 08:35:14 PM
I don't care whether Viganò uses a typewriter, a typist, a ghost writer, or whatever, as long as he says: "These writings were published under my name, and yes, they express my positions, and yes, I wanted them published."

There have been Italians, who doubted his authorship more than a year or so ago. One Conciliar "priest" wrote about it on some Italian blog. He noticed a change in style in the "Archbishop"s writings. Also, several commenters agreed. This enforced my already existing suspicions. I thought the whole Trump hype was somewhat understandable, but ultimately rather soft-headed.

I don't care about Roberto de Mattei. Even he had published an article in the Italian "Il Tempo" titled "Trump won, now Pope Bergoglio will turn leader of the international leftísts" or similar.

Here on CI, people are waiting for Viganò being consecrated in the rite of the Church, waiting for Viganò accepting the resistance, or even joining the resistance. I don't see any sign that Viganò might be ready to join hollowhoaxdeniers (Williamson).

All want to see a sign. I'm not special. I want to see that the Viganò writings published during the plandemic really are of his.

Marion-

Brian McCall notes that Vigano has personally given several speeches or conferences in the past year (eg., Jericho; Catholic Identity Conference; 2-3 more), in which the Archbishop has said substantially the same things regarding V2 and the Great Reset as in the letters in which Mattei pretends to find stylistic discrepancies.

Does he have a body double too?
Title: Re: +Vigano Refutes de Mattei!
Post by: Ladislaus on June 26, 2021, 08:37:54 PM
"Behind the attack on Viganó you can glimpse the hand of obscure global powers", interview by Francesco Toscano with Don Curzio Nitoglia

Perhaps they see +Vigano as a threat to their subversion and infiltration of the Church.
Title: Re: +Vigano Refutes de Mattei!
Post by: Marion on June 26, 2021, 09:57:28 PM
Marion-

Brian McCall notes that Vigano has personally given several speeches or conferences in the past year (eg., Jericho; Catholic Identity Conference; 2-3 more), in which the Archbishop has said substantially the same things regarding V2 and the Great Reset as in the letters in which Mattei pretends to find stylistic discrepancies.

Does he have a body double too?

Here's what you quoted from Brian McCall:


Quote
As to this absurd and unfounded accusation that there is some secret behind the scenes author, how does Professor De Mattei explain the fact that many of the interventions of the past year are transcripts of conferences given by Archbishop Viganò personally and recorded in video or audio form (until YouTube deletes them). For example, his text from the Catholic Identity Conference was delivered via video. His speech at the Jericho March in Washington was also preserved in video as was his speech to the Venice Philosophy Festival. Does Professor De Mattei think that there is some Archbishop Viganò impersonator who gave these recorded lectures? The Archbishop himself publicly denied this scurrilous accusation (although I guess De Mattei might claim that was merely his double speaking).

Reading this when you first posted it, I thought Conciliar shill McCall was talking about allegedly deleted videos. Why does he then say "preserved" and not provide a link? Now that you mention it again, I found the "Jericho March" speech on the youtube channel of the Concilar shill, Dr Taylor Marshall:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-BjnxVoHJHw

Well, thanks SeanJohnson, that proves to me that Viganò is alive, probably aware of what is published under his name, and able to disclaim in case folks should publish writings under his name which are not of his. Thank you very much. I hadn't been aware of this. Thank you for your finally successful efforts to convince me.


P.S.: He's optimistic, that the Deep State will fall like Jericho (5:20). I agree. Our Lord sure will come soon to make it happen, we'll hear the seventh trumρet. But I think much more than just the Deep State is the problem. In my mind, it's this whole godless / heretical modern society.