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Author Topic: + Vigano online conference Dec 9  (Read 18102 times)

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Offline MiracleOfTheSun

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Re: + Vigano online conference Dec 9
« Reply #60 on: December 10, 2023, 10:55:40 AM »
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  • It was very satisfying and refreshing to hear someone from outside the usual fold talking on the Church being actively destroyed by an 'ape of a pope' and the Luciferian intelligence of the NWO, etc.  He touched on Bellarmine and added 'we are far beyond heresy'.  He's at a very interesting place and I'm now getting interested in what happens and what he's saying.

    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: + Vigano online conference Dec 9
    « Reply #61 on: December 10, 2023, 11:13:42 AM »
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  • Except that he went far beyond that.  He stated quite clearly the Bellarmine principle that a heretic / apostate cannot be the head of the Church.  He dismissed the formal/material heresy argument typically used by R&R, saying that Bergoglio's status goes far beyond that of being heretical on an isolated point or two or three, but crosses over into apostasy.  He speculates that Begoglio is an agent of the enemies of the Church, operating under Luciferian intelligence, infiltrating the Church on behalf of whoever he reports to in order to destroy it.  He also stated ... and listed by name ... J23, P6, JP1, JP2, and B16 as complicit in the revolution, though he stopped short of questioning their legitimacy.  Nevertheless, he's a very small logical leap from admitting that there are serious problems with the legitimacy of those also.  He states that we can be morally certain that Bergoglio is not pope, but don't have the authority to "declare" it, settle it legally ... so eschewing a dogmatic SVism (holding more to a position like that of Father Jenkins, for example).  He says that St. Robert envisioned a scenario where there was a heretical pope and the Church would deal with him, and not one where the entire hierarchy (that was supposed to deal with him) would have gone just as corrupt as Bergoglio, that this Crisis is unprecedented, and believes that this can only be solved by divine intervention.

    He disparaged those (Trad, Inc.) who go after Bergoglio but won't attack V2 and Bergoglio's predecessors, referring to them twice as "Montinians".  He also pushed aside the SSPX position.

    So he went FAR beyond his vitium consensus argument.  In fact, while making a passing reference to the "Canon Law" argument (from people like Barnhardt, one of the hosts of this conference), he actually subtly undermined it, by stating that this situation far transcends a consideration of legal technicalities, and in a sense went beyond his own vitium consensus position as well.

    So +Vigano has gone far beyond the "lack of consent" argument in this latest speech.  It was brilliant really.

    Thanks for the analysis!

    I will admit, with all my other reservations, that Archbishop Vigano has gone further than any other Consiliar prelate in speaking the logical truth about the hijacking and corruption of the visible, Church since 1958. 

    But most of us know, it was happening way before then.

    Going back to your 2019 Habemus Papam video, do we know Archbishop Vigano's response to the extraordinary conclave election?

    Did he accept?  If so, did he take a papal name? 

     Cardinal Siri did this much in 1958 when he was elected Pope.  The Cardinal of Genoa accepted the office and took the name Gregory XVII.  But he was immediately threatened and disposed by ecclesiastical freemasons within the Church under the direction of the Jєωs.




    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi


    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: + Vigano online conference Dec 9
    « Reply #62 on: December 10, 2023, 11:22:04 AM »
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  • But wait.... one more observation:



    What do the red roses symbolize in this photo?  (Don't say, "Aw man... it's just decorative flowers!")

    Ah yes, and you know where I'm headed with this comment.

    Perhaps the Bishop of Broadstairs, with a Rose embedded within his Apostolic Coat of Arms could comment?

    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi

    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: + Vigano online conference Dec 9
    « Reply #63 on: December 10, 2023, 11:35:54 AM »
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  • Quote
    the "lack of consent" argument
    This argument is just one of many various arguments one can make against V2 popes.  Vigano was simply pointing out the legal effects of having a lack of intention (ie its null and void).  This isn’t the main argument, which is doctrinal/theological, and +Vigano has covered this too in the past.  

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: + Vigano online conference Dec 9
    « Reply #64 on: December 10, 2023, 12:06:40 PM »
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  • This argument is just one of many various arguments one can make against V2 popes.  Vigano was simply pointing out the legal effects of having a lack of intention (ie its null and void).  This isn’t the main argument, which is doctrinal/theological, and +Vigano has covered this too in the past. 

    I put these types of arguments in the category of explanations for how/why the See is vacant.  They're speculative.  I personally hold to the Siri Theory.  Others have floated the notion that Montini was replaced by a double (and held in a dungeon), or else that he was being blackmailed.  So they're really somewhat peripheral to the main problem, that we see a guy who's clearly not Catholic sitting on the See of Peter.

    +Vigano went far beyond the various canonical explanations for how we find ourselves in this current situation, but he made it clear that this crisis is profound beyond mere canonical technicalities and that we're in the foretold Great Apostasy.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: + Vigano online conference Dec 9
    « Reply #65 on: December 10, 2023, 12:12:04 PM »
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  • Going back to your 2019 Habemus Papam video, do we know Archbishop Vigano's response to the extraordinary conclave election?

    Did he accept?  If so, did he take a papal name?

     Cardinal Siri did this much in 1958 when he was elected Pope.  The Cardinal of Genoa accepted the office and took the name Gregory XVII.  But he was immediately threatened and disposed by ecclesiastical freemasons within the Church under the direction of the Jєωs.


    Oh, I've never heard him mention his "election" by those Eastern Rite bishops, and I doubt he would consider it legitimate.  I post that somewhat tongue-in-cheek from time to time.

    I myself believe that the Siri Theory is extremely credible and would explain everything that's gone on.  But I think that +Vigano is getting warmer and warmer with each statement he makes.  He's hovering over the target.

    Starting with Roncalli, we had conscious evildoers infiltrate / usurp the papal office with the deliberate intention of destroying it.  These V2 papal claimants are not just poor, confused, misguided souls whose minds were contaminated by Modernism.  They were deliberate and conscious enemy agents intent upon destroying the Church ... Communist / Masonic / Jєωιѕн agents.  That's why I believe Our Lady spoke obliquely about the "errors of Russia," not Russia, but the ERRORS of Russia, i.e. Jew-inspired Communism / Masonry ... and she likely foretold in the Third Secret that these Jew / Communist / Masonic agents would infiltrate the papacy.  +Vigano basically said exactly that about Bergoglio, and might be inching toward realizing this also of Roncalli, Montini, Luciani, Wojtyla, and Ratzinger as well.

    Here's why I think they went the Siri route.  They knew that if the installed some occult heretic / Mason / Communist / Jew into the papal office, the office itself would be protected by the Holy Spirit from rolling out the damage they intended ... even if it mean God striking him dead.  They thought they had their man in Pius IX, but the latter was converted from his extreme liberalism ... due to the graces of the office.  They could have threatened Siri before the election and had him just refuse it outright.  But that wouldn't have served their purposes.  They needed him to get elected and to accept because at that moment he became the rightful legitimate pope.  Then they threatened him AFTER he had accepted, uncanonically removing him but leaving the subsequent election impeded or obstructed by Siri's rightful hold on it.  This way, these men were not even canonically in possession of the office.  It's to Roncalli that I believe St. Francis referred in his prophecy about the "uncanonically elected pope".

    Online Catholic Knight

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    Re: + Vigano online conference Dec 9
    « Reply #66 on: December 10, 2023, 02:56:29 PM »
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  • Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: + Vigano online conference Dec 9
    « Reply #67 on: December 10, 2023, 03:17:51 PM »
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  • [VIDEO]

    Transcript

    He does speak very slowly, and I've found that listening at 2x- or 1.5x- speed works better.


    Offline Yeti

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    Re: + Vigano online conference Dec 9
    « Reply #68 on: December 10, 2023, 03:32:03 PM »
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  • From the speech:


    Quote
    When Saint Robert Bellarmine hypothesized, as an academic study, the question of whether a Roman Pontiff could fall into heresy, he imagined a Pope who, while convinced that he continued to hold the Catholic faith, adhered materially or formally to one particular heresy



    :facepalm: This is completely false. Why are people always making up garbage to counteract the teachings of theologians on a heretical pope, and always in a way that benefits the heretics? Here is what St. Robert Bellarmine actually said:


    Quote
    This principle is most certain. The non-Christian cannot in any way be Pope, as Cajetan himself admits (ib. c. 26). The reason for this is that he cannot be head of what he is not a member; now he who is not a Christian is not a member of the Church, and a manifest heretic is not a Christian, as is clearly taught by St. Cyprian (lib. 4, epist. 2), St. Athanasius (Scr. 2 cont. Arian.), St. Augustine (lib. de great. Christ. cap. 20), St. Jerome (contra Lucifer.) and others; therefore the manifest heretic cannot be Pope.


    Where in that quote, or anywhere else in that entire passage, does it say what Vigano claims it said? And how convenient that he makes something up in order to prevent this teaching of St. Robert Bellarmine from applying to Bergoglio.

    Offline Yeti

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    Re: + Vigano online conference Dec 9
    « Reply #69 on: December 10, 2023, 03:39:25 PM »
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  • I posted before I read more of the passage. It just keeps getting worse and worse.


    Quote
    Vigano:
    Bellarmine could never have imagined that an emissary of Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ could go so far as to be elected pope with the purpose of demolishing the Church from within, usurping and abusing the very power of the papacy itself against the papacy. [This is ridiculous. That's what this whole passage I quoted above is talking about.] Nor could he have imagined that a hypothetical pope would surpass mere heresy and embrace all-out apostasy. [That's also false. The passage talks about a non-Christian and how he cannot be pope. And heresy and apostasy both equally separate someone from the Church, according to traditional theology and canon law, even if the new church does not teach this] No Doctor of the Church has ever contemplated the possibility of an apostate pope, [What??! Does this guy even know how to read??! Did he even read St. Robert's teachings on the heretical pope? What exactly is he quoting here, anyway?] or of an election falsified and manipulated by powers avowedly hostile to Christ, [foreseen already by Pope Paul IV in cuм Ex Apostolatus, where he legislated that such an election would be automatically invalid] because such an enormity could only happen in a unique and extraordinary context such as that of the final persecution foretold by the Prophet Daniel and described by Saint Paul.
    .

    I quote the passage of St. Robert Bellarmine below for convenience:


    Quote
    This principle is most certain. The non-Christian cannot in any way be Pope, as Cajetan himself admits (ib. c. 26). The reason for this is that he cannot be head of what he is not a member; now he who is not a Christian is not a member of the Church, and a manifest heretic is not a Christian, as is clearly taught by St. Cyprian (lib. 4, epist. 2), St. Athanasius (Scr. 2 cont. Arian.), St. Augustine (lib. de great. Christ. cap. 20), St. Jerome (contra Lucifer.) and others; therefore the manifest heretic can
    not be Pope.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: + Vigano online conference Dec 9
    « Reply #70 on: December 10, 2023, 05:41:22 PM »
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  • I posted before I read more of the passage. It just keeps getting worse and worse.

    I quote the passage of St. Robert Bellarmine below for convenience:

    not be Pope.

    What keeps getting worse is your reading comprehension and your bad will.  If you actually read the context of what he's saying, he's referring to the so-called "Bellarmine" opinion of the ipso facto deposition of a heretical pope, and he's saying that it's even WORSE than what Bellarmine had in mind.  Bellarmine's had in mind the scenario of a simple heretic, someone, like say the famous case of John XXII, where he embraced a heretical proposition.  +Vigano says that Bergoglio has certainly done that on numerous occasions, but that he goes far BEYOND that, that he's actually a deliberate infiltrator.

    Are you an idiot or just operating on sheer wicked malice toward +Vigano?  He's not rejecting Bellarmine's opinion, you blithering moron, but saying that not only does that apply (he cited that a heretic cannot be the head of the Church), but that it goes way beyond that, to the end times Great Apostasy, where the papacy has been usurped and infiltrated by Luciferians.

    Since you have malice toward this man, you read stuff into his text that isn't there, pretending as though he's rejecting Bellarmine (and that you need to defend him), when what he's saying is that not only does Bellarmine apply, but that this scenario is Bellarmine on steroids.  I envision you sitting there at your keyboard reading +Vigano looking for stuff you can distort, with flames of malice coming from your nostrils and drool coming from the corners of your mouth, as your malice has reduced your brain to a puddle of mush.


    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: + Vigano online conference Dec 9
    « Reply #71 on: December 10, 2023, 06:33:55 PM »
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  • Also, he says that St. Robert Bellarmine never envisioned a situation where there's no one left in the hierarchy to call out a heretical Pope, but they would deal with it ... whereas now the entire hierarchy are corrupted and are never going to remove him, so this situation is beyond human remedy and can only be solved by God.
    Well, that is pretty close to what St Robert Bellarmine did actually say, not specifically with reference to heresy and a corrupt hierarchy, but in terms of a pope wanting to destroy the Church with no human remedy. I don't think we can say that he did not envisage this possibility:

    On The Church, Vol I, Bk II, On The Authority of Councils, Ch XIX, Protestant Responses are Refuted:

    In the second place he proposes arguments of John Gerson:...

    2. The Pope is a member of the Church, therefore he is lesser than the whole, which is the Church, and may and must be cut off if he would corrupt the Church because it is from natural law that members corrupting the whole body must be cut off...

    To the second consequent it can be said: firstly... secondly...

    But they will say, therefore, only the Church is without remedy if it has a bad Pope, and the Pope can disturb all things unpunished, and destroy and no one will be able to resist.

    I respond: No wonder, if the Church remains without an efficacious human remedy, seeing that its safety does not rest principally upon human industry, but divine protection, since God is its king. Therefore, even if the Church could not depose a Pope, still, it may and must beg the Lord that He would apply the remedy, and it is certain that God has care of its safety, that He would either convert the Pope or abolish him from the midst before he destroys the Church. Nevertheless, it does not follow from here that it is not lawful to resist a Pope destroying the Church: for it is lawful to admonish him while preserving all reverence, and to modestly correct him, even to oppose him with force and arms if he means to destroy the Church. For to resist and repel by force of arms, no authority is required. See more on this with Juan Torquemada, lib. 2 cap 106

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: + Vigano online conference Dec 9
    « Reply #72 on: December 10, 2023, 07:20:54 PM »
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  • .

    Did he explain why he calls himself "Archbishop" and says at the same time that he is not a member of the hierarchy or can't remove Bergoglio?

    I also don't understand why he doesn't call out the conservative members of the hierarchy (if that's what he thinks they are) for refusing to remove Bergoglio.
    And why, if he truly has issues with the New Rites of Ordination (as he stated in his new newsletter announcing his new seminary) hasn't he been conditionally consecrated in the Old Rite?  And if he has been conditionally consecrated, why is he keeping it a secret/not making it public?

    Offline Persto

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    Re: + Vigano online conference Dec 9
    « Reply #73 on: December 10, 2023, 08:18:31 PM »
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  • And why, if he truly has issues with the New Rites of Ordination (as he stated in his new newsletter announcing his new seminary) hasn't he been conditionally consecrated in the Old Rite?  And if he has been conditionally consecrated, why is he keeping it a secret/not making it public?
    Good point!
    Persevere...
    Fear not, nor be any way discouraged- Duet.1:21

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: + Vigano online conference Dec 9
    « Reply #74 on: December 11, 2023, 06:08:12 AM »
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  • Transcript
    Thanks for the transcript, CK.  I didn't see this earlier.  I much prefer to read the actual words than watch a video with subtitles.