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Author Topic: + Vigano online conference Dec 9  (Read 19134 times)

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Offline Persto

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Re: + Vigano online conference Dec 9
« Reply #30 on: December 09, 2023, 04:39:46 PM »
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  • .

    :laugh1:

    I just got off the Vigano train, myself. When I saw his post on Twitter that his arguments should not be interpreted to mean he agrees with the arguments of sedevacantists.

    For nearly two years he's been talking incessantly about all kinds of things, mostly not related to the Faith, and people have been arguing that he is secretly sedevacantist because he always refers to Francis as "Bergoglio". We have had to try to read his mind to figure out if he is sedevacantist or not. Why couldn't he just tell us? Why all the mind games? But during all that time, it's true, he WAS giving all kinds of arguments that would support sedevacantism, without saying he believed the seat was empty.

    Then, finally, a week or two ago he comes out and says (FINALLY) that he doesn't think Francis is the pope. Finally.

    But wait! Days later, he responds to Schneider, who had responded to the previous statement, and tells Schneider on Twitter all kinds of reasons why Francis can't be the pope, but then .... concludes with the statement that his words should not be interpreted to mean he agrees with the opinions of sedevacantists.

    What??! :facepalm:

    I'm tired of him playing these sorts of mind games, and I don't know what he believes, and neither does anyone else, probably including him, so there's no point listening to him anymore. That's what I've concluded.

    Wake me up when he's trying to organize a council to have Francis excommunicated and deposed.

    Until then, I'm not going to have him messing with my head anymore. I've had enough of this nonsense.
    Yeti, good post!
    Persevere...
    Fear not, nor be any way discouraged- Duet.1:21

    Offline Persto

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    Re: + Vigano online conference Dec 9
    « Reply #31 on: December 09, 2023, 04:42:06 PM »
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  • Not sure what you mean by "spotlight put on him." After all, Vigano has for the most part put the spotlight on himself. Over the last few years (five years or so?) he has published his communications through quite a few different news sources and journalists, some of whom are affiliated with Opus Dei. Since he has put himself out there as an authority on all church matters having to do with the Crisis, then he's gonna get some scrutiny. That's just how it is.
    Meg, good post!
    Persevere...
    Fear not, nor be any way discouraged- Duet.1:21


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: + Vigano online conference Dec 9
    « Reply #32 on: December 09, 2023, 05:48:09 PM »
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  • +Vigano's talk is amazing.  It's a must listen.

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: + Vigano online conference Dec 9
    « Reply #33 on: December 09, 2023, 06:09:39 PM »
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  • +Vigano's talk is amazing.  It's a must listen.
    Lad,

    Do you have a link?
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: + Vigano online conference Dec 9
    « Reply #34 on: December 09, 2023, 06:11:14 PM »
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  • Lad,

    Do you have a link?


    There's no separate link yet, but if you go here and "rewind the time" to +Vigano's speach, which started about 45 minutes ago, you can see it again.



    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: + Vigano online conference Dec 9
    « Reply #35 on: December 09, 2023, 06:16:59 PM »
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  • In summary, +Vigano holds that this crisis is unprecedented by anything in Church history, that it could only be part of the foretold Great Apostasy.

    He takes a bit of a shot at the Bennyvacantists, a very subtle diplomatic shot, saying that even though it's possible that Ratzinger didn't resign properly, that this problem goes way beyond a canonical problem.  It also goes beyond Bergoglio's adherence to this or that heresy (of which he said, as an aside, that he's done many times), but to an open apostasy.

    He says that Bergoglio is an infiltrator working under Luciferian intelligence on behalf of the enemies of the Church intent upon infiltrating and destroying it.

    He cuts into those who claim that the problem is limited to Bergoglio, but says it started with Vatican II, the 1789 in the Church, and listed John XIII, Paul VI, JP I, JPI, and BXVI (much to Barnhardt's chagrin no doubt) as accomplices in the promotion of their acceptance of the Masonic principles "liberte, egalite, fraternite" into the Church.  He basically says it's not just Bergoglio but all these V2 papal claimants were in on it, in on the revolution.

    He takes a swipe at SSPX for fence-sitting and others who play ball with Bergoglio, holding that there must be a complete break, where we're either for the Church or against it.

    He implies a form of sede-impoundsim, sede-privationism, where he says we have moral certainty that Jorge is not the pope, though we lack the authority to publicly declare him a non-pope.

    Also, he says that St. Robert Bellarmine never envisioned a situation where there's no one left in the hierarchy to call out a heretical Pope, but they would deal with it ... whereas now the entire hierarchy are corrupted and are never going to remove him, so this situation is beyond human remedy and can only be solved by God.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: + Vigano online conference Dec 9
    « Reply #36 on: December 09, 2023, 06:20:18 PM »
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  • In a word, he shot down the Barnhardt / Mazza / Kramer Bennyvacantist position as being too myopic, focused on Jorge and focused on Canonical issues, where this goes WAY beyond all that.  You can tell after +Vigano's speech that they're very much muted ... and yet they continue to go back to focusing on Benny's non-resignation as all this is about.  Idiots.  Did they hear or understand a word of what +Vigano was telling them?

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: + Vigano online conference Dec 9
    « Reply #37 on: December 09, 2023, 06:32:40 PM »
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  • He coins a new term also, calling those who criticize Bergoglio without recognizing the problem with Vatican II and the other Conciliar popes as "Montinians" ... basically talking about Barnhardt, Mazza, Kramer, and other Bennyvacantists.

    :laugh1:


    Offline Viva Cristo Rey

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    Re: + Vigano online conference Dec 9
    « Reply #38 on: December 09, 2023, 06:47:48 PM »
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  • How was talk?
    May God bless you and keep you

    Offline Mr G

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    Re: + Vigano online conference Dec 9
    « Reply #39 on: December 09, 2023, 06:56:43 PM »
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  • He coins a new term also, calling those who criticize Bergoglio without recognizing the problem with Vatican II and the other Conciliar popes as "Montinians" ... basically talking about Barnhardt, Mazza, Kramer, and other Bennyvacantists.

    :laugh1:
    But Fr. Kramer has been recognizing the problems of Vatican II for a long time, here is one example:



    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: + Vigano online conference Dec 9
    « Reply #40 on: December 09, 2023, 07:05:42 PM »
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  • +Vigano's talk is amazing.  It's a must listen.

    I agree.  Hopefully a transcript will be made available.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: + Vigano online conference Dec 9
    « Reply #41 on: December 09, 2023, 07:10:22 PM »
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  • But Fr. Kramer has been recognizing the problems of Vatican II for a long time, here is one example:

    Not really.  He thinks that the problem is with Bergoglio and there was nothing wrong with Ratzinger.

    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: + Vigano online conference Dec 9
    « Reply #42 on: December 09, 2023, 07:13:01 PM »
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  • .....he says we have moral certainty that Jorge is not the pope, though we lack the authority to publicly declare him a non-pope.

    I took that as meaning that we do not have the jurisdiction to depose Jorge Bergoglio.  Rather, it is up to the cardinals and/or bishops to do so.

    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: + Vigano online conference Dec 9
    « Reply #43 on: December 09, 2023, 07:14:19 PM »
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  • In summary, +Vigano holds that this crisis is unprecedented by anything in Church history, that it could only be part of the foretold Great Apostasy.

    He takes a bit of a shot at the Bennyvacantists, a very subtle diplomatic shot, saying that even though it's possible that Ratzinger didn't resign properly, that this problem goes way beyond a canonical problem.  It also goes beyond Bergoglio's adherence to this or that heresy (of which he said, as an aside, that he's done many times), but to an open apostasy.

    He says that Bergoglio is an infiltrator working under Luciferian intelligence on behalf of the enemies of the Church intent upon infiltrating and destroying it.

    He cuts into those who claim that the problem is limited to Bergoglio, but says it started with Vatican II, the 1789 in the Church, and listed John XIII, Paul VI, JP I, JPI, and BXVI (much to Barnhardt's chagrin no doubt) as accomplices in the promotion of their acceptance of the Masonic principles "liberte, egalite, fraternite" into the Church.  He basically says it's not just Bergoglio but all these V2 papal claimants were in on it, in on the revolution.

    He takes a swipe at SSPX for fence-sitting and others who play ball with Bergoglio, holding that there must be a complete break, where we're either for the Church or against it.

    He implies a form of sede-impoundsim, sede-privationism, where he says we have moral certainty that Jorge is not the pope, though we lack the authority to publicly declare him a non-pope.

    Also, he says that St. Robert Bellarmine never envisioned a situation where there's no one left in the hierarchy to call out a heretical Pope, but they would deal with it ... whereas now the entire hierarchy are corrupted and are never going to remove him, so this situation is beyond human remedy and can only be solved by God.

    Good synopsis Lads.  Thank you.
    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi

    Offline Ekim

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    Re: + Vigano online conference Dec 9
    « Reply #44 on: December 09, 2023, 07:21:41 PM »
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  • In a word, he shot down the Barnhardt / Mazza / Kramer Bennyvacantist position as being too myopic, focused on Jorge and focused on Canonical issues, where this goes WAY beyond all that.  You can tell after +Vigano's speech that they're very much muted ... and yet they continue to go back to focusing on Benny's non-resignation as all this is about.  Idiots.  Did they hear or understand a word of what +Vigano was telling them?
    Great Summary. I think Dr Mazza confused the Creeds because he got distracted trying to get organized.  I was a bit disappointed that Fr Kramer just read an article, but maybe his mind isn’t as sharp as it once was and he didn’t want to miss anything. +AB Vigano was amazing. I’m anxious to hear what becomes of his new seminary and yes, Dr Mazza is a big fan of JP2 but hopefully grace will soak in and the light turned on.