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Author Topic: + Vigano online conference Dec 9  (Read 13537 times)

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Offline DecemRationis

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Re: + Vigano online conference Dec 9
« Reply #135 on: December 15, 2023, 07:10:35 AM »
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  • Yes, one more reason why Montini could not have been the pope.  An Antipope and bishops united to him could teach error in an ecuмenical council till the cows come home.

    During the Arian crisis, 97-99% of episcopal sees has been usurped by Arians.  Had Liberius gone Arian and taught Arianism, that would not be a defection of the Church, but the usurpation of the Holy See by an Arian.

    I know your "solution": just say Montini and all those bishops, cardinals weren't Catholic. Easy. Too easy. And very convenient.

    And as I've said, ignoring the purpose behind the "indefectibility" of the Church - as indicated by Pius IX in Etsi Multi, that was understood as a protection of the Church by the Holy Ghost such that a total usurpation of the hierarchy, issuing in heretical and erroneous decrees of an ecuмenical council, was impossible.

    As I said, the "Old Catholics" could have simply objected to Pius IX and those bishops who issued Vatican I, as you do to Montini and his cohorts regarding Vatican II, that they were not true popes and bishops, not part of the indefectible Catholic Church, but the OCs were - as you and others now assert with regard to the Concilair popes/bishops and the overwhelming majority of the Novus Ordites in union with them (just as the overwhelming majority of the then Catholic world  were in union with Pius IX and the bishops).  :confused:

    "Had Liberius gone Arian . . . " He didn't. I'm pretty positive you have argued here that he didn't. So it's just speculation that can't be precedential, and not analogous. 

    And we KNOW there were members of the hierarchy with "governing authority," members of the "governing body," that were not Arian during that crisis - St. Athanasius, St. Basil of Caesarea, St. Gregory of Nαzιanzus, and St. Ambrose - for starters. To which we can (you would, yes?) add Pope Liberius himself. So, again, not "precedential" and analogous to the crisis of the last at least 40 or so years. 



    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.


    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: + Vigano online conference Dec 9
    « Reply #136 on: December 15, 2023, 07:14:35 AM »
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  • DR, in that quote from Etsi Multa there is no definition of "the Church." And its subject matter is not about defining the doctrine of "indefectibility of the Church." It mentions the concept of "indefectibility of the Church" in relation to the specific situation of the Old Catholics and their criticisms of the Roman Catholic Church.

    Etsi Multa states that those specifically referenced, the Old Catholics, had denied "the indefectibility of the Church." Those offenders, the Old Catholics, were claiming that "the definitions" that came out of Vatican I were heretical "definitions." So the Old Catholics were suggesting that the Roman Catholic Church had "defected" from the ancient, immemorial faith and this "defection" justified the actions of the Old Catholics to separate and form their own Church.

    Of course Pius IX is condemning the Old Catholic heretics and schismatics. He, Pius IX, is doing so from the perspective of someone who holds "the true faith." Pius IX famously said that he "is the Church," and in saying that he was simply stating, in a slightly different way, what Pius XII said in Mystici Corporis, that "the Church" is made up of those who "profess the true faith."

    Now, moving forward to Vatican II, you seem to be suggesting that when a traditionalist says that certain propositions of Vatican II were heretical, that the traditionalist is doing the same thing that the Old Catholics did. But that is not correct. The traditionalist continues to "profess the true faith." The traditionalists are playing the role of Pius IX.  It is the heretical members of the institutional conciliar Church, the infiltrators, who were playing the role of the Old Catholics in the post-VII era. But they were now doing so from inside the Church rather from outside the Church as the Old Catholics tried to do.

    Your second quote poses no problem for the doctrine of the "indefectibility of the Church." First off, it is from a draft docuмent. Why are you even quoting it as if it is the official teaching of the Church? Second, what does "governing body" mean exactly? Is a bishop not a person who represents the "governing body" of the Church? You seem to jump to an interpretation of those words to mean the full world-wide diocesan structure of Church government. But, you have to admit that you are reading that interpretation into those two words aren't you? Still, the statement is not magisterial, so I don't know why you are even quoting it.

    Angelus, Angelus. I'll leave this discussion, as there appears to be no further point.

    If anyone wants to believe that you've dealt with the substance of my argument with regard to Etsi Multi and the Fathers of Vatican I with your response above, may God bless them, and you. 

    I'll leave you with the last word.

    DR
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.


    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: + Vigano online conference Dec 9
    « Reply #137 on: December 15, 2023, 07:23:55 AM »
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  • Yes.  But V2 didn't "teach/define" as any previous ecuмenical council of the past.  They called it a "pastoral council", the first in history.  So it's an apples to oranges comparison between V2 and any prior ecuмenical council.  V2 was only ecuмenical in its "global invitation to participate".  It was not ecuмenical in the sense that it "taught doctrine to be believed by all catholics, everywhere".  In fact, V2 never defined anything, nor did it oblige anyone to believe anything.  It merely gave "pastoral guidance" for the "application of doctrine in daily life".

    Yes, but how did they define "governing body"?  You can't just interpret this on your own.  My interpretation is that 'governing body' means the govt operation of the Vatican state, and the college of Cardinals being intact, and the visible head of the Church, the pope, holding his office (heretic or not).  Governing refers to the human, visible portion of the Church, which still remains today.

    You may totally disagree and that's fine.  But what matters is Vatican I's definition.

    Pax,

    So a "pastoral" ecuмenical council of bishops in union with the pope can teach error and heresy to the universal Church? The Sedes have ripped that to shreds already. You can read all about it here and elsewhere.

    You say I "can't just interpret this on {my} own," and then immediately go into, "my {i.e, your} interpretation . . .," on your own. :facepalm:

    You have a current "governing body" of bishops, cardinals and a pope who don't govern, and can't tell you to do squat, or hit you with any sanction for telling them to get lost. I'll keep my understanding of "governing body," thank you. Which I'm sure would be the understanding of the manualists and theologians, but I'm not going take the time to research it, as it won't matter.

    I think I'll bow out of this discussion.

    Have a blessed Advent,

    DR
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.