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Author Topic: +Vigano on the Responsa to Traditionis Custodes  (Read 7255 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: +Vigano on the Responsa to Traditionis Custodes
« Reply #35 on: January 04, 2022, 01:23:57 PM »
Quote from: Clemens Maria on January 04, 2022, 12:37:47 PM
Joe Rogan is more Catholic than Bergoglio.

So was Billy Graham.
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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: +Vigano on the Responsa to Traditionis Custodes
« Reply #36 on: January 04, 2022, 01:30:00 PM »
Quote from: s2srea on January 04, 2022, 06:49:21 AM
Easy. The pope is human.

Also, Sede v will never find a true pope. It's a dead end and a detrimental position. Sorry.

This, the "pope is human" answer is one of the least Catholic things I've seen here in a while ... in how you're applying it.  We're not talking about pope as human being but the pope as the Rock of the Church, in his Magisterium, which has always been taught to be protected by the Holy Spirit.  Obviously the pope is human, but he's also the Vicar of Christ, and with that come certain promises of Our Lord regarding the indefectibility of the Magisterium.

These stupid "pop" armchair theological maxims do a lot of damage and they're applied in a decidedly un-Catholic manner.  Your "EASY" ends up being heretical in its implications.

Do you even believe in the indefectibility of the Church and the protection of the Holy Spirit over the Church, or do you believe it to be a PURELY human institution that can fail and falter as any human being might.

If Bergoglio and his predecessors were going around worshipping in pachamama temples on their own and Vatican II and the NOM had not happened, most of us would hardly care less; it's not our problem and let the Cardinals and bishops deal with him.  Where it becomes our problem is when they're trying to impose a false Magisterium and blasphemous Rite of Worship on the entire Body of the Church, and we're left in the position of determining whether we can stay subject to them, as there's no salvation without subjection to the Holy Father.
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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: +Vigano on the Responsa to Traditionis Custodes
« Reply #37 on: January 04, 2022, 01:38:14 PM »
No, Traditional Catholics agree with where the Church is.  That's nonsense.  We disagree on various legal matters, but Archbishop Lefebvre clears it up.


Quote
To stay inside the Church, or to put oneself inside the Church—what does that mean? Firstly, what Church are we talking about? If you mean the Conciliar Church, then we who have struggled against the Council for twenty years because we want the Catholic Church, we would have to re-enter this Conciliar Church in order, supposedly, to make it Catholic. That is a complete illusion. ...

Obviously, we are against the Conciliar Church which is virtually schismatic, even if they deny it. In practice, it is a Church virtually excommunicated because it is a Modernist Church. ... That is no longer the Catholic Church: that is the Conciliar Church with all its unpleasant consequences. ...

This talk about the “visible Church” on the part of Dom Gerard and Mr. Madiran is childish. It is incredible that anyone can talk of the “visible Church”, meaning the Conciliar Church as opposed to the Catholic Church which we are trying to represent and continue. I am not saying that we are the Catholic Church. I have never said so. No one can reproach me with ever having wished to set myself up as pope. But, we truly represent the Catholic Church such as it was before, because we are continuing what it always did. It is we who have the notes of the visible Church: One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic. That is what makes the visible Church.

One Year After the Consecrations, Archbishop Lefebvre, interview published in Fideliter, July-August, 1989.

Archbishop Lefebvre repeatedly stated that the Conciliar Church lacks the marks of the Catholic Church, and that Traditional Catholics are the ones who have them.
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Offline 2Vermont

Re: +Vigano on the Responsa to Traditionis Custodes
« Reply #38 on: January 04, 2022, 03:42:16 PM »
Quote from: Ladislaus on January 04, 2022, 01:38:14 PM
No, Traditional Catholics agree with where the Church is.  That's nonsense.  We disagree on various legal matters, but Archbishop Lefebvre clears it up.


Archbishop Lefebvre repeatedly stated that the Conciliar Church lacks the marks of the Catholic Church, and that Traditional Catholics are the ones who have them.
This talk about the “visible Church” on the part of Dom Gerard and Mr. Madiran is childish. It is incredible that anyone can talk of the “visible Church”, meaning the Conciliar Church as opposed to the Catholic Church which we are trying to represent and continue. I am not saying that we are the Catholic Church. I have never said so. No one can reproach me with ever having wished to set myself up as pope. But, we truly represent the Catholic Church such as it was before, because we are continuing what it always did. It is we who have the notes of the visible Church: One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic. That is what makes the visible Church.

How are these two bolded statements not contradictory?  If the traditional Catholics have the marks of the Catholic Church...and I happen to agree with that...., how can he also say they are not the Catholic Church?
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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: +Vigano on the Responsa to Traditionis Custodes
« Reply #39 on: January 04, 2022, 04:04:36 PM »
Quote from: 2Vermont on January 04, 2022, 03:42:16 PM
This talk about the “visible Church” on the part of Dom Gerard and Mr. Madiran is childish. It is incredible that anyone can talk of the “visible Church”, meaning the Conciliar Church as opposed to the Catholic Church which we are trying to represent and continue. I am not saying that we are the Catholic Church. I have never said so. No one can reproach me with ever having wished to set myself up as pope. But, we truly represent the Catholic Church such as it was before, because we are continuing what it always did. It is we who have the notes of the visible Church: One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic. That is what makes the visible Church.

How are these two bolded statements not contradictory?  If the traditional Catholics have the marks of the Catholic Church...and I happen to agree with that...., how can he also say they are not the Catholic Church?

He's making a distinction between we "are" the Church, legallly and juridically, and we "represent" the Church, in terms of having the notes of the Church, in so far as we have the notes.  If you look at the world, what's left of the Church can be found and identified in the Traditional movement, but that doesn't make the Traditional movement have the canonical reality of the Church.  Conciliar Church is no longer identifiable as Catholic, but Traditional Catholis are, but that doesn't mean that have the jurisdical reality of being THE Church.
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