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Author Topic: +Vigano on the Responsa to Traditionis Custodes  (Read 1719 times)

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Offline 2Vermont

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Re: +Vigano on the Responsa to Traditionis Custodes
« Reply #15 on: January 03, 2022, 03:07:23 PM »
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  • +Vigano needs to come out and declare the See vacant.  He's flirting with it by citing Bishop Lenga, who has done precisely that ... albeit from the SedepleneBennyBergogliovacantist angle.  If you denounce Bergoglio for all the evils of V2, how do you absolve his Conciliar predecessors?
    He will do that when Ratzinger and Bergoglio die....if he outlives them.  
    "For there is not any thing secret that shall not be made manifest, nor hidden, that shall not be known and come abroad."- Luke 8:17

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: +Vigano on the Responsa to Traditionis Custodes
    « Reply #16 on: January 03, 2022, 03:11:00 PM »
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  • No one has the authority of course to bind consciences with such a declaration, but I am a firm believer that if someone of +Vigano's stature started the ball rolling, any Catholic who still has faith left will come to agree after some time has passed.  Then if there's a Universal Consensus that the See is vacant, there could then be an election.  Problem with the Conclavism of the past that brought us the likes of Pope Michael and Pius XIII and Linus II is that such a thing requires a near-universal consensus.  It has to be an act of the entire Church, not David Bawden's mom and ex-girlfriend.  As it is, most Catholics recognize that Bergoglio is not a Catholic pope and not their rule of faith ... but just differ regarding the legalities.  Heck, many of the Modernists who were excommunicated by St. Pius X would themselves excommunicate Bergoglio for heresy.
    I think most people who currently hold him in high regard would drop him like a hot potato if he went sede.
    "For there is not any thing secret that shall not be made manifest, nor hidden, that shall not be known and come abroad."- Luke 8:17


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: +Vigano on the Responsa to Traditionis Custodes
    « Reply #17 on: January 03, 2022, 03:22:57 PM »
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  • I think most people who currently hold him in high regard would drop him like a hot potato if he went sede.

    Initially, but it would build momentum over time.  You'd have the sedevacantists of course joining him, and the possibly bringing in the Resistance, and perhaps large portions of those who currently got to SSPX Masses but are really sedevacantists at heart.  Then, as their numbers grew, more would eventually join the movement.  Bergoglio is so bad that it would just take one person to point out that the emperor has no clothes.

    Offline Tradman

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    Re: +Vigano on the Responsa to Traditionis Custodes
    « Reply #18 on: January 03, 2022, 03:45:17 PM »
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  • No, he needs to say that the Church needs to elect a Pope NOW.  Anyone who has the faith left repudiates Jorge Bergoglio and does not recognize him as a Catholic.  There's clearly a de facto Universal Rejection of Bergoglio as a rule of faith, despite the fact that there are some who give too much weight to the material occupation of the Holy See.
    Unless he's called by God, Vigano cannot attempt to do more to oust Bergog. It remains unproven that one man can call a council to depose a pope because he's a heretic.  Unless God calls for it specifically.  It's one thing to see Bergog is spouting heresy, it's another for a person or persons to do something about it.  Who's going to listen to him/them?  A few hundred or thousand trads?  Another problem is the cardinals will elect the same or worse.  What is Vigano going to do? Force good cardinals to vote, and forbid bad cardinals from voting?  Vigano is not in a position to manipulate that many circuмstances in the Church with his level of authority, even for Her betterment. He's humbly calling Catholics to prayer and penance for the remaining chastisement still to come.  Because God allows such things to His greater glory, it won't be just a man or men who fixes this.   

    Offline Meg

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    Re: +Vigano on the Responsa to Traditionis Custodes
    « Reply #19 on: January 03, 2022, 03:49:24 PM »
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  • Initially, but it would build momentum over time.  You'd have the sedevacantists of course joining him, and the possibly bringing in the Resistance, and perhaps large portions of those who currently got to SSPX Masses but are really sedevacantists at heart.  Then, as their numbers grew, more would eventually join the movement.  Bergoglio is so bad that it would just take one person to point out that the emperor has no clothes.

    Yes, but for the Resistance to go sede, Bp. Williamson would have to go sede, and the problem with that is that the SAJM would not likely go along with it. There would be a serious division.

    There's always a small possibility the +W will go sede, but he never has in the 30+ years he's been a bishop. He also wrote two articles on sedevacantism five+ years ago. It's possible he's softened his position since then, but I haven't seen evidence of it.

    Article 1:
    Again, Sedevacantism – I | St. Marcel Initiative (stmarcelinitiative.com)

    Article 2:
    Sedevacantism Again – II | St. Marcel Initiative (stmarcelinitiative.com)
    "Our society is so abnormal that the normal man never dreams of having the normal occupation of looking after one's own property. When he chooses a trade, he chooses one of the ten thousand trades that involve looking after other people's property."

    ~ G.K. Chesterton, Commonwealth, Oct. 12, 1932.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: +Vigano on the Responsa to Traditionis Custodes
    « Reply #20 on: January 03, 2022, 03:57:24 PM »
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  • Yes, but for the Resistance to go sede, Bp. Williamson would have to go sede, and the problem with that is that the SAJM would not likely go along with it. There would be a serious division.

    It's not about going sedevacantist per se, but about getting to the point where the Church would repudiate Bergoglio and then even those who hold to the John of St. Thomas and Cajetan positions would have their criteria met.  Bishop Williamson has said that it's possible Bergoglio is not the pope, Avrille that it's not an unreasonable position, and Father Chazal holds Bergoglio to be an impounded heretic with no authority merely awaiting deposition by the Church.

    Offline Meg

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    Re: +Vigano on the Responsa to Traditionis Custodes
    « Reply #21 on: January 03, 2022, 04:00:46 PM »
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  • It's not about going sedevacantist per se, but about getting to the point where the Church would repudiate Bergoglio and then even those who hold to the John of St. Thomas and Cajetan positions would have their criteria met.  Bishop Williamson has said that it's possible Bergoglio is not the pope, Avrille that it's not an unreasonable position, and Father Chazal holds Bergoglio to be an impounded heretic with no authority merely awaiting deposition by the Church.

    Okay, but how would a point be gotten to, exactly, where the Church would repudiate Francis? It's just that trads can't really agree on where the Church is exactly, or who belongs to it. A lot of factors would have to line up in order for a repudiation, and I can't see that happening. 
    "Our society is so abnormal that the normal man never dreams of having the normal occupation of looking after one's own property. When he chooses a trade, he chooses one of the ten thousand trades that involve looking after other people's property."

    ~ G.K. Chesterton, Commonwealth, Oct. 12, 1932.

    Offline Meg

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    Re: +Vigano on the Responsa to Traditionis Custodes
    « Reply #22 on: January 03, 2022, 04:19:25 PM »
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  • Unless he's called by God, Vigano cannot attempt to do more to oust Bergog. It remains unproven that one man can call a council to depose a pope because he's a heretic.  Unless God calls for it specifically.  It's one thing to see Bergog is spouting heresy, it's another for a person or persons to do something about it.  Who's going to listen to him/them?  A few hundred or thousand trads?  Another problem is the cardinals will elect the same or worse.  What is Vigano going to do? Force good cardinals to vote, and forbid bad cardinals from voting?  Vigano is not in a position to manipulate that many circuмstances in the Church with his level of authority, even for Her betterment. He's humbly calling Catholics to prayer and penance for the remaining chastisement still to come.  Because God allows such things to His greater glory, it won't be just a man or men who fixes this. 

    Well said. I think that God doesn't want the Crisis to end.

    It's probably as you say: He's humbly calling us to prayer and penance for the chastisement still to come. 
    "Our society is so abnormal that the normal man never dreams of having the normal occupation of looking after one's own property. When he chooses a trade, he chooses one of the ten thousand trades that involve looking after other people's property."

    ~ G.K. Chesterton, Commonwealth, Oct. 12, 1932.


    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Re: +Vigano on the Responsa to Traditionis Custodes
    « Reply #23 on: January 03, 2022, 05:01:51 PM »
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  • I think most people who currently hold him in high regard would drop him like a hot potato if he went sede.
    You may be right.  However, he has already come out and said that V2 is not Catholic.  He's not one of those nutty reform of the reform people.  If he hasn't lost them all yet, maybe the NO mover and shakers are ready to shake the filthy dust of V2 from their feet and go sede with Vigano?  I don't know.  I don't have a silver ball.  But I'm with you.  I don't have much hope that there is going to be a sudden turn-around and millions of Novus Ordo people quit the Novus Ordo sect and become true Catholics.  I think we are getting real close to judgement day.  And I'm not a believer in the great monarch thing.  There isn't anything in Sacred Scripture about that.  At least not anything that the Church has clearly confirmed.  Mainly I see that truth is not highly valued by the vast majority of the world's population.  I see that mothers routinely murder their own flesh and blood.  I see that perversion is now institutionalized almost everywhere in the world.  Sodom and Gomorah have nothing on this generation.  We make S&G look like child's play.  I believe that it is clearly divinely revealed in the Apocalypse that the world is going to be burnt in the end.  And it looks like that day is fast approaching.  I'm more worried about keeping myself spiritually prepared for that rather than spending a lot of energy worrying about what Vigano may or may not do.  But I do find the various speculations interesting.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: +Vigano on the Responsa to Traditionis Custodes
    « Reply #24 on: January 03, 2022, 06:25:25 PM »
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  • I think most people who currently hold him in high regard would drop him like a hot potato if he went sede.

    Disagree, and here's why:

    The big "hangup" I and other R&R types have with the current sedes are these:

    1) Bellarmine vs JST/Cajetan, et al.
    2) We have issues with violating UPA;
    3) We have issues with any declarations/depositions which would not come from the hierarchy (similar but distinct from #1).

    BUT

    My "Fantasy thread" resolved all those "hangups" by either satisfying them or making them moot issues:

    To Problem #1: We fear to side with St. Bellarmine, because on the one hand, there is a dispute that he has been properly understood by the sedes, and on the other hand, supposing he was properly translated and interpreted, what if he is wrong?

    But supposing somehow that the bishops would follow JST/Cajetan/Suarez's method (i.e., First declaring the fact of Francis's heresy, then in a second declaration, declaring that God has deposed Francis for heresy), then in concreto, the debate over St. Bellarmine vs JST/Cajetan/Suarez becomes both academic and moot, because in fact, there would be no pope:

    Universal peaceful asssent that Francis is NOT pope is just as infallible as that same universal assent saying he IS pope.

    But even 5% of cardinals and bishops rejecting Francis would destroy UPA, and with it, the obligations we feel to honor the legitimacy of Francis's pontificate.  More on this below...


    To Problem #2: Were a quality minority of bishops and cardinals to lobby for a declaration of Francis's heresy (the first step in JST/Cajetan's "method"), then UPA would effectively cease.  5% of the world's bishops and cardinals would suffice to dissolve UNIVERSAL (i.e., moral universality) assent.  At that point, people who were previously non-sede would be at ease of conscience to become sedes, since the UPA argument vanishes into thin air, AND it is the Church which is running the process (Keep in mind: It is not the bishops and cardinals deposing the pope!  It is the Cardinals and bishops declaring the fact of Francis's heresy, and in a second declaration that GOD has deposed him).


    To Problem #3: We believe only those with jurisdiction can make this process legitimate.  We know some of the sedes dispute this.  No matter: So long as cardinals and bishops with jurisdiction did in fact begin and conclude this process, there is no reason for sedes to oppose it: They still get what they wanted, while R&R also get what they wanted, and both are happy.  The argument over whether jurisdiction was necessary, as with Problem #1, becomes merely academic and moot.

    This is why I think that R&R would support a declaration of sedevacante, so long as the process worked out this way: The process removes the danger of error, which all R&R prudently apprehend.

    In my Fantasy Thread, I laid out a scenario which could start this ball rolling.

    I chose ++Burke precisely because he has jurisdiction (with +Vigano being the mastermind behind the scenes, and supplying the doctrinal firepower).

    Once UPA is destroyed, +Vigano is elected Pope, and we are back to the GWS, with competing claimants, none of which enjoy UPA, but it is necessary to pass through this phase until one side or another gains UPA.

    The Fantasy Thread lays out a scenario as to how +Vigano and his successor build momentum which eventually wins for them the UPA needed, and restores the Church from the top down.
    Disagreeing with Ladislaus is heretical and blasphemous!

    Offline bodeens

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    Re: +Vigano on the Responsa to Traditionis Custodes
    « Reply #25 on: January 03, 2022, 06:29:29 PM »
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  • Initially, but it would build momentum over time.  You'd have the sedevacantists of course joining him, and the possibly bringing in the Resistance, and perhaps large portions of those who currently got to SSPX Masses but are really sedevacantists at heart.  Then, as their numbers grew, more would eventually join the movement.  Bergoglio is so bad that it would just take one person to point out that the emperor has no clothes.
    Resistance is already in practice and belief Privationist so I could see them staying put (what meaningful would change about their position?) but the remaining uncontrolled elements in the SSPX (I think in particular laity with sede options nearby are particularly going to be redpilled, priests few but some) will consider jumping ship as well as Independent chapels like OLHC could easily turn sedesomething.

    If anything I think it's easier to redpill NO "priests" rather than Indulter priests. All you have to do is look at priests that went sede in the CMRI, Joseph Pham in particular stands out to me as someone who simply followed things to their logical and uncomfortable conclusions. It did not take him long after realizing there was a Latin Mass to realize that he had the Faith stolen from him. I don't think Indult priests are in a position to make this kind of realization because of their position in the Crisis, the FSSP, Canons (they lost their building and everything so who knows what their position is now but I'm guessing they will cow to Rome) and ICKSP are all organizations born out of extreme obedience rather than any theological coherence. These Indult organizations self-select for priests not able to make key conclusions in this situation.
    "We dare not even start to hope until the Faith, the true Faith, and its revealed content, are secured in our minds. Only in terms of Faith do we dare to hope."


    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: +Vigano on the Responsa to Traditionis Custodes
    « Reply #26 on: January 03, 2022, 06:32:47 PM »
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  • You may be right.  However, he has already come out and said that V2 is not Catholic.  He's not one of those nutty reform of the reform people.  If he hasn't lost them all yet, maybe the NO mover and shakers are ready to shake the filthy dust of V2 from their feet and go sede with Vigano?  I don't know.  I don't have a silver ball.  But I'm with you.  I don't have much hope that there is going to be a sudden turn-around and millions of Novus Ordo people quit the Novus Ordo sect and become true Catholics.  I think we are getting real close to judgement day.  And I'm not a believer in the great monarch thing.  There isn't anything in Sacred Scripture about that.  At least not anything that the Church has clearly confirmed.  Mainly I see that truth is not highly valued by the vast majority of the world's population.  I see that mothers routinely murder their own flesh and blood.  I see that perversion is now institutionalized almost everywhere in the world.  Sodom and Gomorah have nothing on this generation.  We make S&G look like child's play.  I believe that it is clearly divinely revealed in the Apocalypse that the world is going to be burnt in the end.  And it looks like that day is fast approaching.  I'm more worried about keeping myself spiritually prepared for that rather than spending a lot of energy worrying about what Vigano may or may not do.  But I do find the various speculations interesting.


    I'm in substantial agreement with this. 
    Non enim omnes qui ex Israel sunt, ii sunt Israelitae (Roman 9:6)

    Offline songbird

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    Re: +Vigano on the Responsa to Traditionis Custodes
    « Reply #27 on: January 03, 2022, 07:21:28 PM »
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  • Sede v is a vacant seat, and looking for a true pope.  If there is a true pope, then why do the people have resistance.

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: +Vigano on the Responsa to Traditionis Custodes
    « Reply #28 on: January 04, 2022, 04:44:45 AM »
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  • Disagree, and here's why:

    The big "hangup" I and other R&R types have with the current sedes are these:

    1) Bellarmine vs JST/Cajetan, et al.
    2) We have issues with violating UPA;
    3) We have issues with any declarations/depositions which would not come from the hierarchy (similar but distinct from #1).

    BUT

    My "Fantasy thread" resolved all those "hangups" by either satisfying them or making them moot issues:

    To Problem #1: We fear to side with St. Bellarmine, because on the one hand, there is a dispute that he has been properly understood by the sedes, and on the other hand, supposing he was properly translated and interpreted, what if he is wrong?

    But supposing somehow that the bishops would follow JST/Cajetan/Suarez's method (i.e., First declaring the fact of Francis's heresy, then in a second declaration, declaring that God has deposed Francis for heresy), then in concreto, the debate over St. Bellarmine vs JST/Cajetan/Suarez becomes both academic and moot, because in fact, there would be no pope:

    Universal peaceful asssent that Francis is NOT pope is just as infallible as that same universal assent saying he IS pope.

    But even 5% of cardinals and bishops rejecting Francis would destroy UPA, and with it, the obligations we feel to honor the legitimacy of Francis's pontificate.  More on this below...


    To Problem #2: Were a quality minority of bishops and cardinals to lobby for a declaration of Francis's heresy (the first step in JST/Cajetan's "method"), then UPA would effectively cease.  5% of the world's bishops and cardinals would suffice to dissolve UNIVERSAL (i.e., moral universality) assent.  At that point, people who were previously non-sede would be at ease of conscience to become sedes, since the UPA argument vanishes into thin air, AND it is the Church which is running the process (Keep in mind: It is not the bishops and cardinals deposing the pope!  It is the Cardinals and bishops declaring the fact of Francis's heresy, and in a second declaration that GOD has deposed him).


    To Problem #3: We believe only those with jurisdiction can make this process legitimate.  We know some of the sedes dispute this.  No matter: So long as cardinals and bishops with jurisdiction did in fact begin and conclude this process, there is no reason for sedes to oppose it: They still get what they wanted, while R&R also get what they wanted, and both are happy.  The argument over whether jurisdiction was necessary, as with Problem #1, becomes merely academic and moot.

    This is why I think that R&R would support a declaration of sedevacante, so long as the process worked out this way: The process removes the danger of error, which all R&R prudently apprehend.

    In my Fantasy Thread, I laid out a scenario which could start this ball rolling.

    I chose ++Burke precisely because he has jurisdiction (with +Vigano being the mastermind behind the scenes, and supplying the doctrinal firepower).

    Once UPA is destroyed, +Vigano is elected Pope, and we are back to the GWS, with competing claimants, none of which enjoy UPA, but it is necessary to pass through this phase until one side or another gains UPA.

    The Fantasy Thread lays out a scenario as to how +Vigano and his successor build momentum which eventually wins for them the UPA needed, and restores the Church from the top down.
    What would be the reason why Burke would hypothetically reject Bergoglio? Because of the liturgy?  Because he never responded to his dubia?  I don't recall him ever taking issue with Vatican II for example.  It seems to me that if this repudiation has nothing to do with Vatican II we really aren't where we should be.  And then there's the issue of whether these men are truly bishops in the first place.
    "For there is not any thing secret that shall not be made manifest, nor hidden, that shall not be known and come abroad."- Luke 8:17

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: +Vigano on the Responsa to Traditionis Custodes
    « Reply #29 on: January 04, 2022, 04:46:42 AM »
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  • I'm in substantial agreement with this.

    As am I.  I think it's becoming increasingly more evident that we are at the End.  
    "For there is not any thing secret that shall not be made manifest, nor hidden, that shall not be known and come abroad."- Luke 8:17