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Author Topic: +Vigano on the Responsa to Traditionis Custodes  (Read 2471 times)

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Offline SeanJohnson

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+Vigano on the Responsa to Traditionis Custodes
« on: January 02, 2022, 07:00:49 PM »
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    • Vos estis qui justificatis vos coram hominibus:
    Deus autem novit corda vestra:
    quia quod hominibus altum est,
    abominatio est ante Deum. Lk 16, 15
     
    Reading the Responsa ad Dubia recently published by the Congregation for Divine Worship, one wonders to what low levels the Roman curia could have descended, in order to have to humor Bergoglio with such servility, in a cruel and merciless war against the most docile and faithful part of the Church. Never, in the last decades of the most serious crisis in the Church, has ecclesiastical authority shown itself to be so determined and severe: it has not done so with the heretical theologians who infest the pontifical Athenaeums and seminaries; it has not done so with fornicating clerics and prelates; it has not done so in exemplarily punishing the scandals of bishops and cardinals. But against the faithful, priests and religious who ask only to be able to celebrate the Tridentine holy Mass, no mercy, no inclusiveness. Brothers all?
     
    Never under this "pontificate" has the abuse of power by authority been [so] perceptible, not even when two thousand years of lex orandi were immolated by Paul VI on the altar of Vatican II, imposing on the Church a rite as equivocal as it is hypocritical. That imposition, to which corresponded the prohibition to celebrate in the ancient rite and the persecution of dissenters, had at least the alibi of the illusion that a change would perhaps have raised the fortunes of Catholicism in the face of an increasingly secularized world. Today, after fifty years of immense disasters and fourteen years of Summorum Pontificuм, that tenuous justification is not only no longer valid, but its inconsistency has been defeated by the evidence of the facts. All that the Council has brought has been harmful; it has emptied churches, seminaries and convents; it has destroyed ecclesiastical and religious vocations; it has drained every spiritual, cultural and civil impulse of Catholics; it has humiliated the Church of Christ and confined it to the margins of society, making it pathetic in its clumsy attempt to please the world. And vice versa, since Benedict XVI had sought to heal that vulnus by recognizing full rights to the traditional liturgy, the communities linked to the Mass of St. Pius V have multiplied, the seminaries of the Ecclesia Dei Institutes have grown, vocations have increased, the frequency of the faithful has increased, and the spiritual life of many young people and families has found an unexpected impetus.
     
    What lesson should have been drawn from this "experiment of Tradition" invoked at the time also by Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre? The most obvious and at the same time simplest one: what God has given to the Church is destined to succeed, and what man adds to it collapses miserably. A soul not blinded by ideological fury would have admitted the error made, trying to repair the damage and rebuild what had been destroyed in the meantime, to restore what had been abandoned. But this requires humility, a supernatural gaze and trust in God's providential intervention. It also requires an awareness on the part of pastors that they are stewards of the Lord's goods, and not masters: they have no right either to alienate them or to hide them or to replace them with their own inventions; they must limit themselves to safeguarding them and making them available to the faithful, sine glossa, and with the constant thought that they must answer before God for every sheep and every lamb of His flock. The Apostle admonishes: "Hic jam quæritur inter dispensatóres, ut fidélis quis inveniátur" (I Cor 4, 2), "what is required of dispensors is that they be found faithful."
     
    The Responsa ad Dubia are consistent with Traditionis custodes, and make explicit the subversive nature of this "pontificate," in which the supreme power of the Church is usurped in order to achieve a purpose diametrically opposed to that for which Our Lord constituted in authority the sacred pastors and His vicar on earth. It is a power that is indocile and rebellious to Him who instituted it and legitimizes it; a power that believes itself to be fide solutus, so to speak, according to a principle that is intrinsically revolutionary and therefore heretical. Let us not forget: the Revolution claims for itself a power that is justified by the mere fact of being revolutionary, subversive, conspiratorial and antithetical to the legitimate power it intends to overthrow; and that as soon as it reaches institutional roles it is exercised with tyrannical authoritarianism, precisely because it is not ratified either by God or by the people.
     
    Allow me to underline a parallel between two apparently disconnected situations. Just as in the presence of a pandemic effective cures are denied, with the imposition of a useless, indeed harmful and even lethal "vaccine;" so the Tridentine holy Mass, true medicine for the soul at a time of very serious moral pestilence, is culpably denied to the faithful, substituting the Novus Ordo. The doctors of the body fail in their duty, even in the presence of therapies, and impose an experimental serum on both the sick and the healthy, and insist on administering it despite the evidence of its total ineffectiveness and adverse effects. Similarly, the priests, doctors of the soul, betray their mandate, even in the presence of an infallible drug tested for over two thousand years, and do everything to prevent those who have experienced the effectiveness from using it to heal from sin. In the first case, the body's immune defenses are weakened or cancelled in order to create chronically ill patients at the mercy of pharmaceutical companies; in the second case, the soul's immune defenses are compromised by a worldly mentality and by the cancellation of the supernatural and transcendent dimension, so as to leave souls defenseless before the assaults of the devil. And this is valid as an answer to those who pretend to address the religious crisis without considering in parallel the social and political crisis, because it is precisely this duplicity of attack that makes it so terrible and that only reveals its criminal mind.
     
    I do not want to go into the delusions of the Responsa: it is enough to know the ratio legis to reject Traditionis Custodes as an ideological and factious docuмent, drawn up by vindictive and intolerant people, full of velleities and gross canonical errors, with the intention of prohibiting a rite canonized by two thousand years of saints and pontiffs and imposing a spurious one, copied by the Lutherans and refined by the modernists, which in fifty years has caused an immense disaster to the ecclesial body and which, precisely because of this devastating effectiveness, must not know derogation. There is not only guilt: there is also malice and the double betrayal of the divine Lawgiver and of the faithful.
     
    Bishops, priests, religious and laity find themselves once again having to make a choice afield: either with the Catholic Church and its bimillenary and immutable doctrine, or with the conciliar and Bergoglian Church, with its errors and its secularized rites. And this happens in a paradoxical situation in which the Catholic Church and its counterfeit coincide in the same hierarchy, which the faithful feel they must obey as an expression of God's authority and simultaneously disobey as a traitor and rebel.
     
    Of course, it is not easy to disobey the tyrant: his reactions are ruthless and cruel; but much worse persecutions were those that Catholics had to suffer over the centuries when they had to face Arianism, Iconoclasm, the Lutheran heresy, the Anglican schism, Cromwell's Puritanism, the Masonic secularism of France and Mexico, Soviet communism, Spain, Cambodia, China... How many bishops and priests martyred, imprisoned, exiled. How many religious massacred, how many churches desecrated, how many altars destroyed. And all this because? Because the sacred ministers did not want to give up the most precious treasure that Our Lord has given us: the Holy Mass. The Mass that He taught the Apostles to celebrate, that the Apostles passed on to their Successors, that the Popes have guarded and restored and that has always been at the center of the infernal hatred of the enemies of Christ and the Church. To think that that Holy Mass, for which missionaries sent to Protestant lands or priests imprisoned in the gulags risked their lives, is now prohibited by the Holy See is a cause of pain and scandal, as well as an offense to the martyrs who defended that Mass until their last breath. But these things can be understood only by those who believe, those who love, those who hope. Only those who live by God.
     
    Those who limit themselves to expressing reservations or criticism of Traditionis Custodes and the Responsa fall into the trap of the adversary, because they recognize the legitimacy of an illegitimate and invalid law, wanted and promulgated to humiliate the Church and her faithful, to spite the "traditionalists" who dare nothing less than to oppose heterodox doctrines condemned up to Vatican II, made their own by it and today risen to the figure of the Bergoglian pontificate. Traditionis Custodes and Responsa must simply be ignored, rejected [and sent] back to the sender. They should be ignored because the will to punish Catholics who have remained faithful, to disperse them, to make them disappear, is clear.
     
    I am dismayed at the servility of so many cardinals and bishops who, in order to please Bergoglio, trample on the rights of God and of the souls entrusted to them, and who make a point of showing their aversion to the "pre-conciliar" liturgy, considering themselves worthy of public praise and Vatican approval. The words of the Lord are addressed to them: "You think yourselves righteous before men, but God knows your hearts: what is exalted among men is detestable before God" (Lk 16:15).
     
    The consistent and courageous response to a tyrannical gesture of ecclesiastical authority must be resistance and disobedience to an inadmissible order. Resigning oneself to accepting this umpteenth abuse means adding another precedent to the long series of abuses tolerated thus far, and by one's own servile obedience making oneself responsible for maintaining a power that is an end in itself.
     
    It is necessary that the Bishops, Successors of the Apostles, exercise their sacred authority, in obedience and fidelity to the Head of the Mystical Body, to put an end to this ecclesiastical coup d'état that has taken place before our eyes. The honor of the papacy, today exposed to discredit and humiliation by the one who occupies the threshold of Peter, demands it. The good of souls demands it, whose salvation is the supreme lex of the Church. The glory of God demands it, with respect to which no compromise is tolerable.
     
    The Polish Archbishop Msgr. Jan Paweł Lenga has said that it is time for a Catholic counterrevolution, if we do not want to see the Church sink under the heresies and vices of mercenaries and traitors. The promise of non prævalebunt does not exclude in the least, indeed it asks and demands a firm and courageous action not only from the bishops and priests, but also from the laity, who are treated as subjects as never before, despite the fatuous appeals to actuosa participatio and to their role in the Church. Let us take note: clericalism has reached its peak under the "pontificate" of those who hypocritically do nothing but stigmatize it.
     
    + Carlo Maria Viganò, Archbishop


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    Offline songbird

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    Re: +Vigano on the Responsa to Traditionis Custodes
    « Reply #1 on: January 02, 2022, 07:16:05 PM »
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    • Why doesn't Vigano make it easy by just saying, when this pope/not pope dies, vote for me.  Other than that, he gives no solutions just woe is us.
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: +Vigano on the Responsa to Traditionis Custodes
    « Reply #2 on: January 02, 2022, 10:38:58 PM »
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    • Quote from: songbird on January 02, 2022, 07:16:05 PM
    Why doesn't Vigano make it easy by just saying, when this pope/not pope dies, vote for me.  Other than that, he gives no solutions just woe is us.

    What type of solution would you yourself suggest? 
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: +Vigano on the Responsa to Traditionis Custodes
    « Reply #3 on: January 03, 2022, 04:10:09 AM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on January 02, 2022, 07:00:49 PM

    Vos estis qui justificatis vos coram hominibus:
    Deus autem novit corda vestra:
    quia quod hominibus altum est,
    abominatio est ante Deum. Lk 16, 15

    . . .

     And this happens in a paradoxical situation in which the Catholic Church and its counterfeit coincide in the same hierarchy, which the faithful feel they must obey as an expression of God's authority and simultaneously disobey as a traitor and rebel.
    Quote from: SeanJohnson on January 02, 2022, 07:00:49 PM


     
    + Carlo Maria Viganò, Archbishop
     
    The true Catholic hierarchy has been "taken out of the way," and now we see the "mystery of iniquity" and it's final masterpiece of the "abomination of desolation."

    For all the sincerity and seriousness with which Vigano addresses this, to call it a "paradox" is somehow oddly missing it's true reality.  

    In reading Vigano on this state of affairs, I sometimes get the sense or feel of the rhetoric that's invoked regarding bad presidents, like communist Obama.As if all we need to do is "kick the bum out" and restore the Republic.

    Alas, it's much more than that.

    We are on the verge of the end of time.

     
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    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: +Vigano on the Responsa to Traditionis Custodes
    « Reply #4 on: January 03, 2022, 06:06:05 AM »
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    • +Vigano is clearly struggling with the implications of this Crisis.  On the one hand he calls the Conciliar Church a counterfeit, refers to the Holy See as occupied by the enemies of the faith, and calls the Papacy disgraced.  But he's afraid to take the necessary first steps toward extirpating these imposters from the Church.

    If indeed there were a situation of a heretic Pope, the process has to being with SOMEone calling it out.  SOMEone has to be the first one to come out and declare the See vacant.  SOMEone has to declare Bergoglio illegitimate.  Oh, but he he doesn't have the authority.  Well, then, who does?  He can't unilaterally declare him deposed, but he can begin the process whereby the Universal Church repudiates the imposters, and separates Herself from them.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: +Vigano on the Responsa to Traditionis Custodes
    « Reply #5 on: January 03, 2022, 06:09:00 AM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on January 02, 2022, 10:38:58 PM
    What type of solution would you yourself suggest?

    +Vigano needs to come out and declare the See vacant.  He's flirting with it by citing Bishop Lenga, who has done precisely that ... albeit from the SedepleneBennyBergogliovacantist angle.  If you denounce Bergoglio for all the evils of V2, how do you absolve his Conciliar predecessors?
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: +Vigano on the Responsa to Traditionis Custodes
    « Reply #6 on: January 03, 2022, 06:13:52 AM »
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    • Quote from: songbird on January 02, 2022, 07:16:05 PM
    Why doesn't Vigano make it easy by just saying, when this pope/not pope dies, vote for me.  Other than that, he gives no solutions just woe is us.

    No, he needs to say that the Church needs to elect a Pope NOW.  Anyone who has the faith left repudiates Jorge Bergoglio and does not recognize him as a Catholic.  There's clearly a de facto Universal Rejection of Bergoglio as a rule of faith, despite the fact that there are some who give too much weight to the material occupation of the Holy See.
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    Offline Sefa

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    Re: +Vigano on the Responsa to Traditionis Custodes
    « Reply #7 on: January 03, 2022, 08:51:11 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on January 03, 2022, 06:09:00 AM
    +Vigano needs to come out and declare the See vacant.  He's flirting with it by citing Bishop Lenga, who has done precisely that ... albeit from the SedepleneBennyBergogliovacantist angle.  If you denounce Bergoglio for all the evils of V2, how do you absolve his Conciliar predecessors?
    What is necessary for a declaration of sede vacante? When bishop de castro meyer did it at econe was that official and being the last roman bishop with ordinary jurisdiction should not all catholics obey his declaration? The fact he was telling anyone and everyone it at econe makes me think he was being muzzled in campos.
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    Offline LeDeg

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    Re: +Vigano on the Responsa to Traditionis Custodes
    « Reply #8 on: January 03, 2022, 09:28:04 AM »
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: +Vigano on the Responsa to Traditionis Custodes
    « Reply #9 on: January 03, 2022, 09:55:16 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on January 03, 2022, 06:09:00 AM
    +Vigano needs to come out and declare the See vacant.  He's flirting with it by citing Bishop Lenga, who has done precisely that ... albeit from the SedepleneBennyBergogliovacantist angle.  If you denounce Bergoglio for all the evils of V2, how do you absolve his Conciliar predecessors?

    Okay, I see what you're saying, but how is that a solution? What will it solve? 
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: +Vigano on the Responsa to Traditionis Custodes
    « Reply #10 on: January 03, 2022, 11:00:36 AM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on January 03, 2022, 09:55:16 AM
    Okay, I see what you're saying, but how is that a solution? What will it solve?

    That's line with SeanJohnson's "fantasy" thread.  This prescinds from the question of sedevacantism, whether the See is vacant now or whether it will be vacant once the entire Church repudiates Bergoglio.  Before the Universal Church can repudiate a false pope, SOMEONE has to start the ball rolling.  And I think that it needs to roll.  Of course, God will intervene, but He usually does so through human agency.  At some point, barring someone doing something, how long do we wait before this hierarchy, which is getting less Catholic by the hour, happens to elect a Traditional pope who has the Catholic faith?  I know that people criticize SVism of over 60 years, but even having a dysfunctional hierarchy for that long is just as much a problem as having none.

    There's the prophecy that Sts. Peter and Paul will appear in a conclave to designated the promised "Holy Pope", so perhaps we'll have to wait.

    I'm a strong believer in the fact that this unravelling will begin in 2029, exactly 100 years after Our Lady requested the consecration of Russia.  In fact, I'm making my calendar for June 13, 2029.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: +Vigano on the Responsa to Traditionis Custodes
    « Reply #11 on: January 03, 2022, 11:04:42 AM »
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    • Quote from: Sefa on January 03, 2022, 08:51:11 AM
    What is necessary for a declaration of sede vacante? When bishop de castro meyer did it at econe was that official and being the last roman bishop with ordinary jurisdiction should not all catholics obey his declaration? The fact he was telling anyone and everyone it at econe makes me think he was being muzzled in campos.

    No one has the authority of course to bind consciences with such a declaration, but I am a firm believer that if someone of +Vigano's stature started the ball rolling, any Catholic who still has faith left will come to agree after some time has passed.  Then if there's a Universal Consensus that the See is vacant, there could then be an election.  Problem with the Conclavism of the past that brought us the likes of Pope Michael and Pius XIII and Linus II is that such a thing requires a near-universal consensus.  It has to be an act of the entire Church, not David Bawden's mom and ex-girlfriend.  As it is, most Catholics recognize that Bergoglio is not a Catholic pope and not their rule of faith ... but just differ regarding the legalities.  Heck, many of the Modernists who were excommunicated by St. Pius X would themselves excommunicate Bergoglio for heresy.
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: +Vigano on the Responsa to Traditionis Custodes
    « Reply #12 on: January 03, 2022, 11:12:10 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on January 03, 2022, 11:00:36 AM
    That's line with SeanJohnson's "fantasy" thread.  This prescinds from the question of sedevacantism, whether the See is vacant now or whether it will be vacant once the entire Church repudiates Bergoglio.  Before the Universal Church can repudiate a false pope, SOMEONE has to start the ball rolling.  And I think that it needs to roll.  Of course, God will intervene, but He usually does so through human agency.  At some point, barring someone doing something, how long do we wait before this hierarchy, which is getting less Catholic by the hour, happens to elect a Traditional pope who has the Catholic faith?  I know that people criticize SVism of over 60 years, but even having a dysfunctional hierarchy for that long is just as much a problem as having none.

    There's the prophecy that Sts. Peter and Paul will appear in a conclave to designated the promised "Holy Pope", so perhaps we'll have to wait.

    I'm a strong believer in the fact that this unravelling will begin in 2029, exactly 100 years after Our Lady requested the consecration of Russia.  In fact, I'm making my calendar for June 13, 2029.

    I think I understand your perspective, in that it prescinds from an SV POV, but how likely is it that a majority of Catholics, both trad and conciliar, will begin to conclude that the See is vacant, based on what +Vigano says? Yes, +Vigano could come out and say that the See is vacant, but I don't think that that will change anything, even though +Vigano is highly respected by many. 

    I hope that you're right, in that God will intervene, but I'm not sure that a human agency is required. It may be. In fact, I hope you're right about June 13, 2029. That's not so far away really. In any case, we just gotta keep on keepin' on, you know?
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: +Vigano on the Responsa to Traditionis Custodes
    « Reply #13 on: January 03, 2022, 11:58:38 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on January 03, 2022, 11:04:42 AM
    No one has the authority of course to bind consciences with such a declaration, but I am a firm believer that if someone of +Vigano's stature started the ball rolling, any Catholic who still has faith left will come to agree after some time has passed.  Then if there's a Universal Consensus that the See is vacant, there could then be an election.  Problem with the Conclavism of the past that brought us the likes of Pope Michael and Pius XIII and Linus II is that such a thing requires a near-universal consensus.  It has to be an act of the entire Church, not David Bawden's mom and ex-girlfriend.  As it is, most Catholics recognize that Bergoglio is not a Catholic pope and not their rule of faith ... but just differ regarding the legalities.  Heck, many of the Modernists who were excommunicated by St. Pius X would themselves excommunicate Bergoglio for heresy.
    Declare the seat vacant? Cardinals cannot declare the seat vacant - just remember that the cardinals served their purpose when they elected him. Nor is there even a need to start that ball rolling - by him or by anyone.

    What he can, should and is supposed to do is what God expects him to do....

    "However, even though the hierarchy cannot take legal action against an heretical pope, all of them together, or any one of them in particular, can condemn his teaching; they can accuse him before God's tribunal, warn him of his sins, and remind him of the divine wrath.

     Should this measure fail to produce any correction, they can denounce him before his subjects, the Catholic faithful, and warn them that they are not to listen to his teaching. Indeed, not only may the prelates of the Church do this, they have a most serious obligation to do it, an obligation which is as grave as the heresies are pernicious and scandalous. And if they fail to do this, they become a party to the  pope's crimes, and will most certainly share in his punishment..." - Fr. Wathen's book, Who Shall Ascend?

    This has the chance of bearing good fruit, whereas attempting to "get the ball rolling" achieves nothing good.
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    Offline Sefa

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    Re: +Vigano on the Responsa to Traditionis Custodes
    « Reply #14 on: January 03, 2022, 12:40:47 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on January 03, 2022, 11:04:42 AM
    No one has the authority of course to bind consciences with such a declaration, but I am a firm believer that if someone of +Vigano's stature started the ball rolling, any Catholic who still has faith left will come to agree after some time has passed.  Then if there's a Universal Consensus that the See is vacant, there could then be an election.  Problem with the Conclavism of the past that brought us the likes of Pope Michael and Pius XIII and Linus II is that such a thing requires a near-universal consensus.  It has to be an act of the entire Church, not David Bawden's mom and ex-girlfriend.  As it is, most Catholics recognize that Bergoglio is not a Catholic pope and not their rule of faith ... but just differ regarding the legalities.  Heck, many of the Modernists who were excommunicated by St. Pius X would themselves excommunicate Bergoglio for heresy.
    The problem with Bawden et al. is they have no ordinary jurisdiction so cannot declare a conclave. Only ordinary jurisdiction bishops/roman clergy can. If Bishop de Castro Meyer had held a conclave and elected a Pope I would probably accept it. But as he didn't, I think it is right to accept his declaration of sede vacante. But was it ex officio? Can saying it to random laypeople count as an official declaration?
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