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Author Topic: +Vigano on the Responsa to Traditionis Custodes  (Read 7271 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: +Vigano on the Responsa to Traditionis Custodes
« Reply #10 on: January 03, 2022, 11:00:36 AM »
Okay, I see what you're saying, but how is that a solution? What will it solve?

That's line with SeanJohnson's "fantasy" thread.  This prescinds from the question of sedevacantism, whether the See is vacant now or whether it will be vacant once the entire Church repudiates Bergoglio.  Before the Universal Church can repudiate a false pope, SOMEONE has to start the ball rolling.  And I think that it needs to roll.  Of course, God will intervene, but He usually does so through human agency.  At some point, barring someone doing something, how long do we wait before this hierarchy, which is getting less Catholic by the hour, happens to elect a Traditional pope who has the Catholic faith?  I know that people criticize SVism of over 60 years, but even having a dysfunctional hierarchy for that long is just as much a problem as having none.

There's the prophecy that Sts. Peter and Paul will appear in a conclave to designated the promised "Holy Pope", so perhaps we'll have to wait.

I'm a strong believer in the fact that this unravelling will begin in 2029, exactly 100 years after Our Lady requested the consecration of Russia.  In fact, I'm making my calendar for June 13, 2029.

Offline Ladislaus

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Re: +Vigano on the Responsa to Traditionis Custodes
« Reply #11 on: January 03, 2022, 11:04:42 AM »
What is necessary for a declaration of sede vacante? When bishop de castro meyer did it at econe was that official and being the last roman bishop with ordinary jurisdiction should not all catholics obey his declaration? The fact he was telling anyone and everyone it at econe makes me think he was being muzzled in campos.

No one has the authority of course to bind consciences with such a declaration, but I am a firm believer that if someone of +Vigano's stature started the ball rolling, any Catholic who still has faith left will come to agree after some time has passed.  Then if there's a Universal Consensus that the See is vacant, there could then be an election.  Problem with the Conclavism of the past that brought us the likes of Pope Michael and Pius XIII and Linus II is that such a thing requires a near-universal consensus.  It has to be an act of the entire Church, not David Bawden's mom and ex-girlfriend.  As it is, most Catholics recognize that Bergoglio is not a Catholic pope and not their rule of faith ... but just differ regarding the legalities.  Heck, many of the Modernists who were excommunicated by St. Pius X would themselves excommunicate Bergoglio for heresy.


Offline Meg

Re: +Vigano on the Responsa to Traditionis Custodes
« Reply #12 on: January 03, 2022, 11:12:10 AM »
That's line with SeanJohnson's "fantasy" thread.  This prescinds from the question of sedevacantism, whether the See is vacant now or whether it will be vacant once the entire Church repudiates Bergoglio.  Before the Universal Church can repudiate a false pope, SOMEONE has to start the ball rolling.  And I think that it needs to roll.  Of course, God will intervene, but He usually does so through human agency.  At some point, barring someone doing something, how long do we wait before this hierarchy, which is getting less Catholic by the hour, happens to elect a Traditional pope who has the Catholic faith?  I know that people criticize SVism of over 60 years, but even having a dysfunctional hierarchy for that long is just as much a problem as having none.

There's the prophecy that Sts. Peter and Paul will appear in a conclave to designated the promised "Holy Pope", so perhaps we'll have to wait.

I'm a strong believer in the fact that this unravelling will begin in 2029, exactly 100 years after Our Lady requested the consecration of Russia.  In fact, I'm making my calendar for June 13, 2029.

I think I understand your perspective, in that it prescinds from an SV POV, but how likely is it that a majority of Catholics, both trad and conciliar, will begin to conclude that the See is vacant, based on what +Vigano says? Yes, +Vigano could come out and say that the See is vacant, but I don't think that that will change anything, even though +Vigano is highly respected by many. 

I hope that you're right, in that God will intervene, but I'm not sure that a human agency is required. It may be. In fact, I hope you're right about June 13, 2029. That's not so far away really. In any case, we just gotta keep on keepin' on, you know?

Offline Stubborn

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Re: +Vigano on the Responsa to Traditionis Custodes
« Reply #13 on: January 03, 2022, 11:58:38 AM »
No one has the authority of course to bind consciences with such a declaration, but I am a firm believer that if someone of +Vigano's stature started the ball rolling, any Catholic who still has faith left will come to agree after some time has passed.  Then if there's a Universal Consensus that the See is vacant, there could then be an election.  Problem with the Conclavism of the past that brought us the likes of Pope Michael and Pius XIII and Linus II is that such a thing requires a near-universal consensus.  It has to be an act of the entire Church, not David Bawden's mom and ex-girlfriend.  As it is, most Catholics recognize that Bergoglio is not a Catholic pope and not their rule of faith ... but just differ regarding the legalities.  Heck, many of the Modernists who were excommunicated by St. Pius X would themselves excommunicate Bergoglio for heresy.
Declare the seat vacant? Cardinals cannot declare the seat vacant - just remember that the cardinals served their purpose when they elected him. Nor is there even a need to start that ball rolling - by him or by anyone.

What he can, should and is supposed to do is what God expects him to do....

"However, even though the hierarchy cannot take legal action against an heretical pope, all of them together, or any one of them in particular, can condemn his teaching; they can accuse him before God's tribunal, warn him of his sins, and remind him of the divine wrath.

 Should this measure fail to produce any correction, they can denounce him before his subjects, the Catholic faithful, and warn them that they are not to listen to his teaching. Indeed, not only may the prelates of the Church do this, they have a most serious obligation to do it, an obligation which is as grave as the heresies are pernicious and scandalous. And if they fail to do this, they become a party to the  pope's crimes, and will most certainly share in his punishment..." - Fr. Wathen's book, Who Shall Ascend?

This has the chance of bearing good fruit, whereas attempting to "get the ball rolling" achieves nothing good.

Re: +Vigano on the Responsa to Traditionis Custodes
« Reply #14 on: January 03, 2022, 12:40:47 PM »
No one has the authority of course to bind consciences with such a declaration, but I am a firm believer that if someone of +Vigano's stature started the ball rolling, any Catholic who still has faith left will come to agree after some time has passed.  Then if there's a Universal Consensus that the See is vacant, there could then be an election.  Problem with the Conclavism of the past that brought us the likes of Pope Michael and Pius XIII and Linus II is that such a thing requires a near-universal consensus.  It has to be an act of the entire Church, not David Bawden's mom and ex-girlfriend.  As it is, most Catholics recognize that Bergoglio is not a Catholic pope and not their rule of faith ... but just differ regarding the legalities.  Heck, many of the Modernists who were excommunicated by St. Pius X would themselves excommunicate Bergoglio for heresy.
The problem with Bawden et al. is they have no ordinary jurisdiction so cannot declare a conclave. Only ordinary jurisdiction bishops/roman clergy can. If Bishop de Castro Meyer had held a conclave and elected a Pope I would probably accept it. But as he didn't, I think it is right to accept his declaration of sede vacante. But was it ex officio? Can saying it to random laypeople count as an official declaration?