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Author Topic: +Vigano on New Mass and Francis  (Read 3924 times)

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Offline SeanJohnson

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Re: +Vigano on New Mass and Francis
« Reply #75 on: April 08, 2021, 09:36:51 PM »
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    • PS: As an aside, after BXVI was elected (ie., the first pope to be elected who was consecrated according to the new rite), a firestorm of debate regarding the validity of the new rite ensued.  

    I would have to go back and refresh my memory regarding all the arguments coming from the SSPX and Avrille in defense of validity, and Fr. Cekada and Rore Sanctifica against validity, but I do not recall either side  alleging that the new rite of episcopal consecration was covered by infallibility, indefectibility, or as a secondary object of infallibility.

    Correct me if I am wrong, but it seemed most of the debate centered around whether or not the essential form was sufficiently univocal or invalidly ambiguous.

    If my memory is correct in this regard, it is an interesting concession by both sides.
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    Offline Nadir

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    Re: +Vigano on New Mass and Francis
    « Reply #76 on: April 08, 2021, 10:14:52 PM »
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    • Quote from: songbird on April 08, 2021, 08:54:02 PM
    Mysterium Fidei:  Vigano appears to be invalidly ordained.  I believe it is from 1967? when the rites were changed of the New Order.  If so, the pope is also invalidly ordained.
    I believe that rite was changed in 1968. Arch+ Vigano's  ordination was 24th March 1968.

    Bergoglio was ordained 13 December 1969

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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: +Vigano on New Mass and Francis
    « Reply #77 on: April 09, 2021, 04:52:09 AM »
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    • Quote from: Last Tradhican on April 08, 2021, 07:25:38 AM
    Totally Vatican II, sickening, a religion that is like a bottle of strawberry jam on a crumb of bread. Totally effeminate, devoid of all Catholic militancy.   It is the mindset that got us to the ʀɛʋօʟutιօn of the 1960's.

    To bring Catholicism back in order, one needs to get away from 20th century teachings. Feelings oriented people like the writer above should be avoided like the plague.
    Very well said!
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: +Vigano on New Mass and Francis
    « Reply #78 on: April 09, 2021, 07:49:33 AM »
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    • Quote from: Nadir on April 08, 2021, 10:14:52 PM
    I believe that rite was changed in 1968. Arch+ Vigano's  ordination was 24th March 1968.

    Bergoglio was ordained 13 December 1969

    Vigano was ordained on March 24, 1968.

    The new rite of priestly ordination was not imposed until June 18, 1968.

    http://www.vatican.va/content/paul-vi/la/apost_constitutions/docuмents/hf_p-vi_apc_19680618_pontificalis-romani.html
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    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: +Vigano on New Mass and Francis
    « Reply #79 on: April 09, 2021, 08:13:34 AM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on April 09, 2021, 07:49:33 AM
    Vigano was ordained on March 24, 1968.

    The new rite of priestly ordination was not imposed until June 18, 1968.

    http://www.vatican.va/content/paul-vi/la/apost_constitutions/docuмents/hf_p-vi_apc_19680618_pontificalis-romani.html

    And then I'm sure it took a while before copies of the New Rite were printed and distributed, and even then some bishops probably lagged behind in implementing it, sticking with the old familiar rite for a while longer.  But anyone ordained before June 18, 1968 would certainly be valid.
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    Offline josefamenendez

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    Re: +Vigano on New Mass and Francis
    « Reply #80 on: April 09, 2021, 08:17:05 AM »
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    • Archbishop Vigano may also be a Bishop even consecrated in the new rite, if the Bishop that consecrated him was valid by being consecrated in the old rite himself. That would make Archbishop Vigano a valid Bishop in his person , although he would not have the ability to consecrate or ordain anyone himself as the new rite (Bishops) cannot transmit that authority. A new-rite Bishop  that was  consecrated by a new- rite Bishop is not a valid Bishop

    ( I'm thinking this is correct...)
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    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: +Vigano on New Mass and Francis
    « Reply #81 on: April 09, 2021, 08:17:18 AM »
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    • Quote from: XavierSem on April 08, 2021, 10:03:28 PM
    Ladislaus, here are the Saints, Popes, Fathers and Theologians.

    These quotes do absolutely nothing to prove your non-Catholic position.  Between your promotion of Valtorta, Garbandal, and varying degrees of religious indifferentism, undermining EENS dogma, you have shown yourself to be rather consistently now a pernicious enemy of the Traditional Catholic faith.

    You need to just go away and get off this forum, and stop promoting your brand of Modernism.  I'm frankly getting sick and tired of your anti-Catholic posts and your constant effeminate emoting in support of one fake private revelation after another.  If didn't have any other information to the contrary, I would assume from your posts that you are in fact actually a woman.
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    Offline Cryptinox

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    Re: +Vigano on New Mass and Francis
    « Reply #82 on: April 09, 2021, 11:48:24 AM »
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    • Quote from: josefamenendez on April 09, 2021, 08:17:05 AM
    Archbishop Vigano may also be a Bishop even consecrated in the new rite, if the Bishop that consecrated him was valid by being consecrated in the old rite himself. That would make Archbishop Vigano a valid Bishop in his person , although he would not have the ability to consecrate or ordain anyone himself as the new rite (Bishops) cannot transmit that authority. A new-rite Bishop  that was  consecrated by a new- rite Bishop is not a valid Bishop

    ( I'm thinking this is correct...)
    You don't need to be a bishop to have jurisdiction. Abbots can have it and even laymen can.
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    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: +Vigano on New Mass and Francis
    « Reply #83 on: April 10, 2021, 03:58:31 PM »
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    • Quote from: XavierSem on April 10, 2021, 02:37:43 AM

     - refuse to vote for and support President Tɾυmρ, which could have played a role in his losing. 

    What "played a role" in Pres. Trump's loss was theft, not pure and not so simple.

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    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.
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