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Author Topic: +Vigano on New Mass and Francis  (Read 7491 times)

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Offline Last Tradhican

Re: +Vigano on New Mass and Francis
« Reply #55 on: April 08, 2021, 07:25:38 AM »
Quote from: XavierSem on April 08, 2021, 06:47:53 AM
Hi, Quo Vadis. So do you disagree with the Catholic Encyclopedia then?

I hold that validly baptized Christians, who believe explicitly in the Trinity and Incarnation, confess Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, and err in good faith, are real Christians. Msgr. Fenton says such can be saved if they are in good faith.

CE: "The Catholic Church of the twentieth century is vastly in advance of that of the sixteenth. She has made up her loss in political power and worldly wealth by increased spiritual influences and efficiency; her adherents are more widespread, more numerous, more fervent than at any time in her history, and they are bound to the central Government at Rome by a more filial affection and a clearer sense of duty. Religious education is abundantly provided for clergy and laity; religious practice, morality, and works of charity are flourishing; the Catholic mission-field is world-wide and rich in harvest. The hierarchy was never so united, never so devoted to the pope. The Roman unity is successfully resisting the inroads of sects, of philosophies, of politics.

Can our separated brethren tell a similar tale of their many Churches, even in lands where they are ruled and backed by the secular power? We do not rejoice at their disintegration, at their falling into religious indifference, or returning into political parties. No, for any shred of Christianity is better than blank worldliness. But we do draw this conclusion: that after four centuries the Catholic principle of authority is still working out the salvation of the Church, whereas among Protestants the principle of Subjectivism is destroying what remains of their former faith and driving multitudes into religious indifference and estrangement from the supernatural." https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12495a.htm

"Any shred of Christianity is better than blank worldliness". They have a partial Christianity that will always be incomplete in itself.

Catholic Christianity is Complete Christianity, the full 100% Catholic and Apostolic Faith. But other Christians have valid Baptism etc.

Every effort should be made to bring separated Christians back to the Catholic and Apostolic Church. They remain deprived of many gifts.

God Bless.
Totally Vatican II, sickening, a religion that is like a bottle of strawberry jam on a crumb of bread. Totally effeminate, devoid of all Catholic militancy.   It is the mindset that got us to the ʀɛʋօʟutιօn of the 1960's.

To bring Catholicism back in order, one needs to get away from 20th century teachings. Feelings oriented people like the writer above should be avoided like the plague.

St. Peter Julian Eymard – Bad Catholic vs Good Protestant

People often say, “It is better to be a good Protestant than a bad Catholic.” That is not true! That would mean that one could be saved without the true faith. No. A bad Catholic remains a child of the family, although a prodigal; and however great a sinner he may be, he still has a right to mercy. Through his faith, a bad Catholic is nearer to God than a Protestant, for he is a member of the household, whereas the heretic is not. And how hard it is to make him become one!
St. Peter Julian Eymard
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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: +Vigano on New Mass and Francis
« Reply #56 on: April 08, 2021, 07:31:30 AM »
Quote from: XavierSem on April 08, 2021, 06:47:53 AM
I hold that validly baptized Christians, who believe explicitly in the Trinity and Incarnation, confess Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, and err in good faith, are real Christians. Msgr. Fenton says such can be saved if they are in good faith.

You "hold" error.  No, they are not REAL Christians.  Here you go again subjectivizing faith.  Those "Christians" can believe anything they want, but if they don't believe it on the basis of the proper rule of faith, they do not have the proper formal motive of faith.  St. Thomas clearly teaches this, that even though such people materially happen to believe some true doctrine, if they do not hold it with the correct rule of faith, then they do not have the supernatural virtue of faith.  Whether they are in good faith or bad faith, if they lack a supernatural faith based upon the rule of faith established by God, then their rule of faith ultimately reduces to believing what they want to believe.  If they are in good faith, then God will undoubtedly bring them to the true faith.

If these people are able to be saved, then they are in the Church, since there's no salvation outside the Church.  Therefore, you too hold the false Vatican II ecclesiology where the Church subsists in the Catholic core but then extends outside of it.

FORMAL heresy has nothing to do with "sincerity" and "good faith".  Formal heresy refers to whether or not someone believes what he believes with the correct formal motive of faith that rests upon the proper rule of faith.  Material heresy deals with ignorance or a mistake in understanding WHAT has been taught and must be believed.  Formal heresy refers to WHY it is believed.  That is why it's said that one who rejects a single dogma rejects all of them because it's an implicit repudiation of the rule of faith on which all dogma rests.  Protestants are all by definition formal heretics, regardless of how "sincere" they are.

It would be one thing if you referred to these people as Christians in a loose sense, but calling them REAL Christians?  That's absurd.  You've been reading too much Valtorta.
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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: +Vigano on New Mass and Francis
« Reply #57 on: April 08, 2021, 07:41:16 AM »
St. Thomas Aquinas:
Quote
The formal object of faith is the First Truth as manifested in Holy Scripture and in the Church's teaching. Hence if anyone does not adhere as to an infallible and Divine rule to the Church's teaching, which proceeds from the Church's truth manifested in Holy Scripture, such an one has not the habit of faith, but holds the truths of faith not by faith but by some other principle. (II-II, Q. v, a. 3).

Protestants therefore lack the true habit (aka supernatural virtue) of faith because whatever they believe is based on "some other principle."  THIS is what is meant by FORMAL heresy, the PRINCIPLE by which one believes whatever is believed.

Over the past three or four hundred years, the subjectivizers have worked at redefining "formality" into "sincerity" or subjective good faith, and the root cause error of Vatican II, as Bishop Williamson rightly points out, is this same subjectivism that has been trending since the so-called Renaissance.
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Offline Last Tradhican

Re: +Vigano on New Mass and Francis
« Reply #58 on: April 08, 2021, 07:50:19 AM »
Quote from: XavierSem on April 08, 2021, 04:33:41 AM
What's really urgently needed imo are more traditional Priests who offer the Tridentine Mass. There are by now a great majority of faithful Catholics, who go to the NOM, who would love to assist at the TLM if they had the opportunity.
The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. The ONLY mass celebrated up to the Vatican II ʀɛʋօʟutιօn was the TLM, and the ʀɛʋօʟutιօn took place, with all the clergy and people going along.

A beautiful TLM with all the vestments, incense, and marble is not all there is to the faith. If a Catholic is sincere in seeking truth, God will provide them with good priest. There are very few real Catholics in the world, and God provides for them all.

Feelings oriented people like the writer above believe that a beautiful TLM will magically convert sinners if they could just see it. No, what converts people, is the example of Catholics LIVING the faith, and today there are scarcely any to be seen, even at a TLM.
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Offline DecemRationis

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Re: +Vigano on New Mass and Francis
« Reply #59 on: April 08, 2021, 07:57:48 AM »
Quote from: XavierSem on April 08, 2021, 06:47:53 AM

I hold that validly baptized Christians, who believe explicitly in the Trinity and Incarnation, confess Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, and err in good faith, are real Christians. Msgr. Fenton says such can be saved if they are in good faith.



They may be saved by believing in the central Gospel declaration - 1 Cor. 15:1-5; 2 Cor. 5:19. God is their judge.

But they are divisive schismatics. A very good book that doesn't get the attention it deserves is St. Francis de Sales's The Catholic Controversy.

One of many great points he makes in it against the Protestants is that the prophets of Israel, despite the fact that they saw and "protested" actual and real abominations and idolatry in Israel, never set up another altar, or set up another religion against the Temple cult established as the true faith by God. The original Prots rent the Church and now their "followers" maintain the separation.

Perhaps later I will find the quote from St. Francis and post it here as a jpeg from my book or in some other fashion if I can find online.

I would not acknowledge Prots as "real Christians," or in any way sanction the schism they take part in. Whether their faith will save them is in God's hands.
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