Author Topic: +Vigano on New Mass and Francis  (Read 1824 times)

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Offline SeanJohnson

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Re: +Vigano on New Mass and Francis
« Reply #45 on: April 07, 2021, 05:24:40 PM »
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  • You are behaving as a shameful bully and with ill will, sean johnson.
    We pray for all and their families of CathInfo., and you are in a sorry state.
    We will pray that you will stop your poor behavior, grow up, and realize that you
    are not pleasing GOD but are the one who is hurting others with your ill will.

    WAKE UP, SEAN JOHNSON.

    Oh, shut up already.  Sheesh!  

    All you’ve done for 2 pages (!!) is whine about your being insulted.

    PUHLEASE!

    Too bad you didn’t worry about insulting an archbishop, whom you stupidly suspect of being controlled by Opus Dei.

    Repent, or quit wasting all our time.

    Maybe you can start a new thread titled, “I’m Really Outraged by Sean Johnson, But I Don’t Think Twice About Slandering Archbishops.”

    Get lost, lady.
    Romans 5:20 "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    -I retract any and all statements I have made that are incongruent with the True Faith, and apologize for ever having made them-

    Offline 54rosary

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    Re: +Vigano on New Mass and Francis
    « Reply #46 on: April 07, 2021, 05:33:39 PM »
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  • Oh, shut up already.  Sheesh!  

    All you’ve done for 2 pages (!!) is whine about your being insulted.

    PUHLEASE!

    Too bad you didn’t worry about insulting an archbishop, whom you stupidly suspect of being controlled by Opus Dei.

    Repent, or quit wasting all our time.

    Maybe you can start a new thread titled, “I’m Really Outraged by Sean Johnson, But I Don’t Think Twice About Slandering Archbishops.”

    Get lost, lady.
    THE GRUMPIES IN YOUR STOMACH are causing you to make up things, and these things are right here in your quote  above and elsewhere in this topic.
    Now it seems you think that you are so important that your request for a new thread in your name is called for.
    Did I not tell you that you should be ashamed of yourself, sean johnson.  


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: +Vigano on New Mass and Francis
    « Reply #47 on: April 07, 2021, 05:36:32 PM »
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  • THE GRUMPIES IN YOUR STOMACH are causing you to make up things, and these things are right here in your quote  above and elsewhere in this topic.
    Now it seems you think that you are so important that your request for a new thread in your name is called for.
    Did I tell you that you should be ashamed of yourself, sean johnson.  

    I don’t think I can help you.

    Shaking off the dust...
    Romans 5:20 "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    -I retract any and all statements I have made that are incongruent with the True Faith, and apologize for ever having made them-

    Offline 54rosary

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    Re: +Vigano on New Mass and Francis
    « Reply #48 on: April 07, 2021, 05:41:40 PM »
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  • I don’t think I can help you.

    Shaking off the dust...
    GOD BLESS YOU,  sean johnson.

    Offline Mysterium Fidei

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    Re: +Vigano on New Mass and Francis
    « Reply #49 on: April 07, 2021, 06:35:28 PM »
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  • I'm pretty sure that Carlo Maria Viganò was consecrated in the new Novus Ordo rite, so I'm not so sure about "insulting an archbishop" part. I would say it's doubtful, at best. Maybe more like insulting Fr. Vigano.



    Offline Matto

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      • Julian Moore
    Re: +Vigano on New Mass and Francis
    « Reply #50 on: April 07, 2021, 06:40:47 PM »
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  • I hope Vigano's legit. But I don't follow him closely. I heard him talk about the "deep state" and the "deep Church". Does he name the Jew as the main enemy?
    I Love Watching Butterflies . . ..

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: +Vigano on New Mass and Francis
    « Reply #51 on: April 07, 2021, 07:47:42 PM »
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  • Quote
    The criticisms some have made of Vigano in this thread are reasonable, but not disturbing to those like me who have tracked his trajectory into tradition since 2018.

    Just in that span of three years, Vigano has:

    1) Acknowledged and explained (and apologized for) his fault for not rejecting the conciliar ʀɛʋօʟutιօn decades ago;

    2) Laid the blame at the conciliar and post-conciliar documents themselves (which he says contain not mere ambiguities, but actual doctrinal errors);

    3) Acknowledged the righteousness of Lefebvre and his apostolate;

    4) Rejected the conciliar church (calling it a counterfeit church);

    5) Questioned whether Vatican II is even a bona fide ecumenical council;

    6) Left the door open to the possibility that Francis is not a true pope;

    7) Encouraged everyone to abandon the new Mass and new Mass clergy;

    8) Made contact with Bishop Williamson and the Resistance;

    9) Advised faithful to stay home on Sunday if the Mass they would attend does not sanctify Sunday.

    His list of blunders pales in comparison:

    1) An ill-advised telespeech at the Jehrico march.

    As regards his leaving the door open a crack to attend a pius new Mass (if no traditional Mass is available), I will bet one year from now, that same crack will be half as wide, and will end up only remaining open for those in grave necessity (eg., Archbishop Lefebvre’s famous “cσncєnтrαтισn cαмρ” exception).  

    To me, this man is a gift from God to strengthen wavering souls.

    As for those who criticize him for “not doing anything,” you are blind.  Teaching the faith is the most important and most needed thing right now, and I believe God has awoken him to fulfill that roll.
    He sounds like any Novus Ordo lay person that finally gets it, changes his ways, and starts to go to the trad mass and listen to traditionalist that left decades ago. He has a long way to go. No new arrival has ever been anything but a novice, with a long way to go. I think that "trads" are desperate to crown anyone of importance that comes to realize what we have known for 60 years now.  Just like any other Novus Ordo convert, time will tell with Vigano.
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: +Vigano on New Mass and Francis
    « Reply #52 on: April 07, 2021, 10:21:52 PM »
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  • The new mass is the head of the V2, anti-Christ serpent.  It must be cut off and destroyed!  Once the new mass is 100% abolished, the Church will re-flourish.  The new mass is the “test of faith” of our times.  
    .
    Until +Vigano realizes this, he cannot be relied upon as having a clear direction out of the murky, V2 forest.  If he truly understood the abomination that it is, then his advice to “conservative” novus ordo-ites would be this:
    .
    “Avoid the new mass 100%, as it is a danger to your faith and is an utter blasphemy against God’s true sacrifice on the cross.  From now on, all true Catholics should only attend the Latin mass, no exceptions.  
    .
    If you do not have a Latin mass within 1 hour of you, pray to Almighty God for guidance on where to go and make plans to move.  Offer up this sacrifice for all the blasphemies which occur every Sunday and for the conversion of the pope.  Our Lady will guide you in this most Holy need.”


    Offline MMagdala

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    Re: +Vigano on New Mass and Francis
    « Reply #53 on: April 08, 2021, 03:25:47 AM »
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  • I thought that I had read that +Vigano recommended that the faithful avoid the N.O.M.

    Offline XavierSem

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    Re: +Vigano on New Mass and Francis
    « Reply #54 on: April 08, 2021, 04:33:41 AM »
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  • Brothers, Sisters, Friends, People. We're all Catholics and Christians here. Let's try to treat each other with gentleness, kindness, respect and charity, as Our Lord and His Apostles command us. Our Lord said people would know we are His disciples by our charity: "By this shall all men know that you are my disciples, if you have love one for another." (John 13:35). 

    For myself, I support Archbishop Vigano. His Grace has helped wake many people up and interest them in Tradition, I support his strong stand against taking abortion-tainted-ναccιnєs, and the good Archbishop's solid counsel on a variety of issues. Like Archbishop Lefebvre, Bishop Williamson, Bishop Fellay and other traditional Bishops, +Vigano encourages Priests to offer the traditional Mass, and faithful to support those who do. For faithful who have no other option, he says: "The faithful have a grave moral duty at least to seek out a Mass celebrated with decorum and respect by a pious Priest who administers Holy Communion on the tongue".

    What's really urgently needed imo are more traditional Priests who offer the Tridentine Mass. There are by now a great majority of faithful Catholics, who go to the NOM, who would love to assist at the TLM if they had the opportunity. In another thread, it was discussed there may be 10 million SSPX Catholics. But there are only around 700 SSPX Priests, and one Priest historically has only been able to take care of around 1000-3000 faithful, so 700 can only provide for the pastoral needs of around 1 million to 2 million Catholics. Tradition urgently needs many more Priests, including diocesan Priests, who offer the TLM, and traditional Catholics should labor to convince primarily Bishops and Priests to offer the TLM in their parishes and dioceses for the faithful.

    All traditional Catholic fraternities united would account for barely 2000 Priests. There may be 20-30 million traditional Catholics in the world. The number of diocesan Priests offering the TLM has to increase to meet the needs of the faithful. There is no other way imo. Thankfully, a larger number of young Priests, especially after Summorum Pontificum, love the TLM and and are learning to offer it. But even more are needed, to meet the increasing demand for the TLM. 
    Make this Life Offering to the Twin Hearts of Jesus and Mary today! Don't delay! You can Save Souls!

    (1) All your family members will be saved (2) Your loved ones in Purgatory will be released, and (3) you yourself will not need Purgatory if you make it.
    https://marianapostolate.com/life-offering

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: +Vigano on New Mass and Francis
    « Reply #55 on: April 08, 2021, 06:11:04 AM »
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  • Brothers, Sisters, Friends, People. We're all Catholics and Christians here.
    I just want to point out to you that Catholics are the only true Christians. 
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?


    Offline XavierSem

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    Re: +Vigano on New Mass and Francis
    « Reply #56 on: April 08, 2021, 06:47:53 AM »
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  • Hi, Quo Vadis. So do you disagree with the Catholic Encyclopedia then?

    I hold that validly baptized Christians, who believe explicitly in the Trinity and Incarnation, confess Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, and err in good faith, are real Christians. Msgr. Fenton says such can be saved if they are in good faith.

    CE: "The Catholic Church of the twentieth century is vastly in advance of that of the sixteenth. She has made up her loss in political power and worldly wealth by increased spiritual influences and efficiency; her adherents are more widespread, more numerous, more fervent than at any time in her history, and they are bound to the central Government at Rome by a more filial affection and a clearer sense of dutyReligious education is abundantly provided for clergy and laity; religious practice, morality, and works of charity are flourishing; the Catholic mission-field is world-wide and rich in harvest. The hierarchy was never so united, never so devoted to the pope. The Roman unity is successfully resisting the inroads of sects, of philosophies, of politics. 

    Can our separated brethren tell a similar tale of their many Churches, even in lands where they are ruled and backed by the secular power? We do not rejoice at their disintegration, at their falling into religious indifference, or returning into political parties. No, for any shred of Christianity is better than blank worldliness. But we do draw this conclusion: that after four centuries the Catholic principle of authority is still working out the salvation of the Church, whereas among Protestants the principle of Subjectivism is destroying what remains of their former faith and driving multitudes into religious indifference and estrangement from the supernatural." https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12495a.htm

    "Any shred of Christianity is better than blank worldliness". They have a partial Christianity that will always be incomplete in itself.

    Catholic Christianity is Complete Christianity, the full 100% Catholic and Apostolic Faith. But other Christians have valid Baptism etc.

    Every effort should be made to bring separated Christians back to the Catholic and Apostolic Church. They remain deprived of many gifts.

    God Bless.
    Make this Life Offering to the Twin Hearts of Jesus and Mary today! Don't delay! You can Save Souls!

    (1) All your family members will be saved (2) Your loved ones in Purgatory will be released, and (3) you yourself will not need Purgatory if you make it.
    https://marianapostolate.com/life-offering

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: +Vigano on New Mass and Francis
    « Reply #57 on: April 08, 2021, 07:25:38 AM »
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  • Hi, Quo Vadis. So do you disagree with the Catholic Encyclopedia then?

    I hold that validly baptized Christians, who believe explicitly in the Trinity and Incarnation, confess Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, and err in good faith, are real Christians. Msgr. Fenton says such can be saved if they are in good faith.

    CE: "The Catholic Church of the twentieth century is vastly in advance of that of the sixteenth. She has made up her loss in political power and worldly wealth by increased spiritual influences and efficiency; her adherents are more widespread, more numerous, more fervent than at any time in her history, and they are bound to the central Government at Rome by a more filial affection and a clearer sense of duty. Religious education is abundantly provided for clergy and laity; religious practice, morality, and works of charity are flourishing; the Catholic mission-field is world-wide and rich in harvest. The hierarchy was never so united, never so devoted to the pope. The Roman unity is successfully resisting the inroads of sects, of philosophies, of politics.

    Can our separated brethren tell a similar tale of their many Churches, even in lands where they are ruled and backed by the secular power? We do not rejoice at their disintegration, at their falling into religious indifference, or returning into political parties. No, for any shred of Christianity is better than blank worldliness. But we do draw this conclusion: that after four centuries the Catholic principle of authority is still working out the salvation of the Church, whereas among Protestants the principle of Subjectivism is destroying what remains of their former faith and driving multitudes into religious indifference and estrangement from the supernatural." https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12495a.htm

    "Any shred of Christianity is better than blank worldliness". They have a partial Christianity that will always be incomplete in itself.

    Catholic Christianity is Complete Christianity, the full 100% Catholic and Apostolic Faith. But other Christians have valid Baptism etc.

    Every effort should be made to bring separated Christians back to the Catholic and Apostolic Church. They remain deprived of many gifts.

    God Bless.
    Totally Vatican II, sickening, a religion that is like a bottle of strawberry jam on a crumb of bread. Totally effeminate, devoid of all Catholic militancy.   It is the mindset that got us to the ʀɛʋօʟutιօn of the 1960's.

    To bring Catholicism back in order, one needs to get away from 20th century teachings. Feelings oriented people like the writer above should be avoided like the plague.

    St. Peter Julian Eymard – Bad Catholic vs Good Protestant

    People often say, “It is better to be a good Protestant than a bad Catholic.” That is not true! That would mean that one could be saved without the true faith. No. A bad Catholic remains a child of the family, although a prodigal; and however great a sinner he may be, he still has a right to mercy. Through his faith, a bad Catholic is nearer to God than a Protestant, for he is a member of the household, whereas the heretic is not. And how hard it is to make him become one!
    St. Peter Julian Eymard
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: +Vigano on New Mass and Francis
    « Reply #58 on: April 08, 2021, 07:31:30 AM »
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  • I hold that validly baptized Christians, who believe explicitly in the Trinity and Incarnation, confess Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, and err in good faith, are real Christians. Msgr. Fenton says such can be saved if they are in good faith.

    You "hold" error.  No, they are not REAL Christians.  Here you go again subjectivizing faith.  Those "Christians" can believe anything they want, but if they don't believe it on the basis of the proper rule of faith, they do not have the proper formal motive of faith.  St. Thomas clearly teaches this, that even though such people materially happen to believe some true doctrine, if they do not hold it with the correct rule of faith, then they do not have the supernatural virtue of faith.  Whether they are in good faith or bad faith, if they lack a supernatural faith based upon the rule of faith established by God, then their rule of faith ultimately reduces to believing what they want to believe.  If they are in good faith, then God will undoubtedly bring them to the true faith.

    If these people are able to be saved, then they are in the Church, since there's no salvation outside the Church.  Therefore, you too hold the false Vatican II ecclesiology where the Church subsists in the Catholic core but then extends outside of it.

    FORMAL heresy has nothing to do with "sincerity" and "good faith".  Formal heresy refers to whether or not someone believes what he believes with the correct formal motive of faith that rests upon the proper rule of faith.  Material heresy deals with ignorance or a mistake in understanding WHAT has been taught and must be believed.  Formal heresy refers to WHY it is believed.  That is why it's said that one who rejects a single dogma rejects all of them because it's an implicit repudiation of the rule of faith on which all dogma rests.  Protestants are all by definition formal heretics, regardless of how "sincere" they are.

    It would be one thing if you referred to these people as Christians in a loose sense, but calling them REAL Christians?  That's absurd.  You've been reading too much Valtorta.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: +Vigano on New Mass and Francis
    « Reply #59 on: April 08, 2021, 07:41:16 AM »
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  • St. Thomas Aquinas:
    Quote
    The formal object of faith is the First Truth as manifested in Holy Scripture and in the Church's teaching. Hence if anyone does not adhere as to an infallible and Divine rule to the Church's teaching, which proceeds from the Church's truth manifested in Holy Scripture, such an one has not the habit of faith, but holds the truths of faith not by faith but by some other principle. (II-II, Q. v, a. 3).

    Protestants therefore lack the true habit (aka supernatural virtue) of faith because whatever they believe is based on "some other principle."  THIS is what is meant by FORMAL heresy, the PRINCIPLE by which one believes whatever is believed.

    Over the past three or four hundred years, the subjectivizers have worked at redefining "formality" into "sincerity" or subjective good faith, and the root cause error of Vatican II, as Bishop Williamson rightly points out, is this same subjectivism that has been trending since the so-called Renaissance.


     

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