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Author Topic: Vigano on a Decades-Old Pseudo Magisterium  (Read 9227 times)

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Offline gladius_veritatis

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Re: Vigano on a Decades-Old Pseudo Magisterium
« Reply #60 on: November 08, 2023, 07:20:59 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on November 08, 2023, 07:04:02 PM
    Perhaps you did not know that +Vigano is quite wealthy, and has no need of stumping for trad-dollars?

    Being wealthy is hardly a decent argument against seeking to fleece generous, passionate, desperate people.  I don't know or care if he does or does not, but his wealth or lack thereof means and proves absolutely nothing.  Joel O'Steen is loaded, yes?  Does that stop him from seeking more wealth by nefarious means?  Additionally, one might be excused for not trusting a wealthy cleric, in 2023 more than ever.  Not exactly in harmony with the Gospel, eh?
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Vigano on a Decades-Old Pseudo Magisterium
    « Reply #61 on: November 08, 2023, 07:30:44 PM »
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    • Quote from: gladius_veritatis on November 08, 2023, 07:20:59 PM
    Being wealthy is hardly a decent argument against seeking to fleece generous, passionate, desperate people.  I don't know or care if he does or does not, but his wealth or lack thereof means and proves absolutely nothing.  Joel O'Steen is loaded, yes?  Does that stop him from seeking more wealth by nefarious means?  Additionally, one might be excused for not trusting a wealthy cleric, in 2023 more than ever.  Not exactly in harmony with the Gospel, eh?

    GV-

    Why is it impossible that Vigano is simply a Novus Ordo convert with pure intentions, and accomplishing good when few others are?
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Vigano on a Decades-Old Pseudo Magisterium
    « Reply #62 on: November 08, 2023, 07:38:30 PM »
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    • Quote from: Quo vadis Domine on November 08, 2023, 06:14:41 PM
    Thanks Vermont for pointing this out. Yes, it was a *single* reference and we accepted it, end of story.
    Shhh...dont tell Pax.  :laugh1:
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    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    Re: Vigano on a Decades-Old Pseudo Magisterium
    « Reply #63 on: November 08, 2023, 07:44:39 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on November 08, 2023, 07:30:44 PM
    GV-

    Why is it impossible that Vigano is simply a Novus Ordo convert with pure intentions, and accomplishing good when few others are?

    I never said or implied it was impossible.  Acting as if I did so helps no one.  I said being rich isn't an argument against seeking more money.  Fact.

    He may be more than I see or know, which would hardly be a shock. I am a mere man, and a modern man at that, so my vision and perception cannot be trusted.  I readily admit that I don't follow him or anything ecclesial as closely as I used to follow such.  It bores and discourages me at this point.  I would love to see him rise up and rock the world.  We desperately need a hero and I will happily accept anyone who is the genuine article.
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Vigano on a Decades-Old Pseudo Magisterium
    « Reply #64 on: November 08, 2023, 08:19:13 PM »
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    • Quote
    I would love to see him rise up and rock the world.  We desperately need a hero and I will happily accept anyone who is the genuine article.
    No one is Trad-dom is a hero as you describe.  Why are people expecting +Vigano to be the second coming of St John the Baptist?  If you aren’t, others are.  And when he’s just a normal bishop, who has woken up to V2 and is trying to do *some* good in his realm of experience (ie politics), he gets criticized (by many) for not being a walking saint.  It’s so childish. 
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: Vigano on a Decades-Old Pseudo Magisterium
    « Reply #65 on: November 09, 2023, 01:08:28 PM »
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    • Quote from: songbird on November 08, 2023, 06:28:47 PM
    I agree with Meg.  Vigano's solution is "himself"  and of course $$ goes with it when you say what itchy ears want to hear. 

    Thank you, Songbird. His solution, as you say, is indeed himself.

    IMO, he says what people want to hear, but is our Catholic Faith to be based on those who tell us what we want to hear? It seems to me that we should seek out the authority of those who tell us the hard truths of the Catholic Faith, since the Catholic Faith is difficult to live up to in practice. But no, that's not what's important to some here. Does desperation really allow us to see reality clearly?

    I should mention that I have no hatred or malice toward Vigano, but I cannot, despite the over-the-top emotional reactions of some of the men here, accept him as a good example of true Traditional Catholicism. There are just too many red flags for that.

    I now expect to be attacked by the emotional ones here. That's fine.
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    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Vigano on a Decades-Old Pseudo Magisterium
    « Reply #66 on: November 09, 2023, 02:21:45 PM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on November 09, 2023, 01:08:28 PM
    IMO, he says what people want to hear, but is our Catholic Faith to be based on those who tell us what we want to hear? It seems to me that we should seek out the authority of those who tell us the hard truths of the Catholic Faith, since the Catholic Faith is difficult to live up to in practice. But no, that's not what's important to some here. Does desperation really allow us to see reality clearly?

    Can you please list a few of the "hard truths" Vigano is avoiding telling us about?
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    Offline songbird

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    Re: Vigano on a Decades-Old Pseudo Magisterium
    « Reply #67 on: November 09, 2023, 02:48:28 PM »
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    • Why does Vigano mingle with Reawakening America.  Freemason, CLAY Clark and Roseanne Barr, Jew.  This group has a list of the so-called churches they have had talks. Note these churches bear no names: Not Lutheran, or Baptist, or presbyterian, or methodist. or Unitarian.  Strange names like River Church for example.
    What is the group up to, their aims?  Oh, yes and not so-called catholic church.  What I read is sympathy for the jew?.  Just remember what Our Lady said, in The Mystical City of God, after her son's death.  The demons will bring evil into the world via the jews.  Jews will work to the top.  The church set up inquisitions just for that purpose.  What I question about the talks of Reawakening America, is the possibility of Noahide laws with the combining of different so-called religions/cults.

    Vigano reminds me of a cat, sitting on a fence, who leans both ways.   If the inquisition was up and going, he would be at the inquisition, being questioned of his actions.
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Vigano on a Decades-Old Pseudo Magisterium
    « Reply #68 on: November 09, 2023, 03:13:56 PM »
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    • Quote from: songbird on November 09, 2023, 02:48:28 PM
    Why does Vigano mingle with Reawakening America.  Freemason, CLAY Clark and Roseanne Barr, Jew.  This group has a list of the so-called churches they have had talks. Note these churches bear no names: Not Lutheran, or Baptist, or presbyterian, or methodist. or Unitarian.  Strange names like River Church for example.
    What is the group up to, their aims?  Oh, yes and not so-called catholic church.  What I read is sympathy for the jew?.  Just remember what Our Lady said, in The Mystical City of God, after her son's death.  The demons will bring evil into the world via the jews.  Jews will work to the top.  The church set up inquisitions just for that purpose.  What I question about the talks of Reawakening America, is the possibility of Noahide laws with the combining of different so-called religions/cults.

    Vigano reminds me of a cat, sitting on a fence, who leans both ways.  If the inquisition was up and going, he would be at the inquisition, being questioned of his actions.

    According to this rationale, +Lefebvre was a "fence sitter" for having supported Action Francaise (i.e., a political organization dedicated to the restoration of the French monarchy, condemned by the Church and headed by atheists, but supported by practically all conservative Catholics at the time).

    You are logically obligated to condemn +Lefebvre for having supported it.

    A bit about Action Francaise: https://www.encyclopedia.com/religion/encyclopedias-almanacs-transcripts-and-maps/action-francaise 

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    Offline Meg

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    Re: Vigano on a Decades-Old Pseudo Magisterium
    « Reply #69 on: November 09, 2023, 03:53:56 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on November 09, 2023, 03:13:56 PM
    According to this rationale, +Lefebvre was a "fence sitter" for having supported Action Francaise (i.e., a political organization dedicated to the restoration of the French monarchy, condemned by the Church and headed by atheists, but supported by practically all conservative Catholics at the time).

    You are logically obligated to condemn +Lefebvre for having supported it.

    A bit about Action Francaise: https://www.encyclopedia.com/religion/encyclopedias-almanacs-transcripts-and-maps/action-francaise

    What proof do you have that +ABL supported Action Francaise? Because I can provide proof to the contrary. 
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    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Vigano on a Decades-Old Pseudo Magisterium
    « Reply #70 on: November 09, 2023, 04:01:46 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on November 09, 2023, 03:13:56 PM
    According to this rationale, +Lefebvre was a "fence sitter" for having supported Action Francaise (i.e., a political organization dedicated to the restoration of the French monarchy, condemned by the Church and headed by atheists, but supported by practically all conservative Catholics at the time).

    You are logically obligated to condemn +Lefebvre for having supported it.

    A bit about Action Francaise: https://www.encyclopedia.com/religion/encyclopedias-almanacs-transcripts-and-maps/action-francaise
    According to this interview with Michael Davies in November, 1976, ABL denies any connection with this movement:
    ....

    Michael Davies: The Catholic Information Office (of England and Wales) has initiated a publicity campaign intended to link you with Action francaise. Have you ever been associated with this movement?

    Mgr. Lefebvre: Never.
    ....

    Footnote to this Interview

    As regards Action francaise, in a lengthy press conference given at Econe on 15 September 1976, Mgr. Lefebvre stated that he had not known the late Charles Maurras (founder of the movement); he had not even read his books; he is not linked with Action francaise in any way; he does not read its journal Aspects de la France; he does not know those who edit it; he regretted the fact that it was being sold outside the hall in which his Mass at Lille was celebrated.

    The End of a Momentous Year (sspxasia.com)
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Vigano on a Decades-Old Pseudo Magisterium
    « Reply #71 on: November 09, 2023, 04:40:29 PM »
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    • Quote from: 2Vermont on November 09, 2023, 04:01:46 PM
    According to this interview with Michael Davies in November, 1976, ABL denies any connection with this movement:
    ....

    Michael Davies: The Catholic Information Office (of England and Wales) has initiated a publicity campaign intended to link you with Action francaise. Have you ever been associated with this movement?

    Mgr. Lefebvre: Never.
    ....

    Footnote to this Interview

    As regards Action francaise, in a lengthy press conference given at Econe on 15 September 1976, Mgr. Lefebvre stated that he had not known the late Charles Maurras (founder of the movement); he had not even read his books; he is not linked with Action francaise in any way; he does not read its journal Aspects de la France; he does not know those who edit it; he regretted the fact that it was being sold outside the hall in which his Mass at Lille was celebrated.

    The End of a Momentous Year (sspxasia.com)

    +de Mallerais says otherwise.

    In the Biography, he cites Lefebvre (p. 49):



    Pope St. Pius X was also very much in support of Action Francaise, and refused to condemn it.
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: Vigano on a Decades-Old Pseudo Magisterium
    « Reply #72 on: November 09, 2023, 04:45:54 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on November 09, 2023, 04:40:29 PM
    +de Mallerais says otherwise.

    In the Biography, he cites Lefebvre (p. 49):



    Pope St. Pius X was also very much in support of Action Francaise, and refused to condemn it.

    You said previously that +ABL supported Action Francaise. In what way, exactly, did he support it? By not condemning it, this means that he supported it?
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    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Vigano on a Decades-Old Pseudo Magisterium
    « Reply #73 on: November 09, 2023, 04:56:39 PM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on November 09, 2023, 04:45:54 PM
    You said previously that +ABL supported Action Francaise. In what way, exactly, did he support it? 

    In exactly the way he explains it to you in his own words cited above?  

    Did that just fly right over your head?
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: Vigano on a Decades-Old Pseudo Magisterium
    « Reply #74 on: November 09, 2023, 05:02:51 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on November 09, 2023, 04:56:39 PM
    In exactly the way he explains it to you in his own words cited above? 

    Did that just fly right over your head?

    +ABL does not say that he supports Action Francaise. You said that. So where does he show that he supports Action Francaise?

    Oh, and where does he say that he speaks at Action Francaise conferences, or that he refers to the adherents of such conferences as the "People of God," as Vigano does? And where does he implore the adherents of Action Francaise to start an [ecuмenical] anti-globalist alliance, as Vigano does? +ABL says a few kind things about Action Francaise, but he had absolutely nothing to do with them. 
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29
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