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Author Topic: +Vigano Equates Vatican II with False Council of Pistoia  (Read 3917 times)

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Online Ladislaus

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Re: +Vigano Equates Vatican II with False Council of Pistoia
« Reply #60 on: September 24, 2020, 08:12:15 AM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on September 24, 2020, 07:37:00 AM
    Drew is 100% right, dogma is the rule of faith, ...

    No, he's been debunked over and over again on this (with many citations and evidence).  This, as explained in my previous post, is nothing more than an extension of Protestantism.  Protestants claim that Scripture is the rule of faith, and can stand alone as such.  Those Traditionalists who adopt this attitude are merely extending the same concept to a second source of Revelation.

    St. Augustine articulated the Catholic attitude in saying that he would not believe the Scriptures themselves had the Church not proposed them to him for belief.  It is none other than the Magisterium that is our PROXIMATE RULE OF FAITH.
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    Offline Maria Auxiliadora

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    Re: +Vigano Equates Vatican II with False Council of Pistoia
    « Reply #61 on: September 24, 2020, 03:17:16 PM »
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    • Laudislaus,

    Drew has been "debunked"? :facepalm: Below is the thread which was locked after 40K viewings in May of 2018. To this day, it is being read and has over 80.5K viewings and even though your posts were wiped out because you offered nothing but insults, in all of Drew's replies, you are fully quoted as was everyone he replied to on the thread. To those interested, Drew started posting on page 4. I should point out the thread becomes increasingly more interesting after a few pages.

    https://www.cathinfo.com/sspx-resistance-news/is-father-ringrose-dumping-the-r-r-crowd/45/
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    Offline Struthio

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    Re: +Vigano Equates Vatican II with False Council of Pistoia
    « Reply #62 on: September 24, 2020, 07:49:04 PM »
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    • Quote from: Clemens Maria on September 24, 2020, 07:15:06 AM
    But drew believes that the proximate rule of faith is the set of dogmatic doctrines of the Church.

    Yes, and that's correct and very important. It's the neomodernists who make the(ir fake) Pope the rule of faith such that the "Pope" can reinterpret Church doctrine as he pleases.


    Quote from: Clemens Maria on September 24, 2020, 07:15:06 AM
    This is why he believes Bergoglio is the true pope and also why he believes he can justly resist the pope and use his own private judgment to overrule the pope’s decisions.

    As far as I understood him, Dr. Drew prefers to believe that Bergoglio is the true pope, because he thinks that Pastor aeternus forces him to believe so. It's not because he correctly states that the proximate rule of faith are the infallible teachings of the Church. I on the other hand, believe that the consummation of the age has come, and that there are no apostolic shepherds or a Pope, anymore. And to judge that those who say they are apostles (Rev 2:2) aren't such, I measure them using the rule of faith.



    Quote from: Clemens Maria on September 24, 2020, 07:15:06 AM
    The Church on the other hand teaches that obedience to the pope is necessary for salvation.  But it was always necessary to use our own private judgment to identify the pope and the true hierarchy of the Church. E.g. St Vincent Ferrar vs St Catherine of Siena during the Great Western Schism.

    Yes, sure. But I have one objection: It's not "private judgment" as you say. We don't use "private judgment" to decide whether someone who says he's an apostle is or isn't an apostle. Rather, we use the rule of faith. We use the rule of faith to determine whether he's a manifest heretic or he isn't. If he is, then we reject him as an apostle. Dr. Drew chooses to resist him, while I prefer to go with the unanimous opinion of the Father's as passed down by St. Robert Bellarmine and I call him a fake-apostle.


    Quote from: Clemens Maria on September 24, 2020, 07:15:06 AM
    So if you believe that it is the pope who is the proximate rule of faith, then in order to know what the Church teaches, you first have to identify who is the pope or in the case of an interregnum, who are the legitimate hierarchy of the Church.

    If you believe that it is the Pope who is the proximate rule of faith, then you believe what the neomodernists believe. Then you put a man above defined dogma. Then Popes, or rather "Popes", can fool you every day.

    Any man must to follow his conscience, anyway (St. Thomas Aquinas). And all we have to judge properly, are the infallible truths fallen from heaven and written down by the Magisterium of the Church. The only way to reject those who call themselves Magisterium, but aren't, is to use the past Magisterium. When contradictions start, then they aren't.

    And that's not "private judgment". We don't use private rules, we use the rule of faith as proposed by the Church of Our Lord.

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    Men are not bound, or able to read hearts; but when they see that someone is a heretic by his external works, they judge him to be a heretic pure and simple ... Jerome points this out. (St. Robert Bellarmine)

    Offline Struthio

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    Re: +Vigano Equates Vatican II with False Council of Pistoia
    « Reply #63 on: September 24, 2020, 07:55:06 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on September 24, 2020, 08:12:15 AM
    Quote from: Stubborn
    Drew is 100% right, dogma is the rule of faith, ...
    No, he's been debunked over and over again on this (with many citations and evidence).  This, as explained in my previous post, is nothing more than an extension of Protestantism.  Protestants claim that Scripture is the rule of faith, and can stand alone as such.  Those Traditionalists who adopt this attitude are merely extending the same concept to a second source of Revelation.

    St. Augustine articulated the Catholic attitude in saying that he would not believe the Scriptures themselves had the Church not proposed them to him for belief.  It is none other than the Magisterium that is our PROXIMATE RULE OF FAITH.

    No, Dr. Drew is right, Dr. Drew is not a protestant, rather you are a neomodernist. I recommend you go back and study again and again the hundreds of lines of arduousness he spent on you personally.
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    Men are not bound, or able to read hearts; but when they see that someone is a heretic by his external works, they judge him to be a heretic pure and simple ... Jerome points this out. (St. Robert Bellarmine)

    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Re: +Vigano Equates Vatican II with False Council of Pistoia
    « Reply #64 on: September 24, 2020, 08:31:20 PM »
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    • https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05766b.htm

    See above article.  I think we are not using precise terminology.  I’m talking about the living proximate rule of faith and you and drew are talking about the inanimate proximate rule of faith.  We can use the inanimate proximate rule of faith as an aid to identify the true Catholic clergy but once we have identified who is the pope we don’t use the inanimate proximate rule of faith to double check his fidelity to the Church’s teachings.  Rather it is his job to make sure we are faithful.  We need only obey him.  Our Lord prayed that Peter’s faith would not fail.  To imply that prayer was in vain is blasphemous.  This is why St Robert Bellarmine believed it was impossible that a pope even in his private teachings could ever fall away from the faith.  But it certainly is possible that imposters have duped the whole world into believing that they are successors of Peter.  Except for the elect that is.  Yes, it certainly is possible that we have no successors of the Apostles at the moment.  And it is possible that we are experiencing the consummation of the world.  But we don’t have moral certainty about the later.  There could be a legitimate election which produces a true Catholic pope.  I have heard there is some movement of traditional Catholic clergy in Rome to do something.  So we shall see.  God’s will be done.
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    Offline Struthio

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    Re: +Vigano Equates Vatican II with False Council of Pistoia
    « Reply #65 on: September 24, 2020, 09:02:02 PM »
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    • Quote from: Clemens Maria on September 24, 2020, 08:31:20 PM
    https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05766b.htm

    See above article.  I think we are not using precise terminology.  I’m talking about the living proximate rule of faith and you and drew are talking about the inanimate proximate rule of faith.  We can use the inanimate proximate rule of faith as an aid to identify the true Catholic clergy but once we have identified who is the pope we don’t use the inanimate proximate rule of faith to double check his fidelity to the Church’s teachings.  Rather it is his job to make sure we are faithful.  We need only obey him.  Our Lord prayed that Peter’s faith would not fail.  To imply that prayer was in vain is blasphemous.  This is why St Robert Bellarmine believed it was impossible that a pope even in his private teachings could ever fall away from the faith.  But it certainly is possible that imposters have duped the whole world into believing that they are successors of Peter.  Except for the elect that is.  Yes, it certainly is possible that we have no successors of the Apostles at the moment.  And it is possible that we are experiencing the consummation of the world.  But we don’t have moral certainty about the later.  There could be a legitimate election which produces a true Catholic pope.  I have heard there is some movement of traditional Catholic clergy in Rome to do something.  So we shall see.  God’s will be done.

    I recommend to prefer infallible Church teaching. What is an article written by a man named "Hugh Pope" compared to infallible Church teaching, e.g. of the Council of Trent? In various docuмents of the holy Synod of Trent we find statements like the following:

    Quote from: General Council of Trent: Twenty-Third Session
    But It [the holy Synod] hath resolved to condemn whatsoever things are contrary thereunto, in express and specific canons, in the manner following; in order that all men, with the help of Christ, using the rule of faith, may, in the midst of the darkness of so many errors, more easily be able to recognise and to hold Catholic truth.

    The infallible Council of Trent says that we should use their teachings as the rule of faith, to recognise the Catholic truth in the midst of the darkness of so many errors.

    And it's not "private judgment"! It's "all men, with the help of Christ, using the rule of faith, in the midst of the darkness of so many errors, more easily being able to recognise and to hold Catholic truth."
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    Offline Struthio

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    Re: +Vigano Equates Vatican II with False Council of Pistoia
    « Reply #66 on: September 24, 2020, 09:16:33 PM »
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    • Quote from: Clemens Maria on September 24, 2020, 08:31:20 PM
    Yes, it certainly is possible that we have no successors of the Apostles at the moment.  And it is possible that we are experiencing the consummation of the world.  But we don’t have moral certainty about the later.  

    I do have moral certainty. But others typically do not.


    Quote from: Clemens Maria on September 24, 2020, 08:31:20 PM
    There could be a legitimate election which produces a true Catholic pope.  I have heard there is some movement of traditional Catholic clergy in Rome to do something.  So we shall see.  God’s will be done.

    "Traditional Catholic clergy" doesn't have more apostolic authority that you or I do. If they elect a Pope, then it's indeed your or my "private judgment" to accept or reject the candidate. Then we cannot rely on any Church teaching, which explains when and how apostolic mandates can be created out of thin air.
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    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Re: +Vigano Equates Vatican II with False Council of Pistoia
    « Reply #67 on: September 24, 2020, 09:23:01 PM »
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    • And how do we know that the Council of Trent is true Catholic doctrine?  .... Answer: the Pope approved it.
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    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Re: +Vigano Equates Vatican II with False Council of Pistoia
    « Reply #68 on: September 24, 2020, 09:23:54 PM »
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    • Where Peter is, there is the Church.
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    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Re: +Vigano Equates Vatican II with False Council of Pistoia
    « Reply #69 on: September 24, 2020, 09:25:02 PM »
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    • Not where Peter is we can proof text the existence of the Church.
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    Offline Struthio

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    Re: +Vigano Equates Vatican II with False Council of Pistoia
    « Reply #70 on: September 24, 2020, 09:31:56 PM »
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    • Quote from: Clemens Maria on September 24, 2020, 09:23:01 PM
    And how do we know that the Council of Trent is true Catholic doctrine?  .... Answer: the Pope approved it.

    Not enough! The Council of Trent doesn't contradict what was known as Catholic doctrine so far.
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    Offline Struthio

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    Re: +Vigano Equates Vatican II with False Council of Pistoia
    « Reply #71 on: September 24, 2020, 09:36:42 PM »
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    • Quote from: Clemens Maria on September 24, 2020, 09:23:54 PM
    Where Peter is, there is the Church.

    Yes sure, and where Angelo Giuseppe, Giovanni Battista, Albino, Karol Józef, Joseph Aloisius, and Jorge Mario are, there is the Antichurch.

    They mock the Church.
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    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Re: +Vigano Equates Vatican II with False Council of Pistoia
    « Reply #72 on: September 24, 2020, 09:36:53 PM »
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    • The Catholic clergy of Rome have the responsibility and the right to elect their bishop, the Bishop of Rome.  Normally the voting is reserved to the Cardinals.  But Billot, Journet, Salvieri? And others all recognize that in extraordinary circuмstances it is possible for the vote to devolve to the rest of the clergy of Rome.  It could even devolve to an imperfect general council of the Church. The Catholic clergy most certainly do have more authority than laymen such as you and I.  They are the hierarchy after all.  See the definition of hierarchy in Parente’s Dictionary of Dogmatic Theology.  Hint: the hierarchy is not limited to the Successors of the Apostles.

    Google John Daly’s romeward.com site for papal elections.  He has a good article on it.  Also John Lane has an article by James Larrabee about elections on his Bellarmine Forums site.
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    Offline Maria Auxiliadora

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    Re: +Vigano Equates Vatican II with False Council of Pistoia
    « Reply #73 on: September 24, 2020, 09:38:41 PM »
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    • Quote from: Clemens Maria on September 24, 2020, 08:31:20 PM
    https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05766b.htm

    See above article.  I think we are not using precise terminology.  I’m talking about the living proximate rule of faith and you and drew are talking about the inanimate proximate rule of faith.  We can use the inanimate proximate rule of faith as an aid to identify the true Catholic clergy but once we have identified who is the pope we don’t use the inanimate proximate rule of faith to double check his fidelity to the Church’s teachings.  Rather it is his job to make sure we are faithful.  We need only obey him.  Our Lord prayed that Peter’s faith would not fail.  To imply that prayer was in vain is blasphemous.  This is why St Robert Bellarmine believed it was impossible that a pope even in his private teachings could ever fall away from the faith.  But it certainly is possible that imposters have duped the whole world into believing that they are successors of Peter.  Except for the elect that is.  Yes, it certainly is possible that we have no successors of the Apostles at the moment.  And it is possible that we are experiencing the consummation of the world.  But we don’t have moral certainty about the later.  There could be a legitimate election which produces a true Catholic pope.  I have heard there is some movement of traditional Catholic clergy in Rome to do something.  So we shall see.  God’s will be done.

    That has been addressed here:

    https://www.cathinfo.com/sspx-resistance-news/is-father-ringrose-dumping-the-r-r-crowd/msg601723/#msg601723
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    Offline Struthio

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    Re: +Vigano Equates Vatican II with False Council of Pistoia
    « Reply #74 on: September 24, 2020, 09:38:54 PM »
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    • Quote from: Clemens Maria on September 24, 2020, 09:36:53 PM
    The Catholic clergy of Rome have the responsibility and the right to elect their bishop, the Bishop of Rome.  Normally the voting is reserved to the Cardinals.  But Billot, Journet, Salvieri? And others all recognize that in extraordinary circuмstances it is possible for the vote to devolve to the rest of the clergy of Rome.  It could even devolve to an imperfect general council of the Church. The Catholic clergy most certainly do have more authority than laymen such as you and I.  They are the hierarchy after all.  See the definition of hierarchy in Parente’s Dictionary of Dogmatic Theology.  Hint: the hierarchy is not limited to the Successors of the Apostles.

    Google John Daly’s romeward.com site for papal elections.  He has a good article on it.  Also John Lane has an article by James Larrabee about elections on his Bellarmine Forums site.

    Which "Catholic clergy of Rome" are you talking about? Can you name one?
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