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Author Topic: +Vigano Equates Vatican II with False Council of Pistoia  (Read 3920 times)

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Offline SeanJohnson

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Re: +Vigano Equates Vatican II with False Council of Pistoia
« Reply #45 on: September 23, 2020, 02:35:35 PM »
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  • 1&2) So what, are you now saying that Vatican 2 was just a council of the "Conciliar Church" and not the Catholic Church at all then? Gee whizz, problem solved, I guess.

    3) Showing how a line of reasoning is the same as what heretics used to reject the Church is a rather good way of showing how said line of reasoning is problematic, is it not?

    4) And how do we know what an ecuмenical council is? Usually the presumption is just "if the Church says it is, it is". And then if the Church tells us it's ecuмenical, we can be sure its teachings are true. But with this universality argument, now the Church telling us it's ecuмenical isn't good enough, and we must judge for ourselves(with our fallible judgements) whether or not the council possesses universality. So we have no way of knowing for sure which councils are ecuмenical or not.

    1&2) Of course.  What is novel is conciliar; what is true is Catholic.  The separation is not complete.  One pope for two churches.  http://www.dominicansavrille.us/is-there-a-conciliar-church/ 

    3) Except that you have removed that line of reasoning from context, so that it wwould appear to apply equally to infallible dogmatic definitions and certainly infallible ecuмenical councils, and those which you yourself acknowledge teach error.

    4) You are making Vigano's argument for him: He said people presume it is ecuмenical and therefore infallible simply because of the form of teaching, without reference to the substance.  It is the substance which must meet the criteria of infallibility and universality, in order to attain the level of dogmatic fact (and therefore certainly ecuмenical).  If it lacks those three criteria, one might be allowed (or compelled) to doubt the legitimacy of calling a council ecuмenical.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: +Vigano Equates Vatican II with False Council of Pistoia
    « Reply #46 on: September 23, 2020, 02:37:21 PM »
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  • 4) And how do we know what an ecuмenical council is? Usually the presumption is just "if the Church says it is, it is". And then if the Church tells us it's ecuмenical, we can be sure its teachings are true. But with this universality argument, now the Church telling us it's ecuмenical isn't good enough, and we must judge for ourselves(with our fallible judgements) whether or not the council possesses universality. So we have no way of knowing for sure which councils are ecuмenical or not.

    There's an incredibly amusing irony in all of this. Both the R & R and Sede groups will rail against Feeneyites for "private judgment," when we have both of those groups weighing ecuмenical councils and popes against Tradition and prior Magisterial teachings to make their determinations that either such a council or a pope was not genuine because they taught or acted contrarily. 

    It was especially amusing to get Galatians 1:8-9 quoted back at me when I talked about the consensus of the Church regarding the meaning of the Vincentian canon. 

    I guess the old "do as I say, not as I do" in all its wonderful variations is part of our genetic makeup.  

    As they say, you can't make this stuff up. 
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: +Vigano Equates Vatican II with False Council of Pistoia
    « Reply #47 on: September 23, 2020, 02:40:33 PM »
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  • There's an incredibly amusing irony in all of this. Both the R & R and Sede groups will rail against Feeneyites for "private judgment," when we have both of those groups weighing ecuмenical councils and popes against Tradition and prior Magisterial teachings to make their determinations that either such a council or a pope was not genuine because they taught or acted contrarily.

    It was especially amusing to get Galatians 1:8-9 quoted back at me when I talked about the consensus of the Church regarding the meaning of the Vincentian canon.

    I guess the old "do as I say, not as I do" in all its wonderful variations is part of our genetic makeup.  

    As they say, you can't make this stuff up.

    Oh, you can (and have been) making it up just fine.

    So long as you remove all context and nuance, you can pretend there is irony to your heart's content!

    The only irony I perceive is sedes deposing popes without reference or deference to the Church's decision, while calling for declarations from the Church to declare the council false.

    As regards the Feeneyites, St. Vincent roundly condemns them: Popes, saints, and doctors of the Church have been teaching BOD since post-apostolic times.  Clearly BOD possesses universality and is de fide.

    Meanwhile, you would defend the authenticity of a council which is lacking in infallibility and universality (and is clearly therefore no dogmatic fact, yet persist in this defense even though we know ecuмenical councils must be dogmatic facts), and pretend to find no distinctions between Vatican I and Vatican II, so as to create irony.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: +Vigano Equates Vatican II with False Council of Pistoia
    « Reply #48 on: September 23, 2020, 03:10:16 PM »
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  • Sean, do you believe the NO teaching that the teachings of all the bishops, either together in a council or dispersed throughout the world, all teaching the same thing in unison with the pope are infallible teachings? If so, what does it matter what the Council is called?
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: +Vigano Equates Vatican II with False Council of Pistoia
    « Reply #49 on: September 23, 2020, 03:40:43 PM »
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  • Sean, do you believe the NO teaching that the teachings of all the bishops, either together in a council or dispersed throughout the world, all teaching the same thing in unison with the pope are infallible teachings? If so, what does it matter what the Council is called?

    All I know is that Vatican II taught error.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline forlorn

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    Re: +Vigano Equates Vatican II with False Council of Pistoia
    « Reply #50 on: September 23, 2020, 04:14:10 PM »
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  • Meanwhile, you would defend the authenticity of a council which is lacking in infallibility and universality (and is clearly therefore no dogmatic fact, yet persist in this defense even though we know ecuмenical councils must be dogmatic facts), and pretend to find no distinctions between Vatican I and Vatican II, so as to create irony.
    There were ecuмenical councils that didn't teach dogma, like the First Council of Lyons. And obviously Vatican I and Vatican II are very different, but do you not see the issue with how this universality argument makes it so that we never know if a council is ecuмenical for certain? If the Church can say V2 is an ecuмenical council, and it can be wrong in that because of a lack of universality, then who's to say other ecuмenical councils didn't lack the same? How can we ever know if a council is ecuмenical for certain if we must use our own private judgement to decide if their teachings are universal or not?

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: +Vigano Equates Vatican II with False Council of Pistoia
    « Reply #51 on: September 23, 2020, 06:17:33 PM »
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  • There were ecuмenical councils that didn't teach dogma, like the First Council of Lyons. And obviously Vatican I and Vatican II are very different, but do you not see the issue with how this universality argument makes it so that we never know if a council is ecuмenical for certain? If the Church can say V2 is an ecuмenical council, and it can be wrong in that because of a lack of universality, then who's to say other ecuмenical councils didn't lack the same? How can we ever know if a council is ecuмenical for certain if we must use our own private judgement to decide if their teachings are universal or not?

    I don’t see that at all.

    Why wouldn’t you know if novelty is taught, thereby robbing a council of universality (and therefore of legitimacy)?

    You yourself know novelty was taught at V2, and therefore you reject it.  So it seems you are creating an argument which you yourself don’t believe.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline forlorn

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    Re: +Vigano Equates Vatican II with False Council of Pistoia
    « Reply #52 on: September 23, 2020, 07:07:03 PM »
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  • I don’t see that at all.

    Why wouldn’t you know if novelty is taught, thereby robbing a council of universality (and therefore of legitimacy)?

    You yourself know novelty was taught at V2, and therefore you reject it.  So it seems you are creating an argument which you yourself don’t believe.
    But that's my private judgement. The whole point of having a magisterium is so we don't have to rely on our private judgement regarding matters of faith. If we don't know with infallible certainty which councils were ecuмenical, then we don't know any dogma with certainty, since all dogma were taught either by an ecuмenical council or (in the case of very few) by papal infallibly, which was itself defined in an ecuмenical council. Discard our certainty of which councils are ecuмenical, and what do we know for certain? 


    Offline Struthio

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    Re: +Vigano Equates Vatican II with False Council of Pistoia
    « Reply #53 on: September 23, 2020, 07:26:05 PM »
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  • But that's my private judgement.

    No, it isn't "private judgment" if one uses the rule of faith to judge. The rule of faith is what the Church taught before.

    The 1960s robber council is a robber council because it contradicts Church teaching.

    Lookup CI-posts of user drew with keywords proximate rule faith.
    Men are not bound, or able to read hearts; but when they see that someone is a heretic by his external works, they judge him to be a heretic pure and simple ... Jerome points this out. (St. Robert Bellarmine)

    Offline Struthio

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    Re: +Vigano Equates Vatican II with False Council of Pistoia
    « Reply #54 on: September 23, 2020, 08:07:35 PM »
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  • I have [...] appealed to the notion of the overall indefectibility of the Church.

    The indefectibility of the Magisterium was defined twice by the Vatican Council to last usque ad consummationem saeculi. Both of the main docuмents have it in the first paragraph, or first sentence:


    Quote from: Vatican Council, Pastor aeternus
    Pastor aeternus [...] ita in Ecclesia sua pastores et doctores usque ad consummationem saeculi [Mt 28,20] esse voluit.
    Quote from: Vatican Council, Dei Filius
    Dei Filius et generis humani Redemptor Dominus Noster Iesus Christus, ad Patrem caelestem rediturus, cuм Ecclesia sua in terris militante, omnibus diebus usque ad consummationem saeculi [Mt 28,20] futurum se esse promisit.

    When there are no more shepherds and doctors found in the Church of the eternal shepherd, then all days up to the consummation of the age are past. Then Antichrist is seducing most sheep, and all kinds of false prophets and sects call scattered sheep to the deserts or closets and say 'here is Christ'. Believe it not.  [Mt 24,26]

    Quote from: St. John of Damascus, De Fide Orthodoxa
    CHAPTER XXVI. Concerning the Antichrist.

    It should be known that the Antichrist is bound to come. Every one, therefore, who confesses not that the Son of God came in the flesh and is perfect God and became perfect man, after being God, is Antichrist. But in a peculiar and special sense he who comes at the consummation of the age is called Antichrist.
    Men are not bound, or able to read hearts; but when they see that someone is a heretic by his external works, they judge him to be a heretic pure and simple ... Jerome points this out. (St. Robert Bellarmine)

    Offline StLouisIX

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    Re: +Vigano Equates Vatican II with False Council of Pistoia
    « Reply #55 on: September 23, 2020, 10:07:48 PM »
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  • I believe Vigano is the first R&R theologian (and with this latest monumental letter, he is clearly a theologian) to suggest Vatican II is not an ecuмenical council.
    Fr. Hesse, who was a canon lawyer, also argued that Vatican II was not an ecuмenical council. One of his tapes was dedicated this subject, which you can listen to here: 

    https://archive.org/details/FatherHesse/Fr.+Hesse+-+Why+Catholics+May+Doubt+Whether+Vatican+II+Was+a+Valid+Council+(Remastered).mp3


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: +Vigano Equates Vatican II with False Council of Pistoia
    « Reply #56 on: September 24, 2020, 05:37:34 AM »
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  • All I know is that Vatican II taught error.
    And with absolute certainty of faith, you are right. V2 was the cause, the means of the greatest scandal in the history of the world, of this we are absolutely certain.

    Has not it always been known that all the bishops together in a council with the pope is called an ecuмenical council? And is it not undeniable that all the bishops together in a council with the pope taught - and continue to teach error?

    So I ask again, why does the name of the label they gave to the Council matter?

    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Re: +Vigano Equates Vatican II with False Council of Pistoia
    « Reply #57 on: September 24, 2020, 07:15:06 AM »
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  • No, it isn't "private judgment" if one uses the rule of faith to judge. The rule of faith is what the Church taught before.

    The 1960s robber council is a robber council because it contradicts Church teaching.

    Lookup CI-posts of user drew with keywords proximate rule faith.
    But drew believes that the proximate rule of faith is the set of dogmatic doctrines of the Church.  This is why he believes Bergoglio is the true pope and also why he believes he can justly resist the pope and use his own private judgment to overrule the pope’s decisions.
    The Church on the other hand teaches that obedience to the pope is necessary for salvation.  But it was always necessary to use our own private judgment to identify the pope and the true hierarchy of the Church. E.g. St Vincent Ferrar vs St Catherine of Siena during the Great Western Schism.
    So if you believe that it is the pope who is the proximate rule of faith, then in order to know what the Church teaches, you first have to identify who is the pope or in the case of an interregnum, who are the legitimate hierarchy of the Church.
    In the case of V2, no one disobeyed the supposed pope in 1965.  It wasn’t until at least 1967 that anyone questioned the legitimacy of the pope (Shuckhardt).  The traditional Catholic movement didn’t start until 1970 at the earliest after the new “Mass” had already been concocted.  So it wasn’t a problem with the texts of V2 (although the problems certainly were there) that sparked the traditional Catholic movement, it was the founding of a new religion with the Mass being the most obvious manifestation.
    It was only after the fact of the new religion that we traced the problem back to V2.  And for sedes, it was traced back to the elections of 1958 and 1963.
    If Vigano is going to have any success at uniting the clans he will have to address the new religion and its positively doubtful sacraments.  I wonder if he will have the courage to do that since his own legitimacy will come into question.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: +Vigano Equates Vatican II with False Council of Pistoia
    « Reply #58 on: September 24, 2020, 07:37:00 AM »
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  • But drew believes that the proximate rule of faith is the set of dogmatic doctrines of the Church.  This is why he believes Bergoglio is the true pope and also why he believes he can justly resist the pope and use his own private judgment to overrule the pope’s decisions.
    The Church on the other hand teaches that obedience to the pope is necessary for salvation.  But it was always necessary to use our own private judgment to identify the pope and the true hierarchy of the Church. E.g. St Vincent Ferrar vs St Catherine of Siena during the Great Western Schism.
    So if you believe that it is the pope who is the proximate rule of faith, then in order to know what the Church teaches, you first have to identify who is the pope or in the case of an interregnum, who are the legitimate hierarchy of the Church.
    In the case of V2, no one disobeyed the supposed pope in 1965.  It wasn’t until at least 1967 that anyone questioned the legitimacy of the pope (Shuckhardt).  The traditional Catholic movement didn’t start until 1970 at the earliest after the new “Mass” had already been concocted.  So it wasn’t a problem with the texts of V2 (although the problems certainly were there) that sparked the traditional Catholic movement, it was the founding of a new religion with the Mass being the most obvious manifestation.
    It was only after the fact of the new religion that we traced the problem back to V2.  And for sedes, it was traced back to the elections of 1958 and 1963.
    If Vigano is going to have any success at uniting the clans he will have to address the new religion and its positively doubtful sacraments.  I wonder if he will have the courage to do that since his own legitimacy will come into question.
    Drew is 100% right, dogma is the rule of faith, truth or doctrine will forever reign over authority since truth binds even authority - thankfully for trads because trads live by this principle.

    But the trad movement was talking roots in my neck of the woods at least, a few years prior to 1970 and I agree with you re: his own legitimacy would have to come into question.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: +Vigano Equates Vatican II with False Council of Pistoia
    « Reply #59 on: September 24, 2020, 08:07:03 AM »
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  • No, it isn't "private judgment" if one uses the rule of faith to judge. The rule of faith is what the Church taught before.

    Sure it is.  We have made the judgment, against what the putative authorities in the V2 Conciliar Church have said, that some or much of V2 contradicts Tradition.  It's theoretically possible that we're misinterpreting something or missing some distinction, or something.  Until such a time as the Church is restored and declares that V2 contradicted Tradition, we're operating in private judgment mode.  This thinking is similar to what the Dimonds do.  They claim that various propositions contradict Tradition and so declare them to be heretical.  As great as they believe their syllogisms are to establish this, the logic is their own and not that of the Church.  Every syllogism involves some human reasoning.  They (and we) typically start with a Major that is in fact from Church teaching, and then we like to pretend that the conclusion we draw from it is also therefore Church teaching.  But often the Minor is not necessarily Church teaching, and the entire argument is not, in that it's always possible that we're missing a distinction somewhere in the reasoning.

    What you stated here is simply an extension of the Protestant use of Scripture.  "Look, here's a statement in the Bible, therefore the Catholics are in error."  We say, "Look, here's a statement in Tradition, and therefore V2 is in error."  So, while we would recognize TWO sources of Revelation rather than ONE, the attitude here is Protestant.  It is for the Church's Magisterium alone to interpret (i.e. "safeguard") the Deposit of Revelation and right doctrine.