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Author Topic: +Vigano Equates Vatican II with False Council of Pistoia  (Read 7994 times)

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Offline DecemRationis

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Re: +Vigano Equates Vatican II with False Council of Pistoia
« Reply #15 on: September 23, 2020, 08:55:31 AM »
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  • Sean,


    Quote
    To be magisterial (ie., OUM), teachings must possess universality (spatial and temporal).

    Conciliar teachings lack this.

    The problem you have is that is not how the theologians, who were used by the Church in teaching the faith, have defined it. The "universality" only has to be spatial, not temporal, to command Magisterial authority as OUM - if I understand your terminology. The words the theologians have used is synchronic (the moral majority of the current bishops and the current pope) and diachronic (across time, always believed or taught, etc. ). The OUM, under the accepted pre-V2 teaching, is present when the then reigning pope and the bishops in union with him teach something - that is the guarantee of OUM, and one need not search or weigh it with prior teachings. That is the safety and indefectibility of the OUM. 

    Obviously, the post-V2 Church has stood that on its head. 

    So, again, we have flip-flop on a principle when it confronts fact. Now, forget the prior teaching, there must be both synchronic and diachronic "universality" for OUM. 

    This is a convenient explanation that fails to address or explain adequately the failings in the teaching regarding the OUM that previously was taught. 

    Until we deal with those failings and come up with a consistent and principled explanation for them, I don't see a way out of this mess. 
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: +Vigano Equates Vatican II with False Council of Pistoia
    « Reply #16 on: September 23, 2020, 08:58:43 AM »
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  • DR-


    The validity of a pope is known and certain merely by the fact that his rule enjoys UPA, but this is not the foundation for a valid/true ecuмenical council.
    But the validity of an ecuмenical council is its being called by a true pope and then having its teachings confirmed by a true pope, which V2 had according to you. Again, you're trying to redefine what an ecuмenical council is to explain away the problem. 
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: +Vigano Equates Vatican II with False Council of Pistoia
    « Reply #17 on: September 23, 2020, 09:02:06 AM »
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  • Sean,


    The problem you have is that is not how the theologians, who were used by the Church in teaching the faith, have defined it. The "universality" only has to be spatial, not temporal, to command Magisterial authority as OUM - if I understand your terminology. The words the theologians have used is synchronic (the moral majority of the current bishops and the current pope) and diachronic (across time, always believed or taught, etc. ). The OUM, under the accepted pre-V2 teaching, is present when the then reigning pope and the bishops in union with him teach something - that is the guarantee of OUM, and one need not search or weigh it with prior teachings. That is the safety and indefectibility of the OUM.

    Obviously, the post-V2 Church has stood that on its head.

    So, again, we have flip-flop on a principle when it confronts fact. Now, forget the prior teaching, there must be both synchronic and diachronic "universality" for OUM.

    This is a convenient explanation that fails to address or explain adequately the failings in the teaching regarding the OUM that previously was taught.

    Until we deal with those failings and come up with a consistent and principled explanation for them, I don't see a way out of this mess.

    I disagree, and believe theologians have used temporal universality as a necessary criterion to distinguish true from false teaching going all the way back at least to the 5th century (eg., St. Vincent of Lerrin’s famous Commonitorium):

    “Moreover, in the Catholic Church itself, all possible care must be taken, that we hold that faith which has been believed everywhere, always, by all. For that is truly and in the strictest sense Catholic, which, as the name itself and the reason of the thing declare, comprehends all universally. This rule we shall observe if we follow universality, antiquity, consent. We shall follow universality if we confess that one faith to be true, which the whole Church throughout the world confesses; antiquity, if we in no wise depart from those interpretations which it is manifest were notoriously held by our holy ancestors and fathers; consent, in like manner, if in antiquity itself we adhere to the consentient definitions and determinations of all, or at the least of almost all priests and doctors. (2.6)”
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline forlorn

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    Re: +Vigano Equates Vatican II with False Council of Pistoia
    « Reply #18 on: September 23, 2020, 09:28:35 AM »
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  • Here are Kwasniewski's thoughts, from the article +Viganò was referencing.

    Quote
    Ever since Archbishop Viganò’s June 9 letter and his subsequent writing on the subject, people have been discussing what it might mean to “annul” the Second Vatican Council.

    I see three theoretical possibilities for a future pope.

    1. He could publish a new Syllabus of Errors (as Bishop Schneider proposed all the way back in 2010) that identifies and condemns common errors associated with Vatican II while not attributing them explicitly to Vatican II: “If anyone says XYZ, let him be anathema.” This would leave open the degree to which the Council docuмents actually contain the errors; it would, however, close the door to many popular “readings” of the Council.

    2. He could declare that, in looking back over the past half-century, we can see that the Council docuмents, on account of their ambiguities and difficulties, have caused more harm than good in the life of the Church and should, in the future, no longer be referenced as authoritative in theological discussion. The Council should be treated as a historic event whose relevance has passed. Again, this stance would not need to assert that the docuмents are in error; it would be an acknowledgement that the Council has shown itself to be “more trouble than it’s worth.”

    3. He could specifically “disown” or set aside certain docuмents or parts of docuмents, even as parts of the Council of Constance were never recognized or were repudiated.

    Through some combination of these, and recognising the fact that V2 never declared dogma(and its errors were designed to be vague rather than explicit), it may be possible to effectively annul Vatican 2 by correcting its errors, condemning its false fruits, and simply overriding its constitutions. After reading back through it, I think there is a fair argument to be made that since Paul VI explicitly denied that the council taught anything with the "note of infallibility", the council's designation as "ecuмenical" is effectively meaningless. We take an ecuмenical council to be one that teaches infallibly, yet its own presiding pope denied that it did this, which opens the possibility that it could be erroneous without posing insurmountable problems for the integrity of the Magisterium.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: +Vigano Equates Vatican II with False Council of Pistoia
    « Reply #19 on: September 23, 2020, 09:39:25 AM »
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  • If it’s not an ecuмenical council, there’s no protection from error.

    I think that depends on your understand of the degree to which errors could creep into the Magisterium.  If it was not an Ecuмenical Council, then it's still some kind of authoritative universal teaching of the Pope and bishops to the Church, which most sedevacantists still hold is generally protected from grave substantial error.

    As I've argued before, the real problem isn't with regard to infallibility in the strict sense, but about the broader indefectibility of the Magisterium and the Church's Universal Discipline.

    I'm not understanding the logic of comparing this to Pistoia.  Pistoia was rejected by the Pope, while Vatican II has been accepted and actively promoted by a series of V2 papal claimants.  This sounds a bit like grasping at straws on the part of +Vigano.  Evidently, the problem of how an Ecuмenical Council could do this, to be intrinsically defective, erroneous, and harmful ... has been weighing on +Vigano's mind.  So he's come up with the proposal that the Ecuмenical Council wasn't really and Ecuмenical Council.  With this he's at least tacitly admitting the problem of how an Ecuмenical Council could do such a thing.  So, if this was not an Ecuмenical Council, why?  If this was not an Ecuмenical Council, then what was it?  Was "whatever it was" also exceeding the limits of the overall inerrancy of the Magisterium?

    So recall the syllogism I laid out when +Vigano first published his famous June 9th letter.

    Major:  Ecuмenical Councils cannot teach gravely erroneous doctrine.
    Minor:  Vatican II taught gravely erroneous doctrine.
    Conclusion:  Vatican II was not an Ecuмenical Council.

    So it actually sounds like he's admitting this logic now.  In his earlier position statement, he articulated the Minor but did not dwell on the Major at all.  Some people attacked him because of the Major.  So upon reflection, he's tacitly conceding this argument by feeling the need to say that Vatican II was not an Ecuмenical Council.

    Now the question is WHY was it not an Ecuмenical Council.  Of course, the sedevacantist answer is that it was never approved by a Pope ... since Paul VI was not a pope.  +Vigano just says that it was not an Ecuмenical Council but does not go to the next step of trying to explain exactly WHY.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: +Vigano Equates Vatican II with False Council of Pistoia
    « Reply #20 on: September 23, 2020, 09:40:52 AM »
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  • Here are Kwasniewski's thoughts, from the article +Viganò was referencing.

    Through some combination of these, and recognising the fact that V2 never declared dogma(and its errors were designed to be vague rather than explicit), it may be possible to effectively annul Vatican 2 by correcting its errors, condemning its false fruits, and simply overriding its constitutions. After reading back through it, I think there is a fair argument to be made that since Paul VI explicitly denied that the council taught anything with the "note of infallibility", the council's designation as "ecuмenical" is effectively meaningless. We take an ecuмenical council to be one that teaches infallibly, yet its own presiding pope denied that it did this, which opens the possibility that it could be erroneous without posing insurmountable problems for the integrity of the Magisterium.

    I don't know that defining something infallibly is inherent in the definition of an Ecuмenical Council ... not in any of the theological definitions I've seen.  I think it's typically assumed that ECs do that, but I've never seen this articulated as an essential part of the definition.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: +Vigano Equates Vatican II with False Council of Pistoia
    « Reply #21 on: September 23, 2020, 09:52:49 AM »
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  • I don't know that defining something infallibly is inherent in the definition of an Ecuмenical Council ... not in any of the theological definitions I've seen.  I think it's typically assumed that ECs do that, but I've never seen this articulated as an essential part of the definition.
    But if it lacks universality, it is not magisterial at all (ie., such acts would all be at the level of authentic magisterium, which designation is actually a misnomer, because
    There is no such thing as a fallible ordinary magisterium).
    Such acts would be on par with the writings of a private doctor.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline forlorn

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    Re: +Vigano Equates Vatican II with False Council of Pistoia
    « Reply #22 on: September 23, 2020, 09:56:13 AM »
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  • I don't know that defining something infallibly is inherent in the definition of an Ecuмenical Council ... not in any of the theological definitions I've seen.  I think it's typically assumed that ECs do that, but I've never seen this articulated as an essential part of the definition.
    You're right, it's not, and there were a few throughout history that didn't. But I think there's an argument to be made that the dogmatic constitutions weren't infallible, because Paul VI said as much, but that the title of "Ecuмenical Council" was used by the modernists to make people think they were. When we look at Pastor Aeternius, each paragraph is a new dogmatic teaching, so we might be lead into thinking Lumen Gentium was the same.

    The question still remains, how could the whole body of the Church teach error? I don't know. It could be that the complete lack of clarity,  and repeated rejections of infallibility, in literally any docuмent during and after Vatican 2 was the protection of the Holy Ghost preventing the Church from explicitly teaching error.


    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: +Vigano Equates Vatican II with False Council of Pistoia
    « Reply #23 on: September 23, 2020, 09:58:04 AM »
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  • Now the question is WHY was it not an Ecuмenical Council.  Of course, the sedevacantist answer is that it was never approved by a Pope ... since Paul VI was not a pope.  +Vigano just says that it was not an Ecuмenical Council but does not go to the next step of trying to explain exactly WHY.
    If you redefine "Ecuмenical Council" and Vatican 2 doesn't fit the definition, you've explained why it's not. This is what he is doing. He is effectively saying that a council that is heterogenous with Tradition isn't a council. As I said, it's too convenient. One could simply remove an "obex" by changing the implicated terminology; this is what he is doing: an ecuмenical council is a universal council open to all the bishops of the Church which has been called by the pope and whose teachings are confirmed by the pope, as long as those teachings are not heterogenous with prior teachings of the Magisterium. That clause is his "why": V2 is heterogenous.  

    It's a linguistic voila . . . and the problem is gone.  
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: +Vigano Equates Vatican II with False Council of Pistoia
    « Reply #24 on: September 23, 2020, 10:00:21 AM »
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  • But if it lacks universality, it is not magisterial at all (ie., such acts would all be at the level of authentic magisterium, which designation is actually a misnomer).
    There is no such thing as a fallible ordinary magisterium.
    Such acts would be on par with the writings of a private doctor.

    I don't believe that it's at all possible to compare them to the "writings of a private doctor".  It was taught by Paul VI (et al.) in their official capacity.  I believe Wojtyla wrote some book at some point while he was occupying the See of Peter, but that book was not an official act of his office.  Typically what distinguishes an official teaching from some private teaching (i.e. a Sunday sermon or something or a book like this) is whether it appears in the Acta Apostolicae Sedis.  There's a Church law/regulation which stated that those things and only those things in the AAS are considered part of the "authentic Magisterium."

    So the typical argument from R&R is that the acts of Vatican II are what's known as the MERELY authentic Magisterium, with authentic meaning authoritative, i.e. in opposition to the acts of a private doctor.

    This sounds like the Stubborn argument, that if it's erroneous then it's not Magisterium.  But that's a tautology only one step removed from "if it's true, then it's true; if it's not true, then it's false."  If the Pope INTENDS to teach the Church in his "official capacity" as Pope, vs. as Giovanni Montini (like writing a book), then it's known as "authentic" Magisterium.

    I don't believe that the case can be made that V2 is not Magisterium in any sense.

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: +Vigano Equates Vatican II with False Council of Pistoia
    « Reply #25 on: September 23, 2020, 10:01:56 AM »
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  • You're right, it's not, and there were a few throughout history that didn't. But I think there's an argument to be made that the dogmatic constitutions weren't infallible, because Paul VI said as much, but that the title of "Ecuмenical Council" was used by the modernists to make people think they were. When we look at Pastor Aeternius, each paragraph is a new dogmatic teaching, so we might be lead into thinking Lumen Gentium was the same.

    The question still remains, how could the whole body of the Church teach error? I don't know. It could be that the complete lack of clarity,  and repeated rejections of infallibility, in literally any docuмent during and after Vatican 2 was the protection of the Holy Ghost preventing the Church from explicitly teaching error.
    Except, for Vigano, he already said the teaching of DH on religious liberty was erroneous, and actually contradicted the teachings of the Magisterium and Tradition.

    You can't get the Magisterium off the hook by saying it taught error, but the error wasn't explicit. The tradition says it can't teach error through this organ, period. It's indefectible in that regard.
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: +Vigano Equates Vatican II with False Council of Pistoia
    « Reply #26 on: September 23, 2020, 10:04:15 AM »
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  • If you redefine "Ecuмenical Council" and Vatican 2 doesn't fit the definition, you've explained why it's not. This is what he is doing. He is effectively saying that a council that is heterogenous with Tradition isn't a council. As I said, it's too convenient. One could simply remove an "obex" by changing the implicated terminology; this is what he is doing: an ecuмenical council is a universal council open to all the bishops of the Church which has been called by the pope and whose teachings are confirmed by the pope, as long as those teachings are not heterogenous with prior teachings of the Magisterium. That clause is his "why": V2 is heterogenous.  

    It's a linguistic voila . . . and the problem is gone.  

    Is that his argument?  There's a huge problem with this.  Magisterium is known a priori to any examination of its contents.  If I can reject teachings of the Magisterium based on my private judgment that it's incompatible with Tradition, then there's no such thing as a priori authoritative Magisterium.  It makes private judgment the ultimate rule of faith.  This is not acceptable.

    As I said, he's grasping at straws.  But it's a step in the right direction.  He started by simply pointing out that V2 is filled with erroneous doctrine (not just ambiguous).  Now he's got to come to terms with HOW it's possible for V2 to have done this.  At least the question is stirring in his mind.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: +Vigano Equates Vatican II with False Council of Pistoia
    « Reply #27 on: September 23, 2020, 10:05:13 AM »
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  • I disagree, and believe theologians have used temporal universality as a necessary criterion to distinguish true from false teaching going all the way back at least to the 5th century (eg., St. Vincent of Lerrin’s famous Commonitorium):

    Yes, the time criterion seems a bit uncertain to me.  If you say that the "universality in time" argument is essential, this leads to problems.

    It implies that at any given time the Magisterium could go off the rails and cease to be a reliable guide to truth and can even actively lead people into error ... which seems to contradict the indefectibility of the Magisterium.

    Also, there are some striking counter-examples.  So, for instance, since St. Augustine through about the year 1100, all Catholic theologians held that unbaptized infants went to hell, and that was later corrected by the Magisterium.  Also, for the first 1600 years, all Catholics believed and taught that those without explicit faith in the Holy Trinity and Incarnation cannot be saved.  But then some Jesuits started to innovate, and it's not been officially condemned by the Church.

    Articles dealing with the OUM admit that it can be nebulous in terms of what belongs to the OUM and what does not, and that ultimately for Catholics to know for sure that something is dogma of the OUM, the Church would have to define it ... at least to make it clear.

    So, Sean, my issue with R&R is that I simply cannot see how a major going off the rails of the Magisterium for 60+ years could in any way be consistent with the promises of Our Lord to preserve the Magisterium as a reliable source of the Catholic faith.

    If telling people that they MUST REJECT the Magisterium (or large parts of it) in order to please God and to save their souls, then, if that isn't a defection of the Magisterium, then I have NO IDEA what would be.

    That's really the big dispute between R&R and sedevacantists.  R&R hold that a vacancy of 60+ years is incompatible with indefectibility, whereas the sedevacantists hold that a corruption of the Magisterium and Universal Discipline of the Church is a much bigger problem with indefectibility.

    Here's from the Catholic Encyclopedia:
    Quote
    Among the prerogatives conferred on His Church by Christ is the gift of indefectibility. By this term is signified, not merely that the Church will persist to the end of time, but further, that it will preserve unimpaired its essential characteristics. The Church can never undergo any constitutional change which will make it, as a social organism, something different from what it was originally. It can never become corrupt in faith or in morals;

    Is the Conciliar Church not "corrupt in faith or in morals".  It's corrupt in both.  It's corrupt in its public form of worshipping God.

    So the R&R are focused on the "persist to the end of time" while sedevacantism considers this large-scale corruption of the Church to be a bigger problem, feeling that a long-term vacancy of the See is compatible with that persistence of the Church to the end of time.

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: +Vigano Equates Vatican II with False Council of Pistoia
    « Reply #28 on: September 23, 2020, 10:08:20 AM »
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  • Is that his argument?  There's a huge problem with this.  Magisterium is known a priori to any examination of its contents.  If I can reject teachings of the Magisterium based on my private judgment that it's incompatible with Tradition, then there's no such thing as a priori authoritative Magisterium.  It makes private judgment the ultimate rule of faith.  This is not acceptable.



    Exactly so.

    Quote
    As I said, he's grasping at straws.  But it's a step in the right direction.  He started by simply pointing out that V2 is filled with erroneous doctrine (not just ambiguous).  Now he's got to come to terms with HOW it's possible for V2 to have done this.  At least the question is stirring in his mind.

    Yes. He's made many a positive move that others haven't. Kudos to him for that.

    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: +Vigano Equates Vatican II with False Council of Pistoia
    « Reply #29 on: September 23, 2020, 10:22:21 AM »
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  •  haven't we been taught that the Holy Ghost would protect a pope and an ecuмenical council ratified and approved by him so that they could not "impose on them [us] an adulteration of the Faith"?
    Can you post this teaching? 



    Quote
    This is not much different that your cursed Sedevacantism, except, instead of calling the pop a non-pope, you call an ecuмenical council a non-ecuмenical council.
    Sums it right up.


    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse