Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: +Vigano can Prove Sede Vacante?  (Read 12000 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Meg

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6791
  • Reputation: +3468/-2999
  • Gender: Female
Re: +Vigano can Prove Sede Vacante?
« Reply #135 on: August 24, 2023, 01:43:11 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • That Jorge Bergoglio is a public manifest formal heretic is post factum evidence that he was not canonically elected because a true pope cannot be a formal heretic.  That a true pope cannot be a formal heretic is the First Opinion of the Five Opinions expounded upon by St. Robert Bellarmine.  It was the opinion he held and the common opinion of theologians during the first half of the 20th century.  Unfortunately, many, if not most, within the so-called Resistance have been negatively influenced by the likes of Robert Siscoe and John Salza to adopt the Fourth Opinion, that is, that a true pope can be a public heretic and yet retain his office until judged by the Church.  Furthermore, they erroneously use Archbishop Lefebvre to defend this position in regards to Jorge Bergoglio.

    Archbshop Lefebvre didn't think the status of the Pope was a big deal. Unlike some who obsess on it, as if it were a matter of dogma.

    Archbishop Lefebvre was defending the Catholic faith long before Sisco and Salza were around, and probably before you yourself ever thought about traditional Catholicism. He was defending the Faith long before I ever thought about traditional Catholicism, that's for sure. And yet you and the other sedevacantists and benevacantists hold that +Lefebvre was very wrong. A few of us here aren't buying it.
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Catholic Knight

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 804
    • Reputation: +238/-82
    • Gender: Male
    Re: +Vigano can Prove Sede Vacante?
    « Reply #136 on: August 24, 2023, 02:12:29 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Archbshop Lefebvre didn't think the status of the Pope was a big deal. Unlike some who obsess on it, as if it were a matter of dogma.

    Archbishop Lefebvre was defending the Catholic faith long before Sisco and Salza were around, and probably before you yourself ever thought about traditional Catholicism. He was defending the Faith long before I ever thought about traditional Catholicism, that's for sure. And yet you and the other sedevacantists and benevacantists hold that +Lefebvre was very wrong. A few of us here aren't buying it.

    Did I write that Archbishop Lefebvre held the Fourth Opinion as you seem to imply above?


    Offline Meg

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 6791
    • Reputation: +3468/-2999
    • Gender: Female
    Re: +Vigano can Prove Sede Vacante?
    « Reply #137 on: August 24, 2023, 02:17:36 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Did I write that Archbishop Lefebvre held the Fourth Opinion as you seem to imply above?

    No, you didn't. I hadn't meant to infer that you did. Apologies.

    I don't believe that the Archbishop ever discussed the 'opinions' that you are discussing. He didn't view the situation in the same way, as far as I know.  He had more important things to think about.
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Catholic Knight

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 804
    • Reputation: +238/-82
    • Gender: Male
    Re: +Vigano can Prove Sede Vacante?
    « Reply #138 on: August 24, 2023, 02:21:24 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • No, you didn't. I hadn't meant to infer that you did. Apologies.

    I don't believe that the Archbishop ever discussed the 'opinions' that you are discussing. He didn't view the situation in the same way, as far as I know.  He had more important things to think about.

    Then why did you write, "And yet you and the other sedevacantists and benevacantists hold that +Lefebvre was very wrong."

    Offline Meg

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 6791
    • Reputation: +3468/-2999
    • Gender: Female
    Re: +Vigano can Prove Sede Vacante?
    « Reply #139 on: August 24, 2023, 02:24:54 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Then why did you write, "And yet you and the other sedevacantists and benevacantists hold that +Lefebvre was very wrong."

    Don't you believe that a public formal heretic cannot be a pope? Or do I have that wrong?

    What about JP2? Wasn't he a public formal heretic, in your view? Or is it just Pope Francis that's a public formal heretic?
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29


    Offline Catholic Knight

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 804
    • Reputation: +238/-82
    • Gender: Male
    Re: +Vigano can Prove Sede Vacante?
    « Reply #140 on: August 24, 2023, 02:31:04 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Don't you believe that a public formal heretic cannot be a pope? Or do I have that wrong?

    What about JP2? Wasn't he a public formal heretic, in your view? Or is it just Pope Francis that's a public formal heretic?

    I believe John Paul II was a true pope.

    Offline Angelus

    • Supporter
    • ***
    • Posts: 1255
    • Reputation: +566/-105
    • Gender: Male
    Re: +Vigano can Prove Sede Vacante?
    « Reply #141 on: August 24, 2023, 02:32:55 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • If Francis is a not a pope and not even a Catholic, then why would it matter what his policies are? He's just a private person with some grandiose ideas, right?

    Read up on "the operation of error" (2 Thessalonians 2:10).

    When one knowingly consents to a lie (e.g. by acting as if an Antipope is the actual Pope), the "operation of error" will be the punishment for that person. The punishment fits the offense. The person does not respect "the truth" and, so, their intellect will be darkened such that they won't be able to distinguish truth from lie.

    St. Paul says that those who "receive the love of the truth" will "be saved." Those who don't "receive the love of the truth" will "be judged" because they, in God's eyes, "consented to iniquity" (2 Thessalonians 2:11).


    Offline Pax Vobis

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 12610
    • Reputation: +8031/-2491
    • Gender: Male
    Re: +Vigano can Prove Sede Vacante?
    « Reply #142 on: August 24, 2023, 02:35:37 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0

  • Quote
    I believe John Paul II was a true pope.
    :confused:  He probably wasn't even a valid bishop.  He promoted all kinds of heresies, namely ecuмenism.  He worshiped openly with non-catholics of every sect (many of whom were near-naked).  And he wasn't a heretic?  :laugh2:


    Offline Meg

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 6791
    • Reputation: +3468/-2999
    • Gender: Female
    Re: +Vigano can Prove Sede Vacante?
    « Reply #143 on: August 24, 2023, 03:24:57 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • :confused:  He probably wasn't even a valid bishop.  He promoted all kinds of heresies, namely ecuмenism.  He worshiped openly with non-catholics of every sect (many of whom were near-naked).  And he wasn't a heretic?  :laugh2:

    Yes, he was fine with worshiping with non-Catholics. There was even a procession after the debacle at Assisi, where the Catholic clergy processed alongside the members of the various false religions, from the cathedral. And remember the scandal of the pagan skull-ticklers, who were also invited to Assisi, who proceeded to sacrifice a chicken at the altar of St. Clare (though they didn't have permission). How is that even possible? The false-ecuмenism of JP2 allowed it. It's easy to forget the scandals that happened back then; Francis is hardly the first Modernist Pope to cause great scandal.

    Here's +ABL's and +de Castro Mayer's joint declaration of 1986, just as a reminder, to show the horrors of the Assisi scandal. It's good that the SSPX still has this on their website:

    1986 joint-declaration against Assisi - District of the USA (sspx.org)


    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Angelus

    • Supporter
    • ***
    • Posts: 1255
    • Reputation: +566/-105
    • Gender: Male
    Re: +Vigano can Prove Sede Vacante?
    « Reply #144 on: August 24, 2023, 03:55:30 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Yes, he was fine with worshiping with non-Catholics. There was even a procession after the debacle at Assisi, where the Catholic clergy processed alongside the members of the various false religions, from the cathedral. And remember the scandal of the pagan skull-ticklers, who were also invited to Assisi, who proceeded to sacrifice a chicken at the altar of St. Clare (though they didn't have permission). How is that even possible? The false-ecuмenism of JP2 allowed it. It's easy to forget the scandals that happened back then; Francis is hardly the first Modernist to cause great scandal.

    Here's +ABL's and +de Castro Mayer's joint declaration, just as a reminder, written by he and +De Castro Mayer, to show the horrors of the Assisi scandal. It's good that the SSPX still has this on their website:

    1986 joint-declaration against Assisi - District of the USA (sspx.org)


    Meg, "worshiping with non-Catholics" is called communicatio in sacris. It can be a sin, even a mortal sin in some cases. Such sins can be dispensed by a bishop if there is a good reason for the "communicatio." Presumably, the Pope would have provided himself a "dispensation" in this case, no?

    Regardless, "Communicatio in sacris" is not the same thing as "apostasy, heresy or schism." A Pope who participates in a imprudent (even sinful) prayer meeting has not "defected from the Church." He has, at worst, committed a dispensable sin.

    This was written in the 1920s with Imprimatur (https://www.gutenberg.org/files/35354/35354-h/35354-h.html):

    Quote
    884. Religious communication is sinful on account of danger in the following cases:

    (a) If it is a proximate and voluntary occasion of sin against faith. Examples: Sempronius goes to a non-Catholic church to hear a minister who attacks the divinity of Christ and other articles of the Creed. The purpose of Sempronius is to benefit himself as a public speaker, but he knows that his faith suffers, because he admires the orator. Balbus chooses to listen over the radio to attacks on religion and Christianity, which cause serious temptations to him.
    (b) If it is a necessary occasion of sin and one does not employ sufficient precautions against it, religious communication becomes sinful. Example: Titus, a prisoner, has to listen at times to a jail chaplain, who teaches that there are errors in the Bible, that man evolved from the ape, etc. Titus feels himself drawn sympathetically to these teachings, but makes no effort to strengthen his faith.
    885. Communication with unbelievers that is a remote occasion of sin, is not sinful, for “otherwise one must needs go out of this world” (I Cor., v. 9). On the contrary, reasons of justice or charity frequently make it necessary and commendable to have friendly dealings with those of other or no religious conviction. (a) Reasons of justice. It is necessary to cooperate with non-Catholic fellow-citizens in what pertains to the welfare of our common country, state, city, and neighborhood; to be just and fair in business relations with those outside the Church, etc. (b) Reasons of charity. Catholics should be courteous and kind to all (Heb., xii. 14), and be willing to assist, temporarily and spiritually, those outside the Church. Thus, St. Paul, without sacrificing principle or doctrine, made himself all things to all men, in order to gain all (I Cor., ix. 19). Indeed, the mission of the Church would suffer, if Catholics today kept aloof from all that goes on about them. The Church must teach, by example as well as precept, must be a salt, a light, a leaven, an example of the Gospel in practice; and surely this ministry will be weakened if her children aim at complete isolation and exclusivism.


    Offline Meg

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 6791
    • Reputation: +3468/-2999
    • Gender: Female
    Re: +Vigano can Prove Sede Vacante?
    « Reply #145 on: August 24, 2023, 04:00:49 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Meg, "worshiping with non-Catholics" is called communicatio in sacris. It can be a sin, even a mortal sin in some cases. Such sins can be dispensed by a bishop if there is a good reason for the "communicatio." Presumably, the Pope would have provided himself a "dispensation" in this case, no?

    Regardless, "Communicatio in sacris" is not the same thing as "apostasy, heresy or schism." A Pope who participates in a imprudent (even sinful) prayer meeting has not "defected from the Church." He has, at worst, committed a dispensable sin.

    This was written in the 1920s with Imprimatur (https://www.gutenberg.org/files/35354/35354-h/35354-h.html):

    Well, since you believe that there was a dispensation given in the case of Assisi, then you don't have a problem with it. No big deal.

    But many Catholics, especially Traditional Catholics believed it to be a great scandal. Did you read the link I posted, regarding +ABL and +de Castro Mayer's complaint about Assisi?
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29


    Offline Angelus

    • Supporter
    • ***
    • Posts: 1255
    • Reputation: +566/-105
    • Gender: Male
    Re: +Vigano can Prove Sede Vacante?
    « Reply #146 on: August 24, 2023, 04:21:22 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Well, since you believe that there was a dispensation given in the case of Assisi, then you don't have a problem with it. No big deal.

    But many Catholics, especially Traditional Catholics believed it to be a great scandal. Did you read the link I posted, regarding +ABL and +de Castro Mayer's complaint about Assisi?

    Meg, are you "judging" the Pope? Are you saying that he, the Pope, can't dispense in that case? Are you "judging" that he committed "horrors" at Assisi? Horrors is a pretty strong word.

    That seems like it might contradict what St. Robert Bellarmine says in your signature:


    Quote
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29



    Offline Meg

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 6791
    • Reputation: +3468/-2999
    • Gender: Female
    Re: +Vigano can Prove Sede Vacante?
    « Reply #147 on: August 24, 2023, 04:22:02 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Meg, are you "judging" the Pope? Are you saying that he, the Pope, can't dispense in that case? Are you "judging" that he committed "horrors" at Assisi? Horrors is a pretty strong word.

    That seems like it might contradict what St. Robert Bellarmine says in your signature:

    So you are fine with the Assisi prayer meetings? 
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Angelus

    • Supporter
    • ***
    • Posts: 1255
    • Reputation: +566/-105
    • Gender: Male
    Re: +Vigano can Prove Sede Vacante?
    « Reply #148 on: August 24, 2023, 04:25:47 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • So you are fine with the Assisi prayer meetings?

    Why do you respond to my question with a question, Meg? Why don't you answer me. When you say that JPII committed "horrors" at Assisi, are you "judging" his actions?

    Offline Meg

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 6791
    • Reputation: +3468/-2999
    • Gender: Female
    Re: +Vigano can Prove Sede Vacante?
    « Reply #149 on: August 24, 2023, 04:29:36 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Why do you respond to my question with a question, Meg? Why don't you answer me. When you say that JPII committed "horrors" at Assisi, are you "judging" his actions?

    You already know what I think of Assisi. I want to know what you think. Given what you've already posted, I have to assume that you are fine with what happened at Assisi.

    Do you support Vatican ll's docuмent on Religious Liberty? It would seem that you do. I can't figure out then, why you would have a problem with Francis, since he and JP2 aren't all that different.


    Dignitatis humanae (vatican.va)
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29