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Author Topic: +Vigano can Prove Sede Vacante?  (Read 11809 times)

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Offline Angelus

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Re: +Vigano can Prove Sede Vacante?
« Reply #105 on: August 18, 2023, 01:07:59 PM »
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  • :facepalm:  Angelus, just stop.  You have to read legal docuмents in full context of ALL sections, amendments, and provisions. 

    Provide a logical argument based on evidence to make your point, Pax. Otherwise, you are not contributing anything worthwhile.

    Since you seem to imply that you have read Universi Dominici Gregis "in full context of ALL sections, amendments, and provisions," show me using evidence and a syllogism something that clearly contradicts what I have stated.

    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: +Vigano can Prove Sede Vacante?
    « Reply #106 on: August 18, 2023, 02:20:30 PM »
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  • No, it's rooted in the same kind of sophistry that Angelus' argument is.  It's clear that Ratzinger intended to resign.

    Please do your homework and read the Declaratio closely.  Joseph Ratzinger indicated what he was renouncing, and it was not his office (munus).  He renounced the active ministry, which follows from the munus.  He clearly showed his intent to retain some aspect of the papacy.  That was sufficient to retain the whole thing.  Even if he hypothetically claimed to renounce 99% of the munus and to retain 1% of it, he would remain pope.



    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: +Vigano can Prove Sede Vacante?
    « Reply #107 on: August 18, 2023, 02:56:26 PM »
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  • Please do your homework and read the Declaratio closely.  Joseph Ratzinger indicated what he was renouncing, and it was not his office (munus).  He renounced the active ministry, which follows from the munus.  He clearly showed his intent to retain some aspect of the papacy.  That was sufficient to retain the whole thing.  Even if he hypothetically claimed to renounce 99% of the munus and to retain 1% of it, he would remain pope.

    I've read it multiple times, including in Latin, and commented on why that's nonsense.  Canon Law doesn't require any specific term for renunciation of the munus.  It uses the term munus but then states that the Pope needs to make it sufficiently clear that he intends to resign.  There need be no formal docuмent.  He could walk out the door and say, "Seeya.  I've had enough of this pope business.  And then head out somewhere."  That would suffice.  In fact, most theologians hold that there could even be situations of "tacit resignation" if the pope acts as if he doesn't intend to function as pope, such as, for instance, a priest were elected to the papacy but then didn't bother to get consecrated a bishop.  Nor is there any indication anywhere that ministerium does not adequately describe the papal office and isn't synonymous for it.  This is based solely on the fact that Canon Law uses the term munus; it could just as easily have chosen ministerium.  There's no significant or relevant difference between the two terms that has ever been demonstrated.  Ratzinger made it abundantly clear in the docuмent with his long-winded circuмlocution where he stated, that as a consequence of his action, the See would be empty and conclave would be needed to elect a successor.  He couldn't have made it more clear.  And then in ceasing to function as pope, he confirmed the resignation.  Finally, it matters absolutely nothing, as it doesn't even address 1% of the problem of Vatican II.  You folks are acting on an emotional aversion to Bergoglio, but Wojtyla and Ratzinger were as much heretics as Jorge was, and they were MORE dangerous precisely because they played the part of being conservative / Traditional, to sucker people back into the Conciliar Church.  You Bennyvacantist types are playing into the notion that Ratzinger was some great paragon of Traditionalism, playing into the Hegelian dialect where the perception of "Traditionalism" shifts (by contrast with the Bergoglian extreme) far to the left of where it should be.  Listening to some Bennyvcantists talk, you'd think that Ratzinger was "Pope St. Pius X the New" (to paraphrase Moran, "Josaphat the New").  Cardinal Kasper, the friendly ecuмenist, who rejected the "ecuмenism of return" (i.e. the notion that non-Catholics had to convert), whose language was also cited by Ratzinger when "Pope", who knew both Ratzinger and Jorge very well, stated publicly that there's no difference between the theology of the two men, just in the manner in which they tried to present it.  So you guys need to wake up already and snap out of this nonsense.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: +Vigano can Prove Sede Vacante?
    « Reply #108 on: August 18, 2023, 03:05:41 PM »
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  • Provide a logical argument based on evidence to make your point, Pax. Otherwise, you are not contributing anything worthwhile.

    Since you seem to imply that you have read Universi Dominici Gregis "in full context of ALL sections, amendments, and provisions," show me using evidence and a syllogism something that clearly contradicts what I have stated.

    You're just embarrassing yourself, man, and discrediting anything else you have to say with this stuff.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: +Vigano can Prove Sede Vacante?
    « Reply #109 on: August 18, 2023, 03:11:00 PM »
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  • Again, your disagreement seems to be with the promulgator of Universi Dominici Gregis, not me. Here it is again.


    STEP 1

    CHAPTER III - THE BEGINNING OF THE ELECTION

    49. When the funeral rites for the deceased Pope ...

    I've already gone through the Latin of the docuмent.  Have you?  There's no article in Latin, so the translation is just as easily, "When the funeral rites for a deceased Pope ..."

    In other words, if the Pope is deceased, the funeral rites should be completed before the conclave begins.

    It's really not that hard.

    You blabber about reading the full context, but then ignore the early part of the docuмent where Wojtyla clear states the see can be vacated either by the death or the resignation of a Pontiff.  Within that actual context, this clearly means that in the event that the See is vacant due to the death of the pope, the funeral rites should be completed before the conclave begins.  Otherwise, his statement that the See can be vacated by resignation would be entirely moot.  Among other things, you completely defy all common sense by clinging to what you perceive to be some technicality, but which you completely distort.  But, to some it up, the statement above should be translated, "When the funeral rites for A deceased Pope have been completed ..." i.e., IF there's a deceased pope.

    You've demanded arguments.  I've made them.  But you simply ignore them and spam in the text of UDG again.


    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: +Vigano can Prove Sede Vacante?
    « Reply #110 on: August 18, 2023, 03:15:54 PM »
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  • If you want to be Bennyvacantists, why don't you just stick to the St. Gallen mafia problem ... certainly the most damning piece of evidence that would invalidate the election of Jorge Bergoglio, as Danneels pretty much admitted it in public.

    Offline Angelus

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    Re: +Vigano can Prove Sede Vacante?
    « Reply #111 on: August 18, 2023, 03:16:21 PM »
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  • Please do your homework and read the Declaratio closely.  Joseph Ratzinger indicated what he was renouncing, and it was not his office (munus).  He renounced the active ministry, which follows from the munus.  He clearly showed his intent to retain some aspect of the papacy.  That was sufficient to retain the whole thing.  Even if he hypothetically claimed to renounce 99% of the munus and to retain 1% of it, he would remain pope.

    CK, I believe, as you do, that the Declaratio was an invalid form of a canon 332 §2 "resignation." Benedict could have invoked canon 332 in that docuмent, but he didn't. Clearly he was doing something different.

    But having said that, it doesn't even matter if Benedict would have "resigned" in a perfectly valid manner or not. A mere act of "resignation" does not, by itself, trigger a new papal election, according to Universi Dominici Gregis. As UDG says over and over, only the death of the Pope will trigger a new papal election.
     
    If you disagree with me, please show me how my interpretation of UDG is incorrect.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: +Vigano can Prove Sede Vacante?
    « Reply #112 on: August 18, 2023, 03:18:40 PM »
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  • If you disagree with me, please show me how my interpretation of UDG is incorrect.

    ... already demonstrated above, and repeatedly before then.


    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: +Vigano can Prove Sede Vacante?
    « Reply #113 on: August 18, 2023, 03:25:10 PM »
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  • CK, I believe, as you do, that the Declaratio was an invalid form of a canon 332 §2 "resignation." Benedict could have invoked canon 332 in that docuмent, but he didn't. Clearly he was doing something different.

    You're not even bright enough to realize that this renders your argument completely moot.  If Ratzinger didn't resign, then your discussion of resignation requiring a funeral doesn't even factor in here.

    Offline Angelus

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    Re: +Vigano can Prove Sede Vacante?
    « Reply #114 on: August 18, 2023, 03:38:07 PM »
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  • I've already gone through the Latin of the docuмent.  Have you?  There's no article in Latin, so the translation is just as easily, "When the funeral rites for a deceased Pope ..."

    In other words, if the Pope is deceased, the funeral rites should be completed before the conclave begins.

    It's really not that hard.

    You blabber about reading the full context, but then ignore the early part of the docuмent where Wojtyla clear states the see can be vacated either by the death or the resignation of a Pontiff.  Within that actual context, this clearly means that in the event that the See is vacant due to the death of the pope, the funeral rites should be completed before the conclave begins.  Otherwise, his statement that the See can be vacated by resignation would be entirely moot.  Among other things, you completely defy all common sense by clinging to what you perceive to be some technicality, but which you completely distort.  But, to some it up, the statement above should be translated, "When the funeral rites for A deceased Pope have been completed ..." i.e., IF there's a deceased pope.

    You've demanded arguments.  I've made them.  But you simply ignore them and spam in the text of UDG again.

    You haven't made a clear argument. Address my exact two syllogisms above. Tell me where the problem is exactly in that argument.

    1. Your "funeral rites" point (which I do not concede) is irrelevant to my major premise in Step 1.

    2. Your point that "the see can be vacated either by the death or the resignation of a Pontiff" is not relevant. The Apostolic See becomes "lawfully vacant" only upon the death of the Pope (Pastor Bonus Article 6; UDG 14). This is because, as I have already shown, there are other officials that make up the Apostolic See according to Canon Law:

    Can. 360 The Supreme Pontiff usually conducts the affairs of the universal Church through the Roman Curia which performs its function in his name and by his authority for the good and service of the churches. The Roman Curia consists of the Secretariat of State or the Papal Secretariat, the Council for the Public Affairs of the Church, congregations, tribunals, and other institutes; the constitution and competence of all these are defined in special law.
    Can. 361 In this Code, the term Apostolic See or Holy See refers not only to the Roman Pontiff but also to the Secretariat of State, the Council for the Public Affairs of the Church, and other institutes of the Roman Curia, unless it is otherwise apparent from the nature of the matter or the context of the words.

    These other officials of the Roman Curia, which make up the remainder of the Apostolic See, only "cease to exercise their office" upon the death of the Pope (Pastor Bonus, Article 6; UDG 14). So the See is not lawfully vacant until the Pope dies.


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: +Vigano can Prove Sede Vacante?
    « Reply #115 on: August 18, 2023, 03:54:30 PM »
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  • Quote
    Provide a logical argument based on evidence to make your point, Pax.
    That's not how law works.  You have to interpret law, and regulations, in the context of the ENTIRE docuмent.  Section A refers to Section B, which refers to Section C, etc.

    You can't use "logic" to make arguments about legal docuмents.  :facepalm:  It's why people go to law school...it's a unique language.

    And i've already posted, legally, why your interpretation is wrong.  It was on another thread. 


    Offline Angelus

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    Re: +Vigano can Prove Sede Vacante?
    « Reply #116 on: August 18, 2023, 04:37:08 PM »
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  • That's not how law works.  You have to interpret law, and regulations, in the context of the ENTIRE docuмent.  Section A refers to Section B, which refers to Section C, etc.

    You can't use "logic" to make arguments about legal docuмents.  :facepalm:  It's why people go to law school...it's a unique language.

    And i've already posted, legally, why your interpretation is wrong.  It was on another thread.

    Wrong again. As St. Thomas makes clear, any true law must be reasonable. Otherwise, it is no law at all and should be ignored. 

    https://aquinas.cc/la/en/~ST.I-II.Q90.A1

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: +Vigano can Prove Sede Vacante?
    « Reply #117 on: August 18, 2023, 07:10:57 PM »
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    Wrong again. As St. Thomas makes clear, any true law must be reasonable. Otherwise, it is no law at all and should be ignored.
    What????  :confused:  I'm not even sure what you're talking about.

    Offline Angelus

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    Re: +Vigano can Prove Sede Vacante?
    « Reply #118 on: August 18, 2023, 07:57:30 PM »
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  • What????  :confused:  I'm not even sure what you're talking about.

    That's okay, Pax. It's clear that you don't understand these things because you stated that one "can't use 'logic' to make arguments about legal docuмents." That is absolutely false.

    The use of logic is, in fact, necessary to meet the first requirement of a true or just law, which is whether or not the law is "reasonable." This requirement is explained by St. Thomas in the Summa Theologica.

     For example, if the papal election law were to contradict divine law or the natural law, then that papal election law would be unreasonable. Similarly, if the papal election law contained internally-contradictory statements, then one would need to eliminate the ambiguity by looking to a higher law, such as Canon Law, to resolve that ambiguity.

    Logic reveals the presence of such contradictions and is absolutely necessary if one is to interpret legal docuмents properly.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: +Vigano can Prove Sede Vacante?
    « Reply #119 on: August 18, 2023, 08:28:19 PM »
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  • Quote
    Similarly, if the papal election law contained internally-contradictory statements,
    :confused: