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Author Topic: +Vigano can Prove Sede Vacante?  (Read 11818 times)

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Offline Meg

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Re: +Vigano can Prove Sede Vacante?
« Reply #90 on: August 17, 2023, 03:14:37 PM »
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  • As I have stated elsewhere, I am certain that Bergoglio is an Antipope for two reasons: 1) he was not canonically-elected and 2) he is a manifest, obstinate heretic. My first position is that he was never Pope. He did not lose an office that he never had. However, some people cannot understand the canonical argument, so the fall-back is that he is a manifest, obstinate heretic. In either case, he is an Antipope. And he is the only papal claimant who is currently alive. He is the only one that really matters from the perspective of me being obedient to legitimate Catholic authority.

    Moving now to papal history, which "sedevacantists" are obsessed with. I believe (because I have not seen convincing evidence to the contrary) that John XXIII through Benedict XVI were all canonically-elected. I am open to further evidence that those elections did not follow the law in place at the time. But I have not seen convincing evidence yet. And I haven't seen convincing evidence that any of those Popes automatically lost their office because of manifest, obstinate heresy. I agree with Fr. Paul Kramer on this.

    At the very least, counterfeit doctrines and counterfeit sacraments have been promoted by the infiltrators in the Vatican since VII. I just don't take a position that the Pope was the cause of this. I think it is more likely that the Popes were either unwilling or unable to rein in the ecclesiastical Freemasons who were actually in control of the Vatican. I do not want to rashly judge men when I don't know the full story. Therefore, I accept those men as valid Popes until proven otherwise. To me it is a historical question with a lot of unknowns.

    However, even if those men were authoritative Popes, I don't believe that they authoritatively commanded that we believe any new false teachings. I don't believe that they authoritatively commanded that we use the new counterfeit sacraments. And if they had authoritatively commanded that I would disobey because I believe that I would be sinning to believe or do hold false beliefs and receive false sacraments.

    Many of the Catholics who have accepted those new counterfeit beliefs and new counterfeit sacraments did not have a gun to their head. They voluntarily chose to take that counterfeit path. They chose this out of human respect in some cases. Out of spiritual sloth in some cases. Out of a desire to sin in some cases. And therein lies their culpability. God allowed this whole "Crisis in the Church" precisely to allow a self-separation of the Wheat from the Chaff.

    In your previous posts, it seemed that you accept that Pope Benedict was a valid pope (even after his abdication), but that Francis is not. Would that be accurate?
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Angelus

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    Re: +Vigano can Prove Sede Vacante?
    « Reply #91 on: August 17, 2023, 03:52:12 PM »
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  • In your previous posts, it seemed that you accept that Pope Benedict was a valid pope (even after his abdication), but that Francis is not. Would that be accurate?

    Yes, you are correct. BXVI was Pope until his natural death. Why? Because Universi Dominici Gregis does not allow a new papal election to begin until AFTER the death of the Pope:

    CHAPTER III
    THE BEGINNING OF THE ELECTION

    49. When the funeral rites for the deceased Pope have been celebrated according to the prescribed ritual, and everything necessary for the regular functioning of the election has been prepared, on the appointed day — and thus on the fifteenth day after the death of the Pope or, in conformity with the provisions of No. 37 of the present Constitution, not later than the twentieth — the Cardinal electors shall meet in the Basilica of Saint Peter's in the Vatican, or elsewhere, should circuмstances warrant it, in order to take part in a solemn Eucharistic celebration with the Votive Mass Pro Eligendo Papa.19 This celebration should preferably take place at a suitable hour in the morning, so that in the afternoon the prescriptions of the following Numbers of this Constitution can be carried out.


    You will note that there is no mention of a "resignation." The Pope who promulgated UDG could have inserted the words "or resignation" to make the phrase say something like

    "on the appointed day -- and thus on the fifteenth day after the death or resignation of the Pope..."

    But "resignation" is not mentioned at all in the section 49, which appoints EXACTLY when the DAY of the election must take place. Why would they leave that out do you think? The reason is because the election cannot take place until AFTER the Pope is dead.

    Therefore, BXVI was an inactive Pope after February 2013. But he was still the Pope until his death. BXVI acted as the "katechon," the "restrainer" mentioned in 2 Thessalonians 2:6-7, until his death.



    Offline Meg

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    Re: +Vigano can Prove Sede Vacante?
    « Reply #92 on: August 17, 2023, 05:25:55 PM »
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  • Yes, you are correct. BXVI was Pope until his natural death. Why? Because Universi Dominici Gregis does not allow a new papal election to begin until AFTER the death of the Pope:

    CHAPTER III
    THE BEGINNING OF THE ELECTION

    49. When the funeral rites for the deceased Pope have been celebrated according to the prescribed ritual, and everything necessary for the regular functioning of the election has been prepared, on the appointed day — and thus on the fifteenth day after the death of the Pope or, in conformity with the provisions of No. 37 of the present Constitution, not later than the twentieth — the Cardinal electors shall meet in the Basilica of Saint Peter's in the Vatican, or elsewhere, should circuмstances warrant it, in order to take part in a solemn Eucharistic celebration with the Votive Mass Pro Eligendo Papa.19 This celebration should preferably take place at a suitable hour in the morning, so that in the afternoon the prescriptions of the following Numbers of this Constitution can be carried out.


    You will note that there is no mention of a "resignation." The Pope who promulgated UDG could have inserted the words "or resignation" to make the phrase say something like

    "on the appointed day -- and thus on the fifteenth day after the death or resignation of the Pope..."

    But "resignation" is not mentioned at all in the section 49, which appoints EXACTLY when the DAY of the election must take place. Why would they leave that out do you think? The reason is because the election cannot take place until AFTER the Pope is dead.

    Therefore, BXVI was an inactive Pope after February 2013. But he was still the Pope until his death. BXVI acted as the "katechon," the "restrainer" mentioned in 2 Thessalonians 2:6-7, until his death.

    I appreciate the explanation. You mention that Benedict was an inactive pope after Feb. 2013. This makes sense, since he still wore papal garb. He was like a retired pope devoted to prayer. But, if there's a retired pope, shouldn't there still be an active pope? I seem to recall that Benedict said himself that he was abdicating and that we should accept his successor, Francis, or do I have that wrong? 
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Angelus

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    Re: +Vigano can Prove Sede Vacante?
    « Reply #93 on: August 17, 2023, 06:01:21 PM »
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  • I appreciate the explanation. You mention that Benedict was an inactive pope after Feb. 2013. This makes sense, since he still wore papal garb. He was like a retired pope devoted to prayer. But, if there's a retired pope, shouldn't there still be an active pope? I seem to recall that Benedict said himself that he was abdicating and that we should accept his successor, Francis, or do I have that wrong?

    Much was said in the media about what BXVI said after the "resignation." I look at what the law requires. The Pope can change the law, but he cannot ignore a law that is still in force.

    According to the law, there cannot be an active Pope until a new papal election occurs. So you might ask, who is suppose to run the Church during that period after a resignation but before a death of a Pope? That is explained in detail in Universi Dominici Gregis and Pastor Bonus. The remaining constituents of the Apostolic See. You can see how that entity, the Apostolic See, works by reading the two Canons:


    THE ROMAN CURIA

    Can. 360 The Supreme Pontiff usually conducts the affairs of the universal Church through the Roman Curia which performs its function in his name and by his authority for the good and service of the churches. The Roman Curia consists of the Secretariat of State or the Papal Secretariat, the Council for the Public Affairs of the Church, congregations, tribunals, and other institutes; the constitution and competence of all these are defined in special law.
    Can. 361 In this Code, the term Apostolic See or Holy See refers not only to the Roman Pontiff but also to the Secretariat of State, the Council for the Public Affairs of the Church, and other institutes of the Roman Curia, unless it is otherwise apparent from the nature of the matter or the context of the words.



    Offline Emile

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    Re: +Vigano can Prove Sede Vacante?
    « Reply #94 on: August 17, 2023, 06:46:47 PM »
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  • Much was said in the media about what BXVI said after the "resignation." I look at what the law requires. The Pope can change the law, but he cannot ignore a law that is still in force.
    ...


    Quote
    CIC 1983

    331
    §2. If it happens that the Roman Pontiff resigns his office, it is required for validity that the resignation is made freely and properly manifested but not that it is accepted by anyone.

    https://www.vatican.va/archive/cod-iuris-canonici/eng/docuмents/cic_lib2-cann330-367_en.html#SECTION_I.


    Quote
    APOSTOLIC LETTER
    ISSUED MOTU PROPRIO
    NORMAS NONNULLAS
    OF THE SUPREME PONTIFF
    BENEDICT XVI
    ON CERTAIN MODIFICATIONS TO THE NORMS
    GOVERNING THE ELECTION OF THE ROMAN PONTIFF

    No. 37. "I furthermore decree that, from the moment when the Apostolic See is lawfully vacant, fifteen full days must elapse before the Conclave begins, in order to await those who are absent; nonetheless, the College of Cardinals is granted the faculty to move forward the start of the Conclave if it is clear that all the Cardinal electors are present; they can also defer, for serious reasons, the beginning of the election for a few days more. But when a maximum of twenty days have elapsed from the beginning of the vacancy of the See, all the Cardinal electors present are obliged to proceed to the election."

    Given in Rome, at Saint Peter’s, on 22 February in the year 2013, the eighth of my Pontificate.

    (11 days after announcing his forthcoming resignation)

    https://www.vatican.va/content/benedict-xvi/en/motu_proprio/docuмents/hf_ben-xvi_motu-proprio_20130222_normas-nonnullas.html

    No mention of death being necessary. 

    What next, claim that a Pope can resign, a conclave can take place, but the elected can't assume the office or the "he didn't really resign even though he said he did" or the "he didn't resign freely" bandwagon?

    :popcorn:


    If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?

    ― Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago


    Offline Angelus

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    Re: +Vigano can Prove Sede Vacante?
    « Reply #95 on: August 17, 2023, 07:12:45 PM »
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  • No mention of death being necessary. 

    What next, claim that a Pope can resign, a conclave can take place, but the elected can't assume the office or the "he didn't really resign even though he said he did" or the "he didn't resign freely" bandwagon?

    :popcorn:

    You referenced up Section 37, which is under Chapter I, entitled "The Electors of the Roman Pontiff." So that section is not primarily concerned with the details of the timing of the election but, rather, with those Cardinals who will take an active role in the event. Specifically, it allows a time delay of five days if some Cardinals cannot make it to Rome within 15 days after See is lawfully vacant, which is a reference to the provision of Pastor Bonus, Article 6, which states that the Apostolic See is not lawfully vacant until "the death of the Pope":

    Art. 6 — On the death of the Supreme Pontiff, all moderators and members of the dicasteries cease from their office. The camerlengo of the Roman Church and the major penitentiary are excepted, who expedite ordinary business and refer to the College of Cardinals those things which would have been referred to the Supreme Pontiff.

    Which is referenced in UDG 14:

    14. According to the provisions of Article 6 of the Apostolic Constitution Pastor Bonus, at the death of the Pope all the heads of the Dicasteries of the Roman Curia — the Cardinal Secretary of State and the Cardinal Prefects, the Archbishop Presidents, together with the members of those Dicasteries — cease to exercise their office. An exception is made for the Camerlengo of Holy Roman Church and the Major Penitentiary, who continue to exercise their ordinary functions, submitting to the College of Cardinals matters that would have had to be referred to the Supreme Pontiff.


    In my previous post, I referenced UDG Section 49, which is in Chapter III, entitled "The Beginning of the Election." That section appoints the exact time that the election must begin. The exact time specified is, you guessed it, "after the death of the Pope" and after "the funeral rites for the deceased Pope have been celebrated." No optional "resignation" is mentioned at all.

    Why would you suggest those scenarios that you posit in your last paragraph? As I have shown, a conclave/election cannot take place until AFTER the death of the Pope, according to the law. There is no other option in Universi Dominici Gregis.

    Offline Emile

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    Re: +Vigano can Prove Sede Vacante?
    « Reply #96 on: August 17, 2023, 07:43:08 PM »
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  • You referenced up Section 37, which is under Chapter I, entitled "The Electors of the Roman Pontiff." So that section is not primarily concerned with the details of the timing of the election but, rather, with those Cardinals who will take an active role in the event. Specifically, it allows a time delay of five days if some Cardinals cannot make it to Rome within 15 days after See is lawfully vacant, which is a reference to the provision of Pastor Bonus, Article 6, which states that the Apostolic See is not lawfully vacant until "the death of the Pope":

    Art. 6 — On the death of the Supreme Pontiff, all moderators and members of the dicasteries cease from their office. The camerlengo of the Roman Church and the major penitentiary are excepted, who expedite ordinary business and refer to the College of Cardinals those things which would have been referred to the Supreme Pontiff.

    Which is referenced in UDG 14:

    14. According to the provisions of Article 6 of the Apostolic Constitution Pastor Bonus, at the death of the Pope all the heads of the Dicasteries of the Roman Curia — the Cardinal Secretary of State and the Cardinal Prefects, the Archbishop Presidents, together with the members of those Dicasteries — cease to exercise their office. An exception is made for the Camerlengo of Holy Roman Church and the Major Penitentiary, who continue to exercise their ordinary functions, submitting to the College of Cardinals matters that would have had to be referred to the Supreme Pontiff.


    In my previous post, I referenced UDG Section 49, which is in Chapter III, entitled "The Beginning of the Election." That section appoints the exact time that the election must begin. The exact time specified is, you guessed it, "after the death of the Pope" and after "the funeral rites for the deceased Pope have been celebrated." No optional "resignation" is mentioned at all.

    Why would you suggest those scenarios that you posit in your last paragraph? As I have shown, a conclave/election cannot take place until AFTER the death of the Pope, according to the law. There is no other option in Universi Dominici Gregis.
    I know that you won't listen because your mind is fixated on this very strange and novel interpretation of law, but here it is again:

    UDG

    77. I decree that the dispositions concerning everything that precedes the election of the Roman Pontiff and the carrying out of the election itself must be observed in full, even if the vacancy of the Apostolic See should occur as a result of the resignation of the Supreme Pontiff, in accordance with the provisions of Canon 333 § 2 of the Code of Canon Law and Canon 44 § 2 of the Code of Canons of the Eastern Churches.

    https://www.vatican.va/content/john-paul-ii/en/apost_constitutions/docuмents/hf_jp-ii_apc_22021996_universi-dominici-gregis.html

    The laws come into full effect upon the vacancy of the Apostolic See. Said vacancy occurs either at the death or the valid resignation of a Pope. I know that you have obsessed about this enough to even create a website and have made umpteen posts on CI about it, but it really isn't that complicated.
    If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?

    ― Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago

    Offline Angelus

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    Re: +Vigano can Prove Sede Vacante?
    « Reply #97 on: August 17, 2023, 08:11:18 PM »
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  • I know that you won't listen but here it is again:

    UDG

    77. I decree that the dispositions concerning everything that precedes the election of the Roman Pontiff and the carrying out of the election itself must be observed in full, even if the vacancy of the Apostolic See should occur as a result of the resignation of the Supreme Pontiff, in accordance with the provisions of Canon 333 § 2 of the Code of Canon Law and Canon 44 § 2 of the Code of Canons of the Eastern Churches.

    https://www.vatican.va/content/john-paul-ii/en/apost_constitutions/docuмents/hf_jp-ii_apc_22021996_universi-dominici-gregis.html

    You seem to think the underlined clause means: that an election can be held EITHER 1) when the Pope dies OR 2) when there is a vacancy as a result of a resignation. This is incorrect.

    To read it your way, we must assume that, when there is a "resignation," it would be possible to "observe in full" all of the pre-election requirements of UDG. As I have repeatedly shown, UDG 49 requires that the Pope die, have a funeral, and be buried at least 15 days prior to the election. There is no exception to that requirement in the sections of UDG that precede Section 77.

    In every place that UDG categorically states that the "death of the Pope" must occur before X, Y, and Z happens, you will find no alternative option in the case of a resignation. How do you explain that fact? Did they just forget to add that option?

    If you will just read UDG from beginning to end with an open mind, you will understand what I'm saying.


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: +Vigano can Prove Sede Vacante?
    « Reply #98 on: August 18, 2023, 08:14:31 AM »
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  • Angelus, please clarify what kind of legal background you have.  Because this election law is legal language.  And your reading of it is wacked out.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: +Vigano can Prove Sede Vacante?
    « Reply #99 on: August 18, 2023, 08:40:49 AM »
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  • Angelus, if you want to address Antichrist Jorge, there are a half dozen better ways to question his election, whether due to collusion from the St. Gallen mafia (which according to the Wojtyla / Ratzinger docs would invalidate the election) or +Vigano's assertions, or even the (weak) argument that Ratzinger didn't properly resign.

    But this nonsense about how a conclave cannot proceed unless the pope has received funeral rites (when no pope has died) is ridiculous, and I can't believe that you continue to cling to it.

    I've already pointed out that there's no "article" in Latin, and the reference to funeral rites of the deceased pope mean the funeral rites of A deceased pope, i.e. "in the event that the See is vacant due as a result of a deceased pope, his funeral rites should be carried out before the conclave begins".  You don't understand Latin.  It is utterly absurd that if a Pope were to resign, he must be given a funeral and buried before the conclave could begin.  You need to stop, since you're just making a fool of yourself and are discrediting anything of value you might have to offer.

    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: +Vigano can Prove Sede Vacante?
    « Reply #100 on: August 18, 2023, 11:24:54 AM »
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  • Angelus, if you want to address Antichrist Jorge, there are a half dozen better ways to question his election, whether due to collusion from the St. Gallen mafia (which according to the Wojtyla / Ratzinger docs would invalidate the election) or +Vigano's assertions, or even the (weak) argument that Ratzinger didn't properly resign.

    You are wrong that the argument that Joseph Ratzinger did not validly resign is a weak argument.  That argument, from a purely canonical perspective, is the strongest argument that Jorge Berogoglio was invalidly elected.


    Offline Angelus

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    Re: +Vigano can Prove Sede Vacante?
    « Reply #101 on: August 18, 2023, 12:16:35 PM »
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  • Angelus, please clarify what kind of legal background you have.  Because this election law is legal language.  And your reading of it is wacked out.

    No one should listen to me because of my academic background. You should examine the evidence and the logic that I provide. If you are not persuaded, c'est la vie.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: +Vigano can Prove Sede Vacante?
    « Reply #102 on: August 18, 2023, 12:22:09 PM »
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  • You are wrong that the argument that Joseph Ratzinger did not validly resign is a weak argument.  That argument, from a purely canonical perspective, is the strongest argument that Jorge Berogoglio was invalidly elected.

    No, it's rooted in the same kind of sophistry that Angelus' argument is.  It's clear that Ratzinger intended to resign.

    What's actually quite compelling is the admitted collusion by St. Gallen mafia.  One of the conspirators basically admitted it.  One could also try to make the case that he was "forced" to resign, but I've seen no concrete evidence of that, and Ratzinger has repeatedly denied it.  And of course he's dead now.

    But it's all a theater of the absurd, as getting rid of Jorge does not by itself even takes us 1% of the way toward resolving the problem of Vatican II and the Conciliar Church.

    Offline Angelus

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    Re: +Vigano can Prove Sede Vacante?
    « Reply #103 on: August 18, 2023, 12:36:48 PM »
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  • Angelus, if you want to address Antichrist Jorge, there are a half dozen better ways to question his election, whether due to collusion from the St. Gallen mafia (which according to the Wojtyla / Ratzinger docs would invalidate the election) or +Vigano's assertions, or even the (weak) argument that Ratzinger didn't properly resign.

    But this nonsense about how a conclave cannot proceed unless the pope has received funeral rites (when no pope has died) is ridiculous, and I can't believe that you continue to cling to it.

    I've already pointed out that there's no "article" in Latin, and the reference to funeral rites of the deceased pope mean the funeral rites of A deceased pope, i.e. "in the event that the See is vacant due as a result of a deceased pope, his funeral rites should be carried out before the conclave begins".  You don't understand Latin.  It is utterly absurd that if a Pope were to resign, he must be given a funeral and buried before the conclave could begin.  You need to stop, since you're just making a fool of yourself and are discrediting anything of value you might have to offer.

    Again, your disagreement seems to be with the promulgator of Universi Dominici Gregis, not me. Here it is again.


    STEP 1

    CHAPTER III - THE BEGINNING OF THE ELECTION

    49. When the funeral rites for the deceased Pope have been celebrated according to the prescribed ritual, and everything necessary for the regular functioning of the election has been prepared, on the appointed day — and thus on the fifteenth day after the death of the Pope or, in conformity with the provisions of No. 37 of the present Constitution, not later than the twentieth — the Cardinal electors shall meet in the Basilica of Saint Peter's in the Vatican, or elsewhere, should circuмstances warrant it, in order to take part in a solemn Eucharistic celebration with the Votive Mass Pro Eligendo Papa.19 This celebration should preferably take place at a suitable hour in the morning, so that in the afternoon the prescriptions of the following Numbers of this Constitution can be carried out.

    MAJOR PREMISE
    Universi Dominici Gregis requires that any papal election may begin only AFTER the death of the Pope. (UDG 49)

    MINOR PREMISE
    The 2013 papal election began BEFORE the death of the Pope.

    CONCLUSION
    Therefore, the 2013 papal election did not conform to the requirements of Universi Dominici Gregis.


    STEP 2

    CHAPTER V  -  THE ELECTION PROCEDURE

    76. Should the election take place in a way other than that prescribed in the present Constitution, or should the conditions laid down here not be observed, the election is for this very reason null and void, without any need for a declaration on the matter; consequently, it confers no right on the one elected.

    MAJOR PREMISE
    Any papal election that takes place in a way other than prescribed in Universi Dominici Gregis is null and void. (UDG 76)

    MINOR PREMISE
    The 2013 papal election did not take place as prescribed in Universi Dominici Gregis. (see STEP 1 above)

    CONCLUSION
    Therefore, the 2013 papal election was null and void.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: +Vigano can Prove Sede Vacante?
    « Reply #104 on: August 18, 2023, 01:02:36 PM »
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  • :facepalm:  Angelus, just stop.  You have to read legal docuмents in full context of ALL sections, amendments, and provisions.