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Author Topic: +Vigano can Prove Sede Vacante?  (Read 11993 times)

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Online Angelus

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Re: +Vigano can Prove Sede Vacante?
« Reply #60 on: August 16, 2023, 03:01:45 PM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on August 16, 2023, 02:42:34 PM
    This isn't about a circle really being a square. I believe the same as Archbishop Lefebvre, who was treated very badly by the Modernist Popes, specifically JP2. He called them Modernists. And I'll take his word over yours.

    Traditionalists aren't treated any better by the Modernist pope now, than they were when Archbishop Lefebvre was alive. The Modernists still hate the Old Mass and Tradition. It's been that way for awhile now.

    You dodged my question about your disrespectful attitude for "the Pope" and how that would be a sin according to Catholic teaching.

    If you think Bergoglio is truly "the Pope," you do not act like a Catholic must act towards "the Pope." Here is the relevant teaching from the Catechism of Pius X:

    Question 62
    Q. How should every Catholic act towards the Pope?
    A. Every Catholic must acknowledge the Pope as Father, Pastor, and Universal Teacher, and be united with him in mind and heart.

    Do you consider yourself to be "united with [Bergoglio] in mind and heart?" Do you consider Bergoglio your "Father, Pastor, and Universal Teacher?" That is what the Catholic Faith requires of you, Meg.

    Or do you think that the Catechism of Pius X is not Catholic teaching.
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: +Vigano can Prove Sede Vacante?
    « Reply #61 on: August 16, 2023, 03:11:50 PM »
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    • Quote from: Angelus on August 16, 2023, 03:01:45 PM
    You dodged my question about your disrespectful attitude for "the Pope" and how that would be a sin according to Catholic teaching.

    If you think Bergoglio is truly "the Pope," you do not act like a Catholic must act towards "the Pope." Here is the relevant teaching from the Catechism of Pius X:

    Question 62
    Q. How should every Catholic act towards the Pope?
    A. Every Catholic must acknowledge the Pope as Father, Pastor, and Universal Teacher, and be united with him in mind and heart.

    Do you consider yourself to be "united with [Bergoglio] in mind and heart?" Do you consider Bergoglio your "Father, Pastor, and Universal Teacher?" That is what the Catholic Faith requires of you, Meg.

    Or do you think that the Catechism of Pius X is not Catholic teaching.

    I would have thought it was obvious, given my mentioning of Archbishop Lefebvre, that the popes since Vll have been Modernists. No, I'm not united with Francis in mind and heart. We obey God before men. The Pope is not God.
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Online Angelus

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    Re: +Vigano can Prove Sede Vacante?
    « Reply #62 on: August 16, 2023, 03:23:54 PM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on August 16, 2023, 03:11:50 PM
    I would have thought it was obvious, given my mentioning of Archbishop Lefebvre, that the popes since Vll have been Modernists. No, I'm not united with Francis in mind and heart. We obey God before men. The Pope is not God.

    Okay Meg. Now let's do some logic.

    Pius X said: "Every Catholic must acknowledge the Pope as Father, Pastor, and Universal Teacher, and be united with him in mind and heart."

    Meg said: "I'm not united with Francis in mind and heart."

    Therefore, we must conclude, logically:

    EITHER "Meg does not think Francis is the Pope, and Meg might be Catholic."
    OR "Meg does think Francis is the Pope, and Meg is definitely not Catholic."

    Which is it Meg? Is Francis the Pope, defined as "the Father, Pastor, and Universal Teacher" by Pius X?

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    Offline Meg

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    Re: +Vigano can Prove Sede Vacante?
    « Reply #63 on: August 16, 2023, 03:27:09 PM »
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    • Quote from: Angelus on August 16, 2023, 03:23:54 PM
    Okay Meg. Now let's do some logic.

    Pius X said: "Every Catholic must acknowledge the Pope as Father, Pastor, and Universal Teacher, and be united with him in mind and heart."

    Meg said: "I'm not united with Francis in mind and heart."

    Therefore, we must conclude, logically:

    EITHER "Meg does not think 'Francis' is the Pope, and Meg might be Catholic."
    OR "Meg does think Francis is the Pope, and Meg is definitely not Catholic."

    Which is it Meg? Is Francis "the Pope, defined as "the Father, Pastor, and Universal Teacher" by Pius X?

    Perhaps you aren't aware of it, but there's a serious Crisis in the Church. The Church is currently occupied by a Modernist sect. I could refer you to some resources about what Modernism is, if you would like, since you appear to not understand this problem.

    I would love to be united with the Pope in heart and mind. Unfortunately, I'm prevented from doing that. The Pope is the visible head of the Church, but he is not the actual head. Our Lord Jesus Christ is the actual head of the Catholic Church, and I obey Him.

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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: +Vigano can Prove Sede Vacante?
    « Reply #64 on: August 16, 2023, 03:37:46 PM »
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    • Quote from: OABrownson1876 on August 16, 2023, 12:00:42 PM
    +Carol Wojtyla was consecrated a bishop in 1958, and he consecrated +Vigano in 1992.  Does anyone on CI know what form was used for the consecration of +Vigano, new  or old rite? 
    Why would JPII-we-love-you use the Old, Traditional Rite....in 1992!?
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    Online Angelus

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    Re: +Vigano can Prove Sede Vacante?
    « Reply #65 on: August 16, 2023, 03:44:29 PM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on August 16, 2023, 03:27:09 PM
    Perhaps you aren't aware of it, but there's a serious Crisis in the Church. The Church is currently occupied by a Modernist sect. I could refer you to some resources about what Modernism is, if you would like, since you appear to not understand this problem.

    I would love to be united with the Pope in heart and mind. Unfortunately, I'm prevented from doing that. The Pope is the visible head of the Church, but he is not the actual head. Our Lord Jesus Christ is the actual head, and I obey Him.

    Let's try again.

    MAJOR PREMISE: 
    Every Catholic must acknowledge the Pope as Father, Pastor, and Universal Teacher, and be united with him in mind and heart.

    MINOR PREMISE:
    Meg is not united with Pope Francis in mind and heart

    CONCLUSION: 
    Meg is not Catholic.

    Do you see how nifty that is? God gave us that so we can detect lies. It's called a Syllogism and it uses the principle of non-contradiction to discover the Truth.

    Now Meg, will you admit that your position that a real, authoritative Pope can be a Modernist is not rationally defensible, or will you be obstinate in your refusal to submit to Catholic teaching that an authoritative Pope cannot be a heretic?
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: +Vigano can Prove Sede Vacante?
    « Reply #66 on: August 16, 2023, 03:49:05 PM »
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    • Quote from: Angelus on August 16, 2023, 03:44:29 PM
    Let's try again.

    MAJOR PREMISE:
    Every Catholic must acknowledge the Pope as Father, Pastor, and Universal Teacher, and be united with him in mind and heart.

    MINOR PREMISE:
    Meg is not united with Pope Francis in mind and heart

    CONCLUSION:
    Meg is not Catholic.

    Do you see how nifty that is? God gave us that so we can detect lies. It's called a Syllogism and it uses the principle of non-contradiction to discover the Truth.

    Now Meg, will you admit that your position that a real, authoritative Pope can be a Modernist is not rationally defensible, or will you be obstinate in your refusal to submit to Catholic teaching that an authoritative Pope cannot be a heretic?

    Your approach to the Crisis in the Church is different from mine and that of Archbishop Lefebvre. I can't really address your approach, since it completely differs from mine. 

    Archbishop Lefebvre said that the Crisis is a mystery. Why would God allow such a thing? And yet He has. Like the Archbishop, I don't take the most drastic approach to the Crisis. You have chosen differently. 
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Online Angelus

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    Re: +Vigano can Prove Sede Vacante?
    « Reply #67 on: August 16, 2023, 04:09:04 PM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on August 16, 2023, 03:49:05 PM
    Your approach to the Crisis in the Church is different from mine and that of Archbishop Lefebvre. I can't really address your approach, since it completely differs from mine.

    Archbishop Lefebvre said that the Crisis is a mystery. Why would God allow such a thing? And yet He has. Like the Archbishop, I don't take the most drastic approach to the Crisis. You have chosen differently.

    Meg, the Truth is one. There are not multiple truths. A round thing is not a square. A square thing is not a circle. We don't get to just make up stuff. Reality is reality.

    If you are not willing to say that you are "united to Bergoglio in mind and heart," good for you! The Holy Spirit is guiding you. Follow your conscience on that.

    The next part about your response to "the Crisis in the Church" is secondary to following your conscience. You correctly believe that Bergoglio is a Modernist heretic and you are not "united" with him. This means you probably are Catholic. But you are just confused about how to respond to the question of "who's the Pope."

    But, as I have shown you, you cannot BOTH withhold your "unity" with Bergoglio AND believe that Bergoglio is the authoritative Pope. To hold that position contradicts the Catholic Faith.

    So the easy answer is to acknowledge that Bergoglio is simply not the Pope. He is an Antipope. That argument would go something like this:

    MAJOR PREMISE:
    No person can be both a Modernist heretic and an authoritative Pope at the same time.

    MINOR PREMISE:
    Bergoglio is a Modernist heretic.

    CONCLUSION:
    Bergoglio cannot be the authoritative Pope.

    Where does this leave you? You will accept that currently the Roman See is vacant, as many others do. You may decide not to go any farther than that. You may decide that the question on the status on previous Popes is a mystery to you. But, one thing is certain, you cannot believe BOTH that Bergoglio is a Modernist heretic AND that he is also the authoritative Pope.

    Does that make sense?

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    Offline Meg

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    Re: +Vigano can Prove Sede Vacante?
    « Reply #68 on: August 16, 2023, 04:17:44 PM »
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    • Quote from: Angelus on August 16, 2023, 04:09:04 PM
    Meg, the Truth is one. There are not multiple truths. A round thing is not a square. A square thing is not a circle. We don't get to just make up stuff. Reality is reality.

    If you are not willing to say that you are "united to Bergoglio in mind and heart," good for you! The Holy Spirit is guiding you. Follow your conscience on that.

    The next part about your response to "the Crisis in the Church" is secondary to following your conscience. You correctly believe that Bergoglio is a Modernist heretic and you are not "united" with him. This means you probably are Catholic. But you are just confused about how to respond to the question of "who's the Pope."

    But, as I have shown you, you cannot BOTH withhold your "unity" with Bergoglio AND believe that Bergoglio is the authoritative Pope. To hold that position contradicts the Catholic Faith.

    So the easy answer is to acknowledge that Bergoglio is simply not the Pope. He is an Antipope. That argument would go something like this:

    MAJOR PREMISE:
    No person can be both a Modernist heretic and an authoritative Pope at the same time.

    MINOR PREMISE:
    Bergoglio is a Modernist heretic.

    CONCLUSION:
    Bergoglio cannot be the authoritative Pope.

    Where does this leave you? You will accept that currently the Roman See is vacant, as many others do. You may decide not to go any farther than that. You may decide that the question on the status on previous Popes is a mystery to you. But, one thing is certain, you cannot believe BOTH that Bergoglio is a Modernist heretic AND that he is also the authoritative Pope.

    Does that make sense?

    Sedevacantism is one approach to the Crisis. I can understand why a Traditional Catholic would take this approach, given the heresies and errors of the conciliar popes, but it's not for me. Like the Archbishop, I don't think it prudent to take the most drastic approach to the Crisis.

    As Bp. Williamson has stated in the past, sedevacantists generally see the situation of the Crisis in black-and-white terms, or rather they need to see it this way. It has to be clear and cut and dry. No grey areas. Well, I think that we should allow for grey areas, and that there are things about the Crisis that we just aren't going to understand. God will sort it out eventually. Meantime, we do what we have to do to save our souls, and that of our family.
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Online Angelus

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    Re: +Vigano can Prove Sede Vacante?
    « Reply #69 on: August 16, 2023, 05:44:47 PM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on August 16, 2023, 04:17:44 PM
    Sedevacantism is one approach to the Crisis. I can understand why a Traditional Catholic would take this approach, given the heresies and errors of the conciliar popes, but it's not for me. Like the Archbishop, I don't think it prudent to take the most drastic approach to the Crisis.

    As Bp. Williamson has stated in the past, sedevacantists generally see the situation of the Crisis in black-and-white terms, or rather they need to see it this way. It has to be clear and cut and dry. No grey areas. Well, I think that we should allow for grey areas, and that there are things about the Crisis that we just aren't going to understand. God will sort it out eventually. Meantime, we do what we have to do to save our souls, and that of our family.

    Meg, some things are easy to discern. Some things are harder to discern. Bergoglio is easy to discern. He is the only current person who claims to be the Pope. But your conscience tells you that he can't be the true "Holy Father." So the Chair of Peter doesn't have a legitimate, authoritative person sitting in it at the moment. We are living in a "papal interregnum." If the word "sedevacantism" scares you, don't use that word. Just say that Bergoglio is not the Pope and act accordingly.

    There are different flavors of "sedevacantism." Concerning the Popes from John XXIII-BXVI, you don't have to decide that those men were not Popes, if you are not sure. After all, they are dead. Ignore them. None of them claimed to dogmatically teach anything new anyway. If you want to believe that they were real Popes but made bad decisions, like ABL said, that's fine. Why not just leave it at that? 
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: +Vigano can Prove Sede Vacante?
    « Reply #70 on: August 16, 2023, 05:49:45 PM »
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    • Quote from: Angelus on August 16, 2023, 05:44:47 PM
    Meg, some things are easy to discern. Some things are harder to discern. Bergoglio is easy to discern. He is the only current person who claims to be the Pope. But your conscience tells you that he can't be the true "Holy Father." So the Chair of Peter doesn't have a legitimate, authoritative person sitting in it at the moment. We are living in a "papal interregnum." If the word "sedevacantism" scares you, don't use that word. Just say that Bergoglio is not the Pope and act accordingly.

    There are different flavors of "sedevacantism." Concerning the Popes from John XXIII-BXVI, you don't have to decide that those men were not Popes, if you are not sure. After all, they are dead. Ignore them. None of them claimed to dogmatically teach anything new anyway. If you want to believe that they were real Popes but made bad decisions, like ABL said, that's fine. Why not just leave it at that?

    I agree that there exists many flavors of sedevacantism. They've been discussed for many years here. It's not like any of us here are new to the subject of sedevacantism.

    However, your particular flavor is quite extreme. You believe that Francis is THE Antichrist, son of satan. How much success have you had in converting others to this view?
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Online Angelus

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    Re: +Vigano can Prove Sede Vacante?
    « Reply #71 on: August 16, 2023, 06:04:41 PM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on August 16, 2023, 05:49:45 PM
    I agree that there exist many flavors of sedevacantism. They've been discussed for many years here. It's not like any of us here are new to the subject of sedevacantism.

    However, your particular flavor is quite extreme. You believe that Francis is THE Antichrist, son of satan. How much success have you had in converting others to this view?

    Many good Catholics will fail to recognize the infallible sign discussed by St. Paul in 2 Thessalonians 2, if they cannot understand that Bergoglio is an Antipope. They will try to explain away what is obviously happening before their eyes because they don't want to believe that a real Pope can be the Antichrist. To be clear, a real Pope cannot be the Antichrist. But a deceiver, pretending to be the Pope, can be and is the Antichrist. His name is Jorge Mario Bergoglio.

    If they accept that Bergoglio is an Antipope, then everything they are seeing will make sense. The Biblical prophecies will come alive for them, and they can prepare spiritually for what is about to happen. This preparation is absolutely necessary to avoid the worst that will come over the next few years.

    It may surprise you, but I have seen some success converting the people that I care about most in my life. But I have to give the credit to Our Lord and Our Lady for that. But sadly most people don't want to listen. As Jesus said, it's like "the days of Noah."
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    Online Emile

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    Re: +Vigano can Prove Sede Vacante?
    « Reply #72 on: August 16, 2023, 06:51:18 PM »
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    • Quote from: Angelus on August 16, 2023, 06:04:41 PM
    ... and they can prepare spiritually for what is about to happen. This preparation is absolutely necessary to avoid the worst that will come over the next few years.
    ...
    I shouldn't, but I'm curious to know what, precisely, this spiritual preparation consists of.


    pre·cise·ly

    adverb
    adverb: precisely
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    If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?

    ― Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: +Vigano can Prove Sede Vacante?
    « Reply #73 on: August 16, 2023, 07:23:15 PM »
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    • Quote
    Many good Catholics will fail to recognize the infallible sign discussed by St. Paul in 2 Thessalonians 2, if they cannot understand that Bergoglio is an Antipope. They will try to explain away what is obviously happening before their eyes because they don't want to believe that a real Pope can be the Antichrist. To be clear, a real Pope cannot be the Antichrist. But a deceiver, pretending to be the Pope, can be and is the Antichrist. His name is Jorge Mario Bergoglio.
    Dude...

    Most Trads recognize that "Francis" is either a) a horrible pope, or b) an antipope, or c) no pope at all. 

    You are preaching to the choir.  I'm glad that is approach has awoken your friends/family, but for most on this site...we're not going to be surprised at ANYTHING that comes out of Francis' mouth (or any future "pope") of new-rome.  I'm waiting for the day when Francis/future anti-pope proclaims that "all religions are one".  The signs are all there.

    You don't have to spend time "converting us" to the fact that new-rome has lost the Faith; Meg is well aware.

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    Online Angelus

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    Re: +Vigano can Prove Sede Vacante?
    « Reply #74 on: August 16, 2023, 07:43:05 PM »
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    • Quote from: Emile on August 16, 2023, 06:51:18 PM
    I shouldn't, but I'm curious to know what, precisely, this spiritual preparation consists of.


    pre·cise·ly

    adverb
    adverb: precisely

    For you, put down the dictionary. You can't take it with you.
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