Author Topic: +Vigano can Prove Sede Vacante? (Read 12001 times)

Meg · « **Reply #45 on:** August 16, 2023, 10:08:56 AM »

Quote from: Angelus on August 16, 2023, 09:50:47 AM

Read carefully Meg:

https://aquinas.cc/la/en/~2Thess.C2.L1.n40

40. When he says so that he sits in the temple of God, showing himself as if he were God, he gives the sign of this wrongdoing. For the Antichrist’s pride is greater than the pride of all who came before him. So as it is written of Gaius Caesar that he wanted to be worshiped while he was still alive, and put statues of himself in every temple, and as Ezekiel says of the king of Tyre, I have said that I am God (Ezek 28:2), so it is quite believable that the Antichrist will act as they did, saying that he is both God and man. And as a sign of this he will sit in the temple.

But in what temple? Was it not destroyed by the Romans? This is why some say that the Antichrist is from the tribe of Dan, whose tribe is not named among the other twelve in Revelation (Rev 7:5). Because of this, the Jєωs will accept him at first, and will rebuild the temple in Jerusalem, and thus Daniel will be fulfilled: an abomination and an idol will be in the temple (Dan 9:27). But when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet standing in the holy place, let him who reads understand (Matt 24:15).

But some say that neither Jerusalem nor the temple will ever be rebuilt, but that their desolation will last until the final consummation. And even some Jєωs believe this. So this text is explained to mean in the temple of God, i.e., in the Church, since many from the church will accept him. Or according to Augustine, he sits in the temple of God, i.e., he rules and governs as though he himself with his messengers were the temple of God, as Christ is the temple with his adherents.

I asked for clear references to your claims. So far, you have not provided that.

Angelus · « **Reply #46 on:** August 16, 2023, 10:54:14 AM »

Quote from: Meg on August 16, 2023, 10:08:56 AM

I asked for clear references to your claims. So far, you have not provided that.

Meg, here is exactly what you asked for:

Quote from: Meg on August 16, 2023, 09:26:36 AM

If you can show specific Church teaching, or specific citations from the Church Fathers which show CLEARLY that a fake pope of a fake church in Rome that was previously Catholic would become the seat of the antichrist, then I will pay more attention to your claims. They key here, IMO, is clear references to your claims, not inferences.

I have shown you in my previous post that St. Thomas is quoting "some" of the Church Fathers as saying that the Antichrist will "sit" [sedeat] in the "Temple of God" which is explained that he will have his seat "in the Church, since many from the church will accept him."

Now, Meg, what do we call the person who has his "seat" [See] in Rome and governs "the Church." Is this not the person who claims to be "the Pope?" How can this be any more "clear?"

And what will the Antichrist do according to St. Thomas? He will "put statues [statua] of himself in every temple." That is a reference to Daniel 2:31, as St. Thomas says in section 34. Did you know that "statua" can mean images or portraits, in Latin. Have you noticed that all the chapels/churches you go into have a "portrait" of Bergoglio in the vestibule and if you ask them to remove it they will look at you like you are crazy?

What other living person do you know of that has his portrait displayed in every Catholic Church?

Meg · « **Reply #47 on:** August 16, 2023, 11:24:36 AM »

Quote from: Angelus on August 16, 2023, 10:54:14 AM

Meg, here is exactly what you asked for:

I have shown you in my previous post that St. Thomas is quoting "some" of the Church Fathers as saying that the Antichrist will "sit" [sedeat] in the "Temple of God" which is explained that he will have his seat "in the Church, since many from the church will accept him."

Now, Meg, what do we call the person who has his "seat" [See] in Rome and governs "the Church." Is this not the person who claims to be "the Pope?" How can this be any more "clear?"

And what will the Antichrist do according to St. Thomas? He will "put statues [statua] of himself in every temple." That is a reference to Daniel 2:31, as St. Thomas says in section 34. Did you know that "statua" can mean images or portraits, in Latin. Have you noticed that all the chapels/churches you go into have a "portrait" of Bergoglio in the vestibule and if you ask them to remove it they will look at you like you are crazy?

What other living person do you know of that has his portrait displayed in every Catholic Church?

Are you not aware that it is a common practice for Catholic churches to display a portrait of the Pope? Even SSPX chapels have a photo of Francis displayed. They've always done this, even though the Popes have been Modernists.

Also, if you look at St. Thomas' number 40 in the link you provided, you'll see that St. Thomas says that the antichrist will say that he is "both God and man." When has Francis ever said that he is "both God and man"?

Angelus · « **Reply #48 on:** August 16, 2023, 11:54:12 AM »

Quote from: Meg on August 16, 2023, 11:24:36 AM

Are you not aware that it is a common practice for Catholic churches to display a portrait of the Pope? Even SSPX chapels have a photo of Francis displayed. They've always done this, even though the Popes have been Modernists.

Yes, Meg. The person that everyone thinks is "the Pope" is displayed in every "temple" (i.e., Church). The Antichrist will not be special in that respect. Because he is presumed to be the Pope (but actually an Antipope), his portrait will also be displayed in every church. What is special about the Antichrist is that he is actually an Antipope and apostate. He is not a true Pope. He is a destroyer of the Church. He will try to destroy it from within.

St. Thomas says, "many from the church will accept him." Accept him as what? As the leader of the Church. Who is the leader of the Church? The presumed Pope. But in Bergoglio's case, he is a non-canonically-elected Antipope. It's just that "many from the Church" [i.e., the Roman Catholic Church] haven't figured that out yet.

The reason they haven't figured this out is that there is a great "religious deception" (Catechism of the Catholic Church, 675). The reason that Catholics fall for this deception is explained in 2 Thessalonians 2. It is because those deceived love sinning more than the Truth. They do not keep the Commandments of God, and so, their understanding is darkened, and they cannot not see the obvious. The simple fix for this is to sincerely repent of all sins and receive the Sacrament of Penance.

OABrownson1876 · « **Reply #49 on:** August 16, 2023, 12:00:42 PM »

+Carol Wojtyla was consecrated a bishop in 1958, and he consecrated +Vigano in 1992. Does anyone on CI know what form was used for the consecration of +Vigano, new or old rite?

Meg · « **Reply #50 on:** August 16, 2023, 12:12:37 PM »

Quote from: Angelus on August 16, 2023, 11:54:12 AM

Yes, Meg. The person that everyone thinks is "the Pope" is displayed in every "temple" (i.e., Church). The Antichrist will not be special in that respect. Because he is presumed to be the Pope (but actually an Antipope), his portrait will also be displayed in every church. What is special about the Antichrist is that he is actually an Antipope and apostate. He is not a true Pope. He is a destroyer of the Church. He will try to destroy it from within.

St. Thomas says, "many from the church will accept him." Accept him as what? As the leader of the Church. Who is the leader of the Church? The presumed Pope. But in Bergoglio's case, he is a non-canonically-elected Antipope. It's just that "many from the Church" [i.e., the Roman Catholic Church] haven't figured that out yet.

The reason they haven't figured this out is that there is a great "religious deception" (Catechism of the Catholic Church, 675). The reason that Catholics fall for this deception is explained in 2 Thessalonians 2. It is because those deceived love sinning more than the Truth. They do not keep the Commandments of God, and so, their understanding is darkened, and they cannot not see the obvious. The simple fix for this is to sincerely repent of all sins and receive the Sacrament of Penance.

Why do you refer to churches [conciliar churches] as "temples"?

Angelus · « **Reply #51 on:** August 16, 2023, 12:13:35 PM »

Quote from: Meg on August 16, 2023, 11:24:36 AM

Also, if you look at St. Thomas' number 40 in the link you provided, you'll see that St. Thomas says that the antichrist will say that he is "both God and man." When has Francis ever said that he is "both God and man"?

Meg, St. Thomas says "And as a sign of this he will sit in the temple." In other words, the mere fact that the Antichrist (the apostate) is SEATED in the Temple is "a sign" that this man thinks he is God. The Antichrist does not submit himself to God's Law. He has his own law. He thinks he is above God. One who thinks his doctrine is superior to God's doctrine, acts "as if he is God."

Now, let's look at what Bergoglio has actually done and said. In the Footnote 351 from Amoris Laetitia, Bergoglio holds that divorced and remarried Catholics (without annulment) may receive Holy Communion. His position amounts to moral relativism. The Church has always taught, following Our Lord, that divorce and remarriage is a mortal sin. The Church has also taught, following St. Paul, that those in a state of mortal sin cannot receive Holy Communion.

Bergoglio contradicts Our Lord and Sacred Scripture and the perennial teaching of the Roman Catholic Church. He thinks his doctrine is superior to God's doctrine. That, Meg, is "showing himself as if he is God," while he "sits in the Temple of God."

Angelus · « **Reply #52 on:** August 16, 2023, 12:23:03 PM »

Quote from: Meg on August 16, 2023, 12:12:37 PM

Why do you refer to churches [conciliar churches] as "temples"?

St. Thomas, following "some" of the Church Fathers interpretation, identified "the Church" with "the temple of God," Meg. St. Thomas says in the paragraph above that that the Antichrist will erect his image/statue/portrait in "every temple" (aka "every church"):

"So as it is written of Gaius Caesar that he wanted to be worshiped while he was still alive, and put statues of himself in every temple, and as Ezekiel says of the king of Tyre, I have said that I am God (Ezek 28:2), so it is quite believable that the Antichrist will act as they did..."

https://aquinas.cc/la/en/~2Thess.C2.L1.n40

Meg · « **Reply #53 on:** August 16, 2023, 12:26:21 PM »

Quote from: Angelus on August 16, 2023, 12:13:35 PM

Meg, St. Thomas says "And as a sign of this he will sit in the temple." In other words, the mere fact that the Antichrist (the apostate) is SEATED in the Temple is "a sign" that this man thinks he is God. The Antichrist does not submit himself to God's Law. He has his own law. He thinks he is above God. One who thinks his doctrine is superior to God's doctrine, acts "as if he is God."

Now, let's look at what Bergoglio has actually done and said. In the Footnote 351 from Amoris Laetitia, Bergoglio holds that divorced and remarried Catholics (without annulment) may receive Holy Communion. His position amounts to moral relativism. The Church has always taught, following Our Lord, that divorce and remarriage is a mortal sin. The Church has also taught, following St. Paul, that those in a state of mortal sin cannot receive Holy Communion.

Bergoglio contradicts Our Lord and Sacred Scripture and the perennial teaching of the Roman Catholic Church. He thinks his doctrine is superior to God's doctrine. That, Meg, is "showing himself as if he is God," while he "sits in the Temple of God."

Except that Francis has not said that he is both God and Man, as St. Thomas said the Antichrist would say. Angelus, Francis is a dufus Modernist, and not a particularly bright one. You give him too much credit by thinking that he is THE Antichrist.

All of the Modernist popes have wanted to change the Church into a relativistic church, and they have worked tirelessly to this end, Angelus. All of the Modernist popes have contradicted the True teachings of the Church. It's what they do.

Meg · « **Reply #54 on:** August 16, 2023, 12:29:06 PM »

Quote from: Angelus on August 16, 2023, 12:23:03 PM

St. Thomas, following "some" of the Church Fathers interpretation, identified "the Church" with "the temple of God," Meg. St. Thomas says in the paragraph above that that the Antichrist will erect his image/statue/portrait in "every temple" (aka "every church"):

"So as it is written of Gaius Caesar that he wanted to be worshiped while he was still alive, and put statues of himself in every temple, and as Ezekiel says of the king of Tyre, I have said that I am God (Ezek 28:2), so it is quite believable that the Antichrist will act as they did..."

https://aquinas.cc/la/en/~2Thess.C2.L1.n40

Angelus, it is common to put a photo or portrait of the Pope in Catholic churches, and even the conciliar church does this. This in itself does not demonstrate that the Pope is the Antichrist, Angelus.

Angelus, I still think that it is odd that you keep referring to conciliar churches as "Temples."

Angelus · « **Reply #55 on:** August 16, 2023, 01:03:36 PM »

Quote from: Meg on August 16, 2023, 12:26:21 PM

Except that Francis has not said that he is both God and Man, as St. Thomas said the Antichrist would say. Angelus, Francis is a dufus Modernist, and not a particularly bright one. You give him too much credit by thinking that he is THE Antichrist.

All of the Modernist popes have wanted to change the Church into a relativistic church, and they have worked tirelessly to this end, Angelus. All of the Modernist popes have contradicted the True teachings of the Church. It's what they do.

Meg, your reading of St. Thomas is slavishly literal. St. Paul said the Antichrist will show/reveal "himself as if he were God." Do you see those words "as if he were?" They mean something other than simply saying he will declare that he is God. You are not reading these quotes from St. Thomas carefully and properly.

Now, you make some strong statements without any references to the teaching of the Catholic Church. Please prove what you mean when you say, "Francis is a dufus Modernist, and not a particularly bright one." And tell me how you, a mere layperson, has the right to say such things.

You are calling the guy, who you think is "the Pope" of the Roman Catholic Church, a "Modernist." Do you even know what that word means? Please explain to me how you are not a blasphemer (Second Commandment) or failing to honor the highest authority in the Church, the Holy Father (Fourth Commandment). Modernism is the synthesis of all heresies. You are calling the person you believe to be "the Holy Father," the "Vicar of Christ," a horrible heretic, and a "dufus."

Are you really Catholic, Meg? Please explain the apparent contradiction.

P.S. I'll give you some help. https://aquinas.cc/la/en/~ST.II-II.Q33.A4

Meg · « **Reply #56 on:** August 16, 2023, 01:41:24 PM »

Quote from: Angelus on August 16, 2023, 01:03:36 PM

You are calling the guy, who you think is "the Pope" of the Roman Catholic Church, a "Modernist." Do you even know what that word means? Please explain to me how you are not a blasphemer (Second Commandment) or failing to honor the highest authority in the Church, the Holy Father (Fourth Commandment). Modernism is the synthesis of all heresies. You are calling the person you believe to be "the Holy Father," the "Vicar of Christ," a horrible heretic, and a "dufus."

Are you really Catholic, Meg? Please explain the apparent contradiction.

P.S. I'll give you some help. https://aquinas.cc/la/en/~ST.II-II.Q33.A4

Is it "dufus" or "Modernist" that you have trouble with? Or both? So we are not allowed to refer to a Modernist pope as a Modernist or a dufus. Huh.

Angelus, if you want to disagree with the "dufus" designation, alright. But Archbishop Lefebvre referred to the Modernist Popes as Modernists. I think I'm in good company there. And, in case you were wondering, Archbishop Lefebvre was a Catholic. Have you ever heard of Archbishop Lefebvre?

The point being, do you really think that someone like Francis is the Son of Satan? Don't you think that Francis would be a little more intelligent, if that were the case?

Meg · « **Reply #57 on:** August 16, 2023, 01:50:31 PM »

Quote from: Angelus on August 16, 2023, 01:03:36 PM

Meg, your reading of St. Thomas is slavishly literal. St. Paul said the Antichrist will show/reveal "himself as if he were God." Do you see those words "as if he were?" They mean something other than simply saying he will declare that he is God. You are not reading these quotes from St. Thomas carefully and properly.

P.S. I'll give you some help. https://aquinas.cc/la/en/~ST.II-II.Q33.A4

Have you looked at number 40 on the site that you linked to? Number 40 states, partly:

"so that when he sits in the Temple of God, showing himself as if he were God, he gives a sign of this wrongdoing" [...] "so it is quite believable that the Antichrist will act as they did, saying that he is both God and Man."

Angelus · « **Reply #58 on:** August 16, 2023, 02:06:08 PM »

Quote from: Meg on August 16, 2023, 01:41:24 PM

Is it "dufus" or "Modernist" that you have trouble with? Or both? So we are not allowed to refer to a Modernist pope as a Modernist or a dufus. Huh.

Angelus, if you want to disagree with the "dufus" designation, alright. But Archbishop Lefebvre referred to the Modernist Popes as Modernists. I think I'm in good company there. And, in case you were wondering, Archbishop Lefebvre was a Catholic. Have you ever heard of Archbishop Lefebvre?

The point being, do you really think that someone like Francis is the Son of Satan? Don't you think that Francis would be a little more intelligent, if that were the case?

Meg, sorry, no. If Archbishop Lefebvre said that a circle is really a square, would you believe him? And would you think you can say the same thing?

You can call a person who deceptively calls himself "the Pope," a "Modernist," but a Modernist cannot be the true, authoritative Pope. Just like a circle cannot be a square. This is Catholic 101, Meg.

Bergoglio is, without a doubt, not a real Pope, and he is possessed by Satan. He is extremely intelligent, capable and powerful. In fact, a number of billionaires and most of the world's leaders visit him and want his approval. He is invited to give speeches to the UN. Whenever he speaks, the news media covers it in all languages. His Synod is about to completely invert Church teaching and you call him a "dufus."

Meg · « **Reply #59 on:** August 16, 2023, 02:42:34 PM »

Quote from: Angelus on August 16, 2023, 02:06:08 PM

Meg, sorry, no. If Archbishop Lefebvre said that a circle is really a square, would you believe him? And would you think you can say the same thing?

This isn't about a circle really being a square. I believe the same as Archbishop Lefebvre, who was treated very badly by the Modernist Popes, specifically JP2. He called them Modernists. And I'll take his word over yours.

Traditionalists aren't treated any better by the Modernist pope now, than they were when Archbishop Lefebvre was alive. The Modernists still hate the Old Mass and Tradition. It's been that way for awhile now.

Author Topic: +Vigano can Prove Sede Vacante? (Read 12001 times)

Meg

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