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Author Topic: +Vigano can Prove Sede Vacante?  (Read 11844 times)

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Offline SeanJohnson

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+Vigano can Prove Sede Vacante?
« on: August 14, 2023, 02:16:19 PM »
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    • Archbishop Viganò suggests a cardinal has proof Francis’ election was corrupt, and his ‘pontificate’ null
    With Archbishop Viganò, all Catholics should request from that cardinal that he make his knowledge public, since that particular papal election has affected the Catholic Church in a very grave manner, putting many souls at potential risk.
    Featured Image
    Archbishop Carlo Maria ViganóAbp. Carlo Maria Viagnó


    Maike
    Hickson

    (LifeSiteNews) – There is a new development regarding the discussion as to whether or not Pope Francis’s papal election at the March 2013 Conclave was valid. Archbishop Carlo Maria Viganò has claimed that there exists a cardinal who participated in that Conclave and who told friends “that he has witnessed facts that render the election of Jorge Mario null and void.”

    Speaking to Catholic Family News editor Matt Gaspers, the Italian prelate added that this particular cardinal does not reveal to make these facts “publicly so as not to break the Pontifical secret: the secret that he has already broken by talking about it with those who can do nothing, which forces His Eminence into silence before the Church.” In his view, these facts might render it possible that the Church’s “Pastors could perhaps settle the question” of the 2013 papal election.

    This is a stunning report: so far, no cardinal who participated in the 2013 Conclave has come out making such a statement, namely that there were events at the Conclave that might render that particular papal election invalid.

    Already in 2022, Viganò expressed his doubts about the validity of the 2013 Conclave and requested an “investigation” of that Conclave.

    With Archbishop Viganò, all Catholics should request from that cardinal that he make his knowledge public, since that particular papal election has affected the Catholic Church in a very grave manner, putting many souls at potential risk.

    So far, multiple reports have given indications that there were schemes and organized meetings in order to promote Jorge Bergoglio’s election at the time.

    Most prominently, a Vatican reporter close to Pope Francis, Gerard O’Connell, published in 2019 a book about the 2013 Conclave, in which he reveals that there took place on March 11, 2013 – one day ahead of the first day of the Conclave – a meeting of progressivist cardinals discussing a possible candidate. Among these cardinals were Cardinals Godfried Danneels, Walter Kasper, Cormac Murphy-O’Connor, and Karl Lehmann, all members of the so-called “Sankt Gallen Group.”

    Cardinal Kasper told LifeSite at the time that he did, indeed participate at that meeting, but denied that there was anything unethical about that meeting.

    He told LifeSite in 2019 that “it is really simply reasonable and normal – yes, it is even absolutely necessary for the forming of a personal judgment and conscience – that cardinals meet in order to reflect in a small circle (when all of them are together, there are 180-200, then everybody can only speak one time), and to weigh things and to receive information (not everybody knows each other) and then to form together a non-binding opinion.”

    Speaking specifically about the March 11 meeting, Kasper added: “At our meeting, afterwards no one was bound and fixed; each could also continue his own reflection, and no one was later asked whether and how he voted.” But he implied that the results of that meeting were further shared with other cardinals when he expounded: “That one afterwards speaks with someone who was not present that evening [at the meeting] and informs him, cannot be forbidden either. That has nothing to do with solicitation. When additionally someone from that group afterwards thinks for himself privately and then speaks about how many [votes] there roughly would be, then that is his personal opinion which binds no one.”

    Another important hint about somewhat irregular happenings in preparation for the 2013 Conclave came from another book, published in 2017. Catherine Pepinster, the former editor-in-chief of the British Catholic weekly, The Tablet, claims in The Keys and the Kingdom: The British and the Papacy from John Paul II to Francis that the British Foreign Office may have played an important role in the 2013 papal election that resulted in Pope Francis’ election, especially by way of organizing another key meeting ahead of the Conclave that was to promote the name of Bergoglio.

    Based on many interviews with key figures such as Cardinal Cormac Murphy-O’Connor and the British Ambassador to the Holy See, Nigel Baker, she claims that the U.K. “played a crucial role in the election of the Argentinian destined to shake up the Catholic Church.”

    Pepinster recounts in her book how the British government, through the person of the British ambassador to the Holy See, was instrumental in setting up a March 7 meeting at the ambassador’s residence at the Palazzo Pallavincini where key cardinals – especially Murphy-O’Connor – networked with lesser-known cardinals to promote Cardinal Jorge Bergoglio for pope.

    Calling Bergoglio’s election a “very British coup,” Pepinster’s work suggests that a secular power was involved in the election of a pope. Here, she specifically mentions Cardinal Murphy-O’Connor.

    “The British influence on the conclave was against all the odds, yet it happened,” Pepinster stated. “That was down to one of the most capable cardinals I’ve ever met – Cormac Murphy-O’Connor – playing the most powerful non-voting role in the choosing of a pope I’ve ever known.”

    Pope Francis seemed to have been aware of this British cardinal’s role in his election. States The Guardian‘s obituary of this prelate in 2017: “A few months after his election, the former Cardinal Jorge Mario Bergoglio was apparently lightheartedly to credit Murphy-O’Connor, when the two met at a papal audience. The pope pointed to his old friend and said, ‘You’re to blame!’”

    The now-disgraced former cardinal, Theodore McCarrick, also described how certain influencers tried to get Bergoglio elected. LifeSite’s contributor Liz Yore summed up his own testimony as he presented it in October of 2013, only months after Bergoglio’s election:

    Quote
    McCarrick told the audience that before the cardinal electors “went into the general conversations,” he was approached by “a very interesting and influential Italian gentleman.” The influential Italian visited McCarrick at the seminary where McCarrick was staying in Rome. This “very brilliant man, very influential man in Rome” said, “What about Bergoglio? Does he have a chance?” McCarrick said he was surprised at the question, and replied, “I don’t think so because no one’s mentioned his name.” The man said, referring to Bergoglio, “He could do it, you know, reform the church.”

    Although McCarrick was beyond the age to vote in the 2013 conclave, he spoke at the General Congregation proceedings before the conclave. As he explained in his Villanova talk, he seized the opportunity to lobby for a Latin American Pope, urging his fellow Cardinal electors that he hoped that whoever was elected pope would be someone who, if not himself a Latin American, would “have a very strong interest in Latin America because half the Church is there . . . that’s where the people are.”

    None of these hints alone suffice to make a case in this very crucial matter, though.

    Bishop Athanasius Schneider, who is very much respected among many faithful Catholics, holds that Pope Francis’s papacy is a valid one. Writing in 2020 (while Pope Benedict XVI was still alive), the Kazakh bishop of German descent insisted:

    Quote
    Declaring Pope Francis to be an invalid pope, either because of his heresies or because of an invalid election (for reasons of alleged violations of the Conclave norms or for the reason that Pope Benedict XVI is still the pope because of his invalid renunciation) are desperate and subjectively taken actions aimed at remedying the current unprecedented crisis of the papacy. They are purely human and betray a spiritual myopia. All such endeavors are ultimately a dead end, a cul-de-sac. Such solutions reveal an implicit Pelagian approach to resolving a problem with human means; a problem, indeed, which cannot be resolved by human efforts, but which requires a divine intervention.

    One need only examine similar cases of the deposition of a pope or declaration of the invalidity of his election in Church history to see that they provoked rivaling and combatting claimants to the papal office.

    So caution and care is requested – and a strong involvement on the part of the Church’s hierarchy. Lay people cannot come to conclusions just by themselves, as it seems.

    That is where the testimony of that one cardinal who might be holding back his knowledge of facts should come out and reveal these facts to the Catholic faithful.

    Archbishop Viganò himself regrets that this cardinal is not speaking up, out of a sense of obedience toward the law of secrecy. He sees a false legalism here at work: “we are not talking about the Seal of Confession,” the prelate writes in his new interview, “but rather about matters that have reason to be reserved until this is to the detriment of the institution that brought them into force; otherwise we find ourselves like the Pharisees of the Gospel, who asked Our Lord if it was lawful to pull a donkey out of the well on the Sabbath day.”

    It seems that Archbishop Viganò, however, has not spoken directly to this cardinal. He told Matt Gaspers that “if these confidences are true, I dare not think of the moral travail of those who are preparing to take the secret to the grave, when they would have had the opportunity of unmasking the intrigues and plots of the Saint Gallen Mafia.”

    “If they are not true,” he continues, “it would not make sense to talk about it even with the most trusted people (who, however, must have told others, since the news has leaked).”

    LifeSite has reached out to Archbishop Viganò and to two respected cardinals for comment and shall update this report should we hear back from them.


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    Offline Angelus

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    Re: +Vigano can Prove Sede Vacante?
    « Reply #1 on: August 14, 2023, 03:01:51 PM »
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    • The problem with the "corrupt Cardinal" angle is that the information is not objective. 

    Yes, Bergoglio's election was null and void. Yes, the Cardinals did all kinds of things that are explicitly illegal according to Universi Dominici Gregis. But, to prove that corruption will be very hard to do. The information is subjective.

    However, that, in the same docuмent governing papal elections, anyone with eyes can read that the Pope must be dead, eulogized and buried BEFORE a new election can be held is an objective fact. Anyone can understand that Benedict was not dead on March 13, 2013 and that UDG requires that he be dead before a valid election can be held.

    The problem is that no one wants to be the one to say that "the Emperor has no clothes." They are scared to ruin their reputation. Too much human respect. This fear is built into human nature, as Hans Christian Anderson explains:

    https://americanliterature.com/author/hans-christian-andersen/short-story/the-emperors-new-clothes
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: +Vigano can Prove Sede Vacante?
    « Reply #2 on: August 14, 2023, 03:14:47 PM »
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    • Quote from: Angelus on August 14, 2023, 03:01:51 PM
    However, that, in the same docuмent governing papal elections, anyone with eyes can read that the Pope must be dead, eulogized and buried BEFORE a new election can be held is an objective fact. Anyone can understand that Benedict was not dead on March 13, 2013 and that UDG requires that he be dead before a valid election can be held.

    They don't seem too worried about that argument.

    What they are going to try and rebut is this:

    https://canonlawmadeeasy.com/2015/09/10/why-are-some-suggesting-that-francis-election-was-invalid/ 
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    Offline Angelus

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    Re: +Vigano can Prove Sede Vacante?
    « Reply #3 on: August 14, 2023, 03:23:00 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on August 14, 2023, 03:14:47 PM
    They don't seem too worried about that argument.

    What they are going to try and rebut is this:

    https://canonlawmadeeasy.com/2015/09/10/why-are-some-suggesting-that-francis-election-was-invalid/

    Yes, that is what everyone will start arguing about. It will be just like the "munus/ministerium" thing. An intentional distraction away for THE-ELEPHANT-IN-THE-ROOM. But it is a tried and true technique. It has been working perfectly for over 10 years. And it will continue to work deceiving the herd animals (i.e., sheep) who want someone else to tell them what to think.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: +Vigano can Prove Sede Vacante?
    « Reply #4 on: August 14, 2023, 04:06:22 PM »
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    • Quote from: Angelus on August 14, 2023, 03:01:51 PM
    However, that, in the same docuмent governing papal elections, anyone with eyes can read that the Pope must be dead, eulogized and buried BEFORE a new election can be held is an objective fact. Anyone can understand that Benedict was not dead on March 13, 2013 and that UDG requires that he be dead before a valid election can be held.

    :facepalm:  I can't believe that you're still pushing this nonsense.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: +Vigano can Prove Sede Vacante?
    « Reply #5 on: August 14, 2023, 04:07:48 PM »
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    • ... as if declaring Bergoglio illegitimate solves even 1% of the problem with the Conciliar Church as a whole.  Sure, it would eliminate Amoris Laetitia and Traditionis Custodes ... but the rest of the V2 apostasy would remain.
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    Offline Yeti

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    Re: +Vigano can Prove Sede Vacante?
    « Reply #6 on: August 14, 2023, 04:15:15 PM »
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    • Wake me up when Vigano reveals the name of this cardinal. :sleep:
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    Offline Angelus

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    Re: +Vigano can Prove Sede Vacante?
    « Reply #7 on: August 14, 2023, 04:22:32 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on August 14, 2023, 04:07:48 PM
    ... as if declaring Bergoglio illegitimate solves even 1% of the problem with the Conciliar Church as a whole.  Sure, it would eliminate Amoris Laetitia and Traditionis Custodes ... but the rest of the V2 apostasy would remain.

    There is no human solution to the problem in the Church, Ladislaus. But, on a personal level, recognizing that Bergoglio is the guy that the prophecies are talking about might get an individual to focus on preparing his soul for the Second Coming instead of being obsessed with "earthly matters." And if the person thinks he is already prepared, then he should help those around him to prepare their souls for Our Lord's Presence. 

    As St. Paul says, the "apostasy" is THE sign to look for. It is here. The bad fruit from the tree planted in the 1960s is completely ripe now. Great spiritual trials are immediately ahead, coming in the next few years. Many souls will be lost for lack of preparation, lack of seeing the true enemy for who he is and compromising with his agenda. And even "the elect" will be tempted to do this, if they are not aware of who the deceiver is. Bergoglio is that deceiver.

    That is why we need to focus on him. The Bible tells us to focus on him.
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: +Vigano can Prove Sede Vacante?
    « Reply #8 on: August 14, 2023, 04:31:11 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on August 14, 2023, 04:07:48 PM
    ... as if declaring Bergoglio illegitimate solves even 1% of the problem with the Conciliar Church as a whole.  Sure, it would eliminate Amoris Laetitia and Traditionis Custodes ... but the rest of the V2 apostasy would remain.

    Granted.  But it might also cause a deeper/further look backwards (e.g., Vigano said the Francis matter put him in mind of the Siri/Roncalli issue of 1958).
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    Offline Yeti

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    Re: +Vigano can Prove Sede Vacante?
    « Reply #9 on: August 14, 2023, 04:35:42 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on August 14, 2023, 04:07:48 PM
    ... as if declaring Bergoglio illegitimate solves even 1% of the problem with the Conciliar Church as a whole.  Sure, it would eliminate Amoris Laetitia and Traditionis Custodes ... but the rest of the V2 apostasy would remain.
    .

    Oh yeah, whoever thinks the problem is only with Bergoglio is completely missing the big picture.
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: +Vigano can Prove Sede Vacante?
    « Reply #10 on: August 14, 2023, 04:37:16 PM »
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    • Quote from: Yeti on August 14, 2023, 04:35:42 PM
    .

    Oh yeah, whoever thinks the problem is only with Bergoglio is completely missing the big picture.

    Well said. 
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Angelus

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    Re: +Vigano can Prove Sede Vacante?
    « Reply #11 on: August 14, 2023, 04:51:08 PM »
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    • Quote from: Yeti on August 14, 2023, 04:35:42 PM
    .

    Oh yeah, whoever thinks the problem is only with Bergoglio is completely missing the big picture.

    Note well: A particular man, that wicked one, is being referred to by St. Paul. Is St. Paul missing "the big picture," Yeti? Maybe you can explain the big picture to us?


    3 Let no man deceive you by any means, for unless there come a revolt first, and the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition, 4 Who opposeth, and is lifted up above all that is called God, or that is worshipped, so that he sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself as if he were God. 5 Remember you not, that when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
    6 And now you know what withholdeth, that he may be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of iniquity already worketh; only that he who now holdeth, do hold, until he be taken out of the way. 8 And then that wicked one shall be revealed whom the Lord Jesus shall kill with the spirit of his mouth; and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming, him, 9 Whose coming is according to the working of Satan, in all power, and signs, and lying wonders, 10 And in all seduction of iniquity to them that perish; because they receive not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. Therefore God shall send them the operation of error, to believe lying: 11 That all may be judged who have not believed the truth, but have consented to iniquity.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: +Vigano can Prove Sede Vacante?
    « Reply #12 on: August 14, 2023, 04:53:14 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on August 14, 2023, 04:31:11 PM
    Granted.  But it might also cause a deeper/further look backwards (e.g., Vigano said the Francis matter put him in mind of the Siri/Roncalli issue of 1958).

    Possibly.  There are some, though, who might become complacent thinking "problem solved" and then uphold Ratzinger as the new litmus test for orthodoxy.
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: +Vigano can Prove Sede Vacante?
    « Reply #13 on: August 14, 2023, 05:04:40 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on August 14, 2023, 04:53:14 PM
    Possibly.  There are some, though, who might become complacent thinking "problem solved" and then uphold Ratzinger as the new litmus test for orthodoxy.

    The (completely rash) thought occurred to me that that might even be a deliberate strategy of Francis’s handlers):

    By getting rid of Francis, but going no further back, the suggestion is that there’s nothing to worry about in his predecessors (aren’t three of them “saints?!”), and the revolution is therefore strengthened and solidified.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: +Vigano can Prove Sede Vacante?
    « Reply #14 on: August 14, 2023, 05:12:27 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on August 14, 2023, 05:04:40 PM
    The (completely rash) thought occurred to me that that might even be a deliberate strategy of Francis’s handlers):

    By getting rid of Francis, but going no further back, the suggestion is that there’s nothing to worry about in his predecessors (aren’t three of them “saints?!”), and the revolution is therefore strengthened and solidified.

    Yes, this has always rubbed me the wrong way about Bennyvacantism in general.  They move the "bar" in terms of what orthodoxy means, resetting it to land on Ratzinger.  That's actually kindof how the Hegelian dialectic is deigned to operate, where you push to the opposite extreme, and then you swing back toward the middle, the "synthesis" part.  Thesis is Catholicism, Antithesis is Bergoglio, and the Synthesis is Ratzinger (who was undoubtedly a big fan of Hegel).  In line with this, Ratzinger had been floating the idea of a Hybrid Rite of Mass, between the Tridentine Mass and the NOM.
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