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Author Topic: +Vigano Calls Francis "Heretical Tyrant on the Chair"  (Read 3577 times)

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Offline Incredulous

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Re: +Vigano Calls Francis "Heretical Tyrant on the Chair"
« Reply #15 on: January 19, 2023, 08:11:59 PM »
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  • "If you take the Montinian missal, you will not find explicit heresies in it; but if you compare it with the traditional missal, you will find that the omission of so many prayers composed in defense of revealed Truth was more than enough to make the reformed Mass acceptable even to Lutherans, as they themselves admitted after the promulgation of that fatal and equivocal rite. To confirm this, even the feasts of the Chair of St. Peter in Rome and Antioch have been combined into one, in the name of that cancel culture that the modernist sect adopted in the ecclesiastical sphere well before the woke left appropriated it in the civil sphere."


                     62' Missal


                                                               




    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi

    Offline Donachie

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    Re: +Vigano Calls Francis "Heretical Tyrant on the Chair"
    « Reply #16 on: January 19, 2023, 10:11:25 PM »
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  • 1962 was another one of those sort of doo wop and spy movie years.


    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: +Vigano Calls Francis "Heretical Tyrant on the Chair"
    « Reply #17 on: January 19, 2023, 10:26:13 PM »
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  • "If you take the Montinian missal, you will not find explicit heresies in it; but if you compare it with the traditional missal, you will find that the omission of so many prayers composed in defense of revealed Truth was more than enough to make the reformed Mass acceptable even to Lutherans, as they themselves admitted after the promulgation of that fatal and equivocal rite. To confirm this, even the feasts of the Chair of St. Peter in Rome and Antioch have been combined into one, in the name of that cancel culture that the modernist sect adopted in the ecclesiastical sphere well before the woke left appropriated it in the civil sphere."

    ^^^THIS

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: +Vigano Calls Francis "Heretical Tyrant on the Chair"
    « Reply #18 on: January 20, 2023, 10:13:15 AM »
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  • That has nothing to do with the issue at hand, where you believe in the heresy that the Magisterium of the Church and the Public Worship of the Church can become corrupt, harmful to souls, offensive to God.  However you want to explain it, these things did not emanate from the legitimate papal authority that was freely exercised.

    You will be judged by God for attempting to spread your blasphemy and heresy against the Catholic Church.

    . . . 

    You have show yourself to be of incredibly bad will against Holy Mother Church, whether out of arrogance or due to some psychological problem, throwing the Church under the proverbial bus so you can be comforted by the thought of this tyrannical heretic walking around in Rome wearing a white cassock being the pope.  To save Bergoglio, you're willing to sacrifice the Church.

    Archbishop Lefebvre clearly taught that this degree of destruction is not possible given the guidance of the Holy Spirit over the papacy; he merely refrained from deciding on what the explanation for it was, maintaining that SVism is in fact a possibility.  While claiming to be most faithful to the Archbishop, you reject his position on the matter also.

    Lad,

    Those are incredibly strong words. You generally show support for Vigano, so let me ask you: how is Sean's position, which according to you blasphemes and commits heresy regarding the Church, different from Vigano's?

    I asked you in earlier to identify anywhere in Vigano's writings where he goes into the issue of a papal "vacancy" or, now I ask a bit differently, show us where he even entertains the necessity of considering Francis an antipope or non-pope, an issue which for you is essential to retaining the integrity of "Holy Mother Church"? I don't think you'll find it. 

    In fact, Vigano repeatedly talks of "Pope Bergolio" and recognizes the authority of the Conciliar hierarchy, I guess without (apparently) besmirching and prostituting Holy Mother Church as you say Sean does. Here's just a sample:

    Quote
    In the face of the desolation of these terrible times, in the face of the apostasy of the Hierarchy and the agony of the ecclesial body, we cannot be truly pessimistic or yield to despair or resignation.


    We are with Saint John and the Sorrowful Virgin at the foot of a Cross on which the new High Priests spit, against which a new Sanhedrin curses and swears. On the other hand, we recall that the leaders of the priestly class were the first ones who wanted to put Our Lord to death, and so it is not surprising that in the moment of the Passion of the Church it is precisely they who mock what the blindness of their soul no longer understands.

    https://www.catholicity.com/vigano/2021-07-14.html

    As Our Lord recognized the legitimate authority of the Pharisees in the "seat of Moses" while calling them "whited sepulchers" who made "void the word of God," so Vigano does the Conciliar hierarchy while decrying its heresies and apostasy. And Sean does the same.

    Is Vigano besmirching Holy Mother Church as Sean does? If not, why not?

    This is a continuing, bizarre theme with you - attacking those who identify with an R & R position as Old Catholics, etc. - that keeps bumping into contradiction after contradiction.





     

    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline Yeti

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    Re: +Vigano Calls Francis "Heretical Tyrant on the Chair"
    « Reply #19 on: January 20, 2023, 10:26:20 AM »
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  • I asked you in earlier to identify anywhere in Vigano's writings where he goes into the issue of a papal "vacancy" or, now I ask a bit differently, show us where he even entertains the necessity of considering Francis an antipope or non-pope, an issue which for you is essential to retaining the integrity of "Holy Mother Church"? I don't think you'll find it.

    In fact, Vigano repeatedly talks of "Pope Bergolio" and recognizes the authority of the Conciliar hierarchy, I guess without (apparently) besmirching and prostituting Holy Mother Church as you say Sean does. Here's just a sample:

    .

    Vigano has never promoted or even espoused sedevacantism.


    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: +Vigano Calls Francis "Heretical Tyrant on the Chair"
    « Reply #20 on: January 20, 2023, 10:40:32 AM »
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  • .

    Vigano has never promoted or even espoused sedevacantism.

    Correct. 
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: +Vigano Calls Francis "Heretical Tyrant on the Chair"
    « Reply #21 on: January 20, 2023, 10:57:14 AM »
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  • Tell that to Vigano. He doesn't bother with the question. He sees the man sitting on the throne; he sees he's evil; and he hopes for the end of the scourge. Comb through his abundant writings and see if you can find him bothering with the question whether Bergolio sitting "on the throne" is truly pope or not, and then come back and quote it for us.





    Sorry, he's not distracted with your question of "vacancy." He's dealing with a heretic "on the throne" and an apostate leadership and hierarchy.
    He has eyes; he can see; and he's not distracted on academic questions of whether their title is legal when their possession is undeniable, and he wants his land and country back. Period.

    DR



    He will *never* get his land nor his country back *until* he settles the question. There is no authority above the pope, period. He can rant and rave all he wants, but as long as he considers that communist in white as a true pope, he has absolutely no power to do anything.
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: +Vigano Calls Francis "Heretical Tyrant on the Chair"
    « Reply #22 on: January 20, 2023, 11:13:43 AM »
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  • He can rant and rave all he wants, but as long as he considers that communist in white as a true pope, he has absolutely no power to do anything.

    You are correct that as long as Archbishop Vigano recognizes Jorge Bergoglio as a true pope he cannot go any further because a true pope has supreme jurisdiction over all ecclesiastical matters.


    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: +Vigano Calls Francis "Heretical Tyrant on the Chair"
    « Reply #23 on: January 20, 2023, 11:23:53 AM »
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  • He will *never* get his land nor his country back *until* he settles the question. There is no authority above the pope, period. He can rant and rave all he wants, but as long as he considers that communist in white as a true pope, he has absolutely no power to do anything.
    He should also get consecrated so he is actually a certainly true Bishop.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: +Vigano Calls Francis "Heretical Tyrant on the Chair"
    « Reply #24 on: January 20, 2023, 11:27:09 AM »
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  • He will *never* get his land nor his country back *until* he settles the question. There is no authority above the pope, period. He can rant and rave all he wants, but as long as he considers that communist in white as a true pope, he has absolutely no power to do anything.

    He's never said he's the true pope, but never said he's not.  He's adopting the +Lefebvre attitude of letting the "prelates of the Church" make the final determination.

    He clearly has serious doubts, calls him a heretical tyrant, has never called him "Pope" or even "Francis" but always just Bergoglio.  He's just hesitating because he doesn't feel he has the authority to do anything about it.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: +Vigano Calls Francis "Heretical Tyrant on the Chair"
    « Reply #25 on: January 20, 2023, 11:28:24 AM »
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  • You are correct that as long as Archbishop Vigano recognizes Jorge Bergoglio as a true pope he cannot go any further because a true pope has supreme jurisdiction over all ecclesiastical matters.

    Find where +Vigano has ever affirmed that Bergoglio is the true pope.  In fact, find once (since his conversion to Tradition of course) where he has ever called Bergoglio "Pope" or "Francs" or anything other than Bergoglio.  I think he may have used "Francis" exactly once, but it was in a derogatory way.


    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: +Vigano Calls Francis "Heretical Tyrant on the Chair"
    « Reply #26 on: January 20, 2023, 11:30:37 AM »
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  • Correct.

    But equally correct is that he's never rejected it either.  I've not read a single affirmation from him that he thinks Bergoglio IS the true pope.  He's called for an investigation, believes the "prelates of the Church" have to make the determination, etc. ... but he clearly has serious doubts about Bergoglio, but is just prescinding from making some kind of statement to that effect, which he seems to believe is not within his rights to do.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: +Vigano Calls Francis "Heretical Tyrant on the Chair"
    « Reply #27 on: January 20, 2023, 11:33:41 AM »
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  • Not everybody goes from Traditionalist to sedevacantist in one day, and the derision from the arrogant dogmatic SVs here because he hasn't declared the See vacant is entirely uncalled for.

    +Lefebvre also never declared the See vacant, for the same reason, that he "preferred to wait" (his words), and I don't see anywhere near the same derision for him as some here have consistently shown for +Vigano.  +Vigano is clearly in "prefer to wait" mode.

    Perhaps encouragenemt and support would do much more to persuade him to come out as an SV than the constant derision and contempt he gets.

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: +Vigano Calls Francis "Heretical Tyrant on the Chair"
    « Reply #28 on: January 20, 2023, 11:47:39 AM »
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  • Find where +Vigano has ever affirmed that Bergoglio is the true pope.  In fact, find once (since his conversion to Tradition of course) where he has ever called Bergoglio "Pope" or "Francs" or anything other than Bergoglio.  I think he may have used "Francis" exactly once, but it was in a derogatory way.

    I know for a fact that he has called him "Pope Bergolio," without putting the pope in quotation marks. He has also called him Francis, much more than once, and probably pope Francis, but that has to be checked. 

    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: +Vigano Calls Francis "Heretical Tyrant on the Chair"
    « Reply #29 on: January 20, 2023, 11:50:30 AM »
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  • But equally correct is that he's never rejected it either.  I've not read a single affirmation from him that he thinks Bergoglio IS the true pope.  He's called for an investigation, believes the "prelates of the Church" have to make the determination, etc. ... but he clearly has serious doubts about Bergoglio, but is just prescinding from making some kind of statement to that effect, which he seems to believe is not within his rights to do.

    He clearly does not think determining Bergolio's status is necessary to retain the "purity of Holy Mother Church" or whatever iteration of that concept that you express.
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.