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Author Topic: +Vigano Arrives at Integral Traditionalism  (Read 3963 times)

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Offline SeanJohnson

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Re: +Vigano Arrives at Integral Traditionalism
« Reply #30 on: June 24, 2021, 08:57:07 AM »
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    • Quote from: ByzCat3000 on June 24, 2021, 08:48:54 AM
    Why do you believe the SSPX would be so much more likely to continue to accept Francis than all the others?
    Because only Francis can give them a deal, while backing Vigano imperils that hope.
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    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: +Vigano Arrives at Integral Traditionalism
    « Reply #31 on: June 24, 2021, 08:59:27 AM »
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    • Quote from: ByzCat3000 on June 24, 2021, 08:48:54 AM
    Why do you believe the SSPX would be so much more likely to continue to accept Francis than all the others?

    As Sean noted, we have Resistance, Indult types, and even sedevacantists ... pretty much every flavor of Traditional Catholic ... with the exception of the SSPX.  I believe that the SSPX holds most closely the position of +Schneider, that Vatican II just needs a handful of corrections.  +Fellay said it was 95% good.  So to get behind +Vigano would be to repudiate that entirely and basically admit that the Resistance is right, something that they'll never do.
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    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: +Vigano Arrives at Integral Traditionalism
    « Reply #32 on: June 24, 2021, 08:59:59 AM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on June 24, 2021, 08:57:07 AM
    Because only Francis can give them a deal, while backing Vigano imperils that hope.

    That too.
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    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: +Vigano Arrives at Integral Traditionalism
    « Reply #33 on: June 24, 2021, 09:34:29 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on June 24, 2021, 08:59:27 AM
    As Sean noted, we have Resistance, Indult types, and even sedevacantists ... pretty much every flavor of Traditional Catholic ... with the exception of the SSPX.  I believe that the SSPX holds most closely the position of +Schneider, that Vatican II just needs a handful of corrections.  +Fellay said it was 95% good.  So to get behind +Vigano would be to repudiate that entirely and basically admit that the Resistance is right, something that they'll never do.
    But wouldn't the Indult also hold this by definition? The same position as Schneider?
    TBH I might be the odd man out here, but I support both Schneider and Vigano personally.  I try not to be a perfectionist about these things when it comes to the few bishops who are actually trying, even if they may be wrong. I also won't pretend to know with 100% certainty who exactly is right on the nuanced and detailed theological questions.
    What I do know though, with absolute certainty, is that that which is being sold by Francis  and the vast majority of the hierarchy is not right
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: +Vigano Arrives at Integral Traditionalism
    « Reply #34 on: June 24, 2021, 09:40:59 AM »
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    • Quote from: ByzCat3000 on June 24, 2021, 09:34:29 AM
    But wouldn't the Indult also hold this by definition? The same position as Schneider?
    TBH I might be the odd man out here, but I support both Schneider and Vigano personally.  I try not to be a perfectionist about these things when it comes to the few bishops who are actually trying, even if they may be wrong. I also won't pretend to know with 100% certainty who exactly is right on the nuanced and detailed theological questions.
    What I do know though, with absolute certainty, is that that which is being sold by Francis  and the vast majority of the hierarchy is not right

    Schneider says V2 needs to be tweaked and therefore it can be saved.

    Vigano says it is incompatible with the preconciliar magisterium, and needs to be jettisoned in toto.

    So to back both on V2 would be schizophrenic, since they hold mutually exclusive and contradictory positions.

    As regards the indult position, therefore, in such measure as the likes of Matt, Moynihan, Marshall, McCall, et al back Vigano, they necessarily oppose the position of Schneider.

    Which is another way of saying that which has already been said:

    Vigano is like a tugboat dragging the indult world into a more substantial and doctrinal traditionalism (while waiving to the SSPX ship as it passes, heading in the other direction).
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: +Vigano Arrives at Integral Traditionalism
    « Reply #35 on: June 24, 2021, 02:25:54 PM »
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    • Why has this board heretofore typically equated the SSPX with the indults (or soon-to-be a Novus Ordo indult)? is the board now saying that the indult is the new SSPX?  
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    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: +Vigano Arrives at Integral Traditionalism
    « Reply #36 on: June 24, 2021, 02:52:50 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on June 24, 2021, 09:40:59 AM
    Schneider says V2 needs to be tweaked and therefore it can be saved.

    Vigano says it is incompatible with the preconciliar magisterium, and needs to be jettisoned in toto.

    So to back both on V2 would be schizophrenic, since they hold mutually exclusive and contradictory positions.

    As regards the indult position, therefore, in such measure as the likes of Matt, Moynihan, Marshall, McCall, et al back Vigano, they necessarily oppose the position of Schneider.

    Which is another way of saying that which has already been said:

    Vigano is like a tugboat dragging the indult world into a more substantial and doctrinal traditionalism (while waiving to the SSPX ship as it passes, heading in the other direction).

    If the Indult world is following +Vigano, they quickly leapfrog the SSPX into a Resistance position, whereas the SSPX (based on +Fellay's latest statements) is in the +Schneider camp.
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: +Vigano Arrives at Integral Traditionalism
    « Reply #37 on: June 24, 2021, 03:30:19 PM »
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    • Quote from: ByzCat3000 on June 24, 2021, 08:48:54 AM
    Why do you believe the SSPX would be so much more likely to continue to accept Francis than all the others?

    What do you mean by "accept Francis"? 

    The SSPX have always accepted that the Pope is the Pope. Archbishop Lefebvre always accepted the reigning pope as the pope.
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: +Vigano Arrives at Integral Traditionalism
    « Reply #38 on: June 24, 2021, 03:48:39 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on June 24, 2021, 02:52:50 PM
    If the Indult world is following +Vigano, they quickly leapfrog the SSPX into a Resistance position, whereas the SSPX (based on +Fellay's latest statements) is in the +Schneider camp.
    Yup.  Rather amazing, but that is the current state of things.
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    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: +Vigano Arrives at Integral Traditionalism
    « Reply #39 on: June 24, 2021, 11:04:31 PM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on June 24, 2021, 03:30:19 PM
    What do you mean by "accept Francis"?

    The SSPX have always accepted that the Pope is the Pope. Archbishop Lefebvre always accepted the reigning pope as the pope.
    Yes, but the hypothetical scenario was that every group *except* SSPX elects Vigano as Pope, while *only* the SSPX continues to recognize Francis.  That seems really unlikely.

    I think if all the reasonably solid bishops (and I mean everything from Burke or Sarah on the "left" to the Resistance on the "right") were to determine that Francis was a formal heretic, not really the Pope, and held an emergency conclave of some sort to elect Vigano, I don't think the SSPX would stand alone and be like "no, Francis is still Pope."  I find that unlikely TBH.
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    Offline Matthew

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    Re: +Vigano Arrives at Integral Traditionalism
    « Reply #40 on: June 25, 2021, 05:47:51 AM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on June 24, 2021, 03:48:39 PM
    Yup.  Rather amazing, but that is the current state of things.
    Yes, as we watch the ongoing drama unfold in the moribund Conciliar Church, we have to keep everything else in mind as well -- nothing happens in a vacuum.
    The recent move in the USA towards communism, the most obvious stolen election ever, the Covid scamdemic, epic progress on the Great Reset scheme, etc.
    Also: the collapse of the SSPX into Indult-hood over the past 9 years.
    This is ALL happening at the same time.
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: +Vigano Arrives at Integral Traditionalism
    « Reply #41 on: June 25, 2021, 05:54:06 AM »
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    • Quote from: ByzCat3000 on June 24, 2021, 11:04:31 PM
    Yes, but the hypothetical scenario was that every group *except* SSPX elects Vigano as Pope, while *only* the SSPX continues to recognize Francis.  That seems really unlikely.

    I think if all the reasonably solid bishops (and I mean everything from Burke or Sarah on the "left" to the Resistance on the "right") were to determine that Francis was a formal heretic, not really the Pope, and held an emergency conclave of some sort to elect Vigano, I don't think the SSPX would stand alone and be like "no, Francis is still Pope."  I find that unlikely TBH.
    I understood what you meant.  Yes, if everyone else is electing Vigano as pope rather than recognize Francis, then by doing so they are stating that Bergoglio is not pope (ie. they all become sedevacantist).  It would be good to get some clarity on this since I would be very surprised if they are saying that Bergoglio is not pope.
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