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Author Topic: +Vigano Arrives at Integral Traditionalism  (Read 10222 times)

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Re: +Vigano Arrives at Integral Traditionalism
« Reply #20 on: June 18, 2021, 08:15:12 AM »
Excerpts from this latest interview :

I hope the reader will keep in mind that +Vigano is making the following comments to his interviewer who, as a member of the GREC, represents one of the very persons who has promoted the compromise strategy of the Ecclesia Dei communities which +Vigano here criticizes/condemns.  +Vigano is more or less rejecting Barthe's entire position to his face:

1) "Archbishop Annibale Bugnini was one of the collaborators in the drafting of the Ordo Hebdomadae Sanctae instauratus promulgated during the pontificate of Pius XII. The serious deformations of the new Missal are in nuce [essentially] contained in the rite of Holy Week, demonstrating that the demolition plan had already begun."

2) "Lastly, I would like to point out that this awareness of the doctrinal incompatibility of the ancient rite with the ideology of Vatican II is claimed by self-styled theologians and progressive intellectuals, for whom the “Extraordinary Form” of the rite can be tolerated as long as the entire theological framework that it implies is not adopted. This is why the liturgy of the Summorum Pontificuм communities is tolerated, provided that in preaching and catechesis one is careful not to criticize Vatican II or the new Mass."

3) Here it is:  "The next Pope will have to restore all the liturgical books previous to the conciliar reform and banish from Catholic churches its unseemly parody, in whose realization notorious modernists and heretics collaborated."

4) "I do not believe that Bergoglio has any interest in the liturgy tout court, and a fortiori in the Tridentine liturgy, which is as alien to him and disliked as anything remotely reminiscent of Catholicism. His approach is political: he tolerates the Ecclesia Dei communities because they keep the conservatives out of the parishes, and at the same time he maintains control over them, forcing them to limit their dissent solely to the liturgical level, while ensuring their fidelity to the conciliar ideology.

With regard to the Society of St. Pius X, we are witnessing a more subtle maneuver: Bergoglio maintains “good neighborly” relations, and while recognizing certain prerogatives of its Superiors — thus demonstrating that he considers them living members of the Church — on the other hand he may want to barter their complete canonical regularization for an acceptance of the “conciliar magisterium.” It is clear that this is an insidious trap: once an agreement is signed with the Holy See, the independence which the Society enjoys in virtue of its position of not being completely regular would be lost, and with it, its economic independence."

5) "The canonical position of the Ecclesia Dei communities has always been at risk. Their survival is linked to their at least implicit acceptance of the conciliar doctrine and liturgical reform. Those who do not conform, by criticizing Vatican II or refusing to celebrate or attend the reformed rite, ipso facto put themselves in a position of being expelled. The superiors of these societies of apostolic life themselves end up being the overseers of their clerics, who are strongly advised to refrain from criticism and to give tangible signs of alignment from time to time, for example, by taking part in celebrations in the “Ordinary Form.” Paradoxically, a diocesan parish priest has greater freedom of speech in doctrinal matters than a member of one of these institutes."

Excellent recap of article, thanks Sean

Re: +Vigano Arrives at Integral Traditionalism
« Reply #21 on: June 24, 2021, 05:46:31 AM »
We should be careful. It really isn't worth celebrating until he actually comes over like Bishop Lazo did. Bishop Lazo, RIP, had the humility to start co-operating with the traditional Bishops and publicly associating with them. So far we have not seen that from Bishop Vigano.

It is always telling when Ecclesia Dei people get all worked up about something compared to when they go quiet. The former is an indication that there is something to be suspicious of.


Offline Ladislaus

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Re: +Vigano Arrives at Integral Traditionalism
« Reply #22 on: June 24, 2021, 07:39:12 AM »
We should be careful. It really isn't worth celebrating until he actually comes over like Bishop Lazo did. Bishop Lazo, RIP, had the humility to start co-operating with the traditional Bishops and publicly associating with them. So far we have not seen that from Bishop Vigano.

It is always telling when Ecclesia Dei people get all worked up about something compared to when they go quiet. The former is an indication that there is something to be suspicious of.

I disagree.  Ideas matter.  Doctrine matters.  Even if he hasn't yet DONE anything, practically speaking, doctrine is everything in terms of combatting these errors.  He's emboldening even those in the Conciliar Church to reject the errors of Vatican II and the NOM.  They can think, "look, even a high-ranking prelate rejects V2 and NOM; maybe it IS OK to have serious questions abou them."  You underestimate the value his doctrine has had.  So what if he doesn't go around conferring Sacraments to Traditional Catholics.  There are plenty of groups out there who already do that.  Of course, there's the thorny issue of his consecration in the New Rite.

So, there's plenty to "celebrate" here.

Re: +Vigano Arrives at Integral Traditionalism
« Reply #23 on: June 24, 2021, 07:43:17 AM »
FWIW, I have an email from +Williamson in which he says he has been in contact with +Viganò.

Re: +Vigano Arrives at Integral Traditionalism
« Reply #24 on: June 24, 2021, 07:51:09 AM »
I disagree.  Ideas matter.  Doctrine matters.  Even if he hasn't yet DONE anything, practically speaking, doctrine is everything in terms of combatting these errors.  He's emboldening even those in the Conciliar Church to reject the errors of Vatican II and the NOM.  They can think, "look, even a high-ranking prelate rejects V2 and NOM; maybe it IS OK to have serious questions abou them."  You underestimate the value his doctrine has had.  So what if he doesn't go around conferring Sacraments to Traditional Catholics.  There are plenty of groups out there who already do that.  Of course, there's the thorny issue of his consecration in the New Rite.

So, there's plenty to "celebrate" here.
I think if/when he gets consecrated in the Old Rite, this would constitute the beginning of "doing" something.