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Author Topic: Huonder oils and ordinations  (Read 1947 times)

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Offline Quo vadis Domine

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Re: Huonder oils and ordinations
« Reply #15 on: August 13, 2023, 08:14:18 PM »
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  • Here is Pius XII's exact quote, again, which other readers can use to draw their own conclusions about the Pope's intentions:

    https://www.papalencyclicals.net/pius12/p12sacrao.htm

    "Finally, what We have above declared and provided is by no means to be understood in the sense that it be permitted even in the slightest detail to neglect or omit the other rites which are prescribed in the Roman Pontifical; on the contrary We order that all the prescriptions laid down in the said Roman Pontifical be religiously observed and performed.

    The provisions of this Our Constitution have not retroactive force; in case any doubt arises, it is be submitted to this Apostolic See.
    These things We proclaim, declare, and decree, all things to the contrary notwithstanding, even those worthy of special mention, and accordingly We will and order that in the Roman Pontifical they be clearly indicated. Let no man therefore infringe this Constitution which We have enacted, nor dare to contravene the same."


    Some theologians believed that for validity of Holy Orders the matter was the imposition of hands, others thought that is the the passing of the instruments, and still others believed that it was both (this is what you believe). Pope Pius XII settled the matter by stating that it was just the imposition of hands that was essential, BUT for the sacrament to be *licit*, all of the rites are to be observed. 
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Huonder oils and ordinations
    « Reply #16 on: August 13, 2023, 08:42:13 PM »
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  • Some theologians believed that for validity of Holy Orders the matter was the imposition of hands, others thought that is the the passing of the instruments, and still others believed that it was both (this is what you believe). Pope Pius XII settled the matter by stating that it was just the imposition of hands that was essential, BUT for the sacrament to be *licit*, all of the rites are to be observed.

    Again, you misrepresent what I have said. I will say it again. There are multiple things happening in a traditional Priestly Ordination as described by Aquinas (not by me):

    1. A blessing is given to prepare the recipient for the graces of the Sacrament.

    2. The grace of the Order is conveyed by imposition of hands (matter) and the Preface prayer (form). The indelible character is imprinted here, says Pius XII.

    3. The priest's hands and instruments must be consecrated because unconsecrated things cannot touch Our Lord. Aquinas said that the indelible character was imprinted on this step, but he has now been overruled by Pius XII.

    Assigning the precise point where the indelible character of Order was imprinted was the subject matter of Sacramentum Ordinis. It has been settled. I agree with you that this precise issue has been settled. 

    The consecration by anointing with oils was not discussed in Sacramentum Ordinis. Pius XII did not have a reason to discuss that subject there. Yes, SO said that "handing over of the instruments" was not the matter of the imprinting of the indelible character. But one should not take that to mean that a priest can now handle Our Lord with unconsecrated hands and instruments. The consecration with oils must still be done as it had always been done to perfect the power Sacrament. Otherwise, the priest is committing a sacrilege by touching Our Lord with unconsecrated hands. It is not just ecclesiastically illicit. It is immoral for theological reasons.

    It is similar to a lay person handing out Holy Communion. The reason a lay person should not do this is not because he's a lay person, but, rather, because his hands have not been consecrated.


    Offline ElwinRansom1970

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    Re: Huonder oils and ordinations
    « Reply #17 on: August 13, 2023, 08:51:14 PM »
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  • Again, you misrepresent what I have said. I will say it again. There are multiple things happening in a traditional Priestly Ordination as described by Aquinas (not by me):

    1. A blessing is given to prepare the recipient for the graces of the Sacrament.

    2. The grace of the Order is conveyed by imposition of hands (matter) and the Preface prayer (form). The indelible character is imprinted here, says Pius XII.

    3. The priest's hands and instruments must be consecrated because unconsecrated things cannot touch Our Lord. Aquinas said that the indelible character was imprinted on this step, but he has now been overruled by Pius XII.

    Assigning the precise point where the indelible character of Order was imprinted was the subject matter of Sacramentum Ordinis. It has been settled. I agree with you that this precise issue has been settled.

    The consecration by anointing with oils was not discussed in Sacramentum Ordinis. Pius XII did not have a reason to discuss that subject there. Yes, SO said that "handing over of the instruments" was not the matter of the imprinting of the indelible character. But one should not take that to mean that a priest can now handle Our Lord with unconsecrated hands and instruments. The consecration with oils must still be done as it had always been done to perfect the power Sacrament. Otherwise, the priest is committing a sacrilege by touching Our Lord with unconsecrated hands. It is not just ecclesiastically illicit. It is immoral for theological reasons.

    It is similar to a lay person handing out Holy Communion. The reason a lay person should not do this is not because he's a lay person, but, rather, because his hands have not been consecrated.
    Nope. You are confusing what is necessary for validity with what is necessary for liceity.

    To get at what is necessary for validity, one examines the ceremonies of ordination across all the liturgical rites in search of what is common to all. In doing this, one sees that the imposition of hands is the only common matter across rites. Hence and contrary to the Council of Florence, Pius XII defined imposition of hands as the necessary matter of Orders for validity.

    If you really want to make a the head of a neoscholastic theologian explode, research what is the necessary form for valid ordinations.
    🤯
    "I distrust every idea that does not seem obsolete and grotesque to my contemporaries."
    Nicolás Gómez Dávila

    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Huonder oils and ordinations
    « Reply #18 on: August 13, 2023, 08:53:20 PM »
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  • So does mean all those confirmed by this new oil would not be valid?

    I was 'confirmed' in the novus ordo so when I find an opportunity to get conditionally confirmed (assuming I need one) this is something I will need to consider.

    Correct. There is enough "positive doubt" about the "matter" in that case to justify being conditionally confirmed. But the minister is probably a doubtfully-valid New Rite bishop and the "form" is doubtfully-valid in the New Rite of Confirmation. 

    It should be done by a bishop consecrated in the Old Rite who uses Chrism oil blessed in the Old Rite using the Old Rite of Confirmation to confirm you. 

    Offline ElwinRansom1970

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    Re: Huonder oils and ordinations
    « Reply #19 on: August 13, 2023, 08:57:15 PM »
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  • It is similar to a lay person handing out Holy Communion. The reason a lay person should not do this is not because he's a lay person, but, rather, because his hands have not been consecrated.
    That is just a dumb statement.

    A deacon is an ordinary minister of communion. His hands are not consecrated with Chrism. Further, an acolyte is an extraordinary minister of communion and his hands too are not consecrated with Chrism.

    Put down Aquinas' Summa for a while and read the Church Fathers and, equally important, read the decrees of the ecuмenical councils and local councils of the early Church.
    "I distrust every idea that does not seem obsolete and grotesque to my contemporaries."
    Nicolás Gómez Dávila


    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Huonder oils and ordinations
    « Reply #20 on: August 13, 2023, 09:06:44 PM »
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  • Nope. You are confusing what is necessary for validity with what is necessary for liceity.

    To get at what is necessary for validity, one examines the ceremonies of ordination across all the liturgical rites in search of what is common to all. In doing this, one sees that the imposition of hands is the only common matter across rites. Hence and contrary to the Council of Florence, Pius XII defined imposition of hands as the necessary matter of Orders for validity.

    If you really want to make a the head of a neoscholastic theologian explode, research what is the necessary form for valid ordinations.
    🤯

    I challenge you to find one time that I used the word "validity" or "valid" in this thread. The Consecration of the Priest's hands and paten and chalice are required not for the "validity" of the Sacrament, but for the perfection of the power of the Sacrament.

    And, no, you are wrong, one does not take a least-common-denominator approach to determining validity of a Sacrament. One looks at what the highest Roman Catholic Church authorities have said is necessary for validity in the Roman Rite.

    Other Rites (Byzantine, etc.) are different and what is valid in the Byzantine Rite does not necessarily transfer to the Roman Rite automatically. That incorrect assumption is part of the Modernist-Ecuмenist deception. If a Pope has defined "the form" in the Roman Rite to be X (and otherwise said it is invalid), then "the form" in the Roman Rite must be X. It doesn't matter what another Rite does.

    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Huonder oils and ordinations
    « Reply #21 on: August 13, 2023, 09:22:03 PM »
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  • That is just a dumb statement.

    A deacon is an ordinary minister of communion. His hands are not consecrated with Chrism. Further, an acolyte is an extraordinary minister of communion and his hands too are not consecrated with Chrism.

    Put down Aquinas' Summa for a while and read the Church Fathers and, equally important, read the decrees of the ecuмenical councils and local councils of the early Church.

    Maybe you should brush up on Canon Law, Elwin. In the traditional Catholic Church, the deacon is not "an ordinary minister of communion." And only for a "grave cause" and "legitimate necessity" can a deacon hand out Holy Communion.

    Canon 845 (1917):

    § 1. The ordinary minister of holy communion is only a priest.
    § 2. A deacon is an extraordinary [minister], authorized by the local Ordinary or a pastor, granted for grave cause, which in case of legitimate necessity is presumed.

    Offline ElwinRansom1970

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    Re: Huonder oils and ordinations
    « Reply #22 on: August 14, 2023, 05:51:26 AM »
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  • Angelus, clearly we belong to different religions since mine is Catholic (universal, pertaing to the whole Church, all 24 Churches sui juris) and yours is heretodoxically particular (some idolatry of the Latin Church sui juris).
    "I distrust every idea that does not seem obsolete and grotesque to my contemporaries."
    Nicolás Gómez Dávila


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Huonder oils and ordinations
    « Reply #23 on: August 14, 2023, 07:15:08 AM »
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  • Maybe you should brush up on Canon Law, Elwin. In the traditional Catholic Church, the deacon is not "an ordinary minister of communion." And only for a "grave cause" and "legitimate necessity" can a deacon hand out Holy Communion.

    Canon 845 (1917):

    § 1. The ordinary minister of holy communion is only a priest.
    § 2. A deacon is an extraordinary [minister], authorized by the local Ordinary or a pastor, granted for grave cause, which in case of legitimate necessity is presumed.

    From time to time, I have noticed SSPX deacons distributing Communion.

    Since there is no grave cause or necessity, am I to presume this practice is justified according to the 1983 Code (which considers deacons as ordinary ministers of the Eucharist)?
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Huonder oils and ordinations
    « Reply #24 on: August 14, 2023, 08:40:34 AM »
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  • He did not say that the rest of the rite is absolutely necessary. I think you are confusing validity with licitness.

    You are correct.  While these other aspects of the Rite (including the traditio instrumentorum) continue to be required, they are not essential for validity.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Huonder oils and ordinations
    « Reply #25 on: August 14, 2023, 08:41:39 AM »
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  • Sacred Chrism is necessary matter for Confirmation.

    https://aquinas.cc/la/en/~ST.III.Q72.A3

    Sure, that's St. Thomas' opinion, but as much authority as he has, it does not make a consensus.  I'd want to see a theological manual that summaries the state of the question and the theological consensus.