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Author Topic: VatII - the Biggest Disaster in Church History  (Read 1798 times)

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Offline nadieimportante

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VatII - the Biggest Disaster in Church History
« on: September 11, 2012, 11:29:53 AM »
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  • From: Declaration of Dom Tomás de Aquino
    8. September 2012 [DECLARAÇÃO DE DOM TOMÁS DE AQUINO (Portuguese)
    Faber English translation]


    "Now, today in Tradition they want us to join, whatever it may cost, with those who believe, that the errors of the Council are not so grave, that 95% of the Councel are acceptable, that the religious liberty of Dignitatis Humanae is very, very limited, that we should not make super-heresies of the errors of the Council. But that is not true.  The Council was the biggest disaster of the history of the Church since it was founded, as Msgr Lefevbre says in his book "From Liberalism to Apostasy". If we should build on this basis or we should unite on this basis, I prefer to abstain from that, and prefer to work for the integral restauration of the Catholic Faith as Msgr Marcel Lefebvre always advised us and reprimanded us, waiting that the Society reanimates anew in the Faith, which is what I hope, because it has the means to do it, it has excellent bishops and priests."

    The paragraph above is the bottom line, what should EVER be kept in front of our eyes, and the heart of it is:

    "The Council was the biggest disaster of the history of the Church since it was founded"
    "Wrong is wrong even if everyone is doing it.
     Right is right even if no one is doing it." - Saint Augustine


    Offline Telesphorus

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    VatII - the Biggest Disaster in Church History
    « Reply #1 on: September 11, 2012, 11:40:05 AM »
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  • Well, I would say, rather than referring to the problem as simply being the Council, rather it was the actions of those behind the Council that have caused the greatest disaster.

    Not to downplay the seriousness of the Council itself, but that we cannot limit this catastrophe to its outward manifestation, the public "ratification" at the Council.  The catastrophe is the men behind the Council, who are still there.


    Offline nadieimportante

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    VatII - the Biggest Disaster in Church History
    « Reply #2 on: September 11, 2012, 02:00:18 PM »
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  • Quote from: Telesphorus
    Well, I would say, rather than referring to the problem as simply being the Council, rather it was the actions of those behind the Council that have caused the greatest disaster.

    Not to downplay the seriousness of the Council itself, but that we cannot limit this catastrophe to its outward manifestation, the public "ratification" at the Council.  The catastrophe is the men behind the Council, who are still there.


    By condeming the entire council as the worst disaster in Church history, we are condeming every person that used/uses it to rationalize or to impose their ideas. If we were to condemn the men, the list would never stop. By condeming the council we catch every single man, from those who are still fooled by it, to those that knew/know exactly what they are doing, from the "conservative" Novus Ordo/Indult  neo-con, to the hardened progressivist.

    "Wrong is wrong even if everyone is doing it.
     Right is right even if no one is doing it." - Saint Augustine

    Offline Capt McQuigg

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    VatII - the Biggest Disaster in Church History
    « Reply #3 on: September 11, 2012, 09:40:52 PM »
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  • Disaster conjures up images of hurricanes or something accidentally exploding.  Whereas, Vatican II was self-induced - carried out by operatives who were planning this for decades.  

    Vatican II just reeks of deception and betrayal.  

    Why did everyone except a handful of traditionalists go along with it?

    Offline Telesphorus

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    VatII - the Biggest Disaster in Church History
    « Reply #4 on: September 11, 2012, 10:31:47 PM »
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  • Quote from: Capt McQuigg
    Why did everyone except a handful of traditionalists go along with it?


    Because the people who should have known better were confused and afraid.


    Offline Belloc

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    VatII - the Biggest Disaster in Church History
    « Reply #5 on: September 12, 2012, 09:14:03 AM »
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  • Quote from: Telesphorus
    Well, I would say, rather than referring to the problem as simply being the Council, rather it was the actions of those behind the Council that have caused the greatest disaster.

    Not to downplay the seriousness of the Council itself, but that we cannot limit this catastrophe to its outward manifestation, the public "ratification" at the Council.  The catastrophe is the men behind the Council, who are still there.


    V2 was the pandora opening, the problems were simmering long before that led to that final bursting open of doors

    -Americanism
    =-Modernism since late 1800's
    -Protestantism before
    -industrial revolution, up-ending society and family
    -science divorced from Fide..

    and list could go on..
    Proud "European American" and prouder, still, Catholic

    Offline Belloc

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    VatII - the Biggest Disaster in Church History
    « Reply #6 on: September 12, 2012, 09:15:05 AM »
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  • Quote from: Telesphorus
    Quote from: Capt McQuigg
    Why did everyone except a handful of traditionalists go along with it?


    Because the people who should have known better were confused and afraid.


    many were taught a false obediance and ignorance early on....just do what you are told mentality.....well, ABL did not, many others out there also, did not in the non-SV and SV circles...
    Proud "European American" and prouder, still, Catholic

    Offline RomanCatholic1953

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    VatII - the Biggest Disaster in Church History
    « Reply #7 on: September 12, 2012, 10:54:00 AM »
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  • I remembered and lived through those times.

    Nuns perfectly Orthodox late as 1964 were teaching heresy in
    1965.

    Priests that seen Orthodox in 1964 were exhanging pulpits with
    proestant ministers beginning in 1965. And, making a mockery
    of the mass.

    I refused to along with it them, and now.


    Offline Neil Obstat

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    VatII - the Biggest Disaster in Church History
    « Reply #8 on: September 12, 2012, 03:31:35 PM »
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  • Quote from: Telesphorus
    Quote from: Capt McQuigg
    Why did everyone except a handful of traditionalists go along with it?


    Because the people who should have known better were confused and afraid.




    Many things combined to give a most favorable environment for the unclean spirit
    of Vatican II
    to do its dirty work. This is the mystery of iniquity at work, it is a
    battle of the powers and principalities in high places.

    Science, technology, the A-bomb, two unprecedented world wars, Communism,
    abortion, divorce and re-marriage, ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity, the "sɛҳuąƖ revolution," Rock 'n
    Roll, drug culture, the War in Viet Nam, the Forgotten War (Korea), JFK, the race
    to land a man on the moon, and last but not least, the suppression of the Third
    Secret of Fatima, to name a few, all contributed to a climate of innovation in
    the practice of the Faith, an opportunity unprecedented in the history of the world.
    And the devil did not miss his opportunity.

    And this same unclean spirit of Vatican II is still alive today. It is part and
    parcel of Modernism, and it is in the air we breathe. We are all subject to its
    temptation, inasmuch as we all live "in the world."

    I have an old, 19th century book with a holy card in it showing a priest, and the
    handwritten words below it say, "He was in the world, but not of the world." These
    were words that traditionally were a great compliment and commonly used to give
    honor and recognition to holy priests and religious. They were words that were as
    an unction of consolation to the ears of same, for they told them what they wanted
    to hear, that their life's work was not in vain. They had fought the good fight. They
    had kept the faith. They had handed down that which they had received. That kind
    of thing.

    All of this was thrown out the door, or the window (take your pick) at Vatican II.
    It was not a sudden thing. It had been smoldering for years under the surface.
    And it continues to smolder today. But it turned into a raging inferno during
    and after "the Council" but it was a raging fire that went unnoticed by many. It was
    as though a fire visible by those with eyes to see and ears to hear, as Our Lord
    said, "let him who readeth understand."




    Quote from: RomanCatholic1953
    I remembered and lived through those times.

    Nuns perfectly Orthodox late as 1964 were teaching heresy in
    1965.

    Priests that seen Orthodox in 1964 were [exchanging] pulpits with
    [protestant] ministers beginning in 1965. And, making a mockery
    of the mass.

    I refused to [go] along with it them, and now.


    Catholic schools started holding "non-denominational" religion classes. At one
    Catholic school in Indonesia, for example, Mohammedanism was taught in a
    room where those children whose parents so agreed, studied the Koran. The
    current claimant to the White House attended such a school. By their fruits you
    shall know them....


    There had been a priest whose picture had hung on the walls of school classrooms
    all over the country, for years and years. Then one day, suddenly, his pictures
    were taken down without any explanation. He had been the darling of educators
    from sea to shining sea one day, and persona non grata the next. Why? Because
    he dared to defend the dogma of the Church, extra ecclesiam nulla salus, when
    it was "politically incorrect" to do so, especially in Boston, MA, where he was
    evangelizing for "the conversion of America."

    And that was an entire decade before Vatican II. You see, the wiles of false
    ecuмenism, part of the unclean spirit, the mystery of iniquity, was already at work
    in the highest offices of the Church. They were already diligently trying to keep
    the Third Secret of Fatima concealed and OUT OF THE MINDS of the faithful. It was
    a very big job, for all the Marian clubs and weekly Rosary meetings and home
    visitations of Our Lady of Fatima kept the hope alive that by 1960 the Secret would
    be revealed. And that was AFTER the whole world had quietly set aside the dogma
    of EENS. These were two of the three things that had to be done before
    Vatican II could take place. The third thing was to get Angelo Roncalli to speak the
    words, "I would be John."

    For it was John who would then do the next 3 things: he would convoke Vatican II
    for no good reason, he would give the essential speech of October 11th, 1962, and
    he would elevate Giovanni Montini to Cardinal.

    And then it was Paul VI who would do the next 4 things: he kept the abominable
    Council going (even after John XXIII had cried to stop it on his deathbed), he
    abolished the Oath Against Modernism (substituting a useless pledge of fidelity),
    changed the form of consecration of bishops in 1968, and finally, allowed the fowl
    stream of new liturgy (Novus Ordo) to flood the earth with a vengeance.


    We are responsible to know this story. We should be prepared, so we can hold
    our grandchildren on our knee and tell it convincingly. It is a true story, and one
    that can be told with confidence. And if we do not tell it to our grandchildren, they
    will learn lies from elsewhere, for the spirit of the world is at WAR with this true
    story, and the spirit of the world is everywhere now in these days: it is a black
    fog covering the earth, which began as the smoke of satan in the Church. Pope
    Paul VI mentioned it, but he neglected to explain, that it was he who lit the fire!
    .--. .-.-.- ... .-.-.- ..-. --- .-. - .... . -.- .. -. --. -.. --- -- --..-- - .... . .--. --- .-- . .-. .- -. -.. -....- -....- .--- ..- ... - -.- .. -.. -.. .. -. --. .-.-.

    Offline Capt McQuigg

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    VatII - the Biggest Disaster in Church History
    « Reply #9 on: September 12, 2012, 04:33:57 PM »
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  • I'm still wondering why no one except a handful of traditionalists stood up to the onslaught.  I don't see how any priest or lay teacher with some Thomist / scholastic education or even just have read a couple of good books didn't see through this whole charade.  

    As for fear.  I get that.  Most people will be deathly afraid of being excommunicated or lose their social standing or even lose their occupation.  Fear is understandable.

    Perhaps some of it was just plain old laziness.  The bishops of the world and the priests in their diocese were willing to try something new because they had become so accustomed to the Traditional Church and thought a "new way" would reach a larger chunk of the population - although I'm being generous here.

    Has anyone here ever read a book that cast a light on Paul VI as a misguided man?  I'm strongly inclined to believe that he had evil intentions all along.    


    Offline Capt McQuigg

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    VatII - the Biggest Disaster in Church History
    « Reply #10 on: September 12, 2012, 04:43:39 PM »
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  • Quote from: Neil Obstat

    There had been a priest whose picture had hung on the walls of school classrooms
    all over the country, for years and years. Then one day, suddenly, his pictures
    were taken down without any explanation. He had been the darling of educators
    from sea to shining sea one day, and persona non grata the next. Why? Because
    he dared to defend the dogma of the Church, extra ecclesiam nulla salus, when
    it was "politically incorrect" to do so, especially in Boston, MA, where he was
    evangelizing for "the conversion of America."

    And that was an entire decade before Vatican II.


    Fr. Leonard Feeney?


    Offline Maria Elizabeth

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    VatII - the Biggest Disaster in Church History
    « Reply #11 on: September 12, 2012, 05:23:27 PM »
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  • Quote from: Capt McQuigg
    I'm still wondering why no one except a handful of traditionalists stood up to the onslaught.  I don't see how any priest or lay teacher with some Thomist / scholastic education or even just have read a couple of good books didn't see through this whole charade.  

    As for fear.  I get that.  Most people will be deathly afraid of being excommunicated or lose their social standing or even lose their occupation.  Fear is understandable.


    Or despair.  Where could one go to Mass?  How was one supposed to fulfill one's Sunday obligation when all the priests were so anti-Tradition?  What was one to do?  Become Protestant???

    These are the same issues facing us today with the infiltration of the SSPX.  In those dioscese where the bishops are hostile to Tradition, there are no other options for traditional Catholics.  We either live with the moderizations taking place within our chapels or else... what??  

    "Lord, to whom shall we go?  You have the words of eternal life."  Please do not abandon us, dear Lord!!  Our pastors are becoming ravenous wolves, seeking to devour the sheep!!


    Offline Incredulous

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    VatII - the Biggest Disaster in Church History
    « Reply #12 on: September 12, 2012, 08:29:34 PM »
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  • Quote from: Maria Elizabeth
    Quote from: Capt McQuigg
    I'm still wondering why no one except a handful of traditionalists stood up to the onslaught.  I don't see how any priest or lay teacher with some Thomist / scholastic education or even just have read a couple of good books didn't see through this whole charade.  

    As for fear.  I get that.  Most people will be deathly afraid of being excommunicated or lose their social standing or even lose their occupation.  Fear is understandable.


    Or despair.  Where could one go to Mass?  How was one supposed to fulfill one's Sunday obligation when all the priests were so anti-Tradition?  What was one to do?  Become Protestant???

    These are the same issues facing us today with the infiltration of the SSPX.  In those dioscese where the bishops are hostile to Tradition, there are no other options for traditional Catholics.  We either live with the moderizations taking place within our chapels or else... what??  

    "Lord, to whom shall we go?  You have the words of eternal life."  Please do not abandon us, dear Lord!!  Our pastors are becoming ravenous wolves, seeking to devour the sheep!!




    Agreed.  The SSPX's faithful's complacency is the astounding part?   How did they ever claim to be traditional Catholics?

    Its another example of our "diabolical confusion".

    As Fellay and Max steal-off into the night with the SSPX assets, the faithful don't even care or realize what they're losing?

     



     
    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi

    Offline Neil Obstat

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    VatII - the Biggest Disaster in Church History
    « Reply #13 on: September 13, 2012, 02:44:20 AM »
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  • Quote from: Capt McQuigg
    I'm still wondering why no one except a handful of traditionalists stood up to the onslaught.  I don't see how any priest or lay teacher with some Thomist / scholastic education or even just have read a couple of good books didn't see through this whole charade.  

    As for fear.  I get that.  Most people will be deathly afraid of being excommunicated or lose their social standing or even lose their occupation.  Fear is understandable.

    Perhaps some of it was just plain old laziness.  The bishops of the world and the priests in their diocese were willing to try something new because they had become so accustomed to the Traditional Church and thought a "new way" would reach a larger chunk of the population - although I'm being generous here.

    Has anyone here ever read a book that cast a light on Paul VI as a misguided man?  I'm strongly inclined to believe that he had evil intentions all along.    




    I'm glad to see you're asking these questions. Because what you are looking for
    is the same thing that future generations will be looking for. This does not make
    sense to you right now: how is it going to make sense to children who won't be
    born for another 40 years? Who's going to answer their questions if you can't find
    satisfactory answers in 2012?

    This is why we need to study. And part of studying is asking the hard questions,
    and looking for the real answers. You had better start talking to older priests who
    lived through this, 60 years old and older: because they're going to be getting
    really hard to find very very soon. One such a one just died this week, Fr. Hector
    Bolduc. His funeral is tomorrow. You'll never get any answers from him. But if
    you show up at his funeral, and bring a tape recorder, I'd say you'll come away
    with more data than you can process in a month, by asking others questions, and
    making appointments for the future.
    .--. .-.-.- ... .-.-.- ..-. --- .-. - .... . -.- .. -. --. -.. --- -- --..-- - .... . .--. --- .-- . .-. .- -. -.. -....- -....- .--- ..- ... - -.- .. -.. -.. .. -. --. .-.-.

    Offline nadieimportante

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    VatII - the Biggest Disaster in Church History
    « Reply #14 on: September 13, 2012, 08:42:44 AM »
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  • Quote from: Capt McQuigg
    I'm still wondering why no one except a handful of traditionalists stood up to the onslaught.  I don't see how any priest or lay teacher with some Thomist / scholastic education or even just have read a couple of good books didn't see through this whole charade.  

    As for fear.  I get that.  Most people will be deathly afraid of being excommunicated or lose their social standing or even lose their occupation.  Fear is understandable.

    Perhaps some of it was just plain old laziness.  The bishops of the world and the priests in their diocese were willing to try something new because they had become so accustomed to the Traditional Church and thought a "new way" would reach a larger chunk of the population - although I'm being generous here.

    Has anyone here ever read a book that cast a light on Paul VI as a misguided man?  I'm strongly inclined to believe that he had evil intentions all along.    



    Depends on the country. In Catholic countries (Europe, S. America) the people were cultural Catholics, but that's about it. Scarcesly anyone lived the faith. All of them left the Church, fallen away Catholics. That got like 80+% of Catholics (only like 5% of French, Austrian, Italian, French go to mass today).

    In the USA, Catholics had become "Americanized", just like everyone else, religion became something that you didn't discuss or show in mixed company. Vatican II changes made Catholics acceptable even to hardened Protestants.

    Basically, the tree was rotted by secularism for a long time. It's no wonder that Our Lord said: "But yet the Son of man, when he cometh, shall he find, think you, faith on earth?
    "Wrong is wrong even if everyone is doing it.
     Right is right even if no one is doing it." - Saint Augustine