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Offline Matthew

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Vatican says Doctrinal Difficulties prevent agreement
« on: June 14, 2012, 03:50:34 PM »
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  • SSPX says doctrinal difficulties could prolong talks with Vatican

    By Carol Glatz
    Catholic News Service

    VATICAN CITY (CNS) -- The breakaway traditionalist Society of St. Pius X said unresolved "doctrinal difficulties" with the teachings of the Second Vatican Council and the Catholic Church's subsequent liturgical reform could lead to a "new phase of discussions" over possible reconciliation with Rome.

    The society released its statement June 14, a day after the Vatican presented its superior general, Bishop Bernard Fellay, with an evaluation of the society's position on a series of doctrinal questions and a draft docuмent proposing that the society become a personal prelature.

    Bishop Fellay, who was accompanied by an assistant, met with U.S. Cardinal William Levada, prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, Archbishop Luis Ladaria, congregation secretary, and Msgr. Guido Pozzo, secretary of the Pontifical Commission "Ecclesia Dei."

    The SSSPX statement said that Bishop Fellay listened to Cardinal Levada's "explanations and clarifications" and offered the cardinal an explanation of the "doctrinal difficulties" that Vatican II and the subsequent reform of the Mass present for the traditionalists.

    "The desire for further clarifications could lead to a new phase of discussions," the SSPX said.

    A few hours before the society released its statement, Jesuit Father Federico Lombardi, Vatican spokesman, told reporters that "the ball is in the society's court" to accept the Vatican's response and clarifications.

    During the June 13 meeting, Bishop Fellay was given the Holy See's evaluation -- including the opinion of Pope Benedict XVI -- of the society's April response to a "doctrinal preamble" that the bishop would need to sign in order to reconcile the society with the rest of the church, the Vatican said in a statement.

    "The subsequent discussion offered an opportunity to provide the appropriate explanations and clarifications" on both sides, it said. "Bishop Fellay illustrated the current situation" of the society and promised to give the Vatican a response "within a reasonable lapse of time," the Vatican said.

    Also, Bishop Fellay was given a draft docuмent "proposing a personal prelature as the most appropriate instrument for any future canonical recognition of the society," it said.

    A personal prelature is a church jurisdiction without geographical boundaries designed to carry out particular pastoral initiatives. It is headed by a prelate, who is appointed by the pope; currently the church's only personal prelature is Opus Dei.

    When asked whether giving Bishop Fellay a formal proposal of a prelature was a sign the Vatican had approved the bishop's response to the doctrinal preamble, Father Lombardi told journalists that all doctrinal differences had to be resolved before any formal recognition could be made.

    "However, evidently (the prelature proposal) was presented so that if the doctrinal issue is resolved, the canonical part is ready," he said.

    The discussion process is "still open," the Vatican spokesman said, but it seems the Vatican and the SSPX are "drawing closer to agreement in the formulation and presentation of the doctrinal questions" at hand.

    The Vatican statement said, "The hope was expressed that this additional opportunity for reflection would also contribute to reaching full communion between the Society of St. Pius X and the Apostolic See."

    Father Lombardi said the Vatican is showing its willingness and availability to reach an agreement, but that now it is up to Bishop Fellay to respond to the Vatican's position.

    The Vatican spokesman said the society would be holding its general chapter in July, which would be "an occasion for reflection and exchange" of ideas concerning its next step.

    The statement reiterated that the Vatican would be dealing with the society's three other bishops "separately and singularly," and Father Lombardi confirmed that only Bishop Fellay was actively engaged in discussions with the Vatican.

    While Bishop Fellay has been generally positive about the possibility of reconciliation with Rome, leaked letters show that the society's three other bishops have had strong objections to such a move.

    Pope Benedict's recent efforts to bring about reconciliation with the traditionalist group began when he lifted the excommunications incurred by Bishop Fellay and the three other SSPX bishops after they were ordained without papal permission. The pope also established a Vatican committee for doctrinal talks with society representatives in 2009. In September, the Vatican gave Bishop Fellay the "doctrinal preamble" to explain the "minimal, essential" elements on which the society would have to agree for full reconciliation, Father Lombardi had said.

    When the Vatican's doctrinal discussions with the society began in 2009, both sides said the key issues to be discussed included the concept of tradition in general, as well as the Second Vatican Council's teaching on the liturgy, the unity of the church, ecuмenism, interreligious dialogue and religious freedom.

    The society's founder, the late French Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, who rejected some teachings of the Second Vatican Council and the modernizing reforms instituted in its wake, was excommunicated for ordaining Bishop Fellay and the three other bishops without papal permission in 1988.

    In April, Bishop Fellay submitted to the Vatican his second official response to the "doctrinal preamble" outlining what the Vatican said were "some doctrinal principles and criteria for the interpretation of Catholic doctrine necessary to guarantee fidelity" to the formal teaching of the church, presumably including the teachings of the Second Vatican Council.

    The bishop's reply was studied by the cardinal-members of the doctrinal congregation and, ultimately, by Pope Benedict.

    The cardinals and the pope had said Bishop Fellay's first response, which was submitted in January, was "not sufficient to overcome the doctrinal problems that are at the basis of the fracture between the Holy See and the society."
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    Offline Matthew

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    Vatican says Doctrinal Difficulties prevent agreement
    « Reply #1 on: June 14, 2012, 03:52:24 PM »
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  • So, let me get this straight --

    The Vatican is holding firm, while the modern SSPX is caving?

    Since when did the SSPX have any heresies/doctrinal issues to work out? The SSPX has no extra doctrines except those taught by the Catholic Church for centuries. Rome is the one that has doctrinal issues at variance with Catholicism.

    So instead of the SSPX insisting on Rome cleaning up its Doctrinal act, Rome is saying the SSPX has to change its doctrines to become Catholic!

    Irony of ironies -- completely messed up!
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    Offline TKGS

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    Vatican says Doctrinal Difficulties prevent agreement
    « Reply #2 on: June 14, 2012, 04:37:38 PM »
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  • Quote
    "The desire for further clarifications could lead to a new phase of discussions," the SSPX said.


    Here we go again.

    More secret discussions.  More rumors because only a little bit gets leaked.  More uncertainty in the SSPX community.

    Meanwhile, more "troublesome" priests have been eliminated from the ranks.

    I'm convinced more than ever that it is only a matter of time.  Bishop Fellay simply jumped too early.  

    Prediction:  By the end of 2012, Bishop Williamson will have been formally ejected from the SSPX.  How that affects the other two bishops, I don't know.  Then we will be going through this whole affair again in the spring of 2013.  Only this time, there will be virtually no opposition from within the ranks.

    Offline Kelley

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    Vatican says Doctrinal Difficulties prevent agreement
    « Reply #3 on: June 14, 2012, 05:17:39 PM »
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  • Quote from: The Vatican
    "...(the prelature proposal) was presented so that if the doctrinal issue is resolved,
      the canonical part is ready..."
    [/size]




    "All will be yours if you worship me!..."[/b]

    Offline Lucca Back

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    Vatican says Doctrinal Difficulties prevent agreement
    « Reply #4 on: June 14, 2012, 07:04:10 PM »
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  • Your Excellency Bishop Fellay, you are really addicted to this 'Deal of Decade'.


    Not Doctrinal Difficulties.

     Doctrinal Differencies.


    You are not deserved to be the boss of the traditional priests.


    Offline Incredulous

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    Vatican says Doctrinal Difficulties prevent agreement
    « Reply #5 on: June 14, 2012, 07:27:53 PM »
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  • Quote from: Kelley
    Quote from: The Vatican
    "...(the prelature proposal) was presented so that if the doctrinal issue is resolved,
      the canonical part is ready..."
    [/size]




    "All will be yours if you worship me!..."[/b]





    This image of the devil's temptation is most appropriate!  

    Will Bp. Fellay sell his soul to reach "full communion" with newRome?
    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi

    Offline Diego

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    Vatican says Doctrinal Difficulties prevent agreement
    « Reply #6 on: June 14, 2012, 08:04:37 PM »
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  • Quote from: Kelley
    Quote from: The Vatican
    "...(the prelature proposal) was presented so that if the doctrinal issue is resolved,
      the canonical part is ready..."
    [/size]




    "All will be yours if you worship me!..."[/b]


    Perfect analogy!

    Offline s2srea

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    Vatican says Doctrinal Difficulties prevent agreement
    « Reply #7 on: June 14, 2012, 08:28:00 PM »
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  • Deo Gratias! May God never have the SSPX underneath an NewRome! And if she is ever to do so, may ought do as her founded instructed: "I teach you the truth. Follow it as long as I teach it. But if the day comes that I don't teach it anymore, then abandon me; for we must be followers of the truth, followers of the Faith". And may we follow those words bishop Tisser: "The status being proposed, a Personal Prelature, similar to that of Opus Dei, is a statute for a state of peace. But now we are in a state of war in the Church. It would be a contradiction to want to "regularize the war".


    Offline AJNC

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    Vatican says Doctrinal Difficulties prevent agreement
    « Reply #8 on: June 15, 2012, 01:42:53 AM »
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  • Quote from: Matthew
    SSPX says doctrinal difficulties could prolong talks with Vatican


    Maybe prolonged by a few hours or days. BF will only consult Frs Pfluger, Nely, Schmidberger, Lorans, Celier, Rostand and Wailliez and Vernoy. In fact he may not even do that as they have probably agreed in advance to whatever he decides.

    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Vatican says Doctrinal Difficulties prevent agreement
    « Reply #9 on: June 15, 2012, 02:04:50 AM »
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  • For all those asking that Bishop Fellay is replaced, here's the answer:

    Quote
    Also, Bishop Fellay was given a draft docuмent "proposing a personal prelature as the most appropriate instrument for any future canonical recognition of the society," it said.

    A personal prelature is a church jurisdiction without geographical boundaries designed to carry out particular pastoral initiatives. It is headed by a prelate, who is appointed by the pope; currently the church's only personal prelature is Opus Dei.


    SSPX becomes a Personal Prelature, and the Pope appoints its prelate, but you
    can put all your eggs in this basket: the prelate will NOT be +Fellay.

    It would probably be a bishop that has never been associated with the SSPX.
    And he would then proceed to usher in the Novus Ordo show like a circus
    with a road show.
    .--. .-.-.- ... .-.-.- ..-. --- .-. - .... . -.- .. -. --. -.. --- -- --..-- - .... . .--. --- .-- . .-. .- -. -.. -....- -....- .--- ..- ... - -.- .. -.. -.. .. -. --. .-.-.