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Author Topic: Vatican Bank has list of SSPX parishioners, what they donate annually  (Read 3506 times)

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Offline Matthew

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A priest with Roman connections received a call from someone at the Vatican Bank.

He told the priest he has a list of SSPX parishioners at each SSPX chapel, with dollar amounts of how much they donate annually, and more.



A bit mind-blowing, don't you think?
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Offline PerEvangelicaDicta

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Vatican Bank has list of SSPX parishioners, what they donate annually
« Reply #1 on: May 20, 2015, 11:33:11 AM »
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  • If true, this has many layers of intrigue; such as, the fact that that information had to be provided by Society authorities to Rome.  It stands to reason that aspect would be part and parcel of the acquisition.

    How can we verify this information, Matthew?  Or are you confident in the source?


    Offline Matthew

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    Vatican Bank has list of SSPX parishioners, what they donate annually
    « Reply #2 on: May 20, 2015, 11:34:56 AM »
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  • Now if the Vatican Bank has this kind of information about SSPX parishioners, it means that someone gave them that information.

    This not only proves that a deal is in the works (discussing the "assets" of the "company" to be "acquired"), but a rather mercenary one at that!

    This is much worse than "We'll stop criticizing Vatican II, and you give us canonical jurisdiction".

    When money is such a concern, it suggests corruption on one or both sides!
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    Offline Meg

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    Vatican Bank has list of SSPX parishioners, what they donate annually
    « Reply #3 on: May 20, 2015, 11:35:44 AM »
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  • Don't bank auditors have access to personal information, including spending habits? How would someone at the Vatican bank know about this?
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Matthew

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    Vatican Bank has list of SSPX parishioners, what they donate annually
    « Reply #4 on: May 20, 2015, 11:39:05 AM »
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  • Quote from: PerEvangelicaDicta
    If true, this has many layers of intrigue; such as, the fact that that information had to be provided by Society authorities to Rome.  It stands to reason that aspect would be part and parcel of the acquisition.

    How can we verify this information, Matthew?  Or are you confident in the source?


    The source is a priest. But a rather unique priest, so I can't say a lot about him or everyone will know who it is. I'd have to ask him if I can give away information about him (for example).

    I understand it's much more valuable to have verifiable information, but sometimes you get "bonus" information like this whose source must remain anonymous. And yes, that means you can treat the information as you will. Many will be forced to ignore or dismiss this report. So be it. Nothing I can do about that.

    But for others, it will be another piece of the puzzle, albeit a "less than 100% certain" one, which will nevertheless help to form a big picture.

    When I hear 5 anonymous reports that agree with each other, from completely different sources, I'm inclined to believe something. Know what I mean? So even unsubstantiated, anonymous reports can be useful.

    Just write this one in pencil on your "SSPX problems" list.
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    Offline Matthew

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    Vatican Bank has list of SSPX parishioners, what they donate annually
    « Reply #5 on: May 20, 2015, 11:44:50 AM »
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  • I can tell you that the SSPX recently upgraded its Accounting practices to be much more centralized.

    Every chapel uses the same software, the same procedures, etc. Every week all information is uploaded to the Hive.

    The Hive knows all details about all chapels, in near real-time. Bishop Fellay, IF HE WANTED TO, could rig a device to his computer that would ring a bell and flash a red light if any chapel's income dipped by more than 5% on a given Sunday. You can see how this could be useful.

    Why did the SSPX suddenly want to be so "corporation-like" when it comes to accounting? The old system was good enough for decades. But everything is professional and centralized now, as of only a few years ago.

    And this much I know first-hand.

    I got to read the new "rules" and detailed procedural changes from SSPX headquarters. They decided to stop trusting anyone, and started requiring 3 un-related people to count the money, they mandated when it would be deposited, they started using special "tamper-proof" bags for the money, etc.

    They wouldn't care if the person counting the money founded the chapel in question 30 years ago with their own life savings. No more trust. Everything by the book.

    The SSPX has grown too big. They have become a large, international greedy corporation. They have lost it.
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    Offline saintalice

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    Vatican Bank has list of SSPX parishioners, what they donate annually
    « Reply #6 on: May 20, 2015, 12:24:01 PM »
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  • Unless a person donates by check there is no record of what each person donates as SSPX chapels don't use the envelope system like the Novus Ordo.  I used to donate with both check and cash but mainly cash so my year-end contribution statement only indicated my check donations.

    The Vatican Bank (and each diocese and archdiocese for that matter) may have a list of names of SSPX parishioners but as far as contributions I think it is more likely that they (Vatican and each diocese/archdiocese) have a list of total contributions of each chapel, not individual donations, as those would not be accurate.  

    Either way it's....interesting.  *sigh*

    Offline Capt McQuigg

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    Vatican Bank has list of SSPX parishioners, what they donate annually
    « Reply #7 on: May 20, 2015, 12:37:31 PM »
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  • I wouldn't really worry so much about this.  It's pretty extensive as far as bank auditing goes but the Vatican has a lot of diplomatic "pull" and the Vatican Bank is probably just as sophisticated as any bank out there in the world.  Checks all have routing numbers on them in addition to account numbers and identifying factors printed on the check.  Each SSPX chapel has an account at a local bank and probably some streamlined info to SSPX headquarters.  

    The info could be gathered by any bank examiner and there are probably laws and bylaws for church activity to maintain tax free status.  So gathering the names of donors to each SSPX chapel would be something the Vatican would be interested in, if only to write each one of us a canonical warning letter some time in the future.  Remember how Archbishop Mueller stated, after negotiations stalled, that he was going to consider writing letters to each individual priest.

    Then again, using the "crass side of my brain" the Vatican or the SSPX could be using amounts of donations as a bargaining chip.  One negotiator says to another, "Look at how much we gather every Sunday and then look at how much financial dire straits the dioceses are in and these SSPX chapels could be donating to the local diocese if you just give us what we want."

    With the advances in accounting technology and tracking devices, finding out the names and amounts donated weekly would be a pretty simple task for any investigator or auditor.



    Offline JPaul

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    Vatican Bank has list of SSPX parishioners, what they donate annually
    « Reply #8 on: May 20, 2015, 05:43:05 PM »
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  • Quote
    The SSPX has grown too big. They have become a large, international greedy corporation. They have lost it.


    The inception of the Krah era, stage left enter the bankers and financiers,.....stage right enter the architects, and public relations dons,.........we too now have the cult of mammon........................

    Offline saintalice

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    Vatican Bank has list of SSPX parishioners, what they donate annually
    « Reply #9 on: May 20, 2015, 06:07:45 PM »
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  • This priest must have contacted the IOR first, and someone in turn called him back (their phone number is on their web site https://www.ior.va/en-us/contact.aspx).  Why would the IOR just out of the blue contact this priest unless his "Roman connection" is a friend in Rome and works at the IOR.  If that is the case then he does indeed have "connections."  Is your source an SSPX priest Matthew?  Can you tell us that much?  Or no?  I don't want to get him in trouble, I'm just curious.  

    Offline trento

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    Vatican Bank has list of SSPX parishioners, what they donate annually
    « Reply #10 on: May 20, 2015, 09:29:50 PM »
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  • This is only possible if the donor specifically mentioned their name on an envelope or something. It would be impossible to keep track for non-labelled cash donations via the collection basket.


    Offline JPM

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    Vatican Bank has list of SSPX parishioners, what they donate annually
    « Reply #11 on: May 21, 2015, 12:27:41 PM »
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  • Quote from: Matthew
    I can tell you that the SSPX recently upgraded its Accounting practices to be much more centralized.

    Every chapel uses the same software, the same procedures, etc. Every week all information is uploaded to the Hive.

    The Hive knows all details about all chapels, in near real-time. Bishop Fellay, IF HE WANTED TO, could rig a device to his computer that would ring a bell and flash a red light if any chapel's income dipped by more than 5% on a given Sunday. You can see how this could be useful.

    Why did the SSPX suddenly want to be so "corporation-like" when it comes to accounting? The old system was good enough for decades. But everything is professional and centralized now, as of only a few years ago.

    And this much I know first-hand.

    I got to read the new "rules" and detailed procedural changes from SSPX headquarters. They decided to stop trusting anyone, and started requiring 3 un-related people to count the money, they mandated when it would be deposited, they started using special "tamper-proof" bags for the money, etc.

    They wouldn't care if the person counting the money founded the chapel in question 30 years ago with their own life savings. No more trust. Everything by the book.

    The SSPX has grown too big. They have become a large, international greedy corporation. They have lost it.


    I know exactly the changes to which you are referring but I disagree.  IMHO the professional and centralized accounting procedures were long overdue.  I get what you are saying about not trusting anyone, but when someone you believe to be trustworthy steals from the church, well, it's time to put in some safeguards. Or, if a treasurer (well-intentioned though he may be), doesn't take care of business with the IRS that is a problem which professional oversight would have prevented.

    Judgement fails, but strict application of reasonable procedures rarely does. It removes subjectivity. This is a good practice for any organization with regional "affiliates".

    Offline JPaul

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    Vatican Bank has list of SSPX parishioners, what they donate annually
    « Reply #12 on: May 21, 2015, 01:03:30 PM »
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  • Menzingen is concerned primarily with gaining and exercising control and bringing all under their scrutinizing eye. Managing assets, properties, investments, and developments demand this.
    There is no room for trust in an international corporate entity, as such businesses operate under the rules and procedures of the world, and not Catholic niceties.