Author Topic: Valid SSPX-SO Priestly Ordinations (Read 9630 times)

JuanDiego · « **on:** November 11, 2012, 10:58:23 AM »

Quote from: Ferdinand

Please Verify if Possible (Note: Not interested in opinions).

Has Fr. Zigrang been "conditionally" ordained in the certifiably valid Catholic Rite of Ordination, by a Bishop who was consecrated in the certifiably valid Catholic Rite of Consecration (i.e. pre-Bugnini 1968)? I understand he is a fine man, but I would like to have certitude that he is indeed a Priest. Kansas City was dumb to our inquiry.

Please verify if Fr. Voigt was conditionally ordained as well. I met him on a couple of occasions and I know he was trying to personally remove the doubt and have a valid Bishop conditionally ordain him.

Does anyone know what year Fr. Ringrose was ordained?

Last but not least, does anyone know if Fr. Gruner ever addressed his ordination details (clouded in secrecy as to rite)? I could never get a straight answer out of him.

Sorry for the discordant note but we are talking about the Sacraments,
-Ferdinand

I didn't see that anyone ever answered this. If it was could you please direct me to that? Even though it is a bit awkward to bring this up, it seems quite important.

Sigismund · « **Reply #1 on:** November 11, 2012, 10:10:33 PM »

The SSPX does not routinely re-ordain priests ordained in the NO, do they?

Neil Obstat · « **Reply #2 on:** November 11, 2012, 10:48:17 PM »

Quote from: Sigismund

The SSPX does not routinely re-ordain priests ordained in the NO, do they?

Under whose judgment should they "routinely re-ordain priests" anyway?

If they were concerned with Christians' baptisms being invalid, would they
"routinely re-baptize" Christians?

Are you aware that both Baptism and Holy Orders are sacraments that cannot
be repeated without grave sacrilege? Are you recommending that taking the
chance of commission of grave sacrilege is a reasonable risk?

joe17 · « **Reply #3 on:** November 11, 2012, 11:55:37 PM »

Juan D,

Last I heard, there is still a cloud over Fr Voigt and whether or not he has been conditionally ordained. One would think that now that he is not dealing with the Society that he could be ordained in the traditional rite by Bishop Williamson. This would be welcome news for many.
Neil,
It is only sacriligeous if one has no reason to doubt the ordination. With the NO rite, there is sufficient doubt on the priestly, and even moreso with the changes to the bishop's rite.
By the way, Fr Ringrose was conditionally ordained by Archbishop Lefebvre in the 80's, he having been a NO priest ordained in the 70's.
I have not had any info if Fr Zigrang has taken such a step.
By the way, in case you have never seen it, take a look at http://www.sspxwatch.com It talks about this stuff and would like to have any accurate information so the public could be informed.

Joe

MaterDominici · « **Reply #4 on:** November 12, 2012, 12:07:55 AM »

This was posted on IA somewhat recently.

Quote

Dear Tim,

When I came to Pius X Society I was required to present the ordination ceremony, the docuмents concerning the ordination and the statements
from the Salesian Society. All of which were evaluated by Bishop Fellay and Fr. John Fullerton, the District Superior. They were satisfied that the
ordination which I had received lacked nothing of the essense for the priesthood so that they did not require or ask me to be conditional(ly) re-ordained.
In the aftermath of that I began to find traditionalist that question every ordination and so they caused doubts in the minds of the faithful. Since I recognized
this as a problem I quietly went through the simple ceremony to be conditionally reordained.......
I don't spread this around because I don't believe my personal life is the business of the world. Also I had the opportunity to study at Winona for the year and to be able to practice and appreciate all the aspects of the true and legitimate Holy Mass.
As you know I was asked to work with Fr. Grunner prior to my entrance into the Pius X apostolate in Syracuse, New York.
I have always had a good relationship with Frs. Joe and Tim Pfeiffer and believe them to be holy and apostolic priests who will not give in to the liberalism of the world. So now I am working at the chapel on the Pfeiffer grounds and in the battle for the faith. I suspect that the IA site is questioning my ordination and the validity of the masses which I offer. I have not read it but I suspect it since I have had someone put my writings on that site. Your email leads me to believe it even more. Am I correct?

IN the Hearts of Jesus, Mary and Joseph,

Fr. Voigt

SeanJohnson · « **Reply #5 on:** November 12, 2012, 06:59:37 AM »

But he will not say when, where, or by whom.

Until that information comes to public light, I would reserve judgment.

Ordination details are supposed to be public, as the ministry is public, and all the more important when we are talking about an independent.

Quote from: MaterDominici

This was posted on IA somewhat recently.

Quote
Dear Tim,

When I came to Pius X Society I was required to present the ordination ceremony, the docuмents concerning the ordination and the statements
from the Salesian Society. All of which were evaluated by Bishop Fellay and Fr. John Fullerton, the District Superior. They were satisfied that the
ordination which I had received lacked nothing of the essense for the priesthood so that they did not require or ask me to be conditional(ly) re-ordained.
In the aftermath of that I began to find traditionalist that question every ordination and so they caused doubts in the minds of the faithful. Since I recognized
this as a problem I quietly went through the simple ceremony to be conditionally reordained.......
I don't spread this around because I don't believe my personal life is the business of the world. Also I had the opportunity to study at Winona for the year and to be able to practice and appreciate all the aspects of the true and legitimate Holy Mass.
As you know I was asked to work with Fr. Grunner prior to my entrance into the Pius X apostolate in Syracuse, New York.
I have always had a good relationship with Frs. Joe and Tim Pfeiffer and believe them to be holy and apostolic priests who will not give in to the liberalism of the world. So now I am working at the chapel on the Pfeiffer grounds and in the battle for the faith. I suspect that the IA site is questioning my ordination and the validity of the masses which I offer. I have not read it but I suspect it since I have had someone put my writings on that site. Your email leads me to believe it even more. Am I correct?

IN the Hearts of Jesus, Mary and Joseph,

Fr. Voigt

Incredulous · « **Reply #6 on:** November 12, 2012, 02:08:41 PM »

I didn't know the answer either.
Thank you for re-posting Fr. Voigt's memo Mater Dominici!

TKGS · « **Reply #7 on:** November 12, 2012, 02:19:38 PM »

In the book, Priest, Where Is Thy Mass, which was originally produced by the Angelus Press, Fr. Ringrose indicates that he was conditionally ordained by Archbishop Lefebvre.

TKGS · « **Reply #8 on:** November 12, 2012, 02:26:45 PM »

If the re-produced letter is truly from Fr. Voigt, then I don't believe that I would trust him. Why would a priest claim that the source of his ordination is his "personal life"? Frankly, this doesn't sound like a proper attitude of a priest. It sounds more like a person hiding something he believes others wouldn't like. I cannot name an actual traditional Catholic who would object to, say, the ordination by a Society bishop. On the other hand, I know plenty of traditional Catholics who would object to, say, the ordination by an Anglican, Old Catholic, or even an Orthodox bishop (even though the last of these would be unquestionably valid).

Incredulous · « **Reply #9 on:** November 12, 2012, 03:02:56 PM »

Quote from: Seraphim

But he will not say when, where, or by whom.

Until that information comes to public light, I would reserve judgment.

Ordination details are supposed to be public, as the ministry is public, and all the more important when we are talking about an independent.

Quote from: MaterDominici
This was posted on IA somewhat recently.

Quote
Dear Tim,

When I came to Pius X Society I was required to present the ordination ceremony, the docuмents concerning the ordination and the statements
from the Salesian Society. All of which were evaluated by Bishop Fellay and Fr. John Fullerton, the District Superior. They were satisfied that the
ordination which I had received lacked nothing of the essense for the priesthood so that they did not require or ask me to be conditional(ly) re-ordained.
In the aftermath of that I began to find traditionalist that question every ordination and so they caused doubts in the minds of the faithful. Since I recognized
this as a problem I quietly went through the simple ceremony to be conditionally reordained.......
I don't spread this around because I don't believe my personal life is the business of the world. Also I had the opportunity to study at Winona for the year and to be able to practice and appreciate all the aspects of the true and legitimate Holy Mass.
As you know I was asked to work with Fr. Grunner prior to my entrance into the Pius X apostolate in Syracuse, New York.
I have always had a good relationship with Frs. Joe and Tim Pfeiffer and believe them to be holy and apostolic priests who will not give in to the liberalism of the world. So now I am working at the chapel on the Pfeiffer grounds and in the battle for the faith. I suspect that the IA site is questioning my ordination and the validity of the masses which I offer. I have not read it but I suspect it since I have had someone put my writings on that site. Your email leads me to believe it even more. Am I correct?

IN the Hearts of Jesus, Mary and Joseph,

Fr. Voigt

I recall the first time I heard about the concept of invalid ordinations was from
a Father Malachi Martin tape lecture.

He worked within a trad network to collect information on many topics. Novus Ordo ordinations was one of the things they monitored.

From Father Martin's perspective, "old scratch" (satan) is most interested in perpetuating invalid sacraments. You could say it fits into his strategic imperative, to remove graces from this world.

Father Martin said the Sacrament of Holy Orders, leaves little record of whether it was validly performed. His people would attend and observe as best they could how the rite was conducted.

From their reports, Father Martin concluded there was enormous abuse of Holy Orders within the Conciliar church. He is one of the few priests I ever heard say this.

He is also one of the few priests who ever made the charge of satanic black masses being done by Catholic clergy (e.g., Windswept House).

IMHO, I think all Novus Ordo priests should undergo a conditional ordination.
The SSPX should have been conditionally ordaining and docuмenetning it routinely.

Instead, I recall their Angelus Press article (circa 2008) giving cover to the Novus Ordo Ordination rite.

I couldn't believe it! I actually went into a state of denial about it, because I loved the SSPX and could not believe they were back-tracking on this crucial point.

If, the Conciliar Church would "bastardize" the Sacraments as Bp. Tissier has always said, they would surely not hesitiate to butcher Holy Orders too.

I later heard a comment that if the SSPX questioned the Conciliar Sacrament of Holy Orders, it would mean they were questioning the elevation of the Pope and most of the Holy See. In Bp. Fellay's anticipation of "prelature diplomacy", they were willing to concede that crucial point.

In conclusion, if Father Voigt publicly posts a message that he was conditionally ordained, I will believe him.

magdalena · « **Reply #10 on:** November 12, 2012, 05:26:33 PM »

If toward the end of time the Perpetual Sacrifice will disappear, what better way could it happen than to have invalid bishops and invalid priests? IMO, that would be Satan's master stroke.

Sigismund · « **Reply #11 on:** November 12, 2012, 07:50:30 PM »

Quote from: Neil Obstat

Quote from: Sigismund
The SSPX does not routinely re-ordain priests ordained in the NO, do they?

Under whose judgment should they "routinely re-ordain priests" anyway?

If they were concerned with Christians' baptisms being invalid, would they
"routinely re-baptize" Christians?

Are you aware that both Baptism and Holy Orders are sacraments that cannot
be repeated without grave sacrilege? Are you recommending that taking the
chance of commission of grave sacrilege is a reasonable risk?

Absolutely not. I think NO ordinations and sacraments are valid, and I agree that repeating the unrepeatable ones would be objectively a sacrilege. I was simply asking if the SSPX thought so too.

SeanJohnson · « **Reply #12 on:** November 12, 2012, 09:35:56 PM »

Quote from: Sigismund

Quote from: Neil Obstat

Quote from: Sigismund
The SSPX does not routinely re-ordain priests ordained in the NO, do they?

Under whose judgment should they "routinely re-ordain priests" anyway?

If they were concerned with Christians' baptisms being invalid, would they
"routinely re-baptize" Christians?

Are you aware that both Baptism and Holy Orders are sacraments that cannot
be repeated without grave sacrilege? Are you recommending that taking the
chance of commission of grave sacrilege is a reasonable risk?

Absolutely not. I think NO ordinations and sacraments are valid, and I agree that repeating the unrepeatable ones would be objectively a sacrilege. I was simply asking if the SSPX thought so too.

It does now.

Viva Cristo Rey · « **Reply #13 on:** November 12, 2012, 11:07:11 PM »

and worse then invalid priests are pervert, child molestors, theives, scam artists, etc...

CathMomof7 · « **Reply #14 on:** November 12, 2012, 11:30:47 PM »

I think if you write Fr. Voigt and ask him to clarify who conditionally ordained him and when, you will be satisfied with that answer.

Perhaps the Bishop who conditionally ordained Fr. Voigt would not like to get in a fighting match with the Society of St. Pius X.