Author Topic: USA Hispanics from the SSPX (Read 17497 times)

RonCal26 · « **Reply #30 on:** January 17, 2012, 09:40:30 PM »

I wrote a reply ealier to Telesphorus' resonse, feel free to give some input...

Sigismund · « **Reply #31 on:** January 17, 2012, 09:49:18 PM »

Nadie,

Thanks for your very informative and well-reasoned post above. I usually disagree with you, so I am happy to be able to give your post above a big "Amen".

I was once at a Mass (NO, as will be come obvious) celebrated by the pastor of the parish. The pastor went to seminary in Rome, and a priest from Africa who was a classmate of his was visiting, and concelebrated. It was a weekday Mass, with no music. As they processed in, some twit in front of me said out loud, to no one in particular, "I am not receiving Communion from some damned n*****. A woman in the pew next to me said to him, "Why don't you just leave?" He didn't. When the time came for Communion, this man was in the African priest's line. When he got there, he said something to the priest (I could not hear what he said) and stepped into the other priest's line. The white priest said something like, "You have insulted Our Lord in the Blessed Sacrament and in His priest. Leave now, and don't come to Communion again until you have repented and gone to confession."

That is how a priest behaves.

nadieimportante · « **Reply #32 on:** January 17, 2012, 09:52:17 PM »

Quote from: Sigismund

Quote from: roscoe
There is No Such Thing as 'racism'.

Okay, what do YOU call it when someone hates someone else because of his or her race?

Catholics should steer clear of calling anyone a racist. It is a communist method of smearing people and subduing them, a method used to divide racially diverse cultures specially the USA, and pit them one against the other.

When I was in High School I got ticked off by a black kid that hit me over the face with the shop broom, and I took it from him and broke it over his head and knocked him out. I was taken to the vice principal as a "racist", and they were going to expel me from the school. I never said a word and let the thing really get blown up by all the white teachers. Then the vp yelled at me, what's your story! All I said was: this jacket that that student pancaked with wood dust, this jacket was brought from Cuba by my father as the only "luggage" when we left.

I didn't get a chance to go any further, the vp asked, oh you are Cuban?. I said yes. He looked at me, and said, oh, went outside and told all the teachers. Everyone went back to class, and I was told to go to my next class. I was Cuban, I could not be "racist". What idiocy!

If another "white" person identical in looks to me, but an "American", or as they say "Anglo" did the same thing as I did, he would have been expelled as a racist and likely never allowed to return. When what he did was not race related at all.

This is America today. Catholics should not think the same way as "Americans".

RonCal26 · « **Reply #33 on:** January 17, 2012, 09:55:12 PM »

Quote from: Telesphorus

While it was certainly very wrong for those people to walk out, I can understand the feeling of those who believe that in the United States sermons should be in English unless the parish is specifically spanish speaking. It is a big deal for the English speaking members of the congregation to have to listen to a sermon in a foreign tongue once a month. It does feel like displacement.

I disagree with you Telesphorus. Prior to the Second Vatican Council, the Catholic Church in the United States catered to different Catholics of many ethnic backgrounds by having the priests do the sermons in their native langue as well as Catholic hymns.

My Polish Catholic teacher who grew up with the traditional Latin Mass related to me that her parish gave Sunday sermons in Polish and English. Catholic hymns in her parish were sung in either Polish or English. She even stated this applied to the Czechs, Lithuanians, Italians and their respective dialects, Hungarian, German, etc. These European-American Catholics preserved their culture within their Catholic parish while remaining in their mother tongue, English.

When I was in the Novus Ordo, we had a Spanish, Chinese, and English sermons. Making our parish "multicultural" also increased the Catholic devotions that American Catholics seem alien to. We had Catholic fiestas, especially for the Santo Nino (Holy Child). In fact, we had Anglo-Americans who became devoted to the Infant Jesus of Prague as a result of sharing our Spanish Catholic culture to them.

We had no problem with the diversity because lots of the immigrants belonging to the older generations have difficulty comprehending "big words" in English. Imagine saying, "sanctification" or "propitiation" to an elderly Chinese Catholic who only knows basic communicative English skills.

During the pontificate of Pius XII, Cardinal James Francis McIntyre (the Metropolitan of Los Angeles & close friend of Cardinal Francis Spellman) had to increase the usage of Spanish sermons for the Filipino Catholic community because of their population increase within the Los Angeles archdiocese.

Here in the Philippines, we have American and Canadian priests giving sermons in English in the traditional Mass and they don't have any intention of learning how to speak Tagalog in my family's country which I find absurd. In the Novus Ordo, the foreign Western priests speak Tagalog in order to teach the Catholic Faith to their congregation and they adapt to the locals' culture.

Sigismund · « **Reply #34 on:** January 17, 2012, 09:56:01 PM »

Quote from: RonCal26

Quote from: Telesphorus
While it was certainly very wrong for those people to walk out, I can understand the feeling of those who believe that in the United States sermons should be in English unless the parish is specifically spanish speaking. It is a big deal for the English speaking members of the congregation to have to listen to a sermon in a foreign tongue once a month. It does feel like displacement.

I disagree with you Telesphorus. Prior to the Second Vatican Council, the Catholic Church in the United States catered to different Catholics of many ethnic backgrounds by having the priests do the sermons in their native langue as well as Catholic hymns.

My Polish Catholic teacher who grew up with the traditional Latin Mass related to me that her parish gave Sunday sermons in Polish and English. Catholic hymns in her parish were sung in either Polish or English. She even stated this applied to the Czechs, Lithuanians, Italians and their respective dialects, Hungarian, German, etc. These European-American Catholics preserved their culture within their Catholic parish while remaining in their mother tongue, English.

When I was in the Novus Ordo, we had a Spanish, Chinese, and English sermons. Making our parish "multicultural" also increased the Catholic devotions that American Catholics seem alien to. We had Catholic fiestas, especially for the Santo Nino (Holy Child). In fact, we had Anglo-Americans who became devoted to the Infant Jesus of Prague as a result of sharing our Spanish Catholic culture to them.

We had no problem with the diversity because lots of the immigrants belonging to the older generations have difficulty comprehending "big words" in English. Imagine saying, "sanctification" or "propitiation" to an elderly Chinese Catholic who only knows basic communicative English skills.

During the pontificate of Pius XII, Cardinal James Francis McIntyre (the Metropolitan of Los Angeles & close friend of Cardinal Francis Spellman) had to increase the usage of Spanish sermons for the Filipino Catholic community because of their population increase within the Los Angeles archdiocese.

Here in the Philippines, we have American and Canadian priests giving sermons in English in the traditional Mass and they don't have any intention of learning how to speak Tagalog in my family's country which I find absurd. In the Novus Ordo, the foreign Western priests speak Tagalog in order to teach the Catholic Faith to their congregation and they adapt to the locals' culture.

In the little (very Catholic) town I grew up in, each of the three churches had a clear ethnic identity. (Irish, German, and Slovak). In the larger town nearby there were parishes of every ethnicity and rite. We got along fine in my little town. We went to each others festivals and patronal feasts, went to Forty Hours devotions in each others churches.The Slovak church did not have a school, and their kids went to school at one of the other parishes.

I am a little surprised that the SSPX priest there won't even attempt to learn Tagalog.

ServusSpiritusSancti · « **Reply #35 on:** January 17, 2012, 09:57:07 PM »

Quote from: Sigismund

That is so astoundingly far removed from anything that even resembles Catholicism that I am speechless.

Do I have a God given right to dislike people who abuse illegal drugs and suggest that mentally ill adolescents do the same?

I agree with you, Sigismund. But remember, this IS roscoe we're talking about...

Sigismund · « **Reply #36 on:** January 17, 2012, 09:59:17 PM »

Nadie,

I understand why you objected to being characterized as a racist in the exchange you described. It was silly of the principal to do so. Are you saying that there is nothing that can be accurately described as racism out there. If I hate you because you are Latino, or black, or white or Asian or whatever, why isn't that racist?

Telesphorus · « **Reply #37 on:** January 17, 2012, 10:03:16 PM »

Quote from: Sigismund

If I hate you because you are Latino, or black, or white or Asian or whatever, why isn't that racist?

Do you think not wanting to sit through a Spanish sermon is necessarily racist?

Sigismund · « **Reply #38 on:** January 17, 2012, 10:09:30 PM »

Not necessarily racist, no. I would not particularly want to sit through a sermon in a foreign language. I have, though, when I have attended Mass in other countries. My desire to receive the Sacrament, and my respect for my Sunday obligation, easily won out.

I am not disturbed that these people preferred to hear a sermon in their own language. I am disturbed that they walked out in disgust. I am disturbed that they were not sufficiently concerned about their fellow Catholics who could not understand the sermon in English to offer up this very small sacrifice for their good and spiritual instruction.

InfiniteFaith · « **Reply #39 on:** January 17, 2012, 10:23:56 PM »

If someone calls me a racist...I ask them why they are calling me a racist. If they can't give me a good reason...then I look at them and say "your just saying that because I am white"

Telesphorus · « **Reply #40 on:** January 17, 2012, 10:26:01 PM »

Quote from: Sigismund

I am not disturbed that these people preferred to hear a sermon in their own language.

Yes, as I said, walking out was very wrong, but not like Spanish sermons doesn't necessarily betoken "racism."

nadieimportante · « **Reply #41 on:** January 17, 2012, 10:27:22 PM »

Quote from: Sigismund

Nadie,

I understand why you objected to being characterized as a racist in the exchange you described. It was silly of the principal to do so. Are you saying that there is nothing that can be accurately described as racism out there. If I hate you because you are Latino, or black, or white or Asian or whatever, why isn't that racist?

I just would steer clear of calling a Catholic, a racist. Give them the benefit of the doubt. Don't jump to conclusions.

A kind of analogous technique that I use when people get violent with me (face to face), is to act as if I don't understand what they are doing, usually, they will just leave me alone since they see that I'm not scared at all. But if they are really intent on harming me, and anyone is watching, after hearing me be verbally abused for so long, the witnesses will testify that they would have acted the same way as I (break a broom over their head), LONG before I did. Actually in 30 years of using this technique the result has always been that "they will just leave me alone since they see that I'm not scared at all", so don't conclude that I'm some bar room brawler.

Give them every opportunity to explain themselves, ask them all manner of questions. If you finally conclude that they really are racist, by that time "the witnesses will testify that they would have concluded the same way LONG before you did".

The biggest source of a mis-diagnoses of racism in Americans is that they don't know how to differentiate class difference from racial difference. It is the biggest sources of error. Scarcely any Americans realize this. Class difference is the source of "discomfort?" (nothing in common?) between people, not race. A upper class white baptist would be more at home with an upper class Latino, than he would be with a lower class white baptist. The worst scenario of "discomfort" would be the combination of an upper class white baptist with a lower class Latino, and similarly an upper class Latino, with a lower class white baptist. The "discomfort" is mutual between upper and lower classes. The lower class Latino does not feel comfortable around upper class Latinos, just like a lower class white baptist would not feel "at home" with an upper class white baptist.

s2srea · « **Reply #42 on:** January 17, 2012, 10:36:16 PM »

Quote from: Telesphorus

Quote from: Sigismund
I am not disturbed that these people preferred to hear a sermon in their own language.

Yes, as I said, walking out was very wrong, but not like Spanish sermons doesn't necessarily betoken "racism."

Nor does it exclude it. But this is besides the point Tele. Its funny you don't call these particular SSPXers cultish in their actions as you usually do at almost every available opportunity............

Racism or not, the fact is is that these actions are not Catholic. Would you find the same treatment from those races of color, or color mixed (not necessarily black, but mexicans, filipinos, american indians, etc) persons? I don't think so. Its many of those peoples whose relatives and bloodlines have strong ties to Anglo Protestantism who seem to react in this way (some German Catholics for example) and favor and support these actions.

Vladimir · « **Reply #43 on:** January 17, 2012, 10:38:40 PM »

Quote from: RonCal26

Quote from: Telesphorus
While it was certainly very wrong for those people to walk out, I can understand the feeling of those who believe that in the United States sermons should be in English unless the parish is specifically spanish speaking. It is a big deal for the English speaking members of the congregation to have to listen to a sermon in a foreign tongue once a month. It does feel like displacement.

I disagree with you Telesphorus. Prior to the Second Vatican Council, the Catholic Church in the United States catered to different Catholics of many ethnic backgrounds by having the priests do the sermons in their native langue as well as Catholic hymns.

My Polish Catholic teacher who grew up with the traditional Latin Mass related to me that her parish gave Sunday sermons in Polish and English. Catholic hymns in her parish were sung in either Polish or English. She even stated this applied to the Czechs, Lithuanians, Italians and their respective dialects, Hungarian, German, etc. These European-American Catholics preserved their culture within their Catholic parish while remaining in their mother tongue, English.

When I was in the Novus Ordo, we had a Spanish, Chinese, and English sermons. Making our parish "multicultural" also increased the Catholic devotions that American Catholics seem alien to. We had Catholic fiestas, especially for the Santo Nino (Holy Child). In fact, we had Anglo-Americans who became devoted to the Infant Jesus of Prague as a result of sharing our Spanish Catholic culture to them.

We had no problem with the diversity because lots of the immigrants belonging to the older generations have difficulty comprehending "big words" in English. Imagine saying, "sanctification" or "propitiation" to an elderly Chinese Catholic who only knows basic communicative English skills.

During the pontificate of Pius XII, Cardinal James Francis McIntyre (the Metropolitan of Los Angeles & close friend of Cardinal Francis Spellman) had to increase the usage of Spanish sermons for the Filipino Catholic community because of their population increase within the Los Angeles archdiocese.

Here in the Philippines, we have American and Canadian priests giving sermons in English in the traditional Mass and they don't have any intention of learning how to speak Tagalog in my family's country which I find absurd. In the Novus Ordo, the foreign Western priests speak Tagalog in order to teach the Catholic Faith to their congregation and they adapt to the locals' culture.

請問你會說國語嗎？或粵語？我忘了在菲律賓華僑說什麼。對不起我國語說得不好！

Telesphorus · « **Reply #44 on:** January 17, 2012, 10:42:01 PM »

Quote from: s2srea

Nor does it exclude it. But this is besides the point Tele. Its funny you don't call these particular SSPXers cultish in their actions as you usually do at almost every available opportunity............

Actually s2rea, I think I made it clear I thought their actions were very wrong. I was even going to suggest it might be Birchers responsible, but since I had no evidence, I said nothing. I also think the reaction of the SSPX to the situation was very unfortunate and unprincipled. The fact remains that there certainly can be reason to object to having one's sermons in a foreign tongue in one's own country. That's the thing that doesn't seem to compute with you.

Quote

Racism or not, the fact is is that these actions are not Catholic. Would you find the same treatment from those races of color, or color mixed (not necessarily black, but mexicans, filipinos, american indians, etc) persons?

No, but I will be honest, I don't think I will ever be in a situation where I am in a non-English speaking country and hear the priest speak give sermons in English for my benefit outside of an English speaking congregation.

Quote

I don't think so. Its many of those peoples whose relatives and bloodlines have strong ties to Anglo Protestantism who seem to react in this way (some German Catholics for example) and favor and support these actions.

I don't think that's necessarily the case. I like how you throw in "some German Catholics"

You know s2rea, my ancestors had their own parishes, and they were forced to stop speaking their language. Let's see how you Spanish speakers react if that were done to you.