Catholic Info
Traditional Catholic Faith => SSPX Resistance News => Topic started by: cebu on June 23, 2023, 04:45:10 AM
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Are these the only ordinations for the SSPX in the US this year - https://sspx.org/en/news-events/news/live-stream-ordinations-priesthood-diaconate-2023-st-thomas-aquinas-seminary-83355 (https://sspx.org/en/news-events/news/live-stream-ordinations-priesthood-diaconate-2023-st-thomas-aquinas-seminary-83355) ? Only two? Is there trouble in the Disneyland seminary?
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Are these the only ordinations for the SSPX in the US this year - https://sspx.org/en/news-events/news/live-stream-ordinations-priesthood-diaconate-2023-st-thomas-aquinas-seminary-83355 (https://sspx.org/en/news-events/news/live-stream-ordinations-priesthood-diaconate-2023-st-thomas-aquinas-seminary-83355) ? Only two? Is there trouble in the Disneyland seminary?
Yes, the SSPX is only ordaining two in the USA this year.
There were also six deacons ordained, so presumably that means there will be six Priests ordained next year.
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Yes, the SSPX is only ordaining two in the USA this year.
There were also six deacons ordained, so presumably that means there will be six Priests ordained next year.
In the golden age of STAS under then Father and later Bishop Williamson, yearly priestly ordinations usually fluctuated betwee two and six men.
I do not see the great issue here. I wonder about the quality of the formation, not the quantity.
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In 1994 at STAS my class started out with 12, and only two out the original twelve were ordained. Fr. Gagnon was ordained as well, but he did not show up until the year of Metaphysics, year three. Fr. Darby died this year, God rest his soul, and Fr. Gorge Amozzurutia (I botched his last name) was the other. And out of the twelve of us they were the two eldest.
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In the golden age of STAS under then Father and later Bishop Williamson, yearly priestly ordinations usually fluctuated betwee two and six men.
I do not see the great issue here. I wonder about the quality of the formation, not the quantity.
I think that the question is around the fact that SSPX claimed that an increase in the number of vocations led to their need for a $50 million seminary (because STAS was too small). I've pointed out that the average numbers have NOT increased since back 30+ years ago when I was there. They artificially inflated the numbers by adding their "Humanities Year" / Minor Seminary. And even then they could have gotten by just as well had they simply built an addition to the existing seminary at Winona. It wasn't as if they had some real explosion of vocations that required the new seminary.
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I think that the question is around the fact that SSPX claimed that an increase in the number of vocations led to their need for a $50 million seminary (because STAS was too small). I've pointed out that the average numbers have NOT increased since back 30+ years ago when I was there. They artificially inflated the numbers by adding their "Humanities Year" / Minor Seminary. And even then they could have gotten by just as well had they simply built an addition to the existing seminary at Winona. It wasn't as if they had some real explosion of vocations that required the new seminary.
^This.
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I think that the question is around the fact that SSPX claimed that an increase in the number of vocations led to their need for a $50 million seminary (because STAS was too small). I've pointed out that the average numbers have NOT increased since back 30+ years ago when I was there. They artificially inflated the numbers by adding their "Humanities Year" / Minor Seminary. And even then they could have gotten by just as well had they simply built an addition to the existing seminary at Winona. It wasn't as if they had some real explosion of vocations that required the new seminary.
Yes, they paid a dear price to leave the halls haunted by the ghost of +Williamson (a desire they telegraphed to modernist Rome to indicate their change of course, which was further enhanced by relocating to near the Masonic capitol of the world, and HQ of the NWO), possibly in more ways than one:
The Society received a bequest via the Jaidhofer Foundation (who appointed Max Krah to oversee the adminiatration of the $150 million endowment), which accounted for a significant amount of eminary project funding, and stipulated the oversight of Max Krah to administer the Fund.
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Many, many thanks to Mark 79 for all of this tremendous amount of superb archiving: SSPX (judaism.is) (http://www.judaism.is/sspx.html)
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That website SSPX (judaism.is) (http://www.judaism.is/sspx.html)is not to be recommended for the R'n'R crowd as there are too many quotes from +Lefebvre lending credence to sedevacantism (we know, we know, he didn't go sede like his confrere Guerard).
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That website SSPX (judaism.is) (http://www.judaism.is/sspx.html)is not to be recommended for the R'n'R crowd as there are too many quotes from +Lefebvre lending credence to sedevacantism (we know, we know, he didn't go sede like his confrere Guerard).
I trust that there are a good number of folks on this forum who would strongly beg to differ with you on your opinion. One of the very first things you
see on the link I provided is this:
(https://i.imgur.com/M5LYWI8.png)
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Yep, I saw that too. And read it way back in the day.
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Compare to CMRI (https://cmri.org/cmri-traditional-catholic-publications/adsum-seminary-newsletter/):
"May 2023: (https://www.cmri.org/adsum/adsum-2023-05.pdf) Letter from the Rector: Letter from the Rector: The close to another scholastic year for our seminary. Five new priests ordained on May 11: Fr. Aloysius Hartman, CMRI (Arizona), Fr. Adam Craig (Michigan), Fr. Giles Pardue (Alabama), Fr. Caleb Armour (Scotland), and Fr. Matias Chimenton (Argentina). Also seminarians who received the First Clerical Tonsure: Thomas Netzel (Washington), Richard Lauricella (Washington), Anthony Alley (South Dakota), Francisco Gomez (Mexico), Lucas Costa (Brazil), and Kyle St. Aubin (Canada); also, Frater Martin Sentman, CMRI who received the minor orders of Porter and Lector, and those who received the last two minor orders of Exorcist and Acolyte: Noah Ellis (Kentucky), Franz Trauner (Austria), Leopold Trauner (Austria), and Krzysztof Handke (Poland). 27 religious and secular priests present to assist at the ordination ceremonies. Fr. Connell Answers Moral Questions: How Early in an Illness May There Be Anointing of the Sick?"
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I think the story was that there were 2-3 seminarians per room in Winona I don't know if that was really the case. Some may get along well like that, but I imagine many people seeking to become a priest would prefer their own room for the silence and lack of distraction. I thought the new building would have 120 seminarian rooms because it is the limit placed on the max number of seminarians under one rector, but I don't think there's 120, barely 100 at best.
The 2 ordained this year entered at around the time that the move took place. The move was too early, so there was much work to finish making the place livable while they were living there. That would have been hard on some seminarians causing them to either take a year or 2 off, or wait to enter, or otherwise not persevere in that vocation.
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I can't really comment on this situation specifically, but I can say as a general principle that obviously quality is to be preferred over quantity.
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I think that the question is around the fact that SSPX claimed that an increase in the number of vocations led to their need for a $50 million seminary (because STAS was too small). I've pointed out that the average numbers have NOT increased since back 30+ years ago when I was there. They artificially inflated the numbers by adding their "Humanities Year" / Minor Seminary. And even then they could have gotten by just as well had they simply built an addition to the existing seminary at Winona. It wasn't as if they had some real explosion of vocations that required the new seminary.
How many were in entering classes when we were there? Something like 20? And only a few were actually ordained.
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How many were in entering classes when we were there? Something like 20? And only a few were actually ordained.
We had 21 enter, and, if I recall, only about 2-4 (can't recall the exact number) were ultimately ordained to the priesthood.
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So, I found it here. I entered in Fall 1989, so the ordination class of 1995. Four priests were ordained (out of the 21 original).
(https://i.ibb.co/xfC0hhJ/1995.png)
Of the 4, of course, one was the infamous Eric Ensey. I don't think Ensey was part of the original 1989 entering class, but transferred in somehow (not sure of where he came from).
In the following year's class, you had 7, but Robert Neville is now an SV bishop, Marshall Roberts, well, we know about him, Father Chazal of course has gone Resistance. Father Angelo Van der Putten (brother of the infamous Benedict) went FSSP in 2004. Father John Peek passed away in 2009. Father Allan Mullan left SSPX in 2003 and is married somewhere (don't know the details). So, of the 7 ordained the following year, in 1996, only 1 remains, Father John Fullerton.
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So, I found it here. I entered in Fall 1989, so the ordination class of 1995. Four priests were ordained (out of the 21 original).
(https://i.ibb.co/xfC0hhJ/1995.png)
Of the 4, of course, one was the infamous Eric Ensey. I don't think Ensey was part of the original 1989 entering class, but transferred in somehow (not sure of where he came from).
In the following year's class, you had 7, but Robert Neville is now an SV bishop, Marshall Roberts, well, we know about him, Father Chazal of course has gone Resistance. Father Angelo Van der Putten (brother of the infamous Benedict) went FSSP in 2004. Father John Peek passed away in 2009. Father Allan Mullan left SSPX in 2003 and is married somewhere (don't know the details). So, of the 7 ordained the following year, in 1996, only 1 remains, Father John Fullerton.
There were 10 seminarians in my class (which was also Matthew's class).
Only Fr. Riccomini made it to ordination.
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Who is who in that photo? Any CathInfo folks there?
When I first got involved with the SSPX world, I was surprised at how many priests left (for whatever reason). If a business continually lost 50% of its work force one would wonder what the problem was. Any thoughts on why so many priests leave the SSPX?
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Who is who in that photo? Any CathInfo folks?
If you go to this 22 year-old issue of Verbum (ie., the seminary’s newspaper), and scroll down to the article on the “Turkey Bowl,” I’m in a few pics there.
https://stas.org/sites/sspx/files/v084_win2002.pdf
Ahh, to be young again…
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There were 10 seminarians in my class (which was also Matthew's class).
Only Fr. Riccomini made it to ordination.
Even then, when you have like 10 - 20 percent on average making it to ordination, one could claim that it's do to the "rigor" of the formation, but IMO there's long been something amiss at SSPX that way. Many of those whom you could bet on making it through to ordination end up getting worked out. I could go into theories at length about various reasons many promising young prospective priests got weeded out, but I'll just write briefly about the case of my younger brother Steve (God rest his soul). He was in that class of '96 and was a very solid seminarian. Although I was 5 years older, Steve was just 1 year behind me, since I had gone to Loyola University Chicago and gotten my degree in 3 years, whereas he entered right after High School. We became Traditional Catholics during my first year at college. In any case, Steve made it through 4 years, received all the Minor Orders, etc. and there were no issues. During the Summer after his 4th year, he went on a retreat. During the retreat, he mentioned to a spiritual director some issues he had with one Father Carlos Urrutigoity. Steve felt that Urrutigoity was a Modernist, and he expressed some concerns along those lines to the spiritual director. Although spiritual direction is secondarily covered by the seal of Confession, this director spilled the beans back to the seminary staff about what Steve had said about Father Urrutigoity. Steve was right of course, and I had made similar complaints (openly) to Father Bourmaud (God rest his soul also) and others, and Father Bourmaud actually backed me up. In any case, as a result of Steve's complaints, he was consigned to a year at St. Mary's, and he had such a terrible experience there, and also felt like they were giving him the runaround and got the impression they'd never ordain him, but just use him to work at St. Mary's as long as they could get away with it ... and so he left, dejected.
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In any case, as a result of Steve's complaints, he was consigned to a year at St. Mary's, and he had such a terrible experience there, and also felt like they were giving him the runaround and got the impression they'd never ordain him, but just use him to work at St. Mary's as long as they could get away with it ... and so he left, dejected.
I've seen this type of thing too. Baffling and just plain wrong.
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Who is who in that photo? Any CathInfo folks there?
When I first got involved with the SSPX world, I was surprised at how many priests left (for whatever reason). If a business continually lost 50% of its work force one would wonder what the problem was. Any thoughts on why so many priests leave the SSPX?
They either turn right (sedevacantism/sedeprivationism) or left (FSSP/Indult/Diocese) or laicised to get married or due to other moral allegations.
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They either turn right (sedevacantism/sedeprivationism) or left (FSSP/Indult/Diocese) or laicised to get married or moral allegations.
I've never heard of an SSPX priest going with a diocese (and presumably offering the Novus Ordo in lieu of, or as well as, the TLM). Not questioning what you say, but can you provide any examples?
There are quite a few instances of diocesan priests going SSPX or similar. Father Ronald Ringrose comes immediately to mind, and there were also Fr Terry Marks (requiescat in pace) and Fr Christopher Danel. I knew Fr Marks well and he would rib me over my Appalachian origins, quite the witty man.
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I've never heard of an SSPX priest going with a diocese (and presumably offering the Novus Ordo in lieu of, or as well as, the TLM). Not questioning what you say, but can you provide any examples?
I'd say 50-100 would be a conservative estimate.
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I think the story was that there were 2-3 seminarians per room in Winona I don't know if that was really the case. Some may get along well like that, but I imagine many people seeking to become a priest would prefer their own room for the silence and lack of distraction. I thought the new building would have 120 seminarian rooms because it is the limit placed on the max number of seminarians under one rector, but I don't think there's 120, barely 100 at best.
The 2 ordained this year entered at around the time that the move took place. The move was too early, so there was much work to finish making the place livable while they were living there. That would have been hard on some seminarians causing them to either take a year or 2 off, or wait to enter, or otherwise not persevere in that vocation.
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Oh, well Heaven forbid those training for the priesthood train uncomfortably!
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I've never heard of an SSPX priest going with a diocese (and presumably offering the Novus Ordo in lieu of, or as well as, the TLM). Not questioning what you say, but can you provide any examples?
There are quite a few instances of diocesan priests going SSPX or similar. Father Ronald Ringrose comes immediately to mind, and there were also Fr Terry Marks (requiescat in pace) and Fr Christopher Danel. I knew Fr Marks well and he would rib me over my Appalachian origins, quite the witty man.
Frs. Gary Campbell, Emmanuel Berger, Christophe Beaublat are a few examples that joined their local diocese.
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Oh, well Heaven forbid those training for the priesthood train uncomfortably!
I would venture to say that the reports of 3 (or even 2) seminarians in a room are made up. Room sizes were way too small to accommodate more than 1, and possibly 2 if you stuck a bunk-bed in the room (and then they'd be sharing, i.e. taking turns at using, a desk). Rooms there are really very small, enough for a bed, a desk, and a little sink we used to have.
Whatever the case may be, however, the overcrowding was caused by adding that "Humanities" year and not due to some alleged explosion of vocations, and any such overcrowding could have been remedied easily and inexpensively by simply adding a wing onto the existing building. Winona/STAS had many acres of land and could easily have been expanded.
There were clearly non-practical reasons driving the move.
Of course, given the fact that we now have many cradle Trads growing up and going through places like St. Mary's, one would certainly have expected a large increase in vocations ... but it's just not happening, leading one to question what the SSPX are actually doing. Back in our day, seminarians were coming randomly from here, there, and the other place. Now, from what I understand, the vast majority are coming from St. Mary's, but the total numbers have simply not increased that much from when I was there going on 35 years ago now. Perhaps part of the numbers were offset by the FSSP option, and some additional SV options.
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I would venture to say that the reports of 3 (or even 2) seminarians in a room are made up. Room sizes were way too small to accommodate more than 1, and possibly 2 if you stuck a bunk-bed in the room (and then they'd be sharing, i.e. taking turns at using, a desk). Rooms there are really very small, enough for a bed, a desk, and a little sink we used to have.
Whatever the case may be, however, the overcrowding was caused by adding that "Humanities" year and not due to some alleged explosion of vocations, and any such overcrowding could have been remedied easily and inexpensively by simply adding a wing onto the existing building. Winona/STAS had many acres of land and could easily have been expanded.
There were clearly non-practical reasons driving the move.
Of course, given the fact that we now have many cradle Trads growing up and going through places like St. Mary's, one would certainly have expected a large increase in vocations ... but it's just not happening, leading one to question what the SSPX are actually doing. Back in our day, seminarians were coming randomly from here, there, and the other place. Now, from what I understand, the vast majority are coming from St. Mary's, but the total numbers have simply not increased that much from when I was there going on 35 years ago now. Perhaps part of the numbers were offset by the FSSP option, and some additional SV options.
I vaguely remember seeing some bunk beds at Winona, but I could be making that up. It was a long time ago that I was there when it was still a seminary. How many bedrooms were there? They only have like 60-80 choir stalls right?
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Of course, given the fact that we now have many cradle Trads growing up and going through places like St. Mary's, one would certainly have expected a large increase in vocations ... but it's just not happening, leading one to question what the SSPX are actually doing. Back in our day, seminarians were coming randomly from here, there, and the other place. Now, from what I understand, the vast majority are coming from St. Mary's, but the total numbers have simply not increased that much from when I was there going on 35 years ago now. Perhaps part of the numbers were offset by the FSSP option, and some additional SV options.
Maybe satan knows how good the SSPX is, so he keeps people from entering and persevering, and tries his hardest to modernize the SSPX. Maybe the nonSSPX seminaries are too easy because they really do care about maximizing their numbers. Maybe the humanities year is an attempt to make it easier for Americans to last longer in the seminary and get ordained. I'm sure there are plenty of real possibilities that make the SSPX look good as well as bad. It could be that the modern world corrupts families at the same rate tradition spreads, so that the rate of new seminarians stays the same rather than increases as you would expect. Some families get it right and have several successful vocations.
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Even then, when you have like 10 - 20 percent on average making it to ordination, one could claim that it's do to the "rigor" of the formation, but IMO there's long been something amiss at SSPX that way. Many of those whom you could bet on making it through to ordination end up getting worked out. I could go into theories at length about various reasons many promising young prospective priests got weeded out, but I'll just write briefly about the case of my younger brother Steve (God rest his soul). He was in that class of '96 and was a very solid seminarian. Although I was 5 years older, Steve was just 1 year behind me, since I had gone to Loyola University Chicago and gotten my degree in 3 years, whereas he entered right after High School. We became Traditional Catholics during my first year at college. In any case, Steve made it through 4 years, received all the Minor Orders, etc. and there were no issues. During the Summer after his 4th year, he went on a retreat. During the retreat, he mentioned to a spiritual director some issues he had with one Father Carlos Urrutigoity. Steve felt that Urrutigoity was a Modernist, and he expressed some concerns along those lines to the spiritual director. Although spiritual direction is secondarily covered by the seal of Confession, this director spilled the beans back to the seminary staff about what Steve had said about Father Urrutigoity. Steve was right of course, and I had made similar complaints (openly) to Father Bourmaud (God rest his soul also) and others, and Father Bourmaud actually backed me up. In any case, as a result of Steve's complaints, he was consigned to a year at St. Mary's, and he had such a terrible experience there, and also felt like they were giving him the runaround and got the impression they'd never ordain him, but just use him to work at St. Mary's as long as they could get away with it ... and so he left, dejected.
That's awful. If you're any indicator, he would've made an excellent priest.
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Of the 4, of course, one was the infamous Eric Ensey. I don't think Ensey was part of the original 1989 entering class, but transferred in somehow (not sure of where he came from).
Ensey did his formation at Ecône. I first met him there when I attended the 1994 ordinations at the Seminaire Internationale St. Pie X at which he was ordained to the diaconate.
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Ensey did his formation at Ecône. I first met him there when I attended the 1994 ordinations at the Seminaire Internationale St. Pie X at which he was ordained to the diaconate.
Hmmm. OK. I knew that he appeared there at some point, I think in 1992 or 1993. It's highly unusual for someone to start out at Econe and then move out to a different seminary. It's almost always the other way around, where someone would start in some other seminary, and then move to Econe in their 4th or 5th year.
I started in the Fall of 1989 and went through early 1991 before leaving on account of SVism. Then I came back during the Fall of 1992 and Ensey had appeared there as part of that class ... though I had slid back a couple years myself due to the time I was gone.
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Hmmm. OK. I knew that he appeared there at some point, I think in 1992 or 1993. It's highly unusual for someone to start out at Econe and then move out to a different seminary. It's almost always the other way around, where someone would start in some other seminary, and then move to Econe in their 4th or 5th year.
I started in the Fall of 1989 and went through early 1991 before leaving on account of SVism. Then I came back during the Fall of 1992 and Ensey had appeared there as part of that class ... though I had slid back a couple years myself due to the time I was gone.
Yes, the order of formation sites is very peculiar with Ensey.
I am very grateful to Ensey however for helping me to negotiate what can be the overwhelming idiosyncrasies of Ecône for the few days that I was there.
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Yes, the order of formation sites is very peculiar with Ensey.
I am very grateful to Ensey however for helping me to negotiate what can be the overwhelming idiosyncrasies of Ecône for the few days that I was there.
I can only imagine. One of the more amusing stories from STAS was that there was something in the seminary rule about taking a shower once per week, and then also potentially if you were perspiring from some heavy activity. Most of us considered it a great mortification to take a shower once a week. After about several weeks, however, Bishop Williamson got wind of this and announced during his afternoon spiritual conference that people misunderstood this rule and that it was for the French, that "You have to understand the French." It meant that seminarians had to shower AT LEAST once per week (and then as needed). Nobody in the US could understand why there had to be a rule to that effect, so we all interpreted it in the reverse, that we should NOT shower MORE than once per week. After the conference and after dinner, the showers were running pretty much non-stop until Compline.
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I can only imagine. One of the more amusing stories from STAS was that there was something in the seminary rule about taking a shower once per week, and then also potentially if you were perspiring from some heavy activity. Most of us considered it a great mortification to take a shower once a week. After about several weeks, however, Bishop Williamson got wind of this and announced during his afternoon spiritual conference that people misunderstood this rule and that it was for the French, that "You have to understand the French." It meant that seminarians had to shower AT LEAST once per week (and then as needed). Nobody in the US could understand why there had to be a rule to that effect, so we all interpreted it in the reverse, that we should NOT shower MORE than once per week. After the conference and after dinner, the showers were running pretty much non-stop until Compline.
I actually heard this as well, from a former STAS seminarian. Evidently he misunderstood Bishop Williamson too. He thought it sounded pretty crazy.
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I actually heard this as well, from a former STAS seminarian. Evidently he misunderstood Bishop Williamson too. He thought it sounded pretty crazy.
Well, it wasn't Bishop Williamson who was misunderstood. +Williamson was actually clarifying something in the Rule of the Seminary that was being misunderstood.
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I can only imagine. One of the more amusing stories from STAS was that there was something in the seminary rule about taking a shower once per week, and then also potentially if you were perspiring from some heavy activity. Most of us considered it a great mortification to take a shower once a week. After about several weeks, however, Bishop Williamson got wind of this and announced during his afternoon spiritual conference that people misunderstood this rule and that it was for the French, that "You have to understand the French." It meant that seminarians had to shower AT LEAST once per week (and then as needed). Nobody in the US could understand why there had to be a rule to that effect, so we all interpreted it in the reverse, that we should NOT shower MORE than once per week. After the conference and after dinner, the showers were running pretty much non-stop until Compline.
I still tell people about this!
Ecône smelled...real bad!
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I can only imagine. One of the more amusing stories from STAS was that there was something in the seminary rule about taking a shower once per week, and then also potentially if you were perspiring from some heavy activity. Most of us considered it a great mortification to take a shower once a week. After about several weeks, however, Bishop Williamson got wind of this...
Unintentional pun here?
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The retreats for the priestly ordinations this year and the diaconal ones of last year were both preached by the black wonder boy of the SSPX, the Rev. Xavier of India, who despite being a priest for barely 10 years holds the SSPX Golden Pass - to do pretty much what he pleases and seems to be answerable only to Menzingen (Or perhaps it's the other way around!).
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I wonder about the quality of the formation, not the quantity.
I'll tell you for free. Since the departure of Bishop Williamson as Rector, worldly priests, eminently suitable for the Novus Ordo.
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I'll tell you for free. Since the departure of Bishop Williamson as Rector, worldly priests, eminently suitable for the Novus Ordo.
This is an exaggeration. There have been problematic priests even during Bishop Williamson's time as rector.
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This is an exaggeration. There have been problematic priests even during Bishop Williamson's time as rector.
Carlos Urrutigoity
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If you go to this 22 year-old issue of Verbum (ie., the seminary’s newspaper), and scroll down to the article on the “Turkey Bowl,” I’m in a few pics there.
https://stas.org/sites/sspx/files/v084_win2002.pdf
Ahh, to be young again…
I see my brother there also Sean!