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Author Topic: Update from Fellay on Rome Deal  (Read 2044 times)

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Offline knish

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Update from Fellay on Rome Deal
« on: May 06, 2016, 12:35:20 PM »
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  • As some know, I predicted a reconciliation between Rome and the xSPX by the end of March. Here's the latest update.

    http://tradinews.blogspot.com/2016/05/riposte-catholique-relations-entre-rome.html (translation needed)

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    Lors de la cérémonie de consécration de l’église Saint-Joseph de Montréal de l’Aude (11) le dimanche 1er mai, Mgr Fellay a donné quelques précisions dans son homélie sur l’états des relations entre la Fraternité Saint-Pie X et le Saint-Siège.

    Extrait rapporté par La Porte Latine (04/05/2016)
    En même temps, on voit que, surtout chez les plus jeunes, il y a un début de réaction, et même en haut de la hiérarchie. Il y a des cardinaux, il y a des évêques qui commencent à dire « c’est trop ». Ils commencent à parler. Je dirais que tout d’un coup on voit que nous ne sommes plus les seuls à protester, à réagir ; il y en a d’autres. C’est nouveau.
    L’adhésion au Concile ne serait plus le critère de l’appartenance à l’Eglise.
    Et dans les relations que nous avons avec Rome, il y a des choses encore plus étonnantes et que nous relions à cette situation chaotique. Là récemment, pour la première fois, nous avons pu entendre à Rome que nous n’étions plus obligés d’accepter le Concile. Vous vous rendez compte : c’est énorme ! On nous a dit : « Vous avez le droit de maintenir cette opinion ». Ce n’est pas encore : « Nous avons eu tort », ce n’est pas encore : « le Concile était mauvais », mais c’est : « le Concile ne peut pas obliger ». On ne peut pas obliger quelqu’un à accepter le Concile pour être catholique. Alors que c’est ce qu’on nous a dit jusqu’à maintenant. Jusqu’à il y a deux ans en arrière, c’était : « Si vous voulez être catholiques, vous devez accepter le Concile, vous devez accepter la bonté de la nouvelle messe ». Eh bien ! maintenant on nous dit : « Non, vous ne le devez pas, parce que cela n’a pasle degré d’obligation » ; ils utilisent des termes pas assez précis. On nous dit : « Ce n’est pas doctrinal, c’est pastoral ». C’est un peu ce que nous avions dit nous-mêmes : « Ce concile est pastoral et il n’a pas voulu obliger ». Tout d’un coup maintenant, on nous le concède : « C’est vrai, ce concile n’a pas voulu obliger ».
    Qu’est-ce que cela va nous donner par la suite ? On verra, mais c’est un pas qui, pour moi, est capital. Nous sommes en train de vivre un moment qui est, je pense, une charnière dans l’histoire de l’Église, dans l’histoire de cette époque où nous nous trouvons, on peut même dire dans l’histoire de ce Concile. C’est la première fois qu’on nous dit – et on le dit ouvertement -, que la non-acceptation de la liberté religieuse, de l’œcuмénisme, de la nouvelle liturgie n’est pas un critère de rejet de l’Église catholique. On n’a pas le droit de dire que quelqu’un ne serait plus catholique s’il n’est pas d’accord sur Nostra Aetate, les relations avec les religions non-chrétiennes, l’œcuмénisme, la liberté religieuse. C’est bien la première fois qu’on entend cela, depuis 50 ans !
    Et pour nous, il semble déjà qu’au travers de ces propositions, qui paraissent un peu fortes, en fait il y a déjà une ligne cohérente qui se dessine depuis un an et demi, une ligne vraiment nouvelle par rapport à nous. Encore une fois, nous allons voir comment les choses se développent ; nous avons appris à être plutôt prudents dans toutes ces affaires. N’est-ce qu’un moment ? A notre avis, non ! A partir du moment où on a lâché ce point-là, on ne peut plus le reprendre. Si on a ramené le Concile au niveau de l’opinion, on ne peut plus dire, tout d’un coup après, que non, que c’était quand même obligatoire. Ce sont donc des choses très importantes qui sont en train de se passer.
    Cela ne veut pas du tout dire, mes bien chers frères, que c’est le triomphe. C’est une nouvelle phase dans la guerre. Cela ne veut pas dire que, puisqu’ils disent cela, nous aurons maintenant la paix. Absolument pas. D’ailleurs, je vais jusqu’à dire que c’est une partie à Rome qui déclare cela, alors qu’une autre partie continue à dire que nous sommes schismatiques. Le pape ne le dit pas, il dit que nous sommes catholiques, mais d’autres disent que non. C’est vraiment une situation invraisemblable dans laquelle nous nous trouvons.
    Instaurare Omnia in Christo

    It is better that the truth be known than that scandal be covered up.  - St. Augustine


    Offline Gerard from FE

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    Update from Fellay on Rome Deal
    « Reply #1 on: May 06, 2016, 01:07:04 PM »
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  • I wonder if Bp. Fellay is just playing at being a fool or if he really is this foolish.  

    I tend to think he just wants to dump the SSPX as a hot potato and feels it's his responsibility to deliver it to Rome as intact as possible.  

    He is greasing the skids for an ecuмenical nightmare.  Without Vatican II resolved, now Vatican I might not be required for "canonical regularity" with the Old Catholics.  

    And every Council might be up for grabs except for the first seven with the Orthodox.  

    Makes me think of this line from St. Pius X with one adjustment.

    "….And now, overwhelmed with the deepest sadness, We ask Ourselves, Venerable Brethren, what has become of the Catholicism of the Sillon SSPX? Alas! this organization which formerly afforded such promising expectations, this limpid and impetuous stream, has been harnessed in its course by the modern enemies of the Church, and is now no more than a miserable affluent of the great movement of apostasy being organized in every country for the establishment of a One-World Church which shall have neither dogmas, nor hierarchy, neither discipline for the mind, nor curb for the passions, and which, under the pretext of freedom and human dignity, would bring back to the world (if such a Church could overcome) the reign of legalized cunning and force, and the oppression of the weak, and of all those who toil and suffer. [/i]


    Offline knish

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    Update from Fellay on Rome Deal
    « Reply #2 on: May 06, 2016, 01:33:53 PM »
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  • Quote from: Gerard from FE
    I wonder if Bp. Fellay is just playing at being a fool or if he really is this foolish.  

    I tend to think he just wants to dump the SSPX as a hot potato and feels it's his responsibility to deliver it to Rome as intact as possible.  

    He is greasing the skids for an ecuмenical nightmare.  Without Vatican II resolved, now Vatican I might not be required for "canonical regularity" with the Old Catholics.  

    And every Council might be up for grabs except for the first seven with the Orthodox.  

    Makes me think of this line from St. Pius X with one adjustment.

    "….And now, overwhelmed with the deepest sadness, We ask Ourselves, Venerable Brethren, what has become of the Catholicism of the Sillon SSPX? Alas! this organization which formerly afforded such promising expectations, this limpid and impetuous stream, has been harnessed in its course by the modern enemies of the Church, and is now no more than a miserable affluent of the great movement of apostasy being organized in every country for the establishment of a One-World Church which shall have neither dogmas, nor hierarchy, neither discipline for the mind, nor curb for the passions, and which, under the pretext of freedom and human dignity, would bring back to the world (if such a Church could overcome) the reign of legalized cunning and force, and the oppression of the weak, and of all those who toil and suffer. [/i]

    I don't think you can compare the SSPX's issues with Vatican II with the Old Catholics rejection of Vatican I (although I'm not sure that's your assertion). Vatican I clearly and definitively defined dogma. There's no way around it. Then again, the Eastern Orthodox Church is apparently a "sister Church" and they reject the Immaculate Conception and Papal infallibility.
    Instaurare Omnia in Christo

    It is better that the truth be known than that scandal be covered up.  - St. Augustine

    Offline Gerard from FE

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    Update from Fellay on Rome Deal
    « Reply #3 on: May 06, 2016, 01:47:19 PM »
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  • Quote from: knish

    I don't think you can compare the SSPX's issues with Vatican II with the Old Catholics rejection of Vatican I (although I'm not sure that's your assertion). Vatican I clearly and definitively defined dogma. There's no way around it. Then again, the Eastern Orthodox Church is apparently a "sister Church" and they reject the Immaculate Conception and Papal infallibility.


    This is the danger of making any kind of agreement without a turnaround in Rome.  

    Canonical regularity is a legal item, not a religious state guaranteed by God.  

    While we know that Vatican II can be legitimately resisted, Rome is not going to insist that every Council except Vatican II must be adhered to.  

    Notice that Francis is allowing Kung to have a "free dialogue" or whatever concerning infallibility?  Vatican I is already on the chopping block.

    Kung is already in "good standing" canonically.  

    The SSPX will be allowed to reject Vatican II and retain their catholicity and regain canonical unity while Kung will lose all sense of catholicity and retain his canonical unity.

    It was Ratzinger who suggested that the Orthodox not be required to believe anything beyond that which they believed at the time of the Great Schism.  

    Without declaring that Vatican II is a uniquely resistible council, it can be used as a tool in undermining all of the councils.  


    Offline Incredulous

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    Update from Fellay on Rome Deal
    « Reply #4 on: May 06, 2016, 05:52:38 PM »
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  • Another guess... The "deal" won't be announced in October 2016.
    Just before the end of Francis's mercy year.

    The SSPX "Tridentinians" will be granted privileges given to the other non Western Rites, such as the Byzantine Rite.




    But all will be under newChurch and the great Destroyer clown, who loves to bow down to the enemies of Jesus Christ.


    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi


    Offline Aleah

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    Update from Fellay on Rome Deal
    « Reply #5 on: May 07, 2016, 03:22:30 PM »
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  • Have you noticed that the list of the new priests for June all have a diocese referenced which differs from last year's post?

    This year: http://stas.org/en/news-events/calendar/ordinations-diaconate-and-priesthood-11261

    Last year: http://stas.org/en/news-events/news/who-are-new-priests-stas-8648
    I am He who is- you are she who is not.

    Offline Matthew

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    Update from Fellay on Rome Deal
    « Reply #6 on: May 07, 2016, 03:37:09 PM »
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  • Quote from: Aleah
    Have you noticed that the list of the new priests for June all have a diocese referenced which differs from last year's post?

    This year: http://stas.org/en/news-events/calendar/ordinations-diaconate-and-priesthood-11261

    Last year: http://stas.org/en/news-events/news/who-are-new-priests-stas-8648


    THAT was a good find.

    I made PDFs of both, in case either of these pages changes or end up going "down the memory hole".

    I also noticed they updated or changed the "Lord Grant us Priests" prayer. They added a new line at the end, "O Lord, grant us many holy Catholic families".

    It's good for everyone to pray for priests and vocations -- that is supernatural. It is above and a bit against nature. But marrying is the way of all flesh; the way of nature. We don't need to pray for couples to pair off into marriages. At least not on the same level with praying for priests.

    Just like STRICTLY SPEAKING marriage is not a vocation. It's the absence of a vocation. Again, it's going the human route, the way of all flesh. It's noble when elevated to a sacrament, but it's not a vocation strictly speaking.

    It's only a vocation in the broad sense, as in "one's calling".  Some are called to be single, some married, and some to the religious life or priesthood. My "vocation" or "calling" in this sense is to the field of computer programming. But I wouldn't place my "vocation" of computer programmer next to Fr. Zendejas' vocation to be a priest. The two words "vocation" are the same, and have the same letters and pronunciation, but they have a different meaning. One is being used in the strict sense, and the other in only a broad sense.
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