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Author Topic: Universal doubtful intention  (Read 109947 times)

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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: Universal doubtful intention
« Reply #230 on: August 18, 2025, 09:09:09 PM »
Water = physically represents washing.
Olive Oil = physically represents the Holy Ghost.
Confessing Sins = physically represents contrition and needing forgiveness.

The substance of Holy Orders, Confirmation, etc is NOT simply oil.  It's olive oil, for theological reasons.  The olive tree is holy.

Offline Stubborn

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Re: Universal doubtful intention
« Reply #231 on: August 19, 2025, 05:31:03 AM »
Council of Florence states:
Quote
"All these sacraments are made up of three elements: namely, things as the matter, words as the form, and the person of the minister who confers the sacrament with the intention of doing what the church does. If any of these is lacking, the sacrament is not effected.....

Holy baptism holds the first place among all the sacraments...The matter of this sacrament is true and natural water, either hot or cold...

...The fifth sacrament is extreme unction. Its matter is olive oil blessed by a priest...."
This is very clear and very simple. Florence said the matter is blessed Olive Oil. The Church did change who blesses the olive oil  from a priest to a bishop, but did not and cannot change the matter of Olive Oil, any more than it can change the matter of water for baptism.
 
So Boru, if Fr. Hesse is wrong, so is Pope Eugenius IV and the Council of Florence. I mean, all he did was repeat their exact same teaching.


You really should accept reality, which is that Pope Paul VI changed the matter to go along with a new sacrament...
Quote
Source

Please, please note that the rite surrounding this Sacrament in the Novus Ordo has been radically changed and mostly amounts now to a simple blessing (blessings for the sick are always OK, of course, but the Sacrament is reserved traditionally for those who are gravely ill, especially those in danger of death from bodily illness or injury). Some of the changes:
 
  • The primary purpose of the Sacrament is the remission of sins and the preparedness of the soul.
     
     In the new rite, the priest asks no pardon of God for sins and the focus is on the body. 
  • The matter of the Sacrament is olive oil blessed by a Bishop using these words, "Emitte, quaesumus Domine, Spiritum sanctum tuum Paraclitum de coelis in hanc pinguedinem olivae, quam de viridi ligno producere dignatus es and refectionem mentis et corporis..." ("Send forth we pray, Your Holy Spirit, the Paraclete, from heaven into this rich substance of oil").
     
     In the new rite, any oil of plant origin may be used, blessed by a priest using these words: "May your blessing come upon all who are anointed with this oil, that they may be freed from pain and illness and made well again in body and mind and soul." The Holy Ghost is no longer invoked. 
     
  • The form of the Sacrament is: "Through this Holy Unction or oil, and through the great goodness of His mercy, may God pardon thee whatever sins thou hast committed by evil use of sight (sight, hearing, smell, taste and speech, touch, ability to walk)."
     
     In the new rite, it is given as "Through this holy anointing may the Lord in His love and mercy help you with the grace of the Holy Spirit. May the Lord who frees you from sin save you and raise you up." There is no request of God to remit sins.


Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: Universal doubtful intention
« Reply #232 on: August 19, 2025, 07:47:00 AM »
Yes, Stubborn, thank you for finding the information from the Council of Florence.  Except, in Boru's mis-reading of Pius XII, since the Council of Florence was a church decision, then the Church can reverse Florence's decrees.  As she keeps (incorrectly) quoting, "The Church has the power to change that which she established." :laugh1:

Offline Stubborn

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Re: Universal doubtful intention
« Reply #233 on: August 19, 2025, 08:22:09 AM »
Yes, Stubborn, thank you for finding the information from the Council of Florence.  Except, in Boru's mis-reading of Pius XII, since the Council of Florence was a church decision, then the Church can reverse Florence's decrees.  As she keeps (incorrectly) quoting, "The Church has the power to change that which she established." :laugh1:
I know it's crazy. PPVI did establish the conciliar sacrament of the anointing of the sick, so everything and anything about that sacrament the conciliar church can change at will.   

Re: Universal doubtful intention
« Reply #234 on: August 19, 2025, 08:33:52 AM »
Boru,

St. Thomas does not say that a non-olive oil is allowed to completely REPLACE olive oil. He says that another non-olive oil is allowed to SUPPLEMENT olive oil in the mixture, if and only if the supplies of olive oil are running low.

In a mixture of oils, olive oil is still present to some degree. And it is spread throughout that mixture. So the "matter" of the Sacrament is present in all of the mixed oil to some degree. No one said that the oil applied for the Sacrament had to be PURE olive oil all by itself. In fact, Chrism is a mixture of balsam and olive oil. Therefore, it is clearly not a problem if other non-oily substances are included in the mixture. So why would it be a problem to supplement a little non-olive oil in the case of necessity? It is not a problem, according to the Church and St. Thomas. The essential thing is that there must be enough olive oil in the mixture so that when the mixture is applied, there is olive oil included in that application.

As I said, in his Reply to Objection 4, St. Thomas says that the concern that olive oil might not be available in some locale is of no importance. He says that because the Sacrament of Confirmation is not a necessary Sacrament, the recipients can wait for the next shipment of olive oil rather than use a non-olive oil as a wholesale REPLACEMENT for olive oil. In other words, it would be worse to use no olive oil than to delay the reception of the Sacrament. This is because to use no olive oil in the Chrism would make it invalid matter.

Anyway, why are you arguing about this? What is your angle here? Are you just trying to be argumentative? FWIW, Abp. Lefebvre, who you seem to respect, agreed that olive oil must be used in the Chrism for the Sacrament to be valid.
I'm trying to get you to step outside your box and see things how the Church sees things. You are attacking a Vicar of Christ over this. Yes, the prescribed and preferred oil is Olive oil. No question. But there has been a precedent for similar oils being used in the history of the Church, when there is a case of necessity. The very fact that the Church allowed this - and allowed the mixing of oils - and allowed the mixing of balsam - when St. James prescribed only olive oil, proves that when it comes to the Matter used in Sacraments that have been determined by the Church, and by the power of the Church, the Church can make modifications as St. Pius XII outlines. That is the core point. Pope Paul VI, gave bishops special permission to bless similar oil in cases/places where it is very difficult to acquire olive oil, rather than let a Catholic die without Extreme Unction. As Pope, who Christ said can 'bind and loosen', he has the power and authority to do so. And I stress again, Christ instituted the Matter and Form for Baptism and the Holy Eucharist and then handed over His teaching authority to His Church. This is a scriptural fact. From that point on it was the Church who decided, guided by the Holy Ghost.

Writes Fr. John Bligh in his 1956 theological book 'Ordination to the Priesthood': "The official adoption of the terminology of 'matter' and 'form' had the unfortunate effect of encouraging theologians to think that the essential rites of every sacrament must be unchangeable. In the physical world whenever there is a distinction of matter and of substantial form, there are distinct bodies...that form plus that matter makes that body. Hence the terminology of matter and form, borrowed ...from the physical world (erroneously suggests) that a change of the matter and form of the sacraments would mean..new sacraments..other than those instituted by Christ...".  Hence it was concluded that the Church has no power to altar the matter and form of any of the sacraments. This erroneously conclusion...".