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Author Topic: Universal doubtful intention  (Read 8552 times)

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Offline Boru

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Re: Universal doubtful intention
« Reply #150 on: August 16, 2025, 07:42:32 PM »
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    • Quote from: WorldsAway on August 16, 2025, 07:38:24 PM
    Strike three for "smacks of protestantism". I already proved it using teachings from Church Councils
    Really? - oh dear, I must be getting forgetful in my not so old age. Lay it out clearly.
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    Online Benedikt

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    Re: Universal doubtful intention
    « Reply #151 on: August 16, 2025, 07:44:16 PM »
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    • Quote from: Boru on August 16, 2025, 07:37:08 PM
    Quote from: Boru 2025-08-16, 5:37:08 PMQuote from: BoruQuote from: Boru
    Sigh. Christ defined essential Matter and Form for all seven sacraments?  Go for it - prove this to me scripturally.
    Christ instituted all seven sacraments, but with a key distinction. Baptism and the Eucharist were instituted directly by Christ on earth, with matter and form explicitly given in Scripture. The other five, Confirmation, Penance, Extreme Unction, Holy Orders, and Matrimony, were instituted by Christ through His Church, His Mystical Body, with their matter, form, and ministerial intention divinely preserved. Trent, Session VII, Canons 1 and 13, Denz. 844, 856, anathematizes anyone who denies that Christ instituted all seven, and +Pius XII confirms in Sacramentum Ordinis, para. 5, that the Church cannot alter sacramental substance. All seven sacraments are divinely fixed, binding, and valid. Scripture explicitly attests two, and the Church safeguards the others under Christ’s authority.

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    Offline WorldsAway

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    Re: Universal doubtful intention
    « Reply #152 on: August 16, 2025, 07:48:19 PM »
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    • Quote from: Boru on August 16, 2025, 07:42:32 PM
    Really? - oh dear, I must be getting forgetful in my not so old age. Lay it out clearly.
    Quote
    CANON I.-If any one saith, that the sacraments of the New Law were not all instituted by Jesus Christ, our Lord; or, that they are more, or less, than seven, to wit, Baptism, Confirmation, the Eucharist, Penance, Extreme Unction, Order, and Matrimony; or even that any one of these seven is not truly and properly a sacrament; let him be anathema
    Trent, Session VII, On The Sacraments In General
    Quote
    All these sacraments are made up of three elements: namely, things as the matter, words as the form, and the person of the minister who confers the sacrament with the intention of doing what the church does. If any of these is lacking, the sacrament is not effected

    Council of Florence

    Christ instituted all seven sacraments.

    Sacraments are comprised of three essential elements: matter, form, intention

    In instituting the sacraments, Christ defined the matter and form, because they are essential parts of the sacraments. The sacraments do not exist without essential matter and form.

    If Christ did not define the essential matter and form for all seven sacraments, then all seven Sacraments were not instituted by Christ. However, we know that they were, therefore He defined the essential matter and form for all seven Sacraments :facepalm:
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    John 15:19  If you had been of the world, the world would love its own: but because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

    Offline Boru

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    Re: Universal doubtful intention
    « Reply #153 on: August 16, 2025, 07:54:54 PM »
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    • Quote from: WorldsAway on August 16, 2025, 07:48:19 PM
    Christ instituted all seven sacraments.

    Sacraments are comprised of three essential elements: matter, form, intention

    In instituting the sacraments, Christ defined the matter and form, because they are essential parts of the sacraments. The sacraments do not exist without essential matter and form.

    If Christ did not define the essential matter and form for all seven sacraments, then all seven Sacraments were not instituted by Christ. However, we know that they were, therefore He defined the essential matter and form for all seven Sacraments :facepalm:
    No silly, we are talking about the type of Matter and Form you claim Christ instituted for the other five sacraments. May I have them and your source of reference.
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Universal doubtful intention
    « Reply #154 on: August 16, 2025, 07:56:11 PM »
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    • Quote from: Boru on August 16, 2025, 04:22:59 PM
    Show me in Scripture where Christ instituted olive oil. It is a Church decision. All Matter and Form, outside of the Holy Eucharist and Baptism, is instituted by the Church. As such, the Church can use her common sense and "loosen" an Apostolic Matter when a case of necessity arises.

    Of course, there are limits to Church authority: the Catholic Church cannot and will not change (1)universal natural moral laws and (2) positive divine commands. Eg. only a validly ordained priest can confer the sacrament of the Eucharist. Outside of this, Ecclesiastical laws and rules can be changed, and the Pope has the authority to change them. The Pope's authority is derived from Christ, and he serves a higher power.

    Once again: Pope Pius XII in Sacramentum Ordinis (4) "...that which the Church has established, she can change and abrogate". How is that Protestant?
    Let's break this down, simply.

    1.  Christ instituted all 7 sacraments.  Not the Church.  Christ Himself, because the sacraments are of DIVINE origin.  Only God created the sacraments.
    2.  What is each sacrament composed of?  Matter and form.
    3.  Ergo, Christ instituted the matter/form of each sacrament.

    Olive Oil has been used since the Old Testament times, to anoint Kings, to consecrate the High Priest and to ordain Levites (among other rituals) as part of the Jєωιѕн religion.  Thus, olive oil has been consistently used in all religions created by God, the Catholic Faith being a fulfillment of the Old Testament.
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Universal doubtful intention
    « Reply #155 on: August 16, 2025, 07:59:01 PM »
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    • Quote from: Boru on August 16, 2025, 07:21:44 PM
    Apostles = Church.
    :facepalm:  No.  Apostolic Tradition = what the Apostles learned from Christ, as priests, for the 40 days post Resurrection to the Ascension.  As St John says in Scripture, the world could not contain all the books that it would take to write down all that Christ said and did.
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Universal doubtful intention
    « Reply #156 on: August 16, 2025, 08:03:25 PM »
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    • Quote from: Boru on August 16, 2025, 07:34:39 PM
    The point is that it was not set down in Scripture by Christ - which means - it is the Church's domain. 
    Where in the world did you get this idea?  Scripture is only part of the Faith.  The other part is Apostolic Tradition, which is ORAL TEACHINGS FROM CHRIST, TO THE APOSTLES.

    Apostolic teaching = directly from Christ = divine revelation = from God.

    Once all the Apostles died...then apostolic teaching is over, and so is divine revelation.  Then the Church took over.  But not before.

    Where do you think the Apostle's got their ideas from?  They didn't make them up.  They all got them from Christ, which is why all Apostolic rites agree on most everything.  Because it all came from the same source = Christ.
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Universal doubtful intention
    « Reply #157 on: August 16, 2025, 08:04:38 PM »
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    • Quote from: Boru on August 16, 2025, 07:37:08 PM
    Sigh. Christ defined essential Matter and Form for all seven sacraments?  Go for it - prove this to me scripturally.
    :facepalm:  The Catholic Faith is not based on Scripture alone.
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    Offline Boru

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    Re: Universal doubtful intention
    « Reply #158 on: August 16, 2025, 08:09:14 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on August 16, 2025, 08:04:38 PM
    :facepalm:  The Catholic Faith is not based on Scripture alone.
    Pax, we are talking about the Form and Matter Christ specifically laid down for the Sacraments. It is only found in scripture. If you know of another source, present it.
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Universal doubtful intention
    « Reply #159 on: August 16, 2025, 08:16:05 PM »
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    • Quote from: Boru on August 16, 2025, 08:09:14 PM
    Pax, we are talking about the Form and Matter Christ specifically laid down for the Sacraments. It is only found in scripture. If you know of another source, present it.
    Apostolic Tradition!!  Which is FROM CHRIST, through the Apostles.  But NOT FROM THE APOSTLES THEMSELVES.
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    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Universal doubtful intention
    « Reply #160 on: August 16, 2025, 08:17:24 PM »
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    • Quote from: Boru on August 16, 2025, 07:54:54 PM
    No silly, we are talking about the type of Matter and Form you claim Christ instituted for the other five sacraments. May I have them and your source of reference.

    The "sacred Tradition," meaning what is "handed down" from the Apostles to their successors, is the "reference," Boru.  Sacred Tradition is considered to be "Divine Revelation" by the Roman Catholic Church.

    You seem to mistakenly think that the Church just winged it and decided on olive oil because it was common in the Mediterranean region. But that is wrong. And the Church never has thought like that about the "substance of the Sacraments," as the quotes from Trent, et al. show. 

    Just as natural water (not salt water) is used exclusively to perform the cleansing in the Baptismal Rite, so the oil of the olive tree is used exclusively in anointing because it ties into both the Davidic kingship motif as well as the violent crushing that takes place to obtain the "glory of the olive," its oil. This juxtaposition of symbols represents Jesus, the King who is murdered by his own apostate people.

    Olive oil, not palm oil or some other oil that had been in use by humans in the region of the Holy Land was chosen by Our Lord himself according to the factual, undeniable, exclusive usage by the Apostles to perform the Rite. Our "reference" is to simply look at that what the Church has always done.

    Your position is if Sacred Scripture does not contain "proof" that it came from Jesus himself, then the tradition is a mere "tradition of men."   This is a "sola scriptura," Protestantized mentality. Ironically, the godfather of "sola scriptura" is none other than Martin Luther, a man you accuse Sedes of following.

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    Offline Boru

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    Re: Universal doubtful intention
    « Reply #161 on: August 16, 2025, 08:18:50 PM »
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    • Quote from: Benedikt on August 16, 2025, 07:44:16 PM
    Christ instituted all seven sacraments, but with a key distinction. Baptism and the Eucharist were instituted directly by Christ on earth, with matter and form explicitly given in Scripture. The other five, Confirmation, Penance, Extreme Unction, Holy Orders, and Matrimony, were instituted by Christ through His Church, His Mystical Body, with their matter, form, and ministerial intention divinely preserved. Trent, Session VII, Canons 1 and 13, Denz. 844, 856, anathematizes anyone who denies that Christ instituted all seven, and +Pius XII confirms in Sacramentum Ordinis, para. 5, that the Church cannot alter sacramental substance. All seven sacraments are divinely fixed, binding, and valid. Scripture explicitly attests two, and the Church safeguards the others under Christ’s authority.
    At last, yay! No one is denying that Christ instituted the Sacraments so no fear of being anathematized, and yes, the Church cannot altar the substance as laid down in scripture. All seven Sacraments are divinely fixed - thumbs up - and again, yes, Scripture explicitly attests two, and the Church safegaurds the others. Another thumbs up. My question to you: Who decided the Form and Matter of these other five?
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Universal doubtful intention
    « Reply #162 on: August 16, 2025, 08:19:38 PM »
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    • Boru, since you like V2...

    In the Second Vatican Council’s docuмent on divine revelation, Dei Verbum (Latin: “The Word of God”), the relationship between Tradition and Scripture is explained: 

    “Hence there exists a close connection and communication between sacred Tradition and sacred Scripture. For both of them, flowing from the same divine wellspring, in a certain way merge into a unity and tend toward the same end. For sacred Scripture is the word of God inasmuch as it is consigned to writing under the inspiration of the divine Spirit. To the successors of the apostles, sacred Tradition hands on in its full purity God’s word, which was entrusted to the apostles by Christ the Lord and the Holy Spirit.

    “Thus, by the light of the Spirit of truth, these successors can in their preaching preserve this word of God faithfully, explain it, and make it more widely known. Consequently it is not from sacred Scripture alone that the Church draws her certainty about everything which has been revealed. Therefore both sacred Tradition and sacred Scripture are to be accepted and venerated with the same devotion and reverence.”

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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Universal doubtful intention
    « Reply #163 on: August 16, 2025, 08:21:28 PM »
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    • Quote from: Boru on August 16, 2025, 08:18:50 PM
    At last, yay! No one is denying that Christ instituted the Sacraments so no fear of being anathematized, and yes, the Church cannot altar the substance as laid down in scripture. All seven Sacraments are divinely fixed - thumbs up - and again, yes, Scripture explicitly attests two, and the Church safegaurds the others. Another thumbs up. My question to you: Who decided the Form and Matter of these other five?
    Wrong.  The Church cannot alter either scripture...or...sacred/apostolic Tradition.  Both Scripture/Tradition are DIVINE.
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    Offline Boru

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    Re: Universal doubtful intention
    « Reply #164 on: August 16, 2025, 08:27:12 PM »
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    • Sorry everyone, its late and we've got Mass tomorrow so I must bid you adieu. Thank you for all your posts; I've learnt and re-learnt quite a lot and I must say, it teaches one to really think. And its really nice when everybody is civil without all the name-calling. Good-night for now and God bless.
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