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Author Topic: Universal doubtful intention  (Read 7876 times)

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Offline Miseremini

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Re: Universal doubtful intention
« Reply #135 on: August 16, 2025, 06:59:56 PM »
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    • Quote from: Boru on August 16, 2025, 04:22:59 PM
    Show me in Scripture where Christ instituted olive oil. It is a Church decision. All Matter and Form, outside of the Holy Eucharist and Baptism, is instituted by the Church. As such, the Church can use her common sense and "loosen" an Apostolic Matter when a case of necessity arises.

    Once again: Pope Pius XII in Sacramentum Ordinis (4) "...that which the Church has established, she can change and abrogate". How is that Protestant?
    In this day and age how could a Bishop cry necessity pertaining to olive oil?  It's available world wide.  Maybe in the middle ages for England or Japan it was hard to get, but not now.

    For the more learned here, could you tell me in which ancient docuмent the Church instituted or established the use of olive oil?  To institute or establish means to start something.  The Church never started using olive oil, she just continued/confirmed to use what the Apostles used.  She accepted that which was handed down to her.
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    Online WorldsAway

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    Re: Universal doubtful intention
    « Reply #136 on: August 16, 2025, 07:14:58 PM »
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    • Quote from: Boru on August 16, 2025, 04:22:59 PM
    Show me in Scripture where Christ instituted olive oil. It is a Church decision. All Matter and Form, outside of the Holy Eucharist and Baptism, is instituted by the Church. As such, the Church can use her common sense and "loosen" an Apostolic Matter when a case of necessity arises.
    Missed this. Applying the texts I posted from Trent and Florence to what you are saying here, you believe something contrary to what the Church teaches. Being that there is essential matter and form for all sacraments, and that Our Lord instituted all sacraments, Our Lord defined the essential matter and form for all sacraments.
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    Offline Boru

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    Re: Universal doubtful intention
    « Reply #137 on: August 16, 2025, 07:20:02 PM »
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    • Quote from: Benedikt on August 16, 2025, 06:43:31 PM
    Trent is clear: “If anyone says that the sacraments of the New Law were not all instituted by Jesus Christ our Lord, let him be anathema” (Sess. VII, Canon 1; Denz. 844). And Pius XII said the same in Sacramentum Ordinis: “The Church has no power over the substance of the sacraments” (para. 5).
    You have taken both of these out of context. No one is saying that Christ did not not institute the sacraments. What we are talking about is the liturgical rite that confers them. Only the Form and Matter of Baptism and the Holy Eucharist were stated clearly by Christ what they were to be. The Form and the Matter of the other five sacraments were left to the Church to decide. With regards to what Pope Pius XII stated, you left out the rest of the sentence that qualifies it (most naughty of you): "The Church has no power over the substance of the sacraments, that is, over those things which, as is proved from the sources of divine revelation, Christ the Lord Himself established to be kept as sacramental signs." In other words Baptism and Holy Eucharist. Their form and matter are the only two that Christ set down in Scripture.
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    Offline Boru

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    Re: Universal doubtful intention
    « Reply #138 on: August 16, 2025, 07:21:44 PM »
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    • Quote from: Miseremini on August 16, 2025, 06:59:56 PM
    In this day and age how could a Bishop cry necessity pertaining to olive oil?  It's available world wide.  Maybe in the middle ages for England or Japan it was hard to get, but not now.

    For the more learned here, could you tell me in which ancient docuмent the Church instituted or established the use of olive oil?  To institute or establish means to start something.  The Church never started using olive oil, she just continued/confirmed to use what the Apostles used.  She accepted that which was handed down to her.
    Apostles = Church.
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    Offline Boru

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    Re: Universal doubtful intention
    « Reply #139 on: August 16, 2025, 07:24:00 PM »
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    • Quote from: WorldsAway on August 16, 2025, 07:14:58 PM
    Missed this. Applying the texts I posted from Trent and Florence to what you are saying here, you believe something contrary to what the Church teaches. Being that there is essential matter and form for all sacraments, and that Our Lord instituted all sacraments, Our Lord defined the essential matter and form for all sacraments.
    Wrong. Only Baptism and Holy Eucharist.
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    Offline Benedikt

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    Re: Universal doubtful intention
    « Reply #140 on: August 16, 2025, 07:24:57 PM »
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    • Quote from: Boru on August 16, 2025, 07:20:02 PM
    Quote from: Boru 2025-08-16, 5:20:02 PM
    You have taken both of these out of context. No one is saying that Christ did not not institute the sacraments. What we are talking about is the liturgical rite that confers them. Only the Form and Matter of Baptism and the Holy Eucharist were stated clearly by Christ what they were to be. The Form and the Matter of the other five sacraments were left to the Church to decide. With regards to what Pope Pius XII stated, you left out the rest of the sentence that qualifies it (most naughty of you): "The Church has no power over the substance of the sacraments, that is, over those things which, as is proved from the sources of divine revelation, Christ the Lord Himself established to be kept as sacramental signs." In other words Baptism and Holy Eucharist. Their form and matter are the only two that Christ set down in Scripture.
    Trent makes it clear that all seven sacraments were instituted by Christ and anathematizes anyone who claims otherwise (Sess. VII, Canons 1, 13; Denz. 844, 856). +Pius XII confirms in Sacramentum Ordinis that the Church can regulate discipline or rubrics but has no power over sacramental substance. The matter and form of every sacrament are divinely fixed and cannot be altered. Claims that only Baptism and the Eucharist matter or that the Church can freely decide the form and matter of the other sacraments misunderstand both Trent and Pius XII and collapse under the weight of Catholic teaching.

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    Offline Boru

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    Re: Universal doubtful intention
    « Reply #141 on: August 16, 2025, 07:25:24 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on August 16, 2025, 02:41:48 PM
    Wrong.  You’ve yet to provide proof for this Protestant claim.  You keep citing Scripture but ignoring Tradition. 

    Christ created ALL 7 sacraments, which means He gave the Apostles the matter/form for ALL of them.  Just because it’s not in scripture doesn’t mean anything.  Catholics believe in Apostolic Tradition. 
    Apostolic tradition = Church.
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    Online WorldsAway

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    Re: Universal doubtful intention
    « Reply #142 on: August 16, 2025, 07:29:28 PM »
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    • Quote from: Boru on August 16, 2025, 07:24:00 PM
    Wrong. Only Baptism and Holy Eucharist.
    In case you missed it:

    Quote
    CANON I.-If any one saith, that the sacraments of the New Law were not all instituted by Jesus Christ, our Lord; or, that they are more, or less, than seven, to wit, Baptism, Confirmation, the Eucharist, Penance, Extreme Unction, Order, and Matrimony; or even that any one of these seven is not truly and properly a sacrament; let him be anathema
    Trent, Session VII, On The Sacraments In Genera
    Quote
    All these sacraments are made up of three elements: namely, things as the matter, words as the form, and the person of the minister who confers the sacrament with the intention of doing what the church does. If any of these is lacking, the sacrament is not effected
    Council of Florence

    Christ instituted all seven Sacraments.

    A sacrament consists of three essential elements: matter, form, and intention.

    A sacrament is not a sacrament if it is lacking essential form and matter. So, as Christ instituted all seven Sacraments, He defined essential matter and form for all seven. Because, again, if you say Christ did not define the matter and form, then He did not institute all seven Sacraments. To deny that He did is contrary to Church teaching



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    Offline Boru

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    Re: Universal doubtful intention
    « Reply #143 on: August 16, 2025, 07:34:39 PM »
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    • Quote from: OABrownson1876 on August 16, 2025, 04:42:02 PM
    This smacks of Protestatnism.  If Olive Oil is part of oral tradition, then who cares if it has Scriptural support or not.  Oral tradition has just as much authority as written tradition in the Church.  When the priest comingles water with wine at Mass, we see nothing about this in Scripture, at least as far as I remember.  Yet it is a long-known tradition in the Mass.  And the question must be asked, "How do you know that Christ did not institute olive oil as necessary matter?"  And besides, if by the time of the death of St. John, circa 100, olive oil was the universal custom, then it is Christ who institutes the custom, because the Depositum Fidei closed with the death of St. John.
    The point is that it was not set down in Scripture by Christ - which means - it is the Church's domain. It most likely is based on its traditional value, but it was the Church that decided it would be the oil used for Holy oils. And as the Church decreed this as the universal matter, the Church can made exceptions in its use when necessary. This is lawful. That's the point.
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    Offline Miseremini

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    Re: Universal doubtful intention
    « Reply #144 on: August 16, 2025, 07:35:35 PM »
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    • Quote from: Boru on August 16, 2025, 07:25:24 PM
    Apostolic tradition = Church.
    So then the church can change anything the apostles did?
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    Offline Benedikt

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    Re: Universal doubtful intention
    « Reply #145 on: August 16, 2025, 07:36:01 PM »
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    • Quote from: WorldsAway on August 16, 2025, 07:29:28 PM
    Quote from: WorldsAway 2025-08-16, 5:29:28 PM
    In case you missed it:

    Christ instituted all seven Sacraments.

    A sacrament consists of three essential elements: matter, form, and intention.

    A sacrament is not a sacrament if it is lacking essential form and matter. So, as Christ instituted all seven Sacraments, He defined essential matter and form for all seven. Because, again, if you say Christ did not define the matter and form, then He did not institute all seven Sacraments. To deny that He did is contrary to Church teaching
    Boru has placed themselves in a serious position because the Church clearly teaches that Christ instituted all seven sacraments with defined matter, form, and ministerial intention. To deny this is to contradict Trent, +Pius XII, and the Council of Florence; assent to this teaching is required.

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    Online WorldsAway

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    Re: Universal doubtful intention
    « Reply #146 on: August 16, 2025, 07:36:30 PM »
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    • Quote from: Boru on August 16, 2025, 07:20:02 PM
    You have taken both of these out of context. No one is saying that Christ did not not institute the sacraments. What we are talking about is the liturgical rite that confers them. Only the Form and Matter of Baptism and the Holy Eucharist were stated clearly by Christ what they were to be. The Form and the Matter of the other five sacraments were left to the Church to decide. With regards to what Pope Pius XII stated, you left out the rest of the sentence that qualifies it (most naughty of you): "The Church has no power over the substance of the sacraments, that is, over those things which, as is proved from the sources of divine revelation, Christ the Lord Himself established to be kept as sacramental signs." In other words Baptism and Holy Eucharist. Their form and matter are the only two that Christ set down in Scripture.
    Strike two for "smacks of protestantism". :facepalm: Sacred Tradition, besides Scripture, is also one of the "sources of divine revelation"
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    Offline Boru

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    Re: Universal doubtful intention
    « Reply #147 on: August 16, 2025, 07:37:08 PM »
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    • Quote from: WorldsAway on August 16, 2025, 07:29:28 PM
    In case you missed it:

    Christ instituted all seven Sacraments.

    A sacrament consists of three essential elements: matter, form, and intention.

    A sacrament is not a sacrament if it is lacking essential form and matter. So, as Christ instituted all seven Sacraments, He defined essential matter and form for all seven. Because, again, if you say Christ did not define the matter and form, then He did not institute all seven Sacraments. To deny that He did is contrary to Church teaching
    Sigh. Christ defined essential Matter and Form for all seven sacraments?  Go for it - prove this to me scripturally.
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    Online WorldsAway

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    Re: Universal doubtful intention
    « Reply #148 on: August 16, 2025, 07:38:24 PM »
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    • Quote from: Boru on August 16, 2025, 07:37:08 PM
    Sigh. Christ defined essential Matter and Form for all seven sacraments?  Go for it - prove this to me scripturally.
    Strike three for "smacks of protestantism". I already proved it using teachings from Church Councils
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    Offline Boru

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    Re: Universal doubtful intention
    « Reply #149 on: August 16, 2025, 07:40:18 PM »
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    • Quote from: Benedikt on August 16, 2025, 07:36:01 PM
    Boru has placed themselves in a serious position because the Church clearly teaches that Christ instituted all seven sacraments with defined matter, form, and ministerial intention. To deny this is to contradict Trent, +Pius XII, and the Council of Florence; assent to this teaching is required.
    So you say. Bring on the evidence :) Educate me :)
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