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Author Topic: Universal doubtful intention  (Read 8013 times)

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Offline Boru

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Re: Universal doubtful intention
« Reply #120 on: August 16, 2025, 02:35:44 PM »
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  • See, you are of the mindset that the pope has limitless authority and can legitimately change on a whim whatever he wants just because he can, this is altogether wrong.

    The reason Fr. Hesse says only olive oil, is because that is the only oil that the Church has ever used - until PPVI. Our Lord established the sacraments, not PPVI. In case of necessity, the blessed oil can be diluted with non-blessed olive oil. This is what the Church has always taught - until PPVI.

    IOW, using olive oil is something no pope can change, anymore than PPVI can decide that it's ok to use milk for baptism.

    1917 Canon Law 734:
    From The Commentary on 1917 Canon Law:Anyway, so that's why Fr. Hesse correctly said what he said.
    My point was that as the Church instituted the use of Olive Oil for Holy oils, the same Church has the authority to change that decree or make exception to that decree. It is not scripture based. Water for Baptism and Wine for the Eucharist IS scripture based. Therefore they cannot be changed for Christ Himself has set down what matter is to be used. However Christ left it up to His Church to decide the matter on the other Sacraments.
    There is a clear distinction to be made here and Fr. Hesse fails to make it and now you have failed to make it because of him.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Universal doubtful intention
    « Reply #121 on: August 16, 2025, 02:37:55 PM »
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  • Quote
    because as Pope, he is not subject to this bull. Everyone else is, but he - by the power of his office -  is not.
    He is bound to follow ALL church laws, UNLESS he decides to change them.  Yes, he is subject to QP.  Your understanding is wrong.  Law is law.  A law is in force (for all Catholics) until it’s changed.  


    Quote
    So again, Pope Paul Vi was within his legal right to modify the Tridentine Mass. 
    But the new mass is NOT Tridentine.  And never claimed to be.  Ottaviani said it was anti-Trent.  The new mass is a new rite, unrelated to history, unrelated to Trent, u related to Apostolic tradition.  No one has ever claimed it was Tridentine.  That’s ridiculous.  


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Universal doubtful intention
    « Reply #122 on: August 16, 2025, 02:38:42 PM »
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  • I'm afraid I disagree. Pope Paul VI did not go against Quo Primum, because as Pope, he is not subject to this bull. Everyone else is, but he - by the power of his office -  is not. Bulls are subject to the Pope's authority. You make a good point though about how this "new" Rite was viewed. I agree - it was so stripped back one cannot be blamed for doubting its validity - and certainly calling into question the intent of the spirit behind it. But no case for a positive doubt has been officially established yet - lots of varying opinions, theories, debates, sure - which means, on a practical level, we are to treat the Mass as valid according to the stipulations of the Church. It doesn't mean you have to go to it, but you cannot publicly declare it invalid or counsel other faithful to seriously doubt its validity.
    Well, I cannot, do not and will not bind anyone to what I believe is totally obvious, namely, that the new mass was purposely perpetrated against the law and as an integral part of a new religion which, like Satan himself, certainly apes the true mass and Catholic religion, making the NO mass sacrilegious for all who go to it. Again, this is what I believe, this is my opinion.

    As for the title of this thread re: positive doubt, whereas I would love for the SSPX to make it a rule that they conditionally re-ordain all NO convert priests and bishops, you and I agree that it is only the Church who can rule definitively on the matter. I agree with Fr. Hesse when he says that the Church has always initially presumed validity of her sacraments, which is the reason why +ABL and the SSPX have always done the same, and like the Church has always done, investigates each case individually.   
       
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Universal doubtful intention
    « Reply #123 on: August 16, 2025, 02:41:48 PM »
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  • However Christ left it up to His Church to decide the matter on the other Sacraments.
    Wrong.  You’ve yet to provide proof for this Protestant claim.  You keep citing Scripture but ignoring Tradition.  

    Christ created ALL 7 sacraments, which means He gave the Apostles the matter/form for ALL of them.  Just because it’s not in scripture doesn’t mean anything.  Catholics believe in Apostolic Tradition.  

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Universal doubtful intention
    « Reply #124 on: August 16, 2025, 02:48:42 PM »
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  • My point was that as the Church instituted the use of Olive Oil for Holy oils, the same Church has the authority to change that decree or make exception to that decree. It is not scripture based. Water for Baptism and Wine for the Eucharist IS scripture based. Therefore they cannot be changed for Christ Himself has set down what matter is to be used. However Christ left it up to His Church to decide the matter on the other Sacraments.
    There is a clear distinction to be made here and Fr. Hesse fails to make it and now you have failed to make it because of him.
    Our Lord instituted Olive Oil when He instituted the sacrament. There was no Crisco or Wesson Oil back then and the pope does not have the authority to change it for no other reason than for the sake of changing it. By your reasoning, the pope could have done away with oil altogether, or made it crude oil for that matter - because after all he's the pope. Which is of course absurd.

    The distinction you are making does not exist because you are not accepting the fact that  popes are more bound to what the Church has always done than anyone else in the world. The reason for this is  because it is their duty to insure that all of their subjects remain bound to what the Church has always done. Unlike other false religions, that's how it works, that's the only way it works in the Catholic Church. 
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Boru

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    Re: Universal doubtful intention
    « Reply #125 on: August 16, 2025, 04:22:59 PM »
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  • Wrong.  You’ve yet to provide proof for this Protestant claim.  You keep citing Scripture but ignoring Tradition. 

    Christ created ALL 7 sacraments, which means He gave the Apostles the matter/form for ALL of them.  Just because it’s not in scripture doesn’t mean anything.  Catholics believe in Apostolic Tradition. 
    Show me in Scripture where Christ instituted olive oil. It is a Church decision. All Matter and Form, outside of the Holy Eucharist and Baptism, is instituted by the Church. As such, the Church can use her common sense and "loosen" an Apostolic Matter when a case of necessity arises.

    Of course, there are limits to Church authority: the Catholic Church cannot and will not change (1)universal natural moral laws and (2) positive divine commands. Eg. only a validly ordained priest can confer the sacrament of the Eucharist. Outside of this, Ecclesiastical laws and rules can be changed, and the Pope has the authority to change them. The Pope's authority is derived from Christ, and he serves a higher power.

    Once again: Pope Pius XII in Sacramentum Ordinis (4) "...that which the Church has established, she can change and abrogate". How is that Protestant?
     

    Offline OABrownson1876

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    Re: Universal doubtful intention
    « Reply #126 on: August 16, 2025, 04:42:02 PM »
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  • My point was that as the Church instituted the use of Olive Oil for Holy oils, the same Church has the authority to change that decree or make exception to that decree. It is not scripture based. Water for Baptism and Wine for the Eucharist IS scripture based. Therefore they cannot be changed for Christ Himself has set down what matter is to be used. However Christ left it up to His Church to decide the matter on the other Sacraments.
    There is a clear distinction to be made here and Fr. Hesse fails to make it and now you have failed to make it because of him.
    This smacks of Protestatnism.  If Olive Oil is part of oral tradition, then who cares if it has Scriptural support or not.  Oral tradition has just as much authority as written tradition in the Church.  When the priest comingles water with wine at Mass, we see nothing about this in Scripture, at least as far as I remember.  Yet it is a long-known tradition in the Mass.  And the question must be asked, "How do you know that Christ did not institute olive oil as necessary matter?"  And besides, if by the time of the death of St. John, circa 100, olive oil was the universal custom, then it is Christ who institutes the custom, because the Depositum Fidei closed with the death of St. John. 
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    Offline Twice dyed

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    Re: Sacraments and the use of Olive Oil.
    « Reply #127 on: August 16, 2025, 05:15:27 PM »
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  • This smacks of Protestatnism.  If Olive Oil is part of oral tradition, then who cares if it has Scriptural support or not.  Oral tradition has just as much authority as written tradition ... And the question must be asked, "How do you know that Christ did not institute olive oil as necessary matter?"  And besides, if by the time of the death of St. John, circa 100, olive oil was the universal custom, then it is Christ who institutes the custom, because the Depositum Fidei closed with the death of St. John.

    Sorry I haven't read the whole thread. But olive oil is very , extremely rich in its uses and more so in symbolism. Even the olive branch carried by the dove to Noah is HUGE... It meant the reconciliation between God's heaven and mankind. In the parable of the Good Samaritan, Luke 10, 29 - 30, Jesus mentions olive oil to heal the wounded man.  Our Lord's agony in the Garden of Olives. 
    ...5 foolish virgins ran out of oil for their lamps...they couldn't meet the bridegroom(they were refused Paradise)
    The list goes on and on...

    Don't trust the Modernists in Rome...their spirit is against Tradition, Truth - they are Taunters.

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    AI. 
    No, Jesus did not specifically “command” olive oil in the sense of a direct command. However, olive oil is mentioned in several contexts in the Gospels and has important symbolic meaning, particularly in passages where it is used for anointing.

    +++++++++
    Plus, The Assumption of Our Lady isn't in the Holy Bible, now a dogma.  
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    Offline Boru

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    Re: Universal doubtful intention
    « Reply #128 on: August 16, 2025, 05:20:26 PM »
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  • Our Lord instituted Olive Oil when He instituted the sacrament. There was no Crisco or Wesson Oil back then and the pope does not have the authority to change it for no other reason than for the sake of changing it. By your reasoning, the pope could have done away with oil altogether, or made it crude oil for that matter - because after all he's the pope. Which is of course absurd.
    You do an injustice to the Pope. He made an exception in a case of necessity. Perfectly allowable. And within his authority. And yet it has been blown up as if he had blown the Church up. To my mind, this very example amplifies the Sede-vacantist position. Super reactive and fear based. You look for any change at all and then, recoil in horror, crying 'Heretic, heretic!' You do not consider the teachings of the Church as a whole, but rely on a mysterious free-range priest (Hesse) and a former Jєωιѕн Hindu (Coomaraswamy) to scare you into renouncing your allegiance to the Pope. Certainly these two men seem to be a major early source for all these Sede beliefs and I intend to do a lot more research into their background.

    I think the main argument should be whether Pope Paul IV went too far in his modifications, whether these modifications destroyed the validity of the rites or not, and was it Pope Paul's intent to do this.

    Offline Boru

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    Re: Sacraments and the use of Olive Oil.
    « Reply #129 on: August 16, 2025, 05:28:22 PM »
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  • Sorry I haven't read the whole thread. But olive oil is very , extremely rich in its uses and more so in symbolism. Even the olive branch carried by the dove to Noah is HUGE... It meant the reconciliation between God's heaven and mankind. In the parable of the Good Samaritan, Luke 10, 29 - 30, Jesus mentions olive oil to heal the wounded man.  Our Lord's agony in the Garden of Olives.
    ...5 foolish virgins ran out of oil for their lamps...they couldn't meet the bridegroom(they were refused Paradise)
    The list goes on and on...

    Don't trust the Modernists in Rome...their spirit is against Tradition, Truth - they are Taunters.

    ***
    AI.
    No, Jesus did not specifically “command” olive oil in the sense of a direct command. However, olive oil is mentioned in several contexts in the Gospels and has important symbolic meaning, particularly in passages where it is used for anointing.

    +++++++++
    Plus, The Assumption of Our Lady isn't in the Holy Bible, now a dogma. 
    Absolutely correct. This is why Olive Oil was chosen by the Church. But the Pope still has the authority to make an exemption in cases of necessity. Anything liturgical is within his domain. It's allowed. Not because the Modernists say so but because traditional Popes say so. Regarding Our Lady's Assumption, yes, Pope Pius XII defined it as a dogma in 1950. The Church made that decision because the Church was given the power to.

    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Universal doubtful intention
    « Reply #130 on: August 16, 2025, 06:03:52 PM »
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  • I think it is a lack of understanding on all our parts. I read through Pope Benedict's Motu Proprio and it states this:
    "Art 1.  The Roman Missal promulgated by Pope Paul VI is the ordinary expression of the lex orandi (rule of prayer) of the Catholic Church of the Latin rite.  The Roman Missal promulgated by Saint Pius V and revised by Blessed John XXIII is nonetheless to be considered an extraordinary expression of the same lex orandi of the Church and duly honoured for its venerable and ancient usage.  These two expressions of the Church’s lex orandi will in no way lead to a division in the Church’s lex credendi (rule of faith); for they are two usages of the one Roman rite." 

    This would make for an interesting discussion: Are they two different rites or merely different versions of the same rite?

    Pius V codified the Roman Tridentine rite in order to unify all the different types of rites being used around the world. He said in Quo Primum it was the Mass for all time and could never be abrogated:"Let all everywhere adopt and observe what has been handed down by the Holy Roman Church, the Mother and Teacher of the other churches, and let Masses not be sung or read according to any other formula than that of this Missal published by Us. This ordinance applies henceforth, now, and forever, throughout all the provinces of the Christian world, to all patriarchs, cathedral churches, collegiate and parish churches..."

    Ok. Pope Pius V, as Vicar of Christ ,is speaking for the Church saying the Missal codified by the Church (Vatican) is the one that the rest of the world must now use with the exception of rites older than 200 years and other dispensations.
    This was because, since the reformation, all sorts of odd liturgies were being used and introduced. In 1962 this same said Rite was revised by Pope John XXIII, and then in 1970, it was greatly revised by Pope Paul VI. Now, as we have established, a Pope has the power and authority to modify rites and liturgy. The Pope IS the the Holy Roman Church and thus what she has decreed she can change. Yes, Pope Paul the IV never abrogated Quo Premum, however what he did do is greatly modified this universal Roman Tridentine rite while maintaining its essentials.

    Was it a good idea? NO! It was a terrible idea and proved a great danger to the faith. Was it heresy? No.

    But wait, Quo Primum states: "We order and enjoin that nothing must be added to Our recently published Missal, nothing omitted from it, nor anything whatsoever be changed within it under the penalty of Our displeasure."
    Yes, no one else can change it BUT what the Holy Roman Church has decreed, she - and she alone - can change. Each Pope is one and the same authority: St. Peter.

    Sorry, with all due respect to his office, I have no time for Fr. Hesse. He is a man who cannot make distinctions as I have already shown and is sowing much confusion. Tell me, Pax, what is his background? Why did he leave the Vatican? Whose authority was he under? Did he practice as a priest? What do you really know about him?
    In short, find me a more trustworthy source of information.

    The answer to your question, Boru is that the Sacrosanctum Concilium, Missale Romanum, and Summorum Pontificuм all speak of two different "rites" (aka rituals/usages) of the same Roman "Rite" (aka a collection of rituals...the Roman collection of rituals in this case):

    Here are the two different rites (individual rituals or usages) being discussed in those docuмents:

    1. the "Rite of the Mass"
    2. the "new Rite of concelebration"

    Below is the evidence that the Council Fathers, Paul VI and BXVI were distinguishing between these two different "rites."

    Sacrosanctum Concilium
    (50-58):

    Quote
    50. The rite of the Mass is to be revised...

    58. A new rite for concelebration is to be drawn up and inserted into the Pontifical and into the Roman Missal.

    Missale Romanum
    :

    Quote
    The recent Second Vatican Ecuмenical Council, in promulgating the Constitution Sacrosanctum Concilium, established the basis for the general revision of the Roman Missal: in declaring "both texts and rites should be drawn up so that they express more clearly the holy things which they signify";(4) in ordering that "the rite of the Mass is to be revised in such a way that the intrinsic nature and purpose of its several parts, as also the connection between them, can be more clearly manifested, and that devout and active participation by the faithful can be more easily accomplished";(5) in prescribing that "the treasures of the Bible are to be opened up more lavishly, so that richer fare may be provided for the faithful at the table of God's Word";(6) in ordering, finally, that "a new rite for concelebration is to be drawn up and incorporated into the Pontifical and into the Roman Missal."(7)

    Summorum Pontificuм

    Quote
    Art 1.  The Roman Missal promulgated by Pope Paul VI is the ordinary expression of the lex orandi (rule of prayer) of the Catholic Church of the Latin rite.  The Roman Missal promulgated by Saint Pius V and revised by Blessed John XXIII is nonetheless to be considered an extraordinary expression of the same lex orandi of the Church and duly honoured for its venerable and ancient usage.  These two expressions of the Church’s lex orandi will in no way lead to a division in the Church’s lex credendi (rule of faith); for they are two usages of the one Roman rite.

    By the way, the Roman Rite has another well-known rite/ritual/usage that is part of the lex orandi of the Church. Can you guess what that is? It is the "rite of Benediction." Benediction is not "the Mass," but it is a legally promulgated prayer service in the Roman Rite. And the "new rite of concelebration" was also legally promulgated, but not as "the Mass," meaning the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. It was supposed to be a new form of prayer. It was supposed to represent the Last Supper not Calvary. Calvary is the focus of the Holy Sacrifice. The Novus Ordo is a reenactment of the Last Supper.

    So, the legal language found in Paul VI's Missale Romanum did not promulgate the Novus Ordo as a replacement of the "Rite of Mass." Benedict confirms this in SP. Paul VI made it clear that he was simply adding that New Ordo to the Missale Romanum as the "new rite of Concelebration," as he was instructed to do by the the Council Fathers. What is the purpose of this "new rite of concelebration?" It was, ostensibly, a liturgy to be used in special occasions such as Holy Thursday and Ordination ceremonies ONLY. The liturgists had been planning that for decades prior to Vatican II.

    But a magic trick was performed by the infiltrators in the Vatican in charge of revising the Roman Missal. Those people removed the traditional Rite of the Mass and replaced it with the new "rite of concelebration." The majority of Catholics (the false brethren, the tares, the cockle) loved the new "rite of concelebration" just as the architects of the revolution knew that they would. This relegated the tiny minority of real Catholics (those who understood what the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass really was) to a bunch of kooks who no "normal" Catholic paid any attention to. And, as they say, the rest is history.



    Offline WorldsAway

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    Re: Sacraments and the use of Olive Oil.
    « Reply #131 on: August 16, 2025, 06:42:17 PM »
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  • Absolutely correct. This is why Olive Oil was chosen by the Church. But the Pope still has the authority to make an exemption in cases of necessity. Anything liturgical is within his domain. It's allowed. Not because the Modernists say so but because traditional Popes say so. Regarding Our Lady's Assumption, yes, Pope Pius XII defined it as a dogma in 1950. The Church made that decision because the Church was given the power to.
    You keep saying this yet you have provided zero (0) docuмentation that it was the Church who chose olive oil to be the essential matter for sacraments which require it.

    Quote
    CANON I.-If any one saith, that the sacraments of the New Law were not all instituted by Jesus Christ, our Lord; or, that they are more, or less, than seven, to wit, Baptism, Confirmation, the Eucharist, Penance, Extreme Unction, Order, and Matrimony; or even that any one of these seven is not truly and properly a sacrament; let him be anathema

    Trent, Session VII, On The Sacraments In General


    Quote
    All these sacraments are made up of three elements: namely, things as the matter, words as the form, and the person of the minister who confers the sacrament with the intention of doing what the church does. If any of these is lacking, the sacrament is not effected

    Council of Florence



    From these two texts from Church Councils, we are taught several relevant things, and are bound to believe them.

    A) Christ instituted all of the sacraments

    B) Sacraments are composed of three essential elements: matter, form, and intention

    So, if Christ instituted all seven sacraments, which He did, and matter and form are essential to all seven sacraments, which they are..then it follows that Christ chose the matter and form for all seven sacraments..because a sacrament isn't a sacrament without matter and form.

    Therefore, regarding sacraments that holy oils are essential matter for, Christ chose what particular oil must be used. To determine what that oil was (and is), we can simply look to tradition..which shows us that no oil, other than olive oil, was ever used as the matter for sacraments until post-V2

    To deny that Christ chose olive oil for holy oils and to say that the Church chose what was to be used as essential matter for any sacrament is to deny that Christ instituted all seven sacraments..because if any of the three essential parts of a sacrament were not defined by Christ, then the sacrament did not exist until the Church defined them.
    John 15:19  If you had been of the world, the world would love its own: but because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

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    Re: Universal doubtful intention
    « Reply #132 on: August 16, 2025, 06:43:31 PM »
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  • Show me in Scripture where Christ instituted olive oil. It is a Church decision. All Matter and Form, outside of the Holy Eucharist and Baptism, is instituted by the Church. As such, the Church can use her common sense and "loosen" an Apostolic Matter when a case of necessity arises.

    Of course, there are limits to Church authority: the Catholic Church cannot and will not change (1)universal natural moral laws and (2) positive divine commands. Eg. only a validly ordained priest can confer the sacrament of the Eucharist. Outside of this, Ecclesiastical laws and rules can be changed, and the Pope has the authority to change them. The Pope's authority is derived from Christ, and he serves a higher power.

    Once again: Pope Pius XII in Sacramentum Ordinis (4) "...that which the Church has established, she can change and abrogate". How is that Protestant?
    Trent is clear: “If anyone says that the sacraments of the New Law were not all instituted by Jesus Christ our Lord, let him be anathema” (Sess. VII, Canon 1; Denz. 844). And Pius XII said the same in Sacramentum Ordinis“The Church has no power over the substance of the sacraments” (para. 5).

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    Re: Sacraments and the use of Olive Oil.
    « Reply #133 on: August 16, 2025, 06:46:27 PM »
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  • Absolutely correct. This is why Olive Oil was chosen by the Church. But the Pope still has the authority to make an exemption in cases of necessity. Anything liturgical is within his domain. It's allowed. Not because the Modernists say so but because traditional Popes say so. Regarding Our Lady's Assumption, yes, Pope Pius XII defined it as a dogma in 1950. The Church made that decision because the Church was given the power to.
    Olive oil is traditional sacramental matter, but the Pope cannot change the substance of a sacrament. Trent anathematizes anyone who alters the received and approved rites (Sess. VII, Canon 13; Denz. 856). Dogmatic definitions like the Assumption are a separate exercise of infallible teaching and do not grant authority to alter sacramental substance.


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    Re: Universal doubtful intention
    « Reply #134 on: August 16, 2025, 06:52:24 PM »
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  • Quote from: Boru 2025-08-16, 11:34:58 AM
    I'm afraid I disagree. Pope Paul VI did not go against Quo Primum, because as Pope, he is not subject to this bull. Everyone else is, but he - by the power of his office -  is not. Bulls are subject to the Pope's authority. You make a good point though about how this "new" Rite was viewed. I agree - it was so stripped back one cannot be blamed for doubting its validity - and certainly calling into question the intent of the spirit behind it. But no case for a positive doubt has been officially established yet - lots of varying opinions, theories, debates, sure - which means, on a practical level, we are to treat the Mass as valid according to the stipulations of the Church. It doesn't mean you have to go to it, but you cannot publicly declare it invalid or counsel other faithful to seriously doubt its validity.
    Trent anathematizes anyone who changes the received and approved rites (Sess. VII, Canon 13; Denz. 856), yet the Novus Ordo altered essential prayers and stripped or modified the Eucharistic prayers, obscuring the sacrificial nature of the Mass. +Archbishop Lefebvre warned that these changes can prevent the priest from properly intending to offer the true Sacrifice of Calvary, creating positive doubt. Even if matter, form, and intention are technically present, the rite is illicit, departs from Tridentine sacramental theology, and gives faithful Catholics every reason to question its validity while presuming it only canonically.