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Author Topic: Universal doubtful intention  (Read 2088 times)

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Offline NIFH

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Universal doubtful intention
« on: August 06, 2025, 09:56:36 PM »
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  • By 1988, Archbishop Lefebvre considered all Novus Ordo ordinations to be doubtful.  His judgement did not arise from problems with the matter or the new form, but with the intention.

    The intention "to do what the Church does" is always presumed if everything seems alright.  The Church does not try to look into the bishop's soul.  Positive doubt arises when the bishop says something which contradicts what the Church has defined about the sacrament.

    When a certain bishop publicly taught that Confirmation does not give the Holy Ghost, Archbishop Lefebvre declared all of his following confirmations to be certainly invalid by defect of intention.  The bishop himself had manifested by his teaching that he did not intend to administer the Holy Ghost in Confirmation.

    In the earlier years of the crisis, some bishops began teaching new concepts of the priesthood, including some things that directly contradict what the Church teaches about the priesthood.  Archbishop Lefebvre publicly questioned if it was possible for these specific bishops to ordain priests anymore.  His investigations into Novus Ordo priests coming to the SSPX will have included this consideration.

    At least by 1988, these new concepts of the priesthood were no longer isolated in occasional statements by the most progressive bishops.  They had become generally accepted.  Most bishops will have had a seminary under his responsibility where these ideas were being taught to the seminarians.  Any bishop who didn't speak out for the true nature of the priesthood while the new errors were triumphant around him was at least suspicious for his silence.  These considerations led the Archbishop to recognize a situation of "universal doubtful intention" regarding ordinations by bishops un-separated from Modernist Rome.

    Can someone in the SSPX furnish a quote after '88 displaying a retreat from this attitude?  Will any of them explain why they have departed from their founder's spirit?

    Offline Colt

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    Re: Universal doubtful intention
    « Reply #1 on: August 06, 2025, 10:30:54 PM »
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  • By 1988, Archbishop Lefebvre considered all Novus Ordo ordinations to be doubtful.  His judgement did not arise from problems with the matter or the new form, but with the intention.

    The intention "to do what the Church does" is always presumed if everything seems alright.  The Church does not try to look into the bishop's soul.  Positive doubt arises when the bishop says something which contradicts what the Church has defined about the sacrament.

    When a certain bishop publicly taught that Confirmation does not give the Holy Ghost, Archbishop Lefebvre declared all of his following confirmations to be certainly invalid by defect of intention.  The bishop himself had manifested by his teaching that he did not intend to administer the Holy Ghost in Confirmation.

    In the earlier years of the crisis, some bishops began teaching new concepts of the priesthood, including some things that directly contradict what the Church teaches about the priesthood.  Archbishop Lefebvre publicly questioned if it was possible for these specific bishops to ordain priests anymore.  His investigations into Novus Ordo priests coming to the SSPX will have included this consideration.

    At least by 1988, these new concepts of the priesthood were no longer isolated in occasional statements by the most progressive bishops.  They had become generally accepted.  Most bishops will have had a seminary under his responsibility where these ideas were being taught to the seminarians.  Any bishop who didn't speak out for the true nature of the priesthood while the new errors were triumphant around him was at least suspicious for his silence.  These considerations led the Archbishop to recognize a situation of "universal doubtful intention" regarding ordinations by bishops un-separated from Modernist Rome.

    Can someone in the SSPX furnish a quote after '88 displaying a retreat from this attitude?  Will any of them explain why they have departed from their founder's spirit?
    Great post, keep fighting!


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Universal doubtful intention
    « Reply #2 on: August 06, 2025, 11:43:56 PM »
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  • Not sure who concocted this nonsense, but to the extent that +Lefebvre adhered to it, he was wrong.

    Ministers need merely intend to do what the Church does and not to intend what the Church intends.  Doesn't matter a lick if some bishops ordains a priests while not believing that ordination confers a character or has any ontological effect.  That's why a faithless atheist can validly baptize.

    Pope Leo XIII taught quite clearly that the intention is always presumed and that it belongs properly to the internal forum, but SSPX invented this fakery, the sleight of hand.

    Bogus Ordo Ordinations are utterly null and absolutely void ... per the teaching of Pope Leo XIII, with the BS from these Modernist trolls notwithstanding.  This has been demonstrated repeatedly and cannot be refuted ...

    ... and all we get is these clowns with their "muh Lefebvre" position.

    Leo XIII stated that the intention of the ministers belongs to the internal forum, cannot be known by the Church, and is always presumed to be there.  Theologians, furthermore, add that the requisite intention is simply to do what the Church does.  If the minister is conscious of the fact that, "yep, this is the Catholic Rite, and, yeah, I'm putting on my vestments now, and am going to go out there to do it" ... he has the requisite intention.  Nor is SSPX in any position to "investigate" squat, since even the Church doesn't presume to know the internal forum.

    SSPX pretend that doing a conditional can only be justified if one has conducted an investigation with the same rigor as one might investigate a marriage annulment.  That's ridiculous.  Any prudent doubt suffices, and nobody's required to spend hundreds of man-hours "investigating" something that can't be investigated anyway.

    It's entirely certain that there's positive doubt about the Novus Ordo Rite of Ordination.  Period.  And there's no reason NOT to perform conditionals on all Novus Ordo presbyters ... except that the SSPX are playing politics and subjecting the faithful to invalid Sacraments from fake priests who go around simulating Masses.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Universal doubtful intention
    « Reply #3 on: August 06, 2025, 11:48:42 PM »
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  • Misters Pieroni and Settimo will be added to the site shortly, as someone has provided pictures ...

    https://sspxfakepriests.substack.com/p/gallery

    Offline Boru

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    Re: Universal doubtful intention
    « Reply #4 on: August 07, 2025, 01:27:24 PM »
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  • Not sure who concocted this nonsense, but to the extent that +Lefebvre adhered to it, he was wrong.

    Ministers need merely intend to do what the Church does and not to intend what the Church intends.  Doesn't matter a lick if some bishops ordains a priests while not believing that ordination confers a character or has any ontological effect.  That's why a faithless atheist can validly baptize.

    Pope Leo XIII taught quite clearly that the intention is always presumed and that it belongs properly to the internal forum, but SSPX invented this fakery, the sleight of hand.

    Bogus Ordo Ordinations are utterly null and absolutely void ... per the teaching of Pope Leo XIII, with the BS from these Modernist trolls notwithstanding.  This has been demonstrated repeatedly and cannot be refuted ...

    ... and all we get is these clowns with their "muh Lefebvre" position.

    Leo XIII stated that the intention of the ministers belongs to the internal forum, cannot be known by the Church, and is always presumed to be there.  Theologians, furthermore, add that the requisite intention is simply to do what the Church does.  If the minister is conscious of the fact that, "yep, this is the Catholic Rite, and, yeah, I'm putting on my vestments now, and am going to go out there to do it" ... he has the requisite intention.  Nor is SSPX in any position to "investigate" squat, since even the Church doesn't presume to know the internal forum.

    SSPX pretend that doing a conditional can only be justified if one has conducted an investigation with the same rigor as one might investigate a marriage annulment.  That's ridiculous.  Any prudent doubt suffices, and nobody's required to spend hundreds of man-hours "investigating" something that can't be investigated anyway.

    It's entirely certain that there's positive doubt about the Novus Ordo Rite of Ordination.  Period.  And there's no reason NOT to perform conditionals on all Novus Ordo presbyters ... except that the SSPX are playing politics and subjecting the faithful to invalid Sacraments from fake priests who go around simulating Masses.
    http://www.archbishoplefebvre.com/10th-may-2014.html

    Agreed. Have not found evidence of His Grace Archbishop Lefebvre promoting problems with the intention.  But certainly his Lordship Bishop Williamson toyed with this belief.  See link.



    Offline Boru

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    Re: Universal doubtful intention
    « Reply #5 on: August 07, 2025, 01:35:12 PM »
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  • It's entirely certain that there's positive doubt about the Novus Ordo Rite of Ordination.  Period.  And there's no reason NOT to perform conditionals on all Novus Ordo presbyters ... except that the SSPX are playing politics and subjecting the faithful to invalid Sacraments from fake priests who go around simulating Masses.
    From where does this positive doubt arise? If not intention, as Bishop Williamson suggested, then where?

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Universal doubtful intention
    « Reply #6 on: August 07, 2025, 02:16:07 PM »
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  • From where does this positive doubt arise? If not intention, as Bishop Williamson suggested, then where?
    This is all explained in the "sspx fake priests" thread.  Pope Pius XII defined the form of ordinations/consecrations.  The new rites differ from what Pius XII defined.  Ergo, there's doubt.

    Offline Colt

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    Re: Universal doubtful intention
    « Reply #7 on: August 07, 2025, 03:17:03 PM »
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  • This is all explained in the "sspx fake priests" thread.  Pope Pius XII defined the form of ordinations/consecrations.  The new rites differ from what Pius XII defined.  Ergo, there's doubt.
    Fantastic Pax!


    Offline Boru

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    Re: Universal doubtful intention
    « Reply #8 on: August 07, 2025, 07:06:30 PM »
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  • From where does this positive doubt arise? If not intention, as Bishop Williamson suggested, then where?
    "One can say a Catholic sacrament involves five elements : Minister, Intention, Matter and Form are essential for validity, the Rite surrounding the Form can be important for validity by its sudden or gradual bearing on the Minister's Intention. For priestly Orders, the Minister has to be a validly consecrated bishop ; the Intention is his sacramental (not moral) intention, in ordaining, to do what the Church does ; the Matter is his laying of both hands on the head of the man to be ordained (women cannot be validly ordained to the priesthood of Christ) ; the Form is the crucial formula or series of words in the rite which express the conferring of the priesthood ; the Rite is all the other words surrounding that Form, and prescribed in the ceremonial rite of Ordination.

     In a new rite Ordination, if both hands are laid on the head, the Matter is no problem. The new Form in Latin is, if anything, stronger for validity than the old Form in Latin (by the « et » instead of an « ut »), but vernacular translations need to be checked to make sure that they clearly express the grace of the priesthood to be conferred. Most of them surely do."
    Bishop Williamson, 2009, EC 121

    Offline Colt

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    Re: Universal doubtful intention
    « Reply #9 on: August 07, 2025, 07:12:28 PM »
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  • "One can say a Catholic sacrament involves five elements : Minister, Intention, Matter and Form are essential for validity, the Rite surrounding the Form can be important for validity by its sudden or gradual bearing on the Minister's Intention. For priestly Orders, the Minister has to be a validly consecrated bishop ; the Intention is his sacramental (not moral) intention, in ordaining, to do what the Church does ; the Matter is his laying of both hands on the head of the man to be ordained (women cannot be validly ordained to the priesthood of Christ) ; the Form is the crucial formula or series of words in the rite which express the conferring of the priesthood ; the Rite is all the other words surrounding that Form, and prescribed in the ceremonial rite of Ordination.

     In a new rite Ordination, if both hands are laid on the head, the Matter is no problem. The new Form in Latin is, if anything, stronger for validity than the old Form in Latin (by the « et » instead of an « ut »), but vernacular translations need to be checked to make sure that they clearly express the grace of the priesthood to be conferred. Most of them surely do."
    Bishop Williamson, 2009, EC 121

    Positive doubt comes from two sources. The new form of ordination and the new rite of episcopal consecration.

    The new rite reflects a new theology. That alone creates objective doubt. When both priesthood and episcopacy are uncertain, the doubt is doubled.

    Conditional ordination is not optional. It is required for the validity of the sacraments and the peace of souls.

    There is no room for ambiguity. Double doubt demands absolute certainty.


    Offline NIFH

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    Re: Universal doubtful intention
    « Reply #10 on: August 07, 2025, 07:53:24 PM »
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  • Econe, 28 oct. 1988

    Very dear Mr. Wilson,

    thank you very much for your kind letter. I agree with your desire to reordain conditionnaly these priests, and I have done this reordination many times.

    All sacraments from the modernists bishops or priests are doubtfull now. The changes are increasing and their intentions are no more catholics.

    We are in the time of great apostasy.

    We need more and more bishops and priests very catholics. It is necessary everywhere in the world.

    Thank you for the newspaper article from the Father Alvaro Antonio Perez Jesuit!

    We must pray and work hardly to extend the kingdom of Jesus-Christ.

    I pray for you and your lovely family.

    Devotly in Jesus and Mary.

    Marcel Lefebvre


    Offline NIFH

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    Re: Universal doubtful intention
    « Reply #11 on: August 07, 2025, 07:53:57 PM »
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  • "When God calls me – no doubt this will be before long – from whom would these seminarians receive the Sacrament of Orders? From conciliar bishops, who, due to their doubtful intentions, confer doubtful sacraments?"

    Offline Boru

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    Re: Universal doubtful intention
    « Reply #12 on: Yesterday at 07:36:40 AM »
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  • Positive doubt comes from two sources. The new form of ordination and the new rite of episcopal consecration.

    The new rite reflects a new theology. That alone creates objective doubt. When both priesthood and episcopacy are uncertain, the doubt is doubled.

    Conditional ordination is not optional. It is required for the validity of the sacraments and the peace of souls.

    There is no room for ambiguity. Double doubt demands absolute certainty.
    I posted Bishop Williamson's words to help put to rest the Diamond Brother's nonsense about the change of the word 'ut'.

    With regards to your proposal, I understand what you are saying, however, canonically, a positive doubt - in both cases, must first be established. Otherwise, according to Church Law, to re-ordain without an established positive doubt, is to commit a sacrileges act. And rightfully so because you are calling into question an official Rite of the Catholic Church. I'm not arguing against Re-ordinations - at times they are absolutely necessary and the Church allows for this - but what I am high-lighting is that from a very early stage, if not the beginning, the SSPX practiced a cautious policy on only re-ordaining where a positive doubt existed; that they did not automatically do so simply because a priest had been ordained via the New Rite - of which they formerly ruled was indeed valid.  This is the same prudent policy that the SSPX exercises today. As Catholics, and as traditionalists who follow and maintain Archbishop Lefebvre's 'Recognise and Resist' position, we are obliged to follow Church law as it has always been instituted. We cannot enact new laws out of personal fear and assumptions. We must be careful that we do not over-step the line for the good of the over-all Church. With regards to the essential elements, it had been concluded by the early leadership of the SSPX that they is no ambiguity in the New Rite of Ordination. If you believe me to be wrong on this point, please submit your evidence for us to consider. Thank you.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Universal doubtful intention
    « Reply #13 on: Yesterday at 07:51:07 AM »
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  • I posted Bishop Williamson's words to help put to rest the Diamond Brother's nonsense about the change of the word 'ut'.

    With regards to your proposal, I understand what you are saying, however, canonically, a positive doubt - in both cases, must first be established. Otherwise, according to Church Law, to re-ordain without an established positive doubt, is to commit a sacrileges act. And rightfully so because you are calling into question an official Rite of the Catholic Church. I'm not arguing against Re-ordinations - at times they are absolutely necessary and the Church allows for this - but what I am high-lighting is that from a very early stage, if not the beginning, the SSPX practiced a cautious policy on only re-ordaining where a positive doubt existed; that they did not automatically do so simply because a priest had been ordained via the New Rite - of which they formerly ruled was indeed valid.  This is the same prudent policy that the SSPX exercises today. As Catholics, and as traditionalists who follow and maintain Archbishop Lefebvre's 'Recognise and Resist' position, we are obliged to follow Church law as it has always been instituted. We cannot enact new laws out of personal fear and assumptions. We must be careful that we do not over-step the line for the good of the over-all Church. With regards to the essential elements, it had been concluded by the early leadership of the SSPX that they is no ambiguity in the New Rite of Ordination. If you believe me to be wrong on this point, please submit your evidence for us to consider. Thank you.
    You sound like the post-Bishop-Tissier and post-Fr-Scott, new-sspx.  And you're 100% wrong.  Just like you were on the other thread.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Universal doubtful intention
    « Reply #14 on: Yesterday at 07:59:07 AM »
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  • "One can say a Catholic sacrament involves five elements : Minister, Intention, Matter and Form are essential for validity, the Rite surrounding the Form can be important for validity by its sudden or gradual bearing on the Minister's Intention. For priestly Orders, the Minister has to be a validly consecrated bishop ; the Intention is his sacramental (not moral) intention, in ordaining, to do what the Church does ; the Matter is his laying of both hands on the head of the man to be ordained (women cannot be validly ordained to the priesthood of Christ) ; the Form is the crucial formula or series of words in the rite which express the conferring of the priesthood ; the Rite is all the other words surrounding that Form, and prescribed in the ceremonial rite of Ordination.

     In a new rite Ordination, if both hands are laid on the head, the Matter is no problem. The new Form in Latin is, if anything, stronger for validity than the old Form in Latin (by the « et » instead of an « ut »), but vernacular translations need to be checked to make sure that they clearly express the grace of the priesthood to be conferred. Most of them surely do."
    Bishop Williamson, 2009, EC 121

    :facepalm:  This is only concentrating on the ordination rite, and it ignores the issue in bold, which is that 99.9% of bishops today (which aren't Trad) are ordained in the NEW rite, which makes them doubtful.

    A doubtful bishop --> ordaining with new or old rite = doubtful ordination.

    p.s.  +Williamson conditionally consecrated +Vigano precisely because the episcopal consecrations are highly doubtful.