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Author Topic: Universal doubtful intention  (Read 82069 times)

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Offline Boru

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Re: Universal doubtful intention
« Reply #75 on: August 13, 2025, 05:28:39 PM »
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  • So ... now, finally, you actually make a valid point, that the Catholic Church, i.e. a legitimate Pope, cannot promulgate invalid or even doubtful Sacraments.  That is in fact the Sedevacantist position. 

    ....since you've made no secret about your hatred for sedevacantists. 

    It's very late my end so I'll have to be content with this for now (there is a lot of woffle in your post to sift through): That the Catholic Church and its Vicar of Christ cannot promulgate invalid Sacraments is true. That this is the Sede-vacantist position is false. You have inverted its meaning to mean that the Sacraments are not valid because the visible Catholic Church and the Vicar of Christ in Rome are false.

    I do not hate Sede-vacantists, the people. I hate Sede-vacantism, the sect. And I hate it because it is a false religion bent on drawing souls away from the Catholic Church like the Protestants did. I'm a student of history and if you look at Luther and his arguments against the Church - and the ugly bitter language and name-calling he used - you will see a parallel to your position.

    Offline Gray2023

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    Re: Universal doubtful intention
    « Reply #76 on: August 13, 2025, 06:03:48 PM »
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  • Yes, I agree, as the Church IS the Body of Christ (the Hypostatic Union) it certainly will be - or is being - scourged and stripped, and there will come a time when this Body is crucified by Her enemies and hidden from sight for three and a half days. Scripture tells us this in Revelation:

    "And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and it was said to me: Arise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar and them that adore therein.
    2 But the court, which is without the temple, cast out, and measure it not: because it is given unto the Gentiles, and the holy city they shall tread under foot two and forty months (three and half years):
    3 And I will give unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred sixty days (roughly three and half years), clothed in sackcloth.
    4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks, that stand before the Lord of the earth....

    And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast, that ascendeth out of the abyss, shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
    8 And their bodies shall lie in the streets of the great city, which is called spiritually, Sodom and Egypt, where their Lord also was crucified (Jerusalem).
    9 And they of the tribes, and peoples, and tongues, and nations, shall see their bodies for three days and a half: and they shall not suffer their bodies to be laid in sepulchres.
    10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry: and shall send gifts one to another, because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt upon the earth.
    11 And after three days and a half, the spirit of life from God entered into them. And they stood upon their feet, and great fear fell upon them that saw them." - Rev. 1:11.

    The Olive trees mean 'Anointed Ones' and traditionally believed to be the Holy Father and an Earthly Catholic king.
    This means the visibly Body that has always been there, will be hidden from sight for three and half days for there is no Church, no Body of Christ without the Papacy, its head, as Pope Leo XIII teaches.

    Keep in mind, Jesus was both God and man. So while he died as a man and 'gave up his human spirit', He never died as God. The divine nature - His divine soul - remained with the Body.
    It is hard to interpret scripture as God intended.

    I just have a couple more questions.   Is Pope Leo xiv the pope with full authority of the Catholic Church?  Would you attend a Faternity of St. Peter Mass?  If yes, why are you with the SSPX? 

    Pope Leo XIV is going to use his authority to make  "St" John Henry Newman a doctor of the Church.  What is your opinion on this?

    We can try to understand different parts of the Church and try to make sense of specific things, but the problem is that it all needs to make sense in a unified way.  I don't believe  we can accept the changes in the Sacraments (all we're changed after V2, see the book "lex orandi" by Daniel Graham) not accept the making of Saints (forgot the term) and Doctors.  We have to accept those, too.

    It is very frustrating times for most of us.  We find our little corner of tradition and we hang tight.  People have many different opinions, but we know that we can find Church teaching in the Saint's writings and Church teachings before Vatican 2.  At some point in time, God will restore the Papacy, so their will be no more confusion.  The time is not now.
    1 Corinthians: Chapter 13 "4 Charity is patient, is kind: charity envieth not, dealeth not perversely; is not puffed up; 5 Is not ambitious, seeketh not her own, is not provoked to anger, thinketh no evil;"


    Offline AMDGJMJ

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    Re: Universal doubtful intention
    « Reply #77 on: August 13, 2025, 07:32:49 PM »
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  • So far, whenever any of the Sede minded posters refer to the 'Old' SPPX in support of their "invalid" stance with regards to New Rite Ordinations etc, they have asked me to read what Fr. Peter Scott of the SSPX had to say on the subject or His Lordship Bishop Tissier de Mallarais. So, in the name of fairness, I went on a hunt, and well, it proved to be a rather unsuccessful endevour. Perhaps these posters would like to share some concrete evidence that they have that is not on the internet?

    For starters the only information I could pull up about Fr. Scott is the following: "Fr. Peter Scott has pointed out that a positive doubt about the per se validity of the 1968 form of ordination as promulgated does not exist, for the strictly essential part of the form is practically identical to that defined by Pope Pius XII in 1947. It may be invalid in specific cases, he said, owing to defect of intention or poor vernacular translation. " This is a comment summarising Fr. Scott's outline in the 2007 edition of the Angelus.

    As for His Lordship, the only one I could find was his Ordination Sermon of June 29, 2016, published by the SSPX UK as an "unofficial translation". Now this sermon is expressed with great clarity. He opens with "...We remember the beautiful words of Pius X 'To restore all things in Christ'...especially by the Catholic priesthood." He then proceeds to outline what a priest is - a mediator between God and man - and how this is symbolized in the ordination ceremony. It is when he begins to outline the three rites that are performed after the candidate has been ordained a priest, that the New Ordination Rite is first mentioned: "...my dear faithful, this wonderful anointing of the priest's hands was (tampered with - 'truque') by the conciliar Church for the past 46 years. Paul VI instituted other words which do not speak of consecration or sanctification. This is why we preciously safeguard the treasure of these ordination prayers." This was followed later by " But this prayer (concerning the Chalice and Paten), once again, was tampered with...we cannot accept this new, tampered with ordination rite, which casts doubts on the validity of numerous (NOTE not all) ordinations according to the new rite....this new rite of ordination is not Catholic."

    Strong words indeed! And he was right in every thing he said. But what he did not say was that the New Ordination Rite itself was invalid. The thrust of his comparison was to show how the modernists had stripped back a beautiful teaching rite, rich in symbolism, to the 'bare-bones' of what the Rite was enacting - which in turn, has lead to many priests losing a sense of who and what they are; stripping it back to the point it no longer projects a clear Catholic spirit. There is no doubt that His Lordship had doubts. But, as far as I have found, he has never declared them positive doubts. And he has always held that the Popes since 1958 were indeed Popes.
    I highly recommend reading Archbishop Lefevbre's "Letter to Confused Catholics".  Here is a link to read it for free online. (He talks about the changes of the novus ordo to the various Sacraments):  https://archive.org/details/AnOpenLetterToConfusedCatholics

    Concerning "New priests" and the new rite of Holy Orders he says:

    "Everything is bound up together. By attacking the base of the building it is destroyed entirely. No more Mass, no more priests. The ritual, before it was altered, had the bishop say "Receive the power to offer to God the Holy Sacrifice and to celebrate Holy Mass both for the living and for the dead, in the name of the Lord." He had previously blessed the hands of the ordinand by pronouncing these words "So that all that they bless may be blessed and all that they consecrate may be consecrated and sanctified." The power conferred is expressed without ambiguity: "That for the salvation of The people and by their holy blessing, they may effect the Transubstantiation of the bread and the wine into the Body and Blood of thy Divine Son."

    Nowadays the bishop says, "Receive the offering of the holy people to present it to God." He makes the new priest an intermediary rather than the holder of the ministerial priesthood and the offerer of a sacrifice. The conception is wholly different. The priest has always been considered in Holy Church as someone having a character conferred by the Sacrament of Order. Yet we have seen a bishop, not "suspended", write, "The priest is not somebody who does things that the ordinary faithful don't do; he is not 'another Christ', any more than any other baptised person. " This bishop was merely drawing the conculusions from the teaching that has prevailed since the Council and the liturgy."
    "Jesus, Meek and Humble of Heart, make my heart like unto Thine!"

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    Offline AMDGJMJ

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    Re: Universal doubtful intention
    « Reply #78 on: August 13, 2025, 07:35:37 PM »
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  • Here is another good article from a 1998 newsletter for the SSPX in Asia:

    "
    Newsletter of the District of Asia
     December 1998
    Priestly Ordination:
     The New Rite   Vs.  The Old Rite
    Strange Changes
    On June 18, 1968, Pope Paul VI promulgated a new rite for the priestly ordination.
               
    The matter and the form of the sacrament [1] remained almost the same as in the rite promulgated by Pope Pius XII in November 1948. There are only two small changes in the form, which do not however affect the meaning of the sacrament; in fact, they specify it better. 
    The novelty and danger of the new rite consists especially in the abolition of the two ceremonies by which the bishop clearly explains the powers of the Catholic priest:
    1)   In relation to the power to offer Mass:

    Old Rite
    New Rite
    “Receive the power to offer the Sacrifice to God and to celebrate Masses for the living and the dead.”“Let our Lord Jesus Christ, whom the Father anointed by the Holy Ghost and by fortitude, guard you in order that you may offer the sacrifice to God and sanctify the Christian people.”
    2)   In relation to the power to hear confession:

    Old Rite
    New Rite
    The second imposition of hands along with a quote of Our Lord Himself:  “Receive  the Holy Ghost, whose sins you  shall  forgive, they are forgiven them, and  whose  sins you shall retain, they are retained.”(John 20:22)
    Abolished completely
    These two ceremonies in the traditional rite of ordination indicated clearly that the priest has two powers:
    1.   The first, on the physical Body of Christ, consisting in offering the Sacrifice for the living and the dead.
    2.   The second, on the mystical Body of Christ i.e. the sanctification of the faithful, especially by the forgiveness of sins in the sacrament of Confession.
    While these two powers are mentioned in the new formulas, it is not done very clearly:
    -  The Sacrifice is no longer for the living and the dead.
    - The sanctification of the faithful does not come firstly by the forgiveness of sins, which puts souls in the state of grace.
    WHY WERE THESE CHANGES MADE?
    It is now manifest that the intention leading all these changes in the new rite of ordination is the same intention which lead all the changes in the new order of Mass, i.e. the desire to get closer to the Protestant doctrines.
    For Luther, founder of Protestantism, “To be a Christian means to have the Gospel and to believe in Christ.  This faith brings forgiveness of sins and divine grace.” [2]
    ·  Also for him, the Mass is only a simple commemoration of the Last Supper, and not the unbloody renewal of the unique Sacrifice of Our Lord on the Cross, applying the merits of the Passion for the remission of sins.  All of this is useless according to him because faith is sufficient in order to be saved.
    ·  There is no need of the Sacrament of Penance because our faith in Christ is sufficient to obtain the forgiveness of sins.
    ·  And the priest is a simple preacher.
    To answer these errors of Luther, the Council of Trent promulgated the following anathemas:
    ·         “If anyone says that the sacrifice of the Mass is one only of praise and thanksgiving, or that it is a mere commemoration of the sacrifice consummated on the cross but not a propitiatory one, or that it ought not to be offered for the living and the dead, for sins, punishments, satisfactions and other necessities, let him be anathema.”  (Canon 3 on the Sacrifice of the Mass)
    ·         “If anyone says that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in divine Mercy, which remits sins for Christ’s sake, or that it is confidence alone that justifies us, let him be anathema.” (Canon 12 concerning justification)
                The abolition of this precision in the new rite of the priestly ordination (even if the rite remains valid in itself by the unchanged matter and form) makes the doctrine expressed by the new rite dangerously close to the Protestant doctrine.  This is not surprising since the end of all the liturgical reforms after the Vatican II Council was ecuмenism.
                Something else, which is also not surprising, alas, is that now, many new priests do not know anymore what the priesthood is.  Consequently, this leads to all priestly problems, such as married priests (at least 70,000 priests have abandoned their priesthood since the last Council).
               And do the bishops themselves know well what a priest is?  We hope so, because with this new rite, some bishops could have an intention opposite to the intention of the Church when they ordain priests, and in that case the ordination would be invalid, or at least doubtful.


    [1]The matter of a sacrament is the sensible thing made use of in effecting the sacrament.  For the priestly ordination, it is the first imposition of the hands made by the bishop. The form is the words, which are pronounced in order to effect the sacrament.  For the priestly ordination, it is some of the words of the consecratory preface.
    [2]The Facts About Luther, by Msgr. O’Hare, TAN Books, p.101


    https://sspxasia.com/Newsletters/1998/December/Priestly-Ordinations-New-Vs-Old-Rite.htm
    "Jesus, Meek and Humble of Heart, make my heart like unto Thine!"

    http://whoshallfindavaliantwoman.blogspot.com/

    Offline Boru

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    Re: Universal doubtful intention
    « Reply #79 on: August 14, 2025, 08:42:27 AM »
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  • It is hard to interpret scripture as God intended.

    I just have a couple more questions.  Is Pope Leo xiv the pope with full authority of the Catholic Church?  Would you attend a Faternity of St. Peter Mass?  If yes, why are you with the SSPX?

    Pope Leo XIV is going to use his authority to make  "St" John Henry Newman a doctor of the Church.  What is your opinion on this?

    We can try to understand different parts of the Church and try to make sense of specific things, but the problem is that it all needs to make sense in a unified way.  I don't believe  we can accept the changes in the Sacraments (all we're changed after V2, see the book "lex orandi" by Daniel Graham) not accept the making of Saints (forgot the term) and Doctors.  We have to accept those, too.

    It is very frustrating times for most of us.  We find our little corner of tradition and we hang tight.  People have many different opinions, but we know that we can find Church teaching in the Saint's writings and Church teachings before Vatican 2.  At some point in time, God will restore the Papacy, so their will be no more confusion.  The time is not now.
    Vatican II was opened with good intent. Unfortunately it was overseen by a weak-minded Pope who had been influenced by the Liberal faction lurking within the Church. They knew this and took advantage. Every one of the 16 docuмents put forward was a fight between traditional Catholics and liberal minded "Catholics". These liberals literally bullied their way into making the changes in wording that they did. But they could only go so far. The traditional periti fought back. No outright rejections of the faith were implemented at Vatican II but rather time-bombs of ambiguity - especially in Religious Liberty - had been planted for later use by these same Liberals.

    I write this to emphasis that the Church was hijacked by infiltrators who rode roughshod over the rest of the Catholic clergy - and even the Pope through Collegiality - to get what they wanted. They have taken the Church captive so to speak. But it is the same Church, with the same authority, and the same doctrines and dogmas.

    As we discussed, the Church IS the Body of Christ. And the Vicar of Christ is the head of that body. You cannot separate the Head from the body. The two are one as Leo XIII makes very clear. And if the Church, prior Vatican II. was the Church in 1962 - and the Church is eternal and divine - then it is the same Church after Vatican II in 1965. To say it disappeared is to claim it was never divine in the first place. This is a Protestant mentality.

    Given the history, and what happened at Vatican II, it is important for us to make these distinctions. The Church is the Church - it still has the 4 visible marks of recognition - One (united under one authority with the same faith), Holy (dogmas and doctrines have not changed), Catholic (Universal) and Apostolic (Vicar of Christ) Church - but there are infiltrators in high places who are using these time-bombs to strip the Church of her former glory. But they can only go so far for Christ promised He would sustain His Church. What does this mean? It means the Church was set up by Christ to give us the Sacraments which give us divine life. That is the primarily reason. And that is what sustaining means. And we know God is in control because just at the point when the infiltrators were at the height of their destruction, He raised up Archbishop Lefebvre, WITHIN His Church, to preserve all the traditional ways in order to lead the Church back to solid grounding. I do not advocate the New Mass. I do not go to a New Mass. Not because it is not valid, nor because I doubt its validly in itself, but because the Traditional Mass is far, far, more reverent and beautiful and yes, because it makes it clear that it is the Sacrifice of Calvary. And because the Traditional rite IS and has always been, the rite of the Catholic Church. And in most cases, contains none of the abuses being allowed at many New Rite Masses.

    Now to answer your questions: Firstly, Scripture is to be interpreted according to how it has always been interpreted. Christ is both God and man, and that although His Human soul died, His divine soul never separated from His human body - just as the the divinity of the visible human Church can never be separated from it. When I find the correct Church reference to this, I will post it for you.

    I began my traditional journey with the Fraternity of St. Peter. I had never heard of the SSPX at that time. After much study, and much prayer, I made the great leap of faith into a SSPX chapel once I reached the conviction that Archbishop Lefebvre was still in union with the Church. This was supported by my local parish priest, a Holy Ghost father himself, who gave me permission to be married in a SSPX chapel. Why the SSPX and not the Fraternity? Two reasons: I came to admire Archbishop Lefebvre very much. And appreciate the enormous personal sacrifice he made for the good of the Church. And one could identify with him. His sufferings were our sufferings - the fear, the doubts, the confusion - and the long hours of studying trying to make sense of it all in a Catholic light. The second reason is because they are wholly traditional, will not compromise on their stance, and yet remain united with Rome - which ties in with the first reason. That said, I would still attend a Fraternity Mass if I could not get to a SSPX.

    With regards to Pope Leo XIV making Cardinal Newman a Doctor of the Church - well the Pope has the authority so I accept it. I see you do not recognize him as a saint. As this is outside my competence, I myself reserve judgement. It does not effect my faith so I simply await for a time when the whole question of the new Canonizations is clarified by the Church.

    As I said, I do understand your doubts about everything - I wrestled with them myself  - so none of this is meant as a personal attack, but rather a defense of the SSPX from those - who with mouths of sewers like Luther - have turned on her and attempt to bully others into turning on her too.


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Universal doubtful intention
    « Reply #80 on: August 14, 2025, 09:14:55 AM »
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  • Vatican II was opened with good intent. Unfortunately it was overseen by a weak-minded Pope who had been influenced by the Liberal faction lurking within the Church. 
    No, it wasn't.  And John23 was most likely a mason.  The liberal media HATED Pius XII but loved John23, whom they called "Good Pope John".  That should send off warning bells.

    Quote
    I began my traditional journey with the Fraternity of St. Peter. I had never heard of the SSPX at that time. After much study, and much prayer, I made the great leap of faith into a SSPX chapel once I reached the conviction that Archbishop Lefebvre was still in union with the Church. 
    Honest question -- How can you say that Lefebvre is "in union" with new-rome, if new-rome excommunicated him?  Pope Benedict never lifted the excommunication...

    Quote
    The second reason is because they are wholly traditional, will not compromise on their stance, and yet remain united with Rome - which ties in with the first reason. That said, I would still attend a Fraternity Mass if I could not get to a SSPX. 
    As you have experience in both the sspx and the fssp...why do you call the sspx "wholly" trad, but the fssp isn't?

    Offline Boru

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    Re: Universal doubtful intention
    « Reply #81 on: August 14, 2025, 09:29:56 AM »
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  • Your "conception" of the Church is bizarre. You believe that the institutional hierarchy can do and say anything they please, and, as long as they claim to be "Roman Catholic," they are Roman Catholic in your eyes.

    No! Those people who claim to be a members of the Body of Christ and teach doctrines contrary to Christ's are NOT members of His Mystical Body. They are hypocritical heretics. They cut themselves off from His Mystical Body.

    .................
    You need to make distinctions between the Body of Christ and its members who are betraying her by subversive means. The Church itself does not teach doctrines contrary to Christ. And yes, Christ gave His Church the power to bind or loosen.

    Also - I noticed in an earlier post you raised Bishop Tissier de Mallerais' concern about the changes in the new rite of ordination. Again, you have failed to make a distinction. He was speaking about the three sub-rites that take place AFTER a priest-elect has already been ordained. He was absolutely correct in his assessment of how the beautiful prayers had been stripped back, however as they are not part of the essential Form, they do not constitute as a positive doubt in the matter. I share His Lordships doubt as to the intent behind those changes, but I also trust that as the Church is a divine institution, it cannot promote invalid sacraments; that the reformers failed in their attempt.

    Offline Gray2023

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    Re: Universal doubtful intention
    « Reply #82 on: August 14, 2025, 10:32:14 AM »
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  • Vatican II was opened with good intent. Unfortunately it was overseen by a weak-minded Pope who had been influenced by the Liberal faction lurking within the Church. They knew this and took advantage. Every one of the 16 docuмents put forward was a fight between traditional Catholics and liberal minded "Catholics". These liberals literally bullied their way into making the changes in wording that they did. But they could only go so far. The traditional periti fought back. No outright rejections of the faith were implemented at Vatican II but rather time-bombs of ambiguity - especially in Religious Liberty - had been planted for later use by these same Liberals.

    I write this to emphasis that the Church was hijacked by infiltrators who rode roughshod over the rest of the Catholic clergy - and even the Pope through Collegiality - to get what they wanted. They have taken the Church captive so to speak. But it is the same Church, with the same authority, and the same doctrines and dogmas.

    As we discussed, the Church IS the Body of Christ. And the Vicar of Christ is the head of that body. You cannot separate the Head from the body. The two are one as Leo XIII makes very clear. And if the Church, prior Vatican II. was the Church in 1962 - and the Church is eternal and divine - then it is the same Church after Vatican II in 1965. To say it disappeared is to claim it was never divine in the first place. This is a Protestant mentality.

    Given the history, and what happened at Vatican II, it is important for us to make these distinctions. The Church is the Church - it still has the 4 visible marks of recognition - One (united under one authority with the same faith), Holy (dogmas and doctrines have not changed), Catholic (Universal) and Apostolic (Vicar of Christ) Church - but there are infiltrators in high places who are using these time-bombs to strip the Church of her former glory. But they can only go so far for Christ promised He would sustain His Church. What does this mean? It means the Church was set up by Christ to give us the Sacraments which give us divine life. That is the primarily reason. And that is what sustaining means. And we know God is in control because just at the point when the infiltrators were at the height of their destruction, He raised up Archbishop Lefebvre, WITHIN His Church, to preserve all the traditional ways in order to lead the Church back to solid grounding. I do not advocate the New Mass. I do not go to a New Mass. Not because it is not valid, nor because I doubt its validly in itself, but because the Traditional Mass is far, far, more reverent and beautiful and yes, because it makes it clear that it is the Sacrifice of Calvary. And because the Traditional rite IS and has always been, the rite of the Catholic Church. And in most cases, contains none of the abuses being allowed at many New Rite Masses.

    Now to answer your questions: Firstly, Scripture is to be interpreted according to how it has always been interpreted. Christ is both God and man, and that although His Human soul died, His divine soul never separated from His human body - just as the the divinity of the visible human Church can never be separated from it. When I find the correct Church reference to this, I will post it for you.

    I began my traditional journey with the Fraternity of St. Peter. I had never heard of the SSPX at that time. After much study, and much prayer, I made the great leap of faith into a SSPX chapel once I reached the conviction that Archbishop Lefebvre was still in union with the Church. This was supported by my local parish priest, a Holy Ghost father himself, who gave me permission to be married in a SSPX chapel. Why the SSPX and not the Fraternity? Two reasons: I came to admire Archbishop Lefebvre very much. And appreciate the enormous personal sacrifice he made for the good of the Church. And one could identify with him. His sufferings were our sufferings - the fear, the doubts, the confusion - and the long hours of studying trying to make sense of it all in a Catholic light. The second reason is because they are wholly traditional, will not compromise on their stance, and yet remain united with Rome - which ties in with the first reason. That said, I would still attend a Fraternity Mass if I could not get to a SSPX.

    With regards to Pope Leo XIV making Cardinal Newman a Doctor of the Church - well the Pope has the authority so I accept it. I see you do not recognize him as a saint. As this is outside my competence, I myself reserve judgement. It does not effect my faith so I simply await for a time when the whole question of the new Canonizations is clarified by the Church.

    As I said, I do understand your doubts about everything - I wrestled with them myself  - so none of this is meant as a personal attack, but rather a defense of the SSPX from those - who with mouths of sewers like Luther - have turned on her and attempt to bully others into turning on her too.
    I understand your post and where you are coming from.  I also started with the FSSP.  I have been in this mess for 20+ years.

    At the same time that +Lefebvre was trying to figure out what to do.  +Thuc (now, I haven't read all you posts, because they are long and scholarly, and i mean no disrespect if you already brought up +Thuc) was doing the same thing.  Granted he wasn't always prudent and the conflict seemed to greatly trouble him, but that doesn't negate all the Bishops he consecrated.  So sometimes I feel that SSPX people like yourself, tend to over inflate +Lefebvre as being the only savior of tradition (but that is just my opinion and you really don't have to believe it.)


    My next question to you though is since you are strongly in the camp you are in, why did you come to CathInfo?  Are you trying to save us from our own opinions on the matter?  Do you think if you can get us all to see what you have learned that we will all come back to the SSPX?  Do you think that if this part of the Catholic flock returns, then God will abolish the sick and dying parts of the Church?

    This is a really hard battle, and I do believe that God is putting all His Soldiers exactly where they need to be for a GREAT RESTORATION.  We just have to pray and watch and hold tight to the Truth.



    1 Corinthians: Chapter 13 "4 Charity is patient, is kind: charity envieth not, dealeth not perversely; is not puffed up; 5 Is not ambitious, seeketh not her own, is not provoked to anger, thinketh no evil;"


    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Universal doubtful intention
    « Reply #83 on: August 14, 2025, 10:45:42 AM »
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  • You need to make distinctions between the Body of Christ and its members who are betraying her by subversive means. The Church itself does not teach doctrines contrary to Christ. And yes, Christ gave His Church the power to bind or loosen.

    Also - I noticed in an earlier post you raised Bishop Tissier de Mallerais' concern about the changes in the new rite of ordination. Again, you have failed to make a distinction. He was speaking about the three sub-rites that take place AFTER a priest-elect has already been ordained. He was absolutely correct in his assessment of how the beautiful prayers had been stripped back, however as they are not part of the essential Form, they do not constitute as a positive doubt in the matter. I share His Lordships doubt as to the intent behind those changes, but I also trust that as the Church is a divine institution, it cannot promote invalid sacraments; that the reformers failed in their attempt.

    The ordination of the Priest requires not only the "essential" part of the Form. It requires other elements of the Rite that "signify the grace effected," what you are calling the "sub-rites." Those "sub-rites" are part of the single, proper, traditional (handed down) Rite of Ordination of a Priest. They cannot be dispensed with or changed willy nilly.

    Here is what Pius XII says about this in Sacramentum Ordinis:

    Quote
    6. In order that there may be no occasion for doubt, We command that in conferring each Order the imposition of hands be done by physically touching the head of the person to be ordained, although a moral contact also is sufficient for the valid conferring of the Sacrament.

    Finally, what We have above declared and provided is by no means to be understood in the sense that it be permitted even in the slightest detail to neglect or omit the other rites which are prescribed in the Roman Pontifical; on the contrary We order that all the prescriptions laid down in the said Roman Pontifical be religiously observed and performed.

    Your conception of ordination contradicts what Pius XII says. You are saying that those "sub-rites" don't really matter. That they can just as well be omitted. They do nothing at all, in your opinion. Wrong! Pius XII did not say that. No apparent Catholic authority has said that.

    In Sacramentum Ordinis, Pius XII was clarifying the precise matter and form of the Sacrament. But he did not enter into the details about the elements of the Rite related to "significatio ex adjunctis." He did not go into those details because that was not his purpose in writing Sacramentum Ordinis. He conserved the traditional "significatio ex adjunctis" in the bolded part that I just quoted. Why, because it is absolutely necessary in order to "signify the grace that is effected" by the Sacrament, as Leo XIII and Pius XII himself stated.

    In your conception, you have reduced the Rite of Ordination to a vague job promotion. This will not cut it. It is "equally essential" (in Leo XIII's words) to signify precisely what that new job allows this Priest to do. 

    Traditionally, the key power distinguishing the Priest from all other Sacred Orders is "to offer the Body and Blood of Christ for sins". Not just offer a "sacrifice." There is also a "sacrifice of praise and thanksgiving" in the Mass. That is different from the propitiatory sacrifice that can only be accomplished by the Double Consecration that occurs in the Canon of the Mass. Even the laity can offer the sacrifice of praise. But only the Priest can offer the Body and Blood in propitiation for sins.

    Therefore, your attempt to salvage the "significatio ex adjunctis" in the New Rite by using the mention of a "spiritual sacrifice" is misplaced. The key words of the Traditional Rite that that were removed from the New Rite were as follows:
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    ...may they change by the holy words of consecration bread and wine into the Body of Blood of Thy Son as the homage of Thy people...

    I ask you Boru? Why would the infiltrators remove those words from the Rite? Those words come directly after the "essential form." Those words signify the meaning of the "essential form," which alone is very ambiguous. And like Pius XII said, they cannot be left out. And like Leo XIII said, they are "equally essential."

    But you will say that Paul VI overruled Pius XII.

    Even if he could have done such a thing, Paul VI did not do that. He didn't give details about what should be changed in the Rite. Here are his exact words:

    Quote
    In presbyteral Ordination, as it is found in the Roman Pontifical, the mission and the grace of the presbyter as coadjutor of the episcopal Order is most clearly described. Nevertheless, it seems necessary to reduce the whole rite; which, before this was divided into a number of parts, to a greater unity, and to place the .central part of the Ordination, that is, the imposition of hands and the prayer of consecration, in a more vivid light.
    Note that he did not command the editors of the Pontifical to dispense with the key signification of the sacerdotal priesthood (offering the Body and Blood). But that is exactly what happened. This is a sleight of hand maneuver. Typical of the NuChurch. Its purpose? Supposedly, to appease the Protestants. Realistically, to invalidate the Rite of Ordination to the Priesthood.

    And by your defending this wicked Rite, you are supporting the Protestantized conception of the Priesthood. That of a minister who is part of the "priesthood of all believers" and nothing more.

    Offline Boru

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    Re: Universal doubtful intention
    « Reply #84 on: August 14, 2025, 11:38:27 AM »
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  • My next question to you though is since you are strongly in the camp you are in, why did you come to CathInfo?  Are you trying to save us from our own opinions on the matter?  Do you think if you can get us all to see what you have learned that we will all come back to the SSPX?  Do you think that if this part of the Catholic flock returns, then God will abolish the sick and dying parts of the Church?

    This is a really hard battle, and I do believe that God is putting all His Soldiers exactly where they need to be for a GREAT RESTORATION.  We just have to pray and watch and hold tight to the Truth.
    Cathinfo is advertised as a traditional forum for SSPX and SSPX-Resistance and other Traditional Catholics. My horse in the race is the attacks on the SSPX. What stance you choose is up to yourselves, but if you are going to attack my stance - and that seems to be the religion for many Sede's here - I have a right to defend myself and defend the Church I love. Also, I care. It worries me when faithful detach themselves form the Pope and the Church. Especially when it is based on so much misinformation. And especially when it is a teaching of the Church to stay united to the Papacy.  And in answer to your last question - yes, I believe that if traditionalists all hold together - united to the Head of the Mystical Body - in whatever capacity or chapel they choose, we can help heal the damage done.

    Offline Boru

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    Re: Universal doubtful intention
    « Reply #85 on: August 14, 2025, 11:56:08 AM »
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  • I see that a lot of information has been posted. Some of it is very relevant with some very good points so I will systematically read each one to do them justice. Thank you.


    Offline Giovanni Berto

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    Re: Universal doubtful intention
    « Reply #86 on: August 14, 2025, 12:08:45 PM »
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  • Cathinfo is advertised as a traditional forum for SSPX and SSPX-Resistance and other Traditional Catholics. My horse in the race is the attacks on the SSPX. What stance you choose is up to yourselves, but if you are going to attack my stance - and that seems to be the religion for many Sede's here - I have a right to defend myself and defend the Church I love. Also, I care. It worries me when faithful detach themselves form the Pope and the Church. Especially when it is based on so much misinformation. And especially when it is a teaching of the Church to stay united to the Papacy.  And in answer to your last question - yes, I believe that if traditionalists all hold together - united to the Head of the Mystical Body - in whatever capacity or chapel they choose, we can help heal the damage done.

    Sure, but they all have to obey the SSPX Superior General right?

    That seems to be the deal anyway. Rome gives them a "regular canonical situation" as long as they work very hard to put all and any sort of Traditionalists under their authority.

    Can you guess what happens next? Hybrid mass?

    Offline Gray2023

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    Re: Universal doubtful intention
    « Reply #87 on: August 14, 2025, 12:35:57 PM »
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  • Cathinfo is advertised as a traditional forum for SSPX and SSPX-Resistance and other Traditional Catholics. My horse in the race is the attacks on the SSPX. What stance you choose is up to yourselves, but if you are going to attack my stance - and that seems to be the religion for many Sede's here - I have a right to defend myself and defend the Church I love. Also, I care. It worries me when faithful detach themselves form the Pope and the Church. Especially when it is based on so much misinformation. And especially when it is a teaching of the Church to stay united to the Papacy.  And in answer to your last question - yes, I believe that if traditionalists all hold together - united to the Head of the Mystical Body - in whatever capacity or chapel they choose, we can help heal the damage done.
    Except I see that people have different ideas on what the Head of the Mystical Body looks like.  The SSPX, the SSPX-Resistance,  the SSPV, the RCI, the CMRI, and all the independents that are out there that are trying to follow the Church pre-Vatican 2 are trying to do just that.  We are all looking through the same Kaleidescape and seeing different pieces of a bigger picture, and only a truly and completely Catholic Pope will unite us all.  It is better to give the benefit of the doubt to those trying to love God with all their heart, soul, and strength.

    Again no hard feelings, the situation we are in is awful, but with God, we will get through it.

    I know many people write off the middle position between R&R and Total Sedevacantist, but I am going to stay there until my husband tells me otherwise.  I as a woman don't have to really fight this battle.  I just need to go where my husband goes as long as it is with God.

    Boru, prayers for you and your family and your spiritual journey.  I don't think I can add anymore to this discussion.
    1 Corinthians: Chapter 13 "4 Charity is patient, is kind: charity envieth not, dealeth not perversely; is not puffed up; 5 Is not ambitious, seeketh not her own, is not provoked to anger, thinketh no evil;"

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Universal doubtful intention
    « Reply #88 on: August 14, 2025, 12:53:05 PM »
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  • Cathinfo is advertised as a traditional forum for SSPX and SSPX-Resistance and other Traditional Catholics. My horse in the race is the attacks on the SSPX. What stance you choose is up to yourselves, but if you are going to attack my stance - and that seems to be the religion for many Sede's here - I have a right to defend myself and defend the Church I love. Also, I care. It worries me when faithful detach themselves form the Pope and the Church. Especially when it is based on so much misinformation. And especially when it is a teaching of the Church to stay united to the Papacy.  And in answer to your last question - yes, I believe that if traditionalists all hold together - united to the Head of the Mystical Body - in whatever capacity or chapel they choose, we can help heal the damage done.

    While you continue to denounce the "sedes", your argument from the disciplinary infallibility of the Church does not represents the case from the SSPX, since they've rejected that for decades now and/or resorted to the "non-promulgation" out, which can just as easily be applied to the New Orders.

    So, whatever your "personal stance" is ... I could hardly care less.  This is about SSPX and THEIR faulty and dishonest arguments.

    Your argument is the same as that of the sede, but you beg the question that the Conciliar Church is the Catholic Church and the pope is the pope.  That's the premises which underpins your position.  Given that premise, I have no problem with the rest of your reasoning.  I just reject your premise and consider the identity of the Mystical Body and of the Pope, its head, to be in doubt ... which then fails to close off the positive doubt about the Sacraments.

    But, again, this is NOT the SSPX arugment ... and so I can hardly care less.  Where you demonstrated your dishonesty is by pretendintg that there was no direct / internal / intrinsic evidence in the Rites themselves that rise to the level of positive doubt.  That's total hogwash.  But now that you've revealed that you're imposing that analysis on it by already having concluded for extrinsic considerations ... at least you can be honest enough to admit that, "OK, taken in isolatation and if the legitimacy of the V2 papal claimants were in doubt, or if these Rites had been written by some breakway non-Catholic group, just looking at the Rites themselves, is there postiive doubt?"  Intellectual honesty would require that you answer in the affirmative.  But you've decided for extrinsic reasons that they must be valid, and you're trying to blend the two together.

    I don't disrespect the argument from the Church's disciplinary infallibility, whether for the validity of the Sacraments or whether for our overall assessment of the NOM, regarding whether it's offensive to God and harmful to souls.  In fact, I agree with it.  But you can't blend this into ... "there's no positive doubt about the Rites taken in and of themselves" ... because you're already predecided that.

    But that's your opinion, not that of the SSPX.  If the SSPX were to start making that claim, then they'd better start accepting the NOM and just take their place in the Motu churches like everyone else, where the Trad Mass is at 11:30, after the 9:30 NOM.  And they know it ... which is why they've spent decades rejecting the concept of disciplinary infallibility or at least arguing "non-promulgation".

    Offline Boru

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    Re: Universal doubtful intention
    « Reply #89 on: August 14, 2025, 03:01:10 PM »
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  • Fr. Hesse's talk starts off with NO Ordinations:

    The Problems of the Novus Ordo Sacraments


    I'm not sure of the background of this Fr. Hesse. He was ordained in the New Rite at the Vatican in 1981, worked in their secret archives for a bit, received a doctorate in Sacred Theology and Canon Law and then suddenly returned to Austria where he freelanced as a translator. What does that mean? Did he get a dispensation? Did he leave the Church? There seems to be some mystery to him. Perhaps someone here can fill me in.

    Anyway, from the very opening of his talk he made an error in relation to the matter being used in Catholic Sacraments. He talks about wine always being used in the Holy Eucharist, he mentions water always being used in Baptism, and then he talks about Olive Oil always being used as a Holy Oil. He then proceeds to state that when Pope Paul VI gave permission (1972) - in cases of necessity - for clergy to use another plant based oil if they couldn't get olive-oil, he was rendering those Sacraments invalid. This is incorrect on a number of levels. Christ instituted water for baptism, and Christ instituted wine for the Eucharist. However, it was the Church that instituted olive-oil for Holy oils. This makes a difference and I will come back to this shortly. Now. Fr. Hesse goes on to state that the Council of Trent doctrinal docuмent on the Sacraments in general, passes an anathema on any pastor of the churches - and he claims this includes the Pope - who changes the rites of the sacraments. He then applies this to Pope Paul VI for the changes he made to the sacraments and the Mass.

    First of all, that the Pope is subjected to this decree, is Fr. Hesse's erroneous assumption. Because this assumption is negated by the following: "...the Sovereign Pontiff alone enjoys the right to recognise and establish any practice touching the worship of God, to introduce and approve new rites, as also to modify those he judges to require modification." - Pope Pius XII, Encyclical Mediator Dei.

    Pope Pius XII further supports this in Sacramentum Ordinis (4) "...that which the Church has established, she can also change and abrogate' meaning that what Christ has instituted she cannot change, but what the Church has instituted she can - such as making an exception, in a case of necessity, the type of Holy Oils used. Fr. Hesse failed to make this distinction from the beginning and ends up being led up the wrong path.

    There are other bizarre things in his talk which come from his own imaginings - I've never heard them anywhere else -
    where Pope Paul VI's ordination rite must be considered a schismatic rite and therefore not subject to the criteria of Pope Leo XIII's Apostolicae Curae on Anglican Rites. This therefore means the New Rite is valid.  Apart from the fact that this criteria on Anglican rites has no relevance to Catholic rites, this line of reasoning defies logic. It has been concocted to please those who think the new ordination rite doubtful, and to justify the validity of his own new rite ordination.