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Author Topic: Universal doubtful intention  (Read 3121 times)

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Offline Gray2023

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Re: Universal doubtful intention
« Reply #45 on: Yesterday at 05:22:50 PM »
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  • Don't let Borat the Troll suck you in, as these clowns try to dishonestly shift the burden of proving invalidity onto those who assert positive doubt.  We need only demonstrate positive doubt ... which is amply demonstrated to any but the most intellectually dishonest liars.  Borat gives reasons for why the Rites MIGHT be valid, but that does not suffice, not only to eliminate positive doubt, but much less to make it so that conditional ordinations would somehow be illicit.  Borat and his/her ilk must prove that the Rite are valid beyond any prudent or reasonable doubt in order to hold that conditional ordinations would not be licit.  So, the mere fact that these threads debating the issue go on for pages clearly demonstrate a reasonable and prudent foundation for doubt, rendering conditional ordinations quite licit, and even mandatory.

    Even if they're merely licit, give the catastrophic consequences if they're wrong and also given the turbulence they're creating among the consciences of the faithful, there's no justification whatsoever for NOT performing the conditional ordinations.

    Bottom line is just that they're desperate to get regularized by the Conciliar Sect.  That's it.  That's the only reason.  Then they proceed to make up all kinds of excuses and justifications for it after the fact.

    With regard to consecrations, the term "governing spirit" is meaningless and nonsensical, but even if out of desperation you try to claim that it's some kind of concatenation of the Holy Spirit who then provides some power to govern to someone else, episcopal consecration doesn't inherently require the transmission of any type of episcopal authority, as auxiliary (chor) bishops lack any governing.  In fact, as Father Cekada points out, the closest similarity to the Eastern Rites actually is to the installation of a Patriach, who's generally presumed to already be a bishops (as it would have been rare for someone to go from priest to Patriarch without a stop at bishop first).

    Borat could very well be a neo-SSPX priest, and one of those aforementioned presbyters himself, and perhaps also a member of the lavender mafia, thus explaining the LARPing as a female and making a big deal out of wearing a skirt.  :laugh1:

    In either case, it's 100% certain that Borat has some personal vested interest in the position he's promoting and isn't merely following the dictates of reason and logic, which heavily favor those asserting positive doubt.
    I am sorry to chime in here but I just want to set the record straight on the skirt issue.  There was a discussion about women wearing pants. See https://www.cathinfo.com/catholic-living-in-the-modern-world/womens-pants/  On that thread some of the men said that if you wear a pants in any situation then you are a feminist.  Boru works with horses and sometimes might wear pants for very specific things.  She was just commenting on the fact that she does wear a skirt most of the time, even while mowing the lawn.  Unlike guys, women have a tendency to relate everything to everything.  See https://www.cathinfo.com/teen-catholic-hangout/a-tale-of-two-brains/

    I am glad that Boru didn't take your ill-founded statements to heart and respond emotionally, but you guys know me.
    1 Corinthians: Chapter 13 "4 Charity is patient, is kind: charity envieth not, dealeth not perversely; is not puffed up; 5 Is not ambitious, seeketh not her own, is not provoked to anger, thinketh no evil;"

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Universal doubtful intention
    « Reply #46 on: Yesterday at 07:47:14 PM »
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  • The change in the language of the Preface (quoted above) reflects a move from direct and clear signification in the traditional Rite toward indirect and ambiguous signification in the New Rite.

    And you have the "probable opinion"/"positive doubt" issue backwards. There is no doubt at all about the traditional Rite. It is valid. It is not my "probable opinion" that this is the case. It is dogmatically certain. This is what the Church has always taught. I don't have to prove this.

    You are the one holding a "probable opinion" that the Novus Ordo is valid. You think your opinion is probable because, as you say, Jesus would not "leave us orphans" (which is true but you misapply the phrase to this case). The burden of proof that the Novus Ordo is valid is on you. Until you can prove this with a dogmatic statement from the Church, you theory can be nothing more than a "probable opinion."

    The Church says that I don't need to prove my "opinion" that the New Rites are invalid. The fact that they are significantly different from the Traditional Rites casts sufficient, "positive doubt" on the New Rites. I don't need to have certainty about the New Rites. I am required to avoid them simply because they signify something substantially different from the traditional Rites.

    So, in order to follow the requirements of Catholic moral theology, we must ordinarily receive the Sacraments from a minister who is certainly valid (the traditionally-ordained Priest), and only in extraordinary circuмstances should we consider receiving Sacraments from a minister who is only probably valid. 

    But you flip this on its head because of your "leave us orphans" theory. You naively accept that the Church (the true Roman Catholic Church) is identical to the entity infiltrated by Freemasons who inexplicably changed the traditional Rites. You are living in a false reality.

    The Novus Ordo is a test, allowed by God. You are failing that test because of your human attachments and lack of clear reasoning. Please pray about this and ask for God to give you the humility to see the Truth before it is too late.

    Borat continues to deliberate conflate terms, and invert their meaning, as do the SSPX in their overall gaslighting attacks.

    Any kind of prudent doubt suffices to administer conditional ordination, per Canon Law.  That threshold is quite low and excludes merely irrational doubts, and negative doubt.  If a reasonable, intelligent, well educated Catholic priest or bishop concludes merely that, "well, they've monkeyed with the Rites, including the essential form declared by Pope Pius XII, in addition to removing all mention of sacrifice from the Ordination Rite, which Pope Leo XIII taught invalidated the Anglican Rite, and the Rite of Episcopal Consecration is barely recognizable ... so give who these people are, the same ones that bought is everything it is that caused is to break off from the Conciliar Church, let's just say I don't trust these same bad actors not to have vitiated the Rite"

    Ignore the nonsense from SSPX where they conflate the grave sin of repeating the character Sacraments with a conditional administration thereof.  In the latter case, there is no sacrilege, and as long as you have some reasonable ground to conclude that they might be invalid, conditional ordination is at the very least permissible.

    So, as pointed out many times, and ignored by the Troll Borat ...

    Worst case scenario for the ones holding to the positive doubt position, if they're wrong, the bishop has wasted 30 minutes of his time, but, even then, the faithful whose consciences are troubled by the New Rites can be put at ease, and there's zero way that it would be sinful and condemned by God to engage in this practice for that reason alone, especially when there is in fact something there, and not just irrational negative doubt, i.e. the worst case is that you make an error in judgment, which would most certainly be offset by the motive of charity, echoing where St. Paul said that he would refrain from eating meat offered to idols if only to avoid scandalizing the weak.  If even in your great wisdom you consider the faithful to be wrong, as St. Paul did about eating meat, charity alone would require undertaking the conditional ordinations.

    Worst case scenario for the ones holding to the "undoubtedly valid" position?  Faithful receive invalid Sacraments, possible souls lost, and grave damnable sins on the part of those clergy who attempted to force their decision on the consciences of the faithful.  In fact, even if they're RIGHT, they would still be guilty of grave sins against charity by subjecting many faithful souls to troubled consciences.

    So, this debate here is 1000% NO CONTEST in favor of a requirement to perform conditional ordinations.  Period.  There no argument.

    ... unless the entire reason you're taking this position and forcing it on others' consciences is because first and foremost you cannot jeopardize your relationship with the Modernists.  Well, in that case, it's even a graver sin.  Even IF I believed that it was worthwhile to pursue some talks with the Modernists, that's not worth throwing the faithful under the bus.  You can just go to the Modernists and say, "Well, many of the faithful are troubled by the changes.  Take it of leave it.  Feel free to call of talks.  Maybe you shouldn't have messed around with the Rites for no particular reason other than to appease the Protestants."

    Make no mistake that there are infiltrators and Modernist / Masonic / Communist / Jєωιѕн agents driving this agenda, which goes against all common sense, basic reason, and charity ... or else bishop / priests who have been compromised by Epstein operations.


    Offline OABrownson1876

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    Re: Universal doubtful intention
    « Reply #47 on: Yesterday at 08:30:53 PM »
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  • We had a young seventeen-year-old young lady who was just conditionally baptized this last week our traditional chapel.  She says that the custom in Oregon where she is from is to say, "We baptize you..."  Apparently, that is the NO thing out there among some of the priests.   I bet some of the SSPX crowd would chime in, "Don't worry, its valid."   
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